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178Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land

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  • Michael Yeates
    Aug 25, 2003
      There is also more to this ... using some Australian info.

      1. Often the price of a site per se reflects not only the current but also
      any potential development rights so people may be buying both a current
      utility as well as a future redevelopment option ... ie in the second case,
      gaining a speculative windfall on the greater cost achieveable from the land
      value only without any betterment tax ... incidentally in doing so, the
      complete "cost" of the existing building changes from being an asset to a
      liability or cost simply on that decision whether to redevelop or not.

      2. The other issue is the view that good public transport and walking and
      cycling is not necessarily linked to housing and population density ie that
      good other-than-car alternatives can be provided at suburban densities ... I
      would suggest that the reason that these facilities seem expensive is that
      roads and the real full costs thereof are grossly underpriced eg one is the
      cost impacts of children no longer able or allowed to walk or cycle to
      school but how do we price the social and educational disbenefits? It does
      however require a different type of suburban road network to that
      traditionally designed buy Oz and US traffic and subdivision engineers. So
      what also tends to happen here in some areas is an inverse relationship
      where in some parts of Australia, poorer people pay less for houses at the
      outer edges of the older areas but then pay much more per dollar income per
      household member for car use and have a much poorer or almost useless public
      transport service.

      Cities and urbanising areas are very complex ... and very diverse ... almost
      defying generalised rules... but the "trends" are pretty clear...!

      Paul Mees' book "A Very Public Solution" is worth a read on this topic...

      Michael Yeates
      Brisbane Oz

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Lee Schipper" <SCHIPPER@...>
      To: <WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 4:57 AM
      Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land


      > I think the issue is the other way around: How much does a given size
      > home cost in a dense neighborhood, in a sprawling neighborhood, in an
      > older development, in a newer development, as a function of the location
      > of that neighborhood, its local population density, its jobs to housing
      > ratio etc? Then, if good transit service is establish, how much do
      > housing costs rise (if at all); conversely, how do housing costs vary as
      > a function of distance from a good transit line.
      > On a very practical basis, 150 sq meters in Georgetown, Washington DC
      > costs about twice to three times what it costs i Cleveland Park (two
      > long metro stops away) and four times what it costs in Tenley town. The
      > latter two actually have metro stops, Georgetown is 300 to 2000 meters
      > from the nearest Metro station (buses in DC are a slow burning
      > disaster). Housing close in to the suburb of Bethesda, which has good
      > Metro and bus service, costs more than housing farther from the main
      > metro stop, but how much more.
      > Could it simply be that consumers figured out that the farther out you
      > go, the more land and home you get for a unit of investment, and, aided
      > by US policies that encourage borrowing for home ownership, make a
      > tradeoff of a little more in cheap fuel and insurance in exchange for a
      > lot more land? Could it also be that car insurance is cheaper in the
      > low-density suburbs than it is in the higher density city core (it is)?
      >
      > In the end I think we paid $50K extra to be two blocks from Cleveland
      > Park Metro; lots of options 500-2000 meters farther away offerred more
      > house for less money. Since I cycle to work those extra 2000 meters,
      > which would have been a long uphill grind, would have been a real ordeal
      > day after day. But the hill I do have to climb is worth it, since I
      > could not afford to live in Georgetown (where I rented) and pay around
      > $1mn for a large three bedroom home rather than $780K for a much larger
      > 5bdr home (yes, with the study etc all the home is filled up already). I
      > could have lived i the farther burbs for half as much, had a larger lot,
      > driven or taken public transport 45 minutes each way, paid to go to a
      > gym rather than cycled.. You all get my drift.
      >
      > That may be the trade off. Why do the various reports on sprawl in the
      > US focus only on transport costs and fuel, but consistently omit all the
      > other characteristics AND COSTS of residential location? Life is more
      > than one-dimensional, is it not?
      >
      > >>> john.holtzclaw@... 08/01/03 05:08PM >>>
      >
      > Hi Javier,
      >
      > We have information on that in the U.S. on our website,
      > http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
      > Go to Transportation; then Articles and Research; then Smart Growth --
      > As
      > Seen From the Air
      > or How Compact Neighborhoods Affect Modal Choice
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > John Holtzclaw
      > 415-977-5534
      > John.Holtzclaw@...
      > sprawl and transportation action -- http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
      > This View of Density -- www.sflcv.org/density
      >
      >
      > "Javier Pacheco Raguz" <jpraguz@...>
      >
      > 06/12/2003 01:33 AM
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
      > request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
      > special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
      > value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
      > will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
      > literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.
      >
      > Javier Pacheco
      > ITC UPLA.2 Student
      > Enschede, The Netherland
      >
      >
      >
      >
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