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Britainand public Transport deregulation

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  • Elaine Fletcher
    To the group, I was happy to see the note from Eric about the possiblity of dedicating a whole issue of the WTPP journal to the overall impacts of the
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 21, 2002
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      To the group,
       
      I was happy to see the note from Eric about the possiblity of dedicating a whole issue of the WTPP  journal to the overall impacts of the deregulation of Public Transport in Great Britain. I know that I've heard very mixed reports about this experiment, but here in the Middle East, the British experience seems to be regarded by bureaucrats as something that has achieved great success, and the Israeli Ministry Transport, for one, is very keen on following the British model. 
       
      I'm afraid that this may be the case in many developing countries, which have become entranced by the magic wand of the marketplace.
       
      Elaine Fletcher
      Jerusalem 
    • John Whitelegg
      Dear Colleagues, Many thanks to Elaine for this. I think it emphasises the need for this special issue. The British experience has produced: record levels of
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 23, 2002
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        Dear Colleagues,
         
        Many thanks to Elaine for this.  I think it emphasises the need for this special issue.  The British experience has produced:
         
        record levels of unreliability and lack of punctuality
        record levels of passenger complaints
        very high rail fares
        a bankrupt and incompetent Railtrack authority
        more rail passengers
        more rail freight
        5 fatal accidents due to poor track, poor signals and poor quality control
        large tax subsidies to private companies (larger than in the days of British Rail)
         
         
         
        Let's see if we can get a special issue together on this.
         
        Any offers of papers, suggestions etc to me, please.
         
         
        very best wishes
         
        John Whitelegg
        Editor
        WTPP
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:45 AM
        Subject: [WorldTransport] Britainand public Transport deregulation

        To the group,
         
        I was happy to see the note from Eric about the possiblity of dedicating a whole issue of the WTPP  journal to the overall impacts of the deregulation of Public Transport in Great Britain. I know that I've heard very mixed reports about this experiment, but here in the Middle East, the British experience seems to be regarded by bureaucrats as something that has achieved great success, and the Israeli Ministry Transport, for one, is very keen on following the British model. 
         
        I'm afraid that this may be the case in many developing countries, which have become entranced by the magic wand of the marketplace.
         
        Elaine Fletcher
        Jerusalem 

        The Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice
        For more information: http://ecoplan.org/wtpp
        To post a message to group: wtpp@egroups.com
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      • patrice.husson@cec.eu.int
        John: Le taux de ponctualit? des CFL (Luxembourg) a ?t? de 92,3 % en 2000 (voir page 22 de http://www.cfl.lu/f/corporate/cfl_rapport_2000.pdf
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 24, 2002
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          John:
           
          Le taux de ponctualité des CFL (Luxembourg) a été de 92,3 % en 2000 (voir page 22 de http://www.cfl.lu/f/corporate/cfl_rapport_2000.pdf).
           
          Please read other interesting facts at http://www.cfl.lu
           
          Britain is maybe not the only experience to consider?
           
          Best,
           
          pach
          -----Original Message-----
          From: John Whitelegg [mailto:ecologic@...]
          Sent: lundi 24 juin 2002 7:32
          To: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: ecoplan.adsl@...
          Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] Britainand public Transport deregulation

          Dear Colleagues,
           
          Many thanks to Elaine for this.  I think it emphasises the need for this special issue.  The British experience has produced:
           
          record levels of unreliability and lack of punctuality
          record levels of passenger complaints
          very high rail fares
          a bankrupt and incompetent Railtrack authority
          more rail passengers
          more rail freight
          5 fatal accidents due to poor track, poor signals and poor quality control
          large tax subsidies to private companies (larger than in the days of British Rail)
           
           
           
          Let's see if we can get a special issue together on this.
           
          Any offers of papers, suggestions etc to me, please.
           
           
          very best wishes
           
          John Whitelegg
          Editor
          WTPP
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:45 AM
          Subject: [WorldTransport] Britainand public Transport deregulation

          To the group,
           
          I was happy to see the note from Eric about the possiblity of dedicating a whole issue of the WTPP  journal to the overall impacts of the deregulation of Public Transport in Great Britain. I know that I've heard very mixed reports about this experiment, but here in the Middle East, the British experience seems to be regarded by bureaucrats as something that has achieved great success, and the Israeli Ministry Transport, for one, is very keen on following the British model. 
           
          I'm afraid that this may be the case in many developing countries, which have become entranced by the magic wand of the marketplace.
           
          Elaine Fletcher
          Jerusalem 

          The Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice
          For more information: http://ecoplan.org/wtpp
          To post a message to group: wtpp@egroups.com
          To subscribe:  wtpp-subscribe@egroups.com 
          To unsubscribe:  wtpp-unsubscribe@egroups.com 



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

          The Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice
          For more information: http://ecoplan.org/wtpp
          To post a message to group: wtpp@egroups.com
          To subscribe:  wtpp-subscribe@egroups.com 
          To unsubscribe:  wtpp-unsubscribe@egroups.com 



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        • Peter Markusson
          Hi all! ... Sweden has chosen another way, dividing the railway system into three different parts. We have kept the maintanance and ownership, and security of
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 24, 2002
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            Hi all!

            måndagen den 24 juni 2002 kl 07.32 skrev John Whitelegg:

            > Dear Colleagues,
            >  
            > Many thanks to Elaine for this.  I think it emphasises the need for this
            > special issue.  The British experience has produced:
            >  
            > record levels of unreliability and lack of punctuality
            > record levels of passenger complaints
            > very high rail fares
            > a bankrupt and incompetent Railtrack authority
            > more rail passengers
            > more rail freight
            > 5 fatal accidents due to poor track, poor signals and poor quality control
            > large tax subsidies to private companies (larger than in the days of
            > British Rail)

            Sweden has chosen another way, dividing the railway system into three
            different parts. We have kept the maintanance and ownership, and security
            of the tracks in the hands of the State, but opened up the tracks for
            competition. Thus far, all's been well. The old railway company, 'State
            Railways', SJ, dominates the market, but is doing so in fierce competition
            with several private companies. The 'Svealand track' has increased the
            passenger volume sixfold the latest years after a major upgrade. The State
            keeps control of security on the tracks via the 'Railway inspection'. The
            system is under debate at the moment, since SJ still is dominating, and
            the security could be better. The tracks are planned, maintained and built
            by 'Banverket', via lots of private undertakers.

            I think it will be possible to find someone from 'Rail Forum Sweden' to
            write about all this. Should I ask them, or do anyone of you have contacts
            there as well?


            Med vänlig hälsning,
            Peter Markusson

            -----------------------------
            Ekokompaniet
            Rådgivning - Bildelning - Miljö
            (Advice - Carsharing - Environment)

            Hemsidor/Homepages:
            http://www.ekokompaniet.se/
            http://www.bildelning.nu/

            Tel: +46 (0)31 775 26 36

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          • Wendell Cox
            John... Tried to get this through to you privately, but cannot get through. Look forward to this issue and would hope to submit an article that would offer a
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 24, 2002
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              John...
               
              Tried to get this through to you privately, but cannot get through.
               
              Look forward to this issue and would hope to submit an article that would offer a somewhat different perspective. Please let me know deadlines and requirements.
               
              Best regards,
              Wendell Cox
              Member,
              Amtrak Reform Council
               
              DEMOGRAPHIA (Wendell Cox Consultancy)
              +1.618.632.8507 Fax +1.810.821.8134
              "People should have the freedom to live and work where and how they like."
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:32 AM
              Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] Britainand public Transport deregulation

              Dear Colleagues,
               
              Many thanks to Elaine for this.  I think it emphasises the need for this special issue.  The British experience has produced:
               
              record levels of unreliability and lack of punctuality
              record levels of passenger complaints
              very high rail fares
              a bankrupt and incompetent Railtrack authority
              more rail passengers
              more rail freight
              5 fatal accidents due to poor track, poor signals and poor quality control
              large tax subsidies to private companies (larger than in the days of British Rail)
               
               
               
              Let's see if we can get a special issue together on this.
               
              Any offers of papers, suggestions etc to me, please.
               
               
              very best wishes
               
              John Whitelegg
              Editor
              WTPP
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:45 AM
              Subject: [WorldTransport] Britainand public Transport deregulation

              To the group,
               
              I was happy to see the note from Eric about the possiblity of dedicating a whole issue of the WTPP  journal to the overall impacts of the deregulation of Public Transport in Great Britain. I know that I've heard very mixed reports about this experiment, but here in the Middle East, the British experience seems to be regarded by bureaucrats as something that has achieved great success, and the Israeli Ministry Transport, for one, is very keen on following the British model. 
               
              I'm afraid that this may be the case in many developing countries, which have become entranced by the magic wand of the marketplace.
               
              Elaine Fletcher
              Jerusalem 

              The Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice
              For more information: http://ecoplan.org/wtpp
              To post a message to group: wtpp@egroups.com
              To subscribe:  wtpp-subscribe@egroups.com 
              To unsubscribe:  wtpp-unsubscribe@egroups.com 



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

              The Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice
              For more information: http://ecoplan.org/wtpp
              To post a message to group: wtpp@egroups.com
              To subscribe:  wtpp-subscribe@egroups.com 
              To unsubscribe:  wtpp-unsubscribe@egroups.com 



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Chris Zegras
              Dear all, Of course, this discussion echoes widely here in the US, with the Amtrak crisis at boiling point... If the focus is, as originally posted, on the
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 24, 2002
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                Dear all,

                Of course, this discussion echoes widely here in the US, with the Amtrak
                crisis at boiling point...

                If the focus is, as originally posted, on the overall experiences with
                Deregulation of Public Transport, then I would like to support the idea
                that viewing the British Experience in International perspective is
                particularly important. This is, perhaps, most important in the developing
                country context, where, as Elaine points out, deregulation/privatization is
                a major policy thrust and where several good, bad, and
                "as-yet-undetermined" examples exist.

                Regards,
                Chris Zegras


                At 10:29 AM 6/24/2002 +0200, patrice.husson@... wrote:
                >John:
                >
                >Le taux de ponctualité des CFL (Luxembourg) a été de 92,3 % en 2000 (voir
                >page 22 de
                ><http://www.cfl.lu/f/corporate/cfl_rapport_2000.pdf>http://www.cfl.lu/f/corporate/cfl_rapport_2000.pdf).
                >
                >
                >Please read other interesting facts at <http://www.cfl.lu>http://www.cfl.lu
                >
                >Britain is maybe not the only experience to consider?
                >
                >Best,
                >
                >pach
                >-----Original Message-----
                >From: John Whitelegg [mailto:ecologic@...]
                >Sent: lundi 24 juin 2002 7:32
                >To: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
                >Cc: ecoplan.adsl@...
                >Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] Britainand public Transport deregulation
                >Dear Colleagues,
                >
                >Many thanks to Elaine for this. I think it emphasises the need for this
                >special issue. The British experience has produced:
                >
                >record levels of unreliability and lack of punctuality
                >record levels of passenger complaints
                >very high rail fares
                >a bankrupt and incompetent Railtrack authority
                >more rail passengers
                >more rail freight
                >5 fatal accidents due to poor track, poor signals and poor quality control
                >large tax subsidies to private companies (larger than in the days of
                >British Rail)
                >
                >
                >
                >Let's see if we can get a special issue together on this.
                >
                >Any offers of papers, suggestions etc to me, please.
                >
                >
                >very best wishes
                >
                >John Whitelegg
                >Editor
                >WTPP
                >----- Original Message -----
                >From: <mailto:Fletch@...>Elaine Fletcher
                >To: <mailto:WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com>WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
                >Cc: <mailto:ecoplan.adsl@...>ecoplan.adsl@...
                >Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:45 AM
                >Subject: [WorldTransport] Britainand public Transport deregulation
                >
                >To the group,
                >
                >I was happy to see the note from Eric about the possiblity of dedicating a
                >whole issue of the WTPP journal to the overall impacts of the
                >deregulation of Public Transport in Great Britain. I know that I've heard
                >very mixed reports about this experiment, but here in the Middle East, the
                >British experience seems to be regarded by bureaucrats as something that
                >has achieved great success, and the Israeli Ministry Transport, for one,
                >is very keen on following the British model.
                >
                >I'm afraid that this may be the case in many developing countries, which
                >have become entranced by the magic wand of the marketplace.
                >
                >Elaine Fletcher
                >Jerusalem
                >
                >The Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice
                >For more information: <http://ecoplan.org/wtpp>http://ecoplan.org/wtpp
                >To post a message to group: wtpp@egroups.com
                >To subscribe: wtpp-subscribe@egroups.com
                >To unsubscribe: wtpp-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                >The Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice
                >For more information: <http://ecoplan.org/wtpp>http://ecoplan.org/wtpp
                >To post a message to group: wtpp@egroups.com
                >To subscribe: wtpp-subscribe@egroups.com
                >To unsubscribe: wtpp-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                >The Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice
                >For more information: <http://ecoplan.org/wtpp>http://ecoplan.org/wtpp
                >To post a message to group: wtpp@egroups.com
                >To subscribe: wtpp-subscribe@egroups.com
                >To unsubscribe: wtpp-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                --------------------------------------------------
                Christopher Zegras
                Research Associate
                MIT * Laboratory for Energy & the Environment * Room E40-468
                1 Amherst Street * Cambridge, MA 02139
                Tel: 617 258 6084 * Fax: 617 253 8013
              • tonyvickers@cix.co.uk
                I would be very sceptical about rosy reports of British transport deregulation. There has been a huge increase in passengers numbers on commuter trains but
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 26, 2002
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                  I would be very sceptical about rosy reports of British transport
                  deregulation. There has been a huge increase in passengers numbers on
                  commuter trains but that is more to do with restrictions on road building
                  and shortage of affordable housing in south-east England.

                  If you asked most ordinary people whether deregulation had been a success,
                  I'm pretty sure they's say 'No Way!'.

                  Tony Vickers
                • kt.freeman
                  Hello John - The newly created SW Passenger Transport Users Forum stared bus competition in the face recently on a fact finding mission to OFT. The attached
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 2, 2002
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                    Hello John -
                     
                    The newly created SW Passenger Transport Users' Forum stared bus competition in the face recently on a fact finding mission to OFT.  The attached are my notes to Stephen Joseph.  This was not intended as presentatition of evidence of where it is going wrong but rather understanding the philosophy/dogma better behind the mess.
                     
                    Also attached are Stephen's notes on reform of the industry arising from a number of regional TAR efforts to find a platform - a theme that might get somewhere at last.  I think a very wide alliance might grow out of this.
                     
                    The topic is well overdue.
                     
                    Best wishes 
                     
                    Kate
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 6:32 AM
                    Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] Britainand public Transport deregulation

                    Dear Colleagues,
                     
                    Many thanks to Elaine for this.  I think it emphasises the need for this special issue.  The British experience has produced:
                     
                    record levels of unreliability and lack of punctuality
                    record levels of passenger complaints
                    very high rail fares
                    a bankrupt and incompetent Railtrack authority
                    more rail passengers
                    more rail freight
                    5 fatal accidents due to poor track, poor signals and poor quality control
                    large tax subsidies to private companies (larger than in the days of British Rail)
                     
                     
                     
                    Let's see if we can get a special issue together on this.
                     
                    Any offers of papers, suggestions etc to me, please.
                     
                     
                    very best wishes
                     
                    John Whitelegg
                    Editor
                    WTPP
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:45 AM
                    Subject: [WorldTransport] Britainand public Transport deregulation

                    To the group,
                     
                    I was happy to see the note from Eric about the possiblity of dedicating a whole issue of the WTPP  journal to the overall impacts of the deregulation of Public Transport in Great Britain. I know that I've heard very mixed reports about this experiment, but here in the Middle East, the British experience seems to be regarded by bureaucrats as something that has achieved great success, and the Israeli Ministry Transport, for one, is very keen on following the British model. 
                     
                    I'm afraid that this may be the case in many developing countries, which have become entranced by the magic wand of the marketplace.
                     
                    Elaine Fletcher
                    Jerusalem 

                    The Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice
                    For more information: http://ecoplan.org/wtpp
                    To post a message to group: wtpp@egroups.com
                    To subscribe:  wtpp-subscribe@egroups.com 
                    To unsubscribe:  wtpp-unsubscribe@egroups.com 



                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                    The Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice
                    For more information: http://ecoplan.org/wtpp
                    To post a message to group: wtpp@egroups.com
                    To subscribe:  wtpp-subscribe@egroups.com 
                    To unsubscribe:  wtpp-unsubscribe@egroups.com 



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                  • Eric Britton
                    Paris, Tuesday, July 02, 2002 Dear Friends, It s very good indeed to see such a range of ideas and positions coming out of the wtpp woodwork on this, and it is
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jul 2, 2002
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                      Paris, Tuesday, July 02, 2002

                       

                      Dear Friends,

                       

                      It’s very good indeed to see such a range of ideas and positions coming out of the wtpp woodwork on this, and it is beginning to look like we will have the stuff of a major special edition on the topic.  One small wrinkle that might be important will be to ensure that while we may want to take Britain as our main straw person on this, that at the end of the day perhaps no more than half the content should be aimed at your blessed plot, your earth, your realm, your… It’s my guess that things become real interesting when other country experiences and lessons are melded in, so that we can then stand back and say with some authority and perspective what it is we may then have to say.

                       

                      It should also be fun (my position) if we stand back and let one or two of the folks who think that ‘lightly fettered market competition’ is the way to go also have their say.  Let’s give them an opportunity tell us about the successes and the right way to do this.

                       

                      One quick point though, when it comes to buses, if I may (and rail to while I’m at it).  I must confess that I always get a little antsy when the city transportation discussion is phrased in terms that suggest that the only choice is between the poles of a binary universe, with good old (or bad old, depending on your position in all this) cars at one end, and then standing there sullenly at the other what might possibly from now on be known as GUT (Group Unrapid Transit), by which I mean stuff that we expect second class citizens (no more honest term for it) to slog over and then stand and wait (to be repeated at the other end of the slog).  After all we are already a big bite into the new century and there is a huge armory of technologies and enterprise arrangements that we could be inventing and bringing on line to provide truly first class non-private car transport.  After all, moving people and goods in and around cities is above all a question of logistics.  And logistics is something that the 21st century is really very good at.  So all we need to do is start to act our Age, and in the face of our inventiveness a lot of these barriers and problems can be broken down.

                       

                      But that of course is an issue for another day (for another Issue, actually).  Now on to the topic that we are beginning to define in these exchanges, and for which I hope that we can shortly begin to scratch out a list of topics, authors, and perhaps ever a brave and able Guest Editor to run the whole show. 

                       

                      Perhaps it will be a good moment now to suggest that future correspondence of detail on this topic be directed to our editor in chief, John Whitelegg at ecologic@..., with if possible a copy to me at eric.britton@....  We can then keep the list apprised of progress at key intervals.  Which should prove very interesting indeed.

                       

                      Eric Britton

                       

                      (PS. If the above does not read quite like proper English, it is because it has been translated directly from the original French.  Sorry.)

                       

                      The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice

                      The Electronic Edition is at http://wTransport.org

                       

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