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Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land

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  • Graham Fletcher
    Javier, Are you aware of: http://www.rics.org/downloads/research_reports/land_value.pdf This may be of some interest. Best wishes, Graham ... From: Javier
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 1, 2003
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      Javier,
       
      Are you aware of:
       
       
       
      This may be of some interest.
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Graham
       

      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 9:33 AM
      Subject: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land

      Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
      request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
      special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
      value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
      will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
      literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.

      Javier Pacheco
      ITC UPLA.2 Student
      Enschede, The Netherlands




      The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
      Consult at: http://wTransport.org
      To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
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    • Todd Alexander Litman
      See the report DOES PUBLIC TRANSIT RAISE SITE VALUES AROUND ITS STOPS ENOUGH TO PAY FOR ITSELF (WERE THE VALUE CAPTURED)? by Jeffery J. Smith, posted at our
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 1, 2003
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        See the report "DOES PUBLIC TRANSIT RAISE SITE VALUES AROUND ITS STOPS
        ENOUGH TO PAY FOR ITSELF (WERE THE VALUE CAPTURED)?" by Jeffery J. Smith,
        posted at our website (www.vtpi.org/smith.htm), which summarizes
        considerable literature on the effects of public transit on property
        values. Also see the "Transit Evaluation" (www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm62.htm),
        "Economic Development" (www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm54.htm) and "Land Use
        Evaluation (www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm104.htm) chapters of our Online TDM
        Encyclopedia, which discuss some of the transport, land use and economic
        impacts of public transit.

        Please let me know if you have any questions or comments about this
        information, or if you find anything to add.


        Best wishes,
        -Todd Litman


        At 08:33 AM 6/12/2003 +0000, Javier Pacheco Raguz wrote:
        >Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
        >request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
        >special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
        >value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
        >will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
        >literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.
        >
        >Javier Pacheco
        >ITC UPLA.2 Student
        >Enschede, The Netherlands
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
        >Consult at: http://wTransport.org
        >To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
        >To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        Sincerely,
        Todd Litman, Director
        Victoria Transport Policy Institute
        "Efficiency - Equity - Clarity"
        1250 Rudlin Street
        Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, Canada
        Phone & Fax: 250-360-1560
        Email: litman@...
        Website: http://www.vtpi.org
      • Wetzel Dave
        Javier Right up my street. I ll forward some articles to you and any other person on the World Transport yahoo group who let s me know they re interested.
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 1, 2003
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          Javier
          Right up my street.
          I'll forward some articles to you and any other person on the World
          Transport yahoo group who let's me know they're interested.
          Perhaps some of the friends who I have copied this to will also add relevant
          items for you.

          Dave

          Dave Wetzel
          Vice-Chair
          Transport for London
          42-50 Victoria Street. London.
          SW1H 0TL. UK

          020 7941 4200


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Javier Pacheco Raguz [mailto:jpraguz@...]
          Sent: 12 June 2003 09:33
          To: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land


          Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
          request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
          special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
          value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
          will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
          literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.

          Javier Pacheco
          ITC UPLA.2 Student
          Enschede, The Netherlands




          The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
          Consult at: http://wTransport.org
          To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
          To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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        • Lee Schipper
          I think the issue is the other way around: How much does a given size home cost in a dense neighborhood, in a sprawling neighborhood, in an older development,
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 9, 2003
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            I think the issue is the other way around: How much does a given size
            home cost in a dense neighborhood, in a sprawling neighborhood, in an
            older development, in a newer development, as a function of the location
            of that neighborhood, its local population density, its jobs to housing
            ratio etc? Then, if good transit service is establish, how much do
            housing costs rise (if at all); conversely, how do housing costs vary as
            a function of distance from a good transit line.
            On a very practical basis, 150 sq meters in Georgetown, Washington DC
            costs about twice to three times what it costs i Cleveland Park (two
            long metro stops away) and four times what it costs in Tenley town. The
            latter two actually have metro stops, Georgetown is 300 to 2000 meters
            from the nearest Metro station (buses in DC are a slow burning
            disaster). Housing close in to the suburb of Bethesda, which has good
            Metro and bus service, costs more than housing farther from the main
            metro stop, but how much more.
            Could it simply be that consumers figured out that the farther out you
            go, the more land and home you get for a unit of investment, and, aided
            by US policies that encourage borrowing for home ownership, make a
            tradeoff of a little more in cheap fuel and insurance in exchange for a
            lot more land? Could it also be that car insurance is cheaper in the
            low-density suburbs than it is in the higher density city core (it is)?

            In the end I think we paid $50K extra to be two blocks from Cleveland
            Park Metro; lots of options 500-2000 meters farther away offerred more
            house for less money. Since I cycle to work those extra 2000 meters,
            which would have been a long uphill grind, would have been a real ordeal
            day after day. But the hill I do have to climb is worth it, since I
            could not afford to live in Georgetown (where I rented) and pay around
            $1mn for a large three bedroom home rather than $780K for a much larger
            5bdr home (yes, with the study etc all the home is filled up already). I
            could have lived i the farther burbs for half as much, had a larger lot,
            driven or taken public transport 45 minutes each way, paid to go to a
            gym rather than cycled.. You all get my drift.

            That may be the trade off. Why do the various reports on sprawl in the
            US focus only on transport costs and fuel, but consistently omit all the
            other characteristics AND COSTS of residential location? Life is more
            than one-dimensional, is it not?

            >>> john.holtzclaw@... 08/01/03 05:08PM >>>

            Hi Javier,

            We have information on that in the U.S. on our website,
            http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
            Go to Transportation; then Articles and Research; then Smart Growth --
            As
            Seen From the Air
            or How Compact Neighborhoods Affect Modal Choice







            John Holtzclaw
            415-977-5534
            John.Holtzclaw@...
            sprawl and transportation action -- http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
            This View of Density -- www.sflcv.org/density


            "Javier Pacheco Raguz" <jpraguz@...>

            06/12/2003 01:33 AM



            Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
            request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
            special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
            value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
            will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
            literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.

            Javier Pacheco
            ITC UPLA.2 Student
            Enschede, The Netherland




            ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

            The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
            Consult at: http://wTransport.org
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          • Tramsol@aol.com
            Metroland (1920-1930 London) Glasgow suburban network c 1870 Southern (& LBSC/LSWR pre 1923) electrification - again dominant development ca 1930. Indeed the
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 9, 2003
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              Metroland (1920-1930 London) Glasgow suburban network c 1870 Southern (&
              LBSC/LSWR pre 1923) electrification - again dominant development ca 1930.

              Indeed the effects might even be tracable back to Shillibeers omnibuses,
              expanding the commute catchment for London or fly-boats on the canals of the
              preceding century.

              Dave Holladay
              Glasgow
            • Michael Yeates
              There is also more to this ... using some Australian info. 1. Often the price of a site per se reflects not only the current but also any potential development
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 25, 2003
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                There is also more to this ... using some Australian info.

                1. Often the price of a site per se reflects not only the current but also
                any potential development rights so people may be buying both a current
                utility as well as a future redevelopment option ... ie in the second case,
                gaining a speculative windfall on the greater cost achieveable from the land
                value only without any betterment tax ... incidentally in doing so, the
                complete "cost" of the existing building changes from being an asset to a
                liability or cost simply on that decision whether to redevelop or not.

                2. The other issue is the view that good public transport and walking and
                cycling is not necessarily linked to housing and population density ie that
                good other-than-car alternatives can be provided at suburban densities ... I
                would suggest that the reason that these facilities seem expensive is that
                roads and the real full costs thereof are grossly underpriced eg one is the
                cost impacts of children no longer able or allowed to walk or cycle to
                school but how do we price the social and educational disbenefits? It does
                however require a different type of suburban road network to that
                traditionally designed buy Oz and US traffic and subdivision engineers. So
                what also tends to happen here in some areas is an inverse relationship
                where in some parts of Australia, poorer people pay less for houses at the
                outer edges of the older areas but then pay much more per dollar income per
                household member for car use and have a much poorer or almost useless public
                transport service.

                Cities and urbanising areas are very complex ... and very diverse ... almost
                defying generalised rules... but the "trends" are pretty clear...!

                Paul Mees' book "A Very Public Solution" is worth a read on this topic...

                Michael Yeates
                Brisbane Oz

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Lee Schipper" <SCHIPPER@...>
                To: <WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 4:57 AM
                Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land


                > I think the issue is the other way around: How much does a given size
                > home cost in a dense neighborhood, in a sprawling neighborhood, in an
                > older development, in a newer development, as a function of the location
                > of that neighborhood, its local population density, its jobs to housing
                > ratio etc? Then, if good transit service is establish, how much do
                > housing costs rise (if at all); conversely, how do housing costs vary as
                > a function of distance from a good transit line.
                > On a very practical basis, 150 sq meters in Georgetown, Washington DC
                > costs about twice to three times what it costs i Cleveland Park (two
                > long metro stops away) and four times what it costs in Tenley town. The
                > latter two actually have metro stops, Georgetown is 300 to 2000 meters
                > from the nearest Metro station (buses in DC are a slow burning
                > disaster). Housing close in to the suburb of Bethesda, which has good
                > Metro and bus service, costs more than housing farther from the main
                > metro stop, but how much more.
                > Could it simply be that consumers figured out that the farther out you
                > go, the more land and home you get for a unit of investment, and, aided
                > by US policies that encourage borrowing for home ownership, make a
                > tradeoff of a little more in cheap fuel and insurance in exchange for a
                > lot more land? Could it also be that car insurance is cheaper in the
                > low-density suburbs than it is in the higher density city core (it is)?
                >
                > In the end I think we paid $50K extra to be two blocks from Cleveland
                > Park Metro; lots of options 500-2000 meters farther away offerred more
                > house for less money. Since I cycle to work those extra 2000 meters,
                > which would have been a long uphill grind, would have been a real ordeal
                > day after day. But the hill I do have to climb is worth it, since I
                > could not afford to live in Georgetown (where I rented) and pay around
                > $1mn for a large three bedroom home rather than $780K for a much larger
                > 5bdr home (yes, with the study etc all the home is filled up already). I
                > could have lived i the farther burbs for half as much, had a larger lot,
                > driven or taken public transport 45 minutes each way, paid to go to a
                > gym rather than cycled.. You all get my drift.
                >
                > That may be the trade off. Why do the various reports on sprawl in the
                > US focus only on transport costs and fuel, but consistently omit all the
                > other characteristics AND COSTS of residential location? Life is more
                > than one-dimensional, is it not?
                >
                > >>> john.holtzclaw@... 08/01/03 05:08PM >>>
                >
                > Hi Javier,
                >
                > We have information on that in the U.S. on our website,
                > http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
                > Go to Transportation; then Articles and Research; then Smart Growth --
                > As
                > Seen From the Air
                > or How Compact Neighborhoods Affect Modal Choice
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > John Holtzclaw
                > 415-977-5534
                > John.Holtzclaw@...
                > sprawl and transportation action -- http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
                > This View of Density -- www.sflcv.org/density
                >
                >
                > "Javier Pacheco Raguz" <jpraguz@...>
                >
                > 06/12/2003 01:33 AM
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
                > request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
                > special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
                > value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
                > will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
                > literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.
                >
                > Javier Pacheco
                > ITC UPLA.2 Student
                > Enschede, The Netherland
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >
                > The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
                > Consult at: http://wTransport.org
                > To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
                > To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
                > Consult at: http://wTransport.org
                > To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
                > To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Wetzel Dave
                What you have identified is not the difference in the cost of a home - but the difference in the value of the land on which the home sits. Of course you are
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 27, 2003
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                  What you have identified is not the difference in the cost of a home - but
                  the difference in the value of the land on which the home sits.

                  Of course you are right, transport is not the only factor to give land its
                  value - transport is just one of many influences.

                  However, what we do know is that the individual landowner does not create
                  land value. It is the community's demand for land in a specific location
                  that gives land its value. If Government's collected this location benefit
                  as a levy or a tax on site values, they could pay for their services and
                  reduce taxes on trade and incomes.

                  Let me know if any reader wants more information (appropriate web-sites
                  etc.)

                  Dave

                  Dave Wetzel
                  Vice-chair, TfL.
                  Windsor House, 42-50 Victoria Street.
                  London. SW1H 0TL. UK.
                  Tel 020 7941 4200


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Lee Schipper [mailto:SCHIPPER@...]
                  Sent: 09 August 2003 19:57
                  To: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land


                  I think the issue is the other way around: How much does a given size
                  home cost in a dense neighborhood, in a sprawling neighborhood, in an
                  older development, in a newer development, as a function of the location
                  of that neighborhood, its local population density, its jobs to housing
                  ratio etc? Then, if good transit service is establish, how much do
                  housing costs rise (if at all); conversely, how do housing costs vary as
                  a function of distance from a good transit line.
                  On a very practical basis, 150 sq meters in Georgetown, Washington DC
                  costs about twice to three times what it costs i Cleveland Park (two
                  long metro stops away) and four times what it costs in Tenley town. The
                  latter two actually have metro stops, Georgetown is 300 to 2000 meters
                  from the nearest Metro station (buses in DC are a slow burning
                  disaster). Housing close in to the suburb of Bethesda, which has good
                  Metro and bus service, costs more than housing farther from the main
                  metro stop, but how much more.
                  Could it simply be that consumers figured out that the farther out you
                  go, the more land and home you get for a unit of investment, and, aided
                  by US policies that encourage borrowing for home ownership, make a
                  tradeoff of a little more in cheap fuel and insurance in exchange for a
                  lot more land? Could it also be that car insurance is cheaper in the
                  low-density suburbs than it is in the higher density city core (it is)?

                  In the end I think we paid $50K extra to be two blocks from Cleveland
                  Park Metro; lots of options 500-2000 meters farther away offerred more
                  house for less money. Since I cycle to work those extra 2000 meters,
                  which would have been a long uphill grind, would have been a real ordeal
                  day after day. But the hill I do have to climb is worth it, since I
                  could not afford to live in Georgetown (where I rented) and pay around
                  $1mn for a large three bedroom home rather than $780K for a much larger
                  5bdr home (yes, with the study etc all the home is filled up already). I
                  could have lived i the farther burbs for half as much, had a larger lot,
                  driven or taken public transport 45 minutes each way, paid to go to a
                  gym rather than cycled.. You all get my drift.

                  That may be the trade off. Why do the various reports on sprawl in the
                  US focus only on transport costs and fuel, but consistently omit all the
                  other characteristics AND COSTS of residential location? Life is more
                  than one-dimensional, is it not?

                  >>> john.holtzclaw@... 08/01/03 05:08PM >>>

                  Hi Javier,

                  We have information on that in the U.S. on our website,
                  http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
                  Go to Transportation; then Articles and Research; then Smart Growth --
                  As
                  Seen From the Air
                  or How Compact Neighborhoods Affect Modal Choice







                  John Holtzclaw
                  415-977-5534
                  John.Holtzclaw@...
                  sprawl and transportation action -- http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
                  This View of Density -- www.sflcv.org/density


                  "Javier Pacheco Raguz" <jpraguz@...>

                  06/12/2003 01:33 AM



                  Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
                  request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
                  special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
                  value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
                  will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
                  literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.

                  Javier Pacheco
                  ITC UPLA.2 Student
                  Enschede, The Netherland




                  ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                  The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
                  Consult at: http://wTransport.org
                  To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
                  To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                  The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
                  Consult at: http://wTransport.org
                  To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
                  To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                  ***********************************************************************************
                  The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London hereby exclude any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this email and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.

                  If you have received this email in error please notify postmaster@....

                  This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses.
                  ***********************************************************************************
                • Chris Bradshaw
                  This is a very important topic to discuss here. I think it is a general rule that location costs more housing-wise, but the buyer gets benefits that, at
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 31, 2003
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                    This is a very important topic to discuss here.

                    I think it is a general rule that "location" costs more housing-wise,
                    but the buyer gets benefits that, at least to him, appear to be equal to
                    or better than the higher margin.

                    "Location" refers to both being near that which is desirable, and NOT
                    being near to that which is undesirable. Those marketing the suburbs
                    have always emphasized the latter (crime, street traffic, noise, poor
                    schools, lower-income neighbours), while treating the longer distances
                    to desirable services as being very easy to overcome (owning/using one
                    or more cars).

                    Transit is one of the factors that are part of the positive side of
                    "location," however, one does not want to have to use it for more than a
                    narrow range of trips (e.g., commuting), while needing the full range of
                    services within walking distance (clustered and along a fully walkable
                    street).

                    All of suburbia in our city has transit, but only for those residents
                    limiting their use to commuting (and having regular 9-5 jobs located
                    along the peak-hour routes, wanting to avoid transfers) rely on it.
                    Only those living in these areas unwillingly (youth, live-in help,
                    dependent seniors) will use the off-peak transit service for other kinds
                    of trips.

                    Most New Urbanism development is of this latter category, since they
                    lack internal services and are located too far from where the true urban
                    "fabric" of main streets and mixed uses ends. For that reason, they
                    still have as much yard space given over to the owners' cars, but this
                    space is at the rear, along a laneway, with the house pushed forward to
                    the street.

                    What our industry needs to do is to educate housing consumers (and
                    government officials and developers) to the following:

                    1. Walking is everyone's favourite mode, and the destinations which can
                    be walked to is at the highest level of "location." There is growing
                    awareness that, although driving is seen as superior to transit, it is
                    significantly inferior to walking.

                    2. Housing price is related to transportation costs; the two must be
                    considered as a unit. "Location" reduces the amount of "fleet" the
                    household needs, and the distance each vehicle is driven. The
                    perception (and much of the reality) is that car-ownership is almost as
                    high in high-location areas as poor-location areas (see also next).

                    3. People facing low driving needs cannot, in today's market, buy a
                    "fraction" of a car; they can only buy older cars (I have found,
                    although I have seen no research, that the distance a vehicle is driven
                    is in reverse proportion to its age; with age, it becomes less reliable
                    and less "presentable"; also, with age, the driving costs shift from
                    fixed to variable, gaining some of the costing advantages of
                    carsharing). [One way to offer carsharing to those owning older cars is
                    to ask, "What is better, owning all of a partial car, or owning part of
                    a whole car?"]

                    4. Living in high-location areas requires a smaller house and yard,
                    since there are more nearby communal areas, e.g., parks, churches,
                    schools, coffee shops, bars (cf.: Oldenberg, R. _The Great Good
                    Place_). These provide not only out-of-house social spaces, but the
                    higher density makes sharing things easier. A walkable area can also
                    reduce expenses for health clubs and reduce the time adults spend
                    driving other household members. With carsharing, the "fleet" can be
                    reduced, further reducing the house's need to provide indoor and outdoor
                    amenities and space for vehicles.

                    Ironically, as consumers start getting this point, the first symptom
                    will be that the location-sensitive price differential for housing will
                    actually increase. The second one should be that those in low-location
                    neighbourhoods will organize to "invite in" -- through a neighbourhood
                    plan -- the services and employment they lack. They will need to "tame"
                    their streets to attract the growing number of entrepreneurs who are
                    interested in operating small-scale main-street businesses.

                    Chris Bradshaw
                    Vrtucar, Ottawa
                  • Wetzel Dave
                    Michael - Sorry it s taken me so long to come back to you. I agree with your observations. To summarise: the sale price of a site is dependent on three
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 16, 2003
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                      Michael -
                      Sorry it's taken me so long to come back to you.

                      I agree with your observations.

                      To summarise: the sale price of a site is dependent on three factors:

                      1. The optimum use that the new owner can make of the site.
                      2. The permitted use allowed by the community/planning authority/restrictive
                      covenant etc.
                      3. Any hope value that the seller can add and the purchaser is willing to
                      pay.

                      Improved access (public transport or new roads) adds to 1 above.

                      Thus, landowners are creaming off the location value of their sites which
                      they do nothing to create.

                      If Governments were to tax land values to pay for transport then a virtuous
                      circle is created.
                      The tax would need to be an annual levy on the rental value of each site.
                      The value would be assessed on the optimum permitted use of the site
                      ignoring the value of buildings or improvements.
                      Thus, people receiving the financial benefit of a valuable location make a
                      contribution to the rest of the community.
                      Unlike other taxes, a land value tax is cheap to collect and difficult to
                      avoid.
                      Owners will make better use of their sites and society will avoid urban
                      sprawl.
                      The property cycle will be evened out.

                      Therefor in your second example, the land tax on the owners of land occupied
                      by the poorer people living out of town will be less.
                      However, if a new motorway or mass transit is built, reducing their
                      transport costs, then both the land value, and the land tax would increase.
                      If this location benefit value is not taxed, then landowners will collect
                      the benefit as they increase their rents to poor people after their
                      transport costs have been reduced.

                      Happy to supply more information if required.

                      Dave

                      Dave Wetzel
                      Vice-Chair
                      Transport for London
                      42-50 Victoria Street. London.
                      SW1H 0TL. UK

                      Tel: 020 7941 4200


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Michael Yeates [mailto:michaelm@...]
                      Sent: 25 August 2003 14:07
                      To: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land


                      There is also more to this ... using some Australian info.

                      1. Often the price of a site per se reflects not only the current but also
                      any potential development rights so people may be buying both a current
                      utility as well as a future redevelopment option ... ie in the second case,
                      gaining a speculative windfall on the greater cost achieveable from the land
                      value only without any betterment tax ... incidentally in doing so, the
                      complete "cost" of the existing building changes from being an asset to a
                      liability or cost simply on that decision whether to redevelop or not.

                      2. The other issue is the view that good public transport and walking and
                      cycling is not necessarily linked to housing and population density ie that
                      good other-than-car alternatives can be provided at suburban densities ... I
                      would suggest that the reason that these facilities seem expensive is that
                      roads and the real full costs thereof are grossly underpriced eg one is the
                      cost impacts of children no longer able or allowed to walk or cycle to
                      school but how do we price the social and educational disbenefits? It does
                      however require a different type of suburban road network to that
                      traditionally designed buy Oz and US traffic and subdivision engineers. So
                      what also tends to happen here in some areas is an inverse relationship
                      where in some parts of Australia, poorer people pay less for houses at the
                      outer edges of the older areas but then pay much more per dollar income per
                      household member for car use and have a much poorer or almost useless public
                      transport service.

                      Cities and urbanising areas are very complex ... and very diverse ... almost
                      defying generalised rules... but the "trends" are pretty clear...!

                      Paul Mees' book "A Very Public Solution" is worth a read on this topic...

                      Michael Yeates
                      Brisbane Oz

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Lee Schipper" <SCHIPPER@...>
                      To: <WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 4:57 AM
                      Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land


                      > I think the issue is the other way around: How much does a given size
                      > home cost in a dense neighborhood, in a sprawling neighborhood, in an
                      > older development, in a newer development, as a function of the location
                      > of that neighborhood, its local population density, its jobs to housing
                      > ratio etc? Then, if good transit service is establish, how much do
                      > housing costs rise (if at all); conversely, how do housing costs vary as
                      > a function of distance from a good transit line.
                      > On a very practical basis, 150 sq meters in Georgetown, Washington DC
                      > costs about twice to three times what it costs i Cleveland Park (two
                      > long metro stops away) and four times what it costs in Tenley town. The
                      > latter two actually have metro stops, Georgetown is 300 to 2000 meters
                      > from the nearest Metro station (buses in DC are a slow burning
                      > disaster). Housing close in to the suburb of Bethesda, which has good
                      > Metro and bus service, costs more than housing farther from the main
                      > metro stop, but how much more.
                      > Could it simply be that consumers figured out that the farther out you
                      > go, the more land and home you get for a unit of investment, and, aided
                      > by US policies that encourage borrowing for home ownership, make a
                      > tradeoff of a little more in cheap fuel and insurance in exchange for a
                      > lot more land? Could it also be that car insurance is cheaper in the
                      > low-density suburbs than it is in the higher density city core (it is)?
                      >
                      > In the end I think we paid $50K extra to be two blocks from Cleveland
                      > Park Metro; lots of options 500-2000 meters farther away offerred more
                      > house for less money. Since I cycle to work those extra 2000 meters,
                      > which would have been a long uphill grind, would have been a real ordeal
                      > day after day. But the hill I do have to climb is worth it, since I
                      > could not afford to live in Georgetown (where I rented) and pay around
                      > $1mn for a large three bedroom home rather than $780K for a much larger
                      > 5bdr home (yes, with the study etc all the home is filled up already). I
                      > could have lived i the farther burbs for half as much, had a larger lot,
                      > driven or taken public transport 45 minutes each way, paid to go to a
                      > gym rather than cycled.. You all get my drift.
                      >
                      > That may be the trade off. Why do the various reports on sprawl in the
                      > US focus only on transport costs and fuel, but consistently omit all the
                      > other characteristics AND COSTS of residential location? Life is more
                      > than one-dimensional, is it not?
                      >
                      > >>> john.holtzclaw@... 08/01/03 05:08PM >>>
                      >
                      > Hi Javier,
                      >
                      > We have information on that in the U.S. on our website,
                      > http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
                      > Go to Transportation; then Articles and Research; then Smart Growth --
                      > As
                      > Seen From the Air
                      > or How Compact Neighborhoods Affect Modal Choice
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > John Holtzclaw
                      > 415-977-5534
                      > John.Holtzclaw@...
                      > sprawl and transportation action -- http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
                      > This View of Density -- www.sflcv.org/density
                      >
                      >
                      > "Javier Pacheco Raguz" <jpraguz@...>
                      >
                      > 06/12/2003 01:33 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
                      > request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
                      > special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
                      > value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
                      > will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
                      > literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.
                      >
                      > Javier Pacheco
                      > ITC UPLA.2 Student
                      > Enschede, The Netherland
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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