Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license

Expand Messages
  • Gary Shepherd
    Hi My understanding is that marriage licenses (or certificates) were originally issued (at least in the West) by the Catholic Church to declare that a marriage
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 7, 2010
    • 0 Attachment

      Hi

      My understanding is that marriage licenses (or certificates) were originally issued (at least in the West) by the Catholic Church to declare that a marriage was valid by Canon law. Marriage itself was a contract entered into by two people, or more likely two families, to provide for ownership and inheritance of property. Throughout most of history, nobody had a marriage license, and many ordinary people did not even have a ceremony. But when titles or property was at stake, there needed to be some way to distinguish between the legitimate heirs and the bastards.

       

      With the rise of secular government and the separation of church and state, the government began to take over many of the functions traditionally performed by the church, and validating marriage was one of them. There are a lot of reasons proposed why the government should issue such licenses, and it is a controversial issue. For good or ill, in the U.S. at least, most people accept that a marriage is only valid if approved by the government. As Archie Bunker once said, “God ain’t listening if you don’t got the license.”

       

      On the very basic level, though, a marriage is still a contract between two people, and the government’s involvement is simply to certify that contract has taken place, and provide a set of regulations for how the contract will be dissolved, should that become necessary.

       

      World Peace and Unity,
      Gary

       

       

      From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Louis ...
      Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 11:25 PM
      To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license

       

       

      This is totally irrelevant for the following reasons: Marriage licenses are SOLELY for those who wish to apply for government benefits.
      Please, please, PLEASE explain what happens when someone in America BREEDS with someone else and they don't get the "marriage license". Please explain that.
      The didn't get a "marriage license" yet they still live as "husband and wife".
      So what happens to all those "bloods tests"?
      Will the "Marriage Police" come and get me, or anyone else, who decides to live with his girlfriend, make babies, etc..????????????????

      I truly wish you people would STOP relying on the "governments" like the government is a god.

      All this "World Citizen" stuff will NEVER WORK as long as you people keep using governments, not only as crutches, but as SUPERIOR TO YOU.





      --- On Tue, 11/30/10, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:


      From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
      Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license
      To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2010, 6:05 PM

       

      The blood tests have been required in the US for many years as STD reached an all time high around World War One... Before that there was a huge surge during the American Civil War.  I think perhaps Canada and Australia also do it.

      Yes there are many diseases including Herpes and Hepatitus that can be passed on to fetuses during pregnancy. 

      here is a nice overview

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venereal_disease

      Many times individuals have STD and are unaware.. thinking the symptoms are due to something else.  Many people in the US seldom if ever see a doctor because of the high cost of health care.  Many rural people treat themselves with a variety of remedies when they become sick and only go to a hospital or doctor if last resort.

      So this pre marriage blood test was not to prosecute people but to screen and require treatment prior to marriage.

      Andrew



      --- On Tue, 11/23/10, ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:


      From: ro-esp <ro-esp@...>
      Subject: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license
      To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, November 23, 2010, 3:44 PM

       

      [new thread for clarity in the archive]

      Andres E said:

      > The marriage license is issued to confirm that all the blood tests
      > have been done and > the couple is not a carrier of sexually
      > transmitted diseases which will cause [cost?] > the government
      > money if they bear children with related problems.

      Blood tests? Is this a typical USA-thing? And are there sexually
      transmitted diseases that
      are passed from parent to child (besides aids)?

      I don't think these things apply to the dutch situation. Anyone old
      enough can marry anyone who isn't too closely related (=closer than
      full cousins), with a mandatory period called "ondertrouw" of at least
      six weeks (if I remember correctly) before the marriage itself

      As to "cost the government money"...well, the government doesn't have
      money of it's own, it has taxes from the people. In theory it can
      make rules to prevent tax-spending, but how far can/should it go?
      Should certain groups be excluded from making children? Which ones?
      Slippery slope as far as I can see....

      groetjes, Ronaldo

      --
      http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net

       

    • Gary Shepherd
      Hi There exists such a multiplicity of forms of marriage around the world that I think a world government would be very wise to just ignore the whole issue,
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 7, 2010
      • 0 Attachment

        Hi

        There exists such a multiplicity of forms of marriage around the world that I think a world government would be very wise to just ignore the whole issue, and let people do what they want. Unfortunately, wisdom is a rare commodity.

         

        World Peace and Unity,
        Gary

         

        From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ro-esp
        Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 12:21 PM
        To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license

         

         

        now we're talking marriage anyway...

        Here in the netherlands, the "default" way of marrying is called
        "communion of goods" (not sure about the translation), which means
        that everything the both own seperately, becomes commonly owned by
        both. Some say the netherlands is the only country to arrange it like
        that. Some 70% of our marriages are part of this category.

        The alternative(s) are called "under marital conditions", according to
        filmsubtitles the american equivalent is "prenuptual agreement".
        Unfortunately those require the services of
        a notary (?), which will cost a few hundred euro.

        At this moment, dutch parliament is discussing whether "marital
        conditions" should become the default, given that many women now have
        jobs and income for themselves, and people don't like it when half of
        an inheritance goes to a spouse, especially if it's one they're trying
        to divorce from....

        groetjes, Ronaldo

        --
        http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net

      • ro-esp
        louis.ny2001@yahoo.com sendis: . ... I wouldn t know about the USA, but here in NL, a child born outside of wedlock is just a child like any other. The
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 14, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          louis.ny2001@... sendis:

          .
          > Please, please, PLEASE explain what happens when someone in America
          > BREEDS with someone else and they don't get the "marriage license".
          > Please explain that.

          I wouldn't know about the USA, but here in NL, a child born outside of
          wedlock is just a child like any other. The parents have to report the
          birth to the municipality.
          If the biological mother is married, her husband automatically becomes
          the legal father
          (whether he generated the child or not). If the mother is not married,
          the biological
          (or maybe not) father can do some paperwork to get fathership
          acknowledged (including custody, inheriting rights etc)


          > --- On Tue, 11/30/10, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:

          > The blood tests have been required in the US for many years as STD
          > reached an all time > high around World War One...

          yeah, having bullets flying around your head seems to make people
          horny, and indifferent

          > Before that there was a huge surge during the American Civil War.  I
          > think perhaps > Canada and Australia also do it.


          Maybe i'm being totally naive here, but wouldn't it be more efficient
          to test *everyone*,
          or at least everyone who is planning to get sexually active, rather
          than just those who plan on getting married?


          > Yes there are many diseases including Herpes and Hepatitis that can
          > be passed on to fetuses during pregnancy. 
          >
          > here is a nice overview
          >
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venereal_disease

          I'll look into that


          > Many times individuals have STD and are unaware..

          I've heard that before,and I see no reason to not believe it

          > thinking the symptoms
          > are due to something else.  Many people in the US seldom if ever see a
          > doctor because of the high cost of health care. 

          Even if they would see one regularly there'd be no guarantee...
          someone I know was misdiagnosed several times before they found out it
          was tuberculosis


          > So this pre marriage blood test was not to prosecute people but to
          > screen and require treatment prior to marriage.

          Still it seems like discrimination or even puritanism to limit the
          screening to those who are about to marry. As if it were allright for
          diseases to spread among those who do not marry...

          groetjes, Ronaldo




          --
          http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net
        • Andres Espino
          In America there are quite a few people who live together and have children without marriage.  Some did not even report the birth to the government if they
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 17, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            In America there are quite a few people who live together and have children without marriage.  Some did not even report the birth to the government if they were illegal because years ago parents were deported and the child being American was sometimes placed in foster care.  This no longer happens like the 1940's and so illegals want to declare the birth so as to secure their right to live in the USA with the child.  having a baby is a 'back door method' some illegals use to secure their right to remain in the USA.  This is one thing most Americans object to about illegal immigrants.

            A few very strict states have fined people who have children without marriage, under old 'adultery laws', but it is no longer common. 

            The blood test thing to get a license is really to protect the child.  Many drug users and those with HIV have children sick, deformed or infected at birth and whose care costs local government a lot of money.  The idea was to discover and treat the parents before this happens.  In most cases it works. 

            It also prevents deformities in children by people have children with close relatives through incest.  There are rural areas where brothers and sisters have married and have children and marriage between cousins is common and fathers marry daughters and sons marry mothers.  This is usually not approved of even in developing countries and so marriage laws are to prevent this for the health and good of the offspring.


            Andres


            --- On Tue, 12/14/10, ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:

            From: ro-esp <ro-esp@...>
            Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license
            To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 3:36 PM

             

            louis.ny2001@... sendis:

            .
            > Please, please, PLEASE explain what happens when someone in America
            > BREEDS with someone else and they don't get the "marriage license".
            > Please explain that.

            I wouldn't know about the USA, but here in NL, a child born outside of
            wedlock is just a child like any other. The parents have to report the
            birth to the municipality.
            If the biological mother is married, her husband automatically becomes
            the legal father
            (whether he generated the child or not). If the mother is not married,
            the biological
            (or maybe not) father can do some paperwork to get fathership
            acknowledged (including custody, inheriting rights etc)

            > --- On Tue, 11/30/10, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:

            > The blood tests have been required in the US for many years as STD
            > reached an all time > high around World War One...

            yeah, having bullets flying around your head seems to make people
            horny, and indifferent

            > Before that there was a huge surge during the American Civil War.  I
            > think perhaps > Canada and Australia also do it.

            Maybe i'm being totally naive here, but wouldn't it be more efficient
            to test *everyone*,
            or at least everyone who is planning to get sexually active, rather
            than just those who plan on getting married?

            > Yes there are many diseases including Herpes and Hepatitis that can
            > be passed on to fetuses during pregnancy. 
            >
            > here is a nice overview
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venereal_disease

            I'll look into that

            > Many times individuals have STD and are unaware..

            I've heard that before,and I see no reason to not believe it

            > thinking the symptoms
            > are due to something else.  Many people in the US seldom if ever see a
            > doctor because of the high cost of health care. 

            Even if they would see one regularly there'd be no guarantee...
            someone I know was misdiagnosed several times before they found out it
            was tuberculosis

            > So this pre marriage blood test was not to prosecute people but to
            > screen and require treatment prior to marriage.

            Still it seems like discrimination or even puritanism to limit the
            screening to those who are about to marry. As if it were allright for
            diseases to spread among those who do not marry...

            groetjes, Ronaldo

            --
            http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net


          • Joseph Toman
            A mother does not have to do anything. Only what she thinks in her brain that she has to do. Because of brainwashing she does what she thinks she has to do.
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 18, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              A mother does not have to do anything. Only what she thinks in her brain that she has to do.   Because of brainwashing she does what she thinks she has to do.  In America a child born is usually in a HOSPITAL.  With a DOC tor who is docking the birth [of a ship] child INTO the corporate beast system-- a human resourse and SURITY for the national debt.  If you understand all that then you know how we all have been duped. Redemption is an answer.


              From: ro-esp <ro-esp@...>
              To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 1:36:21 PM
              Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license

               

              louis.ny2001@... sendis:

              .

              > Please, please, PLEASE explain what happens when someone in America
              > BREEDS with someone else and they don't get the "marriage license".
              > Please explain that.

              I wouldn't know about the USA, but here in NL, a child born outside of
              wedlock is just a child like any other. The parents have to report the
              birth to the municipality.
              If the biological mother is married, her husband automatically becomes
              the legal father
              (whether he generated the child or not). If the mother is not married,
              the biological
              (or maybe not) father can do some paperwork to get fathership
              acknowledged (including custody, inheriting rights etc)

              > --- On Tue, 11/30/10, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:

              > The blood tests have been required in the US for many years as STD
              > reached an all time > high around World War One...

              yeah, having bullets flying around your head seems to make people
              horny, and indifferent

              > Before that there was a huge surge during the American Civil War.  I
              > think perhaps > Canada and Australia also do it.

              Maybe i'm being totally naive here, but wouldn't it be more efficient
              to test *everyone*,
              or at least everyone who is planning to get sexually active, rather
              than just those who plan on getting married?

              > Yes there are many diseases including Herpes and Hepatitis that can
              > be passed on to fetuses during pregnancy. 
              >
              > here is a nice overview
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venereal_disease

              I'll look into that

              > Many times individuals have STD and are unaware..

              I've heard that before,and I see no reason to not believe it

              > thinking the symptoms
              > are due to something else.  Many people in the US seldom if ever see a
              > doctor because of the high cost of health care. 

              Even if they would see one regularly there'd be no guarantee...
              someone I know was misdiagnosed several times before they found out it
              was tuberculosis

              > So this pre marriage blood test was not to prosecute people but to
              > screen and require treatment prior to marriage.

              Still it seems like discrimination or even puritanism to limit the
              screening to those who are about to marry. As if it were allright for
              diseases to spread among those who do not marry...

              groetjes, Ronaldo

              --
              http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net


            • Louis ...
              A marriage license is only a contract with the government to receive benefits . That s all. Nothing more and nothing less. As far as illegals gaining entry to
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 21, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                A marriage license is only a contract with the government to receive "benefits". That's all. Nothing more and nothing less.
                As far as illegals gaining entry to citizenship here in America via a "back door" (coming here and having a kid and then thinking the government won't kick them out) is a fallacy and an illusion. It DOESN'T work that way. If the mother isn't a citizen then the kid is NOT a citizen either simply because of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution.
                You people, as many Americans also, think for some reason that simply being born here automatically makes that person a citizen.
                IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.
                Please read the 14th Amendment (it's on U.S. citizenship) very carefully.
                I am including an attachment from a Congressional debate concerning U.S. Citizenship by Birth, and its states, point by point, that you are NOT a U.S. Citizen simply because you may have been born here. They have stated over and over again that BEING BORN HERE does NOT make you a Citizen.
                The reason the government often "looks the other way" for someone born here even though their parents were illegals is simple: If you are WHITE, especially from Northern Europe, since the government here has immigration quotas and favors the Northern Europeans.
                It used to be that Pollacks, Russians, Italians, Greeks, Irish, and several others weren't allowed to emigrate here as much as other Europeans.
                And now with the "Central and South American Problem" the U.S. government is really using this case-law I've attached to kick out any illegal they want even though their kids may have been "born here". They'll kick out the kids as well. They've done it quite a few times within these past few years alone to the utter amazement of those who thought "Well, my kids are born in America so they're American Citizens". The U.S. government busted up that fantasy bubble really quick.

                --- On Fri, 12/17/10, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:

                From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license
                To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 7:29 PM

                 

                In America there are quite a few people who live together and have children without marriage.  Some did not even report the birth to the government if they were illegal because years ago parents were deported and the child being American was sometimes placed in foster care.  This no longer happens like the 1940's and so illegals want to declare the birth so as to secure their right to live in the USA with the child.  having a baby is a 'back door method' some illegals use to secure their right to remain in the USA.  This is one thing most Americans object to about illegal immigrants.

                A few very strict states have fined people who have children without marriage, under old 'adultery laws', but it is no longer common. 

                The blood test thing to get a license is really to protect the child.  Many drug users and those with HIV have children sick, deformed or infected at birth and whose care costs local government a lot of money.  The idea was to discover and treat the parents before this happens.  In most cases it works. 

                It also prevents deformities in children by people have children with close relatives through incest.  There are rural areas where brothers and sisters have married and have children and marriage between cousins is common and fathers marry daughters and sons marry mothers.  This is usually not approved of even in developing countries and so marriage laws are to prevent this for the health and good of the offspring.


                Andres


                --- On Tue, 12/14/10, ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:

                From: ro-esp <ro-esp@...>
                Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license
                To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 3:36 PM

                 

                louis.ny2001@... sendis:

                .
                > Please, please, PLEASE explain what happens when someone in America
                > BREEDS with someone else and they don't get the "marriage license".
                > Please explain that.

                I wouldn't know about the USA, but here in NL, a child born outside of
                wedlock is just a child like any other. The parents have to report the
                birth to the municipality.
                If the biological mother is married, her husband automatically becomes
                the legal father
                (whether he generated the child or not). If the mother is not married,
                the biological
                (or maybe not) father can do some paperwork to get fathership
                acknowledged (including custody, inheriting rights etc)

                > --- On Tue, 11/30/10, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:

                > The blood tests have been required in the US for many years as STD
                > reached an all time > high around World War One...

                yeah, having bullets flying around your head seems to make people
                horny, and indifferent

                > Before that there was a huge surge during the American Civil War.  I
                > think perhaps > Canada and Australia also do it.

                Maybe i'm being totally naive here, but wouldn't it be more efficient
                to test *everyone*,
                or at least everyone who is planning to get sexually active, rather
                than just those who plan on getting married?

                > Yes there are many diseases including Herpes and Hepatitis that can
                > be passed on to fetuses during pregnancy. 
                >
                > here is a nice overview
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venereal_disease

                I'll look into that

                > Many times individuals have STD and are unaware..

                I've heard that before,and I see no reason to not believe it

                > thinking the symptoms
                > are due to something else.  Many people in the US seldom if ever see a
                > doctor because of the high cost of health care. 

                Even if they would see one regularly there'd be no guarantee...
                someone I know was misdiagnosed several times before they found out it
                was tuberculosis

                > So this pre marriage blood test was not to prosecute people but to
                > screen and require treatment prior to marriage.

                Still it seems like discrimination or even puritanism to limit the
                screening to those who are about to marry. As if it were allright for
                diseases to spread among those who do not marry...

                groetjes, Ronaldo

                --
                http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net



              • Louis ...
                From: Joseph Toman A mother does not have to do anything. Only what she thinks in her brain that she has to do.   Because of
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 21, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  From:
                  "Joseph Toman" <joseph_toman@...>
                  "
                  A mother does not have to do anything. Only what she thinks in her brain that she has to do.   Because of brainwashing she does what she thinks she has to do.  In America a child born is usually in a HOSPITAL.  With a DOC tor who is docking the birth [of a ship] child INTO the corporate beast system-- a human resourse and SURITY for the national debt.  If you understand all that then you know how we all have been duped. Redemption is an answer."
                  You are most correct. But the majority of these people here don't have a clue as to what you're saying. The only one that I've noticed that knows is a guy here calls himself GlobalMan. He's from Australia and he comes on this site every once in a while. He completely tears up courts in Australia, Ireland, Germany, and some other places. He NEVER answers when they call the straw-man name and tells them straight out that he will NOT provide any surety for that CORPORATE FICTION. This guy totally unnerves the judicial system and last year this guy even fined a judge for $250,000. And the judge didn't fight it.
                  But basically no-one else here even understands any of this. They're all about governments taking care of them (like good little slaves being looked after by their masters), getting government jobs, government medical plans, government this and government that ! ! !
                  It's incredible. I find this quite amazing.
                  Most of these people don't even comprehend a simple simple simple thing like a marriage license. They don't understand that it's ONLY a contract between them and the government for the government benefits. Nothing more.
                  And that simple lack of understanding on such a simple thing makes me see that very few of these people here will ever go forward in life but stay as simple slaves to their masters (aka governments) and will always have their hands out in a bowl waiting on their masters to feed them, clothe them, tell them when and when not to breed, travel, communicate, and basically all that's life.


                  --- On Sat, 12/18/10, Joseph Toman <joseph_toman@...> wrote:

                  From: Joseph Toman <joseph_toman@...>
                  Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license
                  To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: zardozhimself@..., renee4198@..., hineni@..., exclusio@..., cestuique@..., barennanci@..., sbringscatoe@..., jerry_in_anchorage@..., maad39@..., sbringscatoe@..., scsmyth@..., rictish@..., nitefytr@..., gnosebob@..., sno_warrior@..., jimblakelyusa@..., charles@..., jimmiec3@..., kgwrld@..., m4thdown@..., marcosagostos@..., ruthalaskat@..., brokewrench@..., ebobie@..., bcjj@..., wynandoyl@..., arthollowell@..., arubyrogers@yahoogroups.com, cohensmilk1@..., luciferosirisarnold@..., josephtmn0@..., bamboodrgn@..., sbringscatoe@..., informationhighwayman@..., messenger@...
                  Date: Saturday, December 18, 2010, 10:32 PM

                   

                  A mother does not have to do anything. Only what she thinks in her brain that she has to do.   Because of brainwashing she does what she thinks she has to do.  In America a child born is usually in a HOSPITAL.  With a DOC tor who is docking the birth [of a ship] child INTO the corporate beast system-- a human resourse and SURITY for the national debt.  If you understand all that then you know how we all have been duped. Redemption is an answer.


                  From: ro-esp <ro-esp@...>
                  To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 1:36:21 PM
                  Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license

                   

                  louis.ny2001@... sendis:

                  .
                  > Please, please, PLEASE explain what happens when someone in America
                  > BREEDS with someone else and they don't get the "marriage license".
                  > Please explain that.

                  I wouldn't know about the USA, but here in NL, a child born outside of
                  wedlock is just a child like any other. The parents have to report the
                  birth to the municipality.
                  If the biological mother is married, her husband automatically becomes
                  the legal father
                  (whether he generated the child or not). If the mother is not married,
                  the biological
                  (or maybe not) father can do some paperwork to get fathership
                  acknowledged (including custody, inheriting rights etc)

                  > --- On Tue, 11/30/10, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:

                  > The blood tests have been required in the US for many years as STD
                  > reached an all time > high around World War One...

                  yeah, having bullets flying around your head seems to make people
                  horny, and indifferent

                  > Before that there was a huge surge during the American Civil War.  I
                  > think perhaps > Canada and Australia also do it.

                  Maybe i'm being totally naive here, but wouldn't it be more efficient
                  to test *everyone*,
                  or at least everyone who is planning to get sexually active, rather
                  than just those who plan on getting married?

                  > Yes there are many diseases including Herpes and Hepatitis that can
                  > be passed on to fetuses during pregnancy. 
                  >
                  > here is a nice overview
                  >
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venereal_disease

                  I'll look into that

                  > Many times individuals have STD and are unaware..

                  I've heard that before,and I see no reason to not believe it

                  > thinking the symptoms
                  > are due to something else.  Many people in the US seldom if ever see a
                  > doctor because of the high cost of health care. 

                  Even if they would see one regularly there'd be no guarantee...
                  someone I know was misdiagnosed several times before they found out it
                  was tuberculosis

                  > So this pre marriage blood test was not to prosecute people but to
                  > screen and require treatment prior to marriage.

                  Still it seems like discrimination or even puritanism to limit the
                  screening to those who are about to marry. As if it were allright for
                  diseases to spread among those who do not marry...

                  groetjes, Ronaldo

                  --
                  http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net



                • ro-esp
                  ... sounds sensible, but how about tobacco, alcohol and industrial chemicals? ... I think that technically, incest is about sex (often bad enough for at least
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 24, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    ima_very_cool_cowboy@... sendis:


                    > The blood test thing to get a license is really to protect the
                    > child.  Many drug users > and those with HIV have children sick,
                    > deformed or infected at birth and whose care > costs local
                    > government a lot of money.  The idea was to discover and treat the
                    > parents > before this happens.  In most cases it works. 

                    sounds sensible, but how about tobacco, alcohol and industrial chemicals?



                    > It also prevents deformities in children by people have children
                    > with close relatives > through incest. 

                    I think that technically, incest is about sex (often bad enough for at
                    least one of the parties), but when there's children it's called
                    inbreeding.

                    Even more technically, *incest* in some lawbooks doesn't even require
                    being related...it's enough that one party is entrusted to the care of
                    the other

                    > There are rural areas where brothers and sisters have married and
                    > have children and > marriage between cousins is common and
                    > fathers marry daughters and sons marry mothers.  > This is usually
                    > not approved of even in developing countries and so marriage laws
                    > are to > prevent this for the health and good of the offspring.

                    and the health of humanity as a whole....some people don't realise
                    that the whole point of sexual reproduction is to stay genetically
                    diverse [and then there's the selfish-gene religion that says we
                    should all want to spread our own genes, at all cost]

                    I think that marrying your next of kin, historically, often served a
                    property-cause.You know with farao's and such... Life is so much
                    easier if you don't have to split your inheritance with too many heirs
                    ;-)


                    Of course, when we will all be worldcitizens we'll need to prevent
                    inbreeding. The problem is that the rules vary so much. In some
                    cultures, cousins [full cousins, sharing two genetic grandparents] are
                    considered first choice in some cultures, in others they're considered
                    not-eligible. According to my encyclopedia, there even are societies
                    that allow marriages between halfsiblings (sharing either genetical
                    father or mother).


                    Would I climb onto a barricade for the right to marry your cousin?
                    probably not


                    small sidenote: Hitlers father was uncle to Hitlers mother, but they
                    had special approval from the catholic church to get married...


                    Another thing about marriage laws: they should also protect people
                    from marrying too young.
                    If you're not fully grown, or haven't even reached puberty, you're too
                    young to start a family or risk a pregnancy. That would plead for the
                    age of 18 - but I've heard your brain grows until you're 23.


                    Of course, in those parts of the US where you can't legally drink
                    alcohol under 21, you shouldn't be allowed to get married until that
                    age either ;-)


                    groetjes, Ronaldo

                    --
                    http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net
                  • ro-esp
                    ... please explain that expression JT BTW here in the netherlands giving birth *at home* is the normal way ... you mean surety ? Sure, the economy needs
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 24, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      louis.ny2001@... sendis:

                      > From: "Joseph Toman" <joseph_toman@...>
                      >> "A mother does not have to do anything. Only what she thinks in her brain
                      >> that she has to do.   Because of brainwashing she does what she thinks
                      >> she has to do.  In America a child born is usually in a HOSPITAL.  With a
                      >> DOC tor who is docking the birth [of a ship]

                      please explain that expression JT

                      BTW here in the netherlands giving birth *at home* is the normal way

                      >> child INTO the corporate
                      >> beast system-- a human resourse and SURITY for the national debt.

                      you mean surety ? Sure, the economy needs babies...as future soldiers
                      and workers and
                      mortgage-payers

                      >>  If you understand all that then you know how we all have been duped.
                      >> Redemption is an answer."

                      What kind of redemption JT?

                      > You are most correct. But the majority of these people here don't
                      > have a clue as to what you're saying.

                      That is quite likely, but what do you expect? Many of us are not from
                      the USA, and many who are just beat around the bush too much. If you
                      need to go to the toilet, please ask for the toilet. Don't ask for the
                      bathroom or where you can wash your hands, because you'll get sent to
                      a bathroom without a toilet, or to the kitchen or the garden.


                      > The only one that I've noticed that knows is a guy here calls
                      > himself GlobalMan.

                      All I gather from him is that he's probably had trouble retaining
                      custody etc of his kids after a divorce or something...

                      > He's from Australia and he comes on this site every once in a while.
                      > He completely tears up courts in Australia, Ireland, Germany, and
                      > some other places. He NEVER answers when they call the straw-man
                      > name and tells them straight out that he will NOT provide any
                      > surety for that CORPORATE FICTION.

                      What is "(calling out the) straw-man name" and which corporate fiction
                      are you talking about?

                      > But basically no-one else here even understands any of this.

                      Well, there's more than 4000 of us... maybe some do understand, but
                      don't think it warrants a reply - or maybe a lot of us don't
                      understand, because it isn't explained well enough

                      > They're all about governments taking care of them (like good little
                      > slaves being looked after by their masters), getting government
                      > jobs, government medical plans, government this and government that
                      > ! ! !

                      I don't think that if people need a job, medical care or a house, they
                      care a lot about who organises it. They just know that if you leave
                      that organising to a market, most of them won't be able to afford it all



                      > It's incredible. I find this quite amazing.
                      > Most of these people don't even comprehend a simple simple simple
                      > thing like a marriage license.

                      Well, a lot of people fail to understand that money doesn't grow nor
                      reproduce.Some even talk as if mortals can make money come into
                      existence. Is that less incredible?


                      > They don't understand that it's ONLY a contract between them and the
                      > government

                      We don't understand the marriage license, probably because we don't
                      use them. The option of marriage is a right, not a priviledge. Why
                      would we have a government decide about wether our fiancee is too
                      white or not white enough?

                      > for the government benefits.

                      Are you confusing marriage license with marriage itself?

                      By "government benefit" you mean taxreductions etc ?

                      > Nothing more.
                      > And that simple lack of understanding on such a simple thing makes
                      > me see that very few of these people here will ever go forward in
                      > life but stay as simple slaves to their masters (aka governments)

                      It's not just the government who decides things for me without my approval...

                      > and will always have their hands out in a bowl waiting on their
                      > masters to feed them, clothe them, tell them when and when not to
                      > breed, travel, communicate, and basically all that's life.

                      As to the breeding part: even a child understands that you can't have
                      eternal (population) growth on a finite planet. Therefor I have some
                      understanding for the chinese policy.
                      I don't for those regimes that subsidise population growth.

                      groetjes, Ronaldo

                      --
                      http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net
                    • Gary Shepherd
                      Hi Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting people under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto accidents resulting from drunk driving.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 6, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Hi

                        Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting people under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto accidents resulting from drunk driving. People who are married under the age of 21 don’t tend to have more accidents, but people who drink alcohol do.

                         

                        Peace,
                        Gary

                         

                         

                        From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ro-esp
                        Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 4:19 PM
                        To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license

                         

                         

                        ima_very_cool_cowboy@... sendis:

                        > The blood test thing to get a license is really to protect the
                        > child.  Many drug users > and those with HIV have children sick,
                        > deformed or infected at birth and whose care > costs local
                        > government a lot of money.  The idea was to discover and treat the
                        > parents > before this happens.  In most cases it works. 

                        sounds sensible, but how about tobacco, alcohol and industrial chemicals?

                        > It also prevents deformities in children by people have children
                        > with close relatives > through incest. 

                        I think that technically, incest is about sex (often bad enough for at
                        least one of the parties), but when there's children it's called
                        inbreeding.

                        Even more technically, *incest* in some lawbooks doesn't even require
                        being related...it's enough that one party is entrusted to the care of
                        the other

                        > There are rural areas where brothers and sisters have married and
                        > have children and > marriage between cousins is common and
                        > fathers marry daughters and sons marry mothers.  > This is usually
                        > not approved of even in developing countries and so marriage laws
                        > are to > prevent this for the health and good of the offspring.

                        and the health of humanity as a whole....some people don't realise
                        that the whole point of sexual reproduction is to stay genetically
                        diverse [and then there's the selfish-gene religion that says we
                        should all want to spread our own genes, at all cost]

                        I think that marrying your next of kin, historically, often served a
                        property-cause.You know with farao's and such... Life is so much
                        easier if you don't have to split your inheritance with too many heirs
                        ;-)

                        Of course, when we will all be worldcitizens we'll need to prevent
                        inbreeding. The problem is that the rules vary so much. In some
                        cultures, cousins [full cousins, sharing two genetic grandparents] are
                        considered first choice in some cultures, in others they're considered
                        not-eligible. According to my encyclopedia, there even are societies
                        that allow marriages between halfsiblings (sharing either genetical
                        father or mother).

                        Would I climb onto a barricade for the right to marry your cousin?
                        probably not

                        small sidenote: Hitlers father was uncle to Hitlers mother, but they
                        had special approval from the catholic church to get married...

                        Another thing about marriage laws: they should also protect people
                        from marrying too young.
                        If you're not fully grown, or haven't even reached puberty, you're too
                        young to start a family or risk a pregnancy. That would plead for the
                        age of 18 - but I've heard your brain grows until you're 23.

                        Of course, in those parts of the US where you can't legally drink
                        alcohol under 21, you shouldn't be allowed to get married until that
                        age either ;-)

                        groetjes, Ronaldo

                        --
                        http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net

                      • Louis ...
                        The rationale . Interesting term. So why is it that there are several areas in America where the government has absolutely no say over any of this? The
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 7, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          The "rationale". Interesting term.
                          So why is it that there are several areas in America where the government has absolutely no say over any of this?
                          The government can only give a "rationale" (an excuse to control people) if it has JURISDICTION over said people.
                          Anyway, so yous people think it's cool for your children to go to the military and kill people at the age of 18 but have to wait to the age of 21 to drink a beer?
                          Where's the "rationale" in that?
                          An 18 year old American kid given a killing license but he can't drink some vodka here.
                          I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHY MOST OF YOU PEOPLE ARE EVEN ON THIS WORLD CITIZEN SITE.
                          I'm not trying to insult you good people but I can really see that most of you people have no clue.


                          --- On Thu, 1/6/11, Gary Shepherd <gshepher@...> wrote:

                          From: Gary Shepherd <gshepher@...>
                          Subject: RE: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license
                          To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, January 6, 2011, 4:43 PM

                           

                          Hi

                          Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting people under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto accidents resulting from drunk driving. People who are married under the age of 21 don’t tend to have more accidents, but people who drink alcohol do.

                           

                          Peace,
                          Gary

                           

                           

                          From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ro-esp
                          Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 4:19 PM
                          To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] the marriage license

                           

                           

                          ima_very_cool_cowboy@... sendis:

                          > The blood test thing to get a license is really to protect the
                          > child.  Many drug users > and those with HIV have children sick,
                          > deformed or infected at birth and whose care > costs local
                          > government a lot of money.  The idea was to discover and treat the
                          > parents > before this happens.  In most cases it works. 

                          sounds sensible, but how about tobacco, alcohol and industrial chemicals?

                          > It also prevents deformities in children by people have children
                          > with close relatives > through incest. 

                          I think that technically, incest is about sex (often bad enough for at
                          least one of the parties), but when there's children it's called
                          inbreeding.

                          Even more technically, *incest* in some lawbooks doesn't even require
                          being related...it's enough that one party is entrusted to the care of
                          the other

                          > There are rural areas where brothers and sisters have married and
                          > have children and > marriage between cousins is common and
                          > fathers marry daughters and sons marry mothers.  > This is usually
                          > not approved of even in developing countries and so marriage laws
                          > are to > prevent this for the health and good of the offspring.

                          and the health of humanity as a whole....some people don't realise
                          that the whole point of sexual reproduction is to stay genetically
                          diverse [and then there's the selfish-gene religion that says we
                          should all want to spread our own genes, at all cost]

                          I think that marrying your next of kin, historically, often served a
                          property-cause.You know with farao's and such... Life is so much
                          easier if you don't have to split your inheritance with too many heirs
                          ;-)

                          Of course, when we will all be worldcitizens we'll need to prevent
                          inbreeding. The problem is that the rules vary so much. In some
                          cultures, cousins [full cousins, sharing two genetic grandparents] are
                          considered first choice in some cultures, in others they're considered
                          not-eligible. According to my encyclopedia, there even are societies
                          that allow marriages between halfsiblings (sharing either genetical
                          father or mother).

                          Would I climb onto a barricade for the right to marry your cousin?
                          probably not

                          small sidenote: Hitlers father was uncle to Hitlers mother, but they
                          had special approval from the catholic church to get married...

                          Another thing about marriage laws: they should also protect people
                          from marrying too young.
                          If you're not fully grown, or haven't even reached puberty, you're too
                          young to start a family or risk a pregnancy. That would plead for the
                          age of 18 - but I've heard your brain grows until you're 23.

                          Of course, in those parts of the US where you can't legally drink
                          alcohol under 21, you shouldn't be allowed to get married until that
                          age either ;-)

                          groetjes, Ronaldo

                          --
                          http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net


                        • JohnF
                          From: Gary Shepherd Jan 6, 2011 ... As far as I could read into it, Gary wasn t excusing it or implying agreement with it. He was just stating an idea that
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 11, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            From: Gary Shepherd Jan 6, 2011
                            >>Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting people >>under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto accidents resulting >>from drunk driving. People who are married under the age of 21 >>don't tend to have more accidents, but people who drink alcohol do.

                            Louis wrote:
                            > The "rationale". Interesting term.

                            As far as I could read into it, Gary wasn't excusing it or implying agreement with it. He was just stating an idea that some might hold while they pass laws governing other people's behavior "for their own good".

                            > Anyway, so yous people think it's cool for your children to go to the military and kill people at the age of 18 but have to wait to the age of 21 to drink a beer?
                            > Where's the "rationale" in that?

                            Beats me. I'll be the first to say it's bunk, along with other laws "for yor own good" or victimless crimes and such.

                            AFAIC, such morality legislation and overly-repressive sexual mores are signs of intellectual and emotional immaturity.
                            Maybe likewise for over-confidence in one's own wisdom and smarts in matters political & philosophical.

                            > I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHY MOST OF YOU PEOPLE ARE EVEN ON THIS WORLD CITIZEN SITE.
                            > I'm not trying to insult you good people but I can really see that most of you people have no clue.

                            Most probably for discussion abot something that doesn't get heard much out in the world. Others seeking ways to refine their own ideas about how things could be made better.

                            We know far too little about other writers here to decide that eveybody else is dumb or clueless.
                            I'd hope that the mature readers know that generalizizng about others based on very superficial data, is likely an indicator that the one making the senseless over-generalization is probably close to clueless themselves.

                            Make a statement, provide proof, cite otehr sources and talk about ideas.
                            I won't try to guess how you feel aabout the topics you wrote about, based on the rant you submitted.

                            (Various possibly relevant quotes)
                            "The whole principle is wrong. It's like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can't have steak." --R.A. Heinlein, on censorship

                            "Hold to nothing too violently. Every fool stands convinced; and everyone convinced is a fool; and the faultier a man's judgement, the firmer his conviction." -- Baltasar Gracian (recently proven in a scientific study)

                            "The wise man knows he doesn't know. the fool doesn't know he doesn't know." (Lao Tzu)
                            "The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool." --William Shakespeare

                            "[Wilhelm] Reich theorized that without the suppression of sexuality and the imposition of anti-sexual morality, you could not have an authoritarian government, because people would be free from shame, and would trust their own sense of right and wrong."
                            -Easton, Dossie, and Liszt, Catherine. 1997. The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities

                            It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues. --Abraham Lincoln

                            "Belive those who say they seek the truth, doubt those who insist they've found it."

                            "The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle,... that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightly exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant."
                            "The only part of the conduct of any one, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty (1859).
                          • ro-esp
                            ... If that s true, you americans are weird ... right..(....) as soon as they turn 21 their drunk-driving suddenly isn t dangerous anymore....yeah... Here in
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 12, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              gshepher@... sendis:

                              > Hi
                              >
                              > Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting people
                              > under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto accidents resulting from
                              > drunk driving.

                              If that's true, you americans are weird

                              > People who are married under the age of 21 don't tend to
                              > have more accidents, but people who drink alcohol do.

                              right..(....) as soon as they turn 21 their drunk-driving suddenly
                              isn't dangerous anymore....yeah...

                              Here in the netherlands alcohol can be legally bought by anyone 16 or
                              older. The rational being that drinking younger will impair the
                              development of the brain too much.

                              groetjes, Ronaldo


                              --
                              http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net
                            • Andres Espino
                              Actually Gary is right.  It is the explanation most states give for raising the drinking age.  However it is still legal at age 18 in many states and local
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 14, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Actually Gary is right.  It is the explanation most states give for raising the drinking age.  However it is still legal at age 18 in many states and local jurisdictions.  The laws are not uniform across all 50 US states.  Neither are they about marriage or anything else except for federal laws.

                                Andres



                                --- On Wed, 1/12/11, ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:

                                From: ro-esp <ro-esp@...>
                                Subject: [WorldCitizen] drinking age (was: the marriage license)
                                To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 6:26 PM

                                 

                                gshepher@... sendis:

                                > Hi
                                >
                                > Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting people
                                > under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto accidents resulting from
                                > drunk driving.

                                If that's true, you americans are weird

                                > People who are married under the age of 21 don't tend to
                                > have more accidents, but people who drink alcohol do.

                                right..(....) as soon as they turn 21 their drunk-driving suddenly
                                isn't dangerous anymore....yeah...

                                Here in the netherlands alcohol can be legally bought by anyone 16 or
                                older. The rational being that drinking younger will impair the
                                development of the brain too much.

                                groetjes, Ronaldo

                                --
                                http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net


                              • Gary Shepherd
                                Hi Just a quick comment on the John Stuart Mill quotation at the end - what exactly constitutes harm to others ? I have seen people in the United States argue
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 18, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Hi

                                  Just a quick comment on the John Stuart Mill quotation at the end – what exactly constitutes “harm to others”? I have seen people in the United States argue that laws preventing discrimination against homosexuals ‘harms’ them by denying their right to practice their religion,  which requires discriminating against homosexuals. Was Mill referring only to actual physical violence as ‘harm’?

                                   

                                  World Peace and Unity,
                                  Gary

                                   

                                  Gary K. Shepherd

                                  Editor, United World Magazine

                                  http://uwcdwg.tripod.com/

                                   

                                  From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of JohnF
                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:14 PM
                                  To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [WorldCitizen] Re: the marriage license

                                   

                                   



                                  From: Gary Shepherd Jan 6, 2011

                                  >>Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting people >>under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto accidents resulting >>from drunk driving. People who are married under the age of 21 >>don't tend to have more accidents, but people who drink alcohol do.

                                  Louis wrote:
                                  > The "rationale". Interesting term.

                                  As far as I could read into it, Gary wasn't excusing it or implying agreement with it. He was just stating an idea that some might hold while they pass laws governing other people's behavior "for their own good".

                                  > Anyway, so yous people think it's cool for your children to go to the military and kill people at the age of 18 but have to wait to the age of 21 to drink a beer?
                                  > Where's the "rationale" in that?

                                  Beats me. I'll be the first to say it's bunk, along with other laws "for yor own good" or victimless crimes and such.

                                  AFAIC, such morality legislation and overly-repressive sexual mores are signs of intellectual and emotional immaturity.
                                  Maybe likewise for over-confidence in one's own wisdom and smarts in matters political & philosophical.

                                  > I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHY MOST OF YOU PEOPLE ARE EVEN ON THIS WORLD CITIZEN SITE.
                                  > I'm not trying to insult you good people but I can really see that most of you people have no clue.

                                  Most probably for discussion abot something that doesn't get heard much out in the world. Others seeking ways to refine their own ideas about how things could be made better.

                                  We know far too little about other writers here to decide that eveybody else is dumb or clueless.
                                  I'd hope that the mature readers know that generalizizng about others based on very superficial data, is likely an indicator that the one making the senseless over-generalization is probably close to clueless themselves.

                                  Make a statement, provide proof, cite otehr sources and talk about ideas.
                                  I won't try to guess how you feel aabout the topics you wrote about, based on the rant you submitted.

                                  (Various possibly relevant quotes)
                                  "The whole principle is wrong. It's like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can't have steak." --R.A. Heinlein, on censorship

                                  "Hold to nothing too violently. Every fool stands convinced; and everyone convinced is a fool; and the faultier a man's judgement, the firmer his conviction." -- Baltasar Gracian (recently proven in a scientific study)

                                  "The wise man knows he doesn't know. the fool doesn't know he doesn't know." (Lao Tzu)
                                  "The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool." --William Shakespeare

                                  "[Wilhelm] Reich theorized that without the suppression of sexuality and the imposition of anti-sexual morality, you could not have an authoritarian government, because people would be free from shame, and would trust their own sense of right and wrong."
                                  -Easton, Dossie, and Liszt, Catherine. 1997. The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities

                                  It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues. --Abraham Lincoln

                                  "Belive those who say they seek the truth, doubt those who insist they've found it."

                                  "The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle,... that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightly exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant."
                                  "The only part of the conduct of any one, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty (1859).

                                • Gary Shepherd
                                  Hi I would not disagree with your assessment about Americans being weird (question: how many inches in a mile?) However, statistics do indicate that drunk
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 18, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    Hi

                                    I would not disagree with your assessment about Americans being weird (question: how many inches in a mile?) However, statistics do indicate that drunk driving fatalities decrease when the drinking age goes up. So there is some reason behind the arguments to keep the drinking age higher.

                                     

                                    World Peace and Unity,
                                    Gary

                                     

                                     

                                    From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ro-esp
                                    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 7:27 PM
                                    To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [WorldCitizen] drinking age (was: the marriage license)

                                     

                                     

                                    gshepher@... sendis:

                                    > Hi
                                    >
                                    > Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting people
                                    > under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto accidents resulting from
                                    > drunk driving.

                                    If that's true, you americans are weird

                                    > People who are married under the age of 21 don't tend to
                                    > have more accidents, but people who drink alcohol do.

                                    right..(....) as soon as they turn 21 their drunk-driving suddenly
                                    isn't dangerous anymore....yeah...

                                    Here in the netherlands alcohol can be legally bought by anyone 16 or
                                    older. The rational being that drinking younger will impair the
                                    development of the brain too much.

                                    groetjes, Ronaldo

                                    --
                                    http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net

                                  • JohnF
                                    ... 1884 federal law under the highways department provisions said that any states that didn t raise it to 21 would lose some of their federal roads management
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 19, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Andres Espino wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Actually Gary is right.  It is the explanation most states
                                      >give for raising the drinking age.  However it is still legal
                                      >at age 18 in many states and local jurisdictions.  The laws
                                      >are not uniform across all 50 US states.  Neither are they
                                      >about marriage or anything else except for federal laws.

                                      1884 federal law under the highways department provisions said that any states that didn't raise it to 21 would lose some of their federal roads management funding.
                                      All states have purchase age set at 21, while there's some differences in consumption in different circumstances.

                                      Gary S. wrote
                                      >> Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting
                                      >>people under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto
                                      >>accidents resulting from drunk driving.

                                      Sounds about like the nonsense I'd expect. I've heard many different variations on such things. As I said, IMO, it's all nonsense morality legislation. "For their own good" and the general good of the community.

                                      Ronaldo
                                      > If that's true, you americans are weird

                                      That's nothing... There ae many sites listing weird or strange Ameican laws, not sure how many have been recently fact-checked. I've heard plenty of strange stuff elsewhere, too. People are like that sometimes, I guess.

                                      >> People who are married under the age of 21 don't tend
                                      >>to have more accidents, but people who drink alcohol do.
                                      >
                                      >right..(....) as soon as they turn 21 their drunk-driving
                                      >suddenly isn't dangerous anymore....yeah...

                                      Or they're not considered "children" anymore, so the consciences of the morality legislators are salved...
                                      Of course, restoring school funding so we could have driver's ed classes again would cost too many votes when election time came around, and the tax money for schools came into the debate.
                                    • Andres Espino
                                      Bear in mind that in America we seldom repeal any laws, we just add new laws to the existing ones and laws are not uniform from state to state.  We still have
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jan 21, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Bear in mind that in America we seldom repeal any laws, we just add new laws to the existing ones and laws are not uniform from state to state.  We still have some states and jurisdictions that retain prohibition and are called "dry states' or sometimes 'dry counties' where no alcohol can be sold to anyone.

                                        Because laws are seldom repealed and new ones added on, we have what are called "Blue Laws" which are obsolete laws.. which some police resurrect whenever they want to slap something on someone.  This non uniformity of local laws in America has caused problems for years, but the federal government allows for individual states and counties to have their own laws.

                                        One case in point is the controversial immigration laws in Arizona which conflict with Federal Laws.  Arizona recently passed a law that ethnic studies can no longer be taught in public schools... (some say because it makes white people look bad).

                                        A lot of this nonsense is one reason why i am expatriating out of the USA.

                                        Regards,

                                        Andres
                                        (the other Andrew)


                                        --- On Wed, 1/19/11, JohnF <johnf4303@...> wrote:

                                        From: JohnF <johnf4303@...>
                                        Subject: [WorldCitizen] Re: drinking age (was: the marriage license)
                                        To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2011, 2:24 PM

                                         

                                        Andres Espino wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Actually Gary is right.  It is the explanation most states
                                        >give for raising the drinking age.  However it is still legal
                                        >at age 18 in many states and local jurisdictions.  The laws
                                        >are not uniform across all 50 US states.  Neither are they
                                        >about marriage or anything else except for federal laws.

                                        1884 federal law under the highways department provisions said that any states that didn't raise it to 21 would lose some of their federal roads management funding.
                                        All states have purchase age set at 21, while there's some differences in consumption in different circumstances.

                                        Gary S. wrote
                                        >> Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting
                                        >>people under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto
                                        >>accidents resulting from drunk driving.

                                        Sounds about like the nonsense I'd expect. I've heard many different variations on such things. As I said, IMO, it's all nonsense morality legislation. "For their own good" and the general good of the community.

                                        Ronaldo
                                        > If that's true, you americans are weird

                                        That's nothing... There ae many sites listing weird or strange Ameican laws, not sure how many have been recently fact-checked. I've heard plenty of strange stuff elsewhere, too. People are like that sometimes, I guess.

                                        >> People who are married under the age of 21 don't tend
                                        >>to have more accidents, but people who drink alcohol do.
                                        >
                                        >right..(....) as soon as they turn 21 their drunk-driving
                                        >suddenly isn't dangerous anymore....yeah...

                                        Or they're not considered "children" anymore, so the consciences of the morality legislators are salved...
                                        Of course, restoring school funding so we could have driver's ed classes again would cost too many votes when election time came around, and the tax money for schools came into the debate.


                                      • ro-esp
                                        ... If anyone would bother to investigate, statistics would similarly show a reduction in drunk driving fatalities when the driving age is raised. Here in
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jan 21, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          gshepher@... sendis:

                                          > statistics do indicate that drunk driving fatalities decrease when
                                          > the drinking age goes > up. So there is some reason behind the
                                          > arguments to keep the drinking age higher.

                                          If anyone would bother to investigate, statistics would similarly show
                                          a reduction in drunk driving fatalities when the driving age is
                                          raised. Here in europe it's quite common that noone under 18 has a
                                          drivers license.

                                          Statistics also indicate that people drink less alcohol when the
                                          volume of the music is lower (probably has to do with the ability to
                                          have an actual conversation).


                                          groetjes, Ronaldo

                                          --
                                          http://www.esperanto.net http://www.moneyasdebt.net
                                        • Globalman
                                          Gary, since this is being discussed here. The marriage license that is used in the west is a tool of slavery. The guvments claim that all produce of the
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 5, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Gary,
                                            since this is being discussed here. The marriage license that is used in the west is a tool of slavery. The guvments claim that all produce of the marriage is owned by the state. All money. All children. Everything. This is why they also claim that on the dissolution of the marriage THEIR courts have jurisdiction to divvy up what is left after the guvment takes a HUGE slice of proceed via their secret members called 'liars/lawyers'.

                                            In the book written through me I have created a template common law marriage agreement between a man and a woman. You can read it here.

                                            http://www.peternolan.com/Forums/tabid/420/forumid/58/threadid/587/scope/posts/Default.aspx

                                            This excludes the 'guvment'.

                                            Further. I have created a template document to rescind the presumed consent to the marriage contract. You can read it here.

                                            http://www.peternolan.com/Forums/tabid/420/forumid/58/threadid/589/scope/posts/Default.aspx

                                            All men in common law countries can rescind their presumed consent to the marriage license because it is fraudulent. And contracts achieved by fraud are not valid. He can rescind this consent unilaterially. There is no agreement needed by the wife. Essentially this is a 'divorce' that excludes the guvment from coming in and plundering the assets of the marriage.

                                            If the man wishes to remain married he can complete the common law agreement at the top.

                                            I am pretty sure that as men realise they can divorce these 'feminist wives' without being enslaved by the guvment as a result that MILLIONS of men will take this option up.

                                            I am a good example of one man who found out that being single was WAY better than being a 'father and husband'. Fathers are hated on now all through the west. You just have to take a look into the family courts to see this.
                                          • Professor Dr.David Ngin Sian Pau
                                            Dear Andres, I think it s not a good advice for you to be expatriating out of the USA unless you totally disagree with the constitution of the country. And if
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 7, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Dear Andres,
                                               
                                              I think it's not a good advice for you to be expatriating out of the USA unless you totally disagree with the constitution of the country. And if you are an extremist in your faith especially of being a Muslim, I can't say the USA is a good country for you in many cases. If I, being in the USA, were like you I would rather invite other World Citizen Christians, suffering from persecution in other countries to the USA.
                                               
                                              If you want to sell alcohol and the State you're in right now doesn't allow you to do so according to the federal law, you should move to one of the States like New York where you can find yourself comfortable with what you want to do. Ofcourse, it's not allowed to kill others in any States because it's a human world, existing under  the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the UNO.
                                               
                                              And at the same time, you have the right to move out of the USA if you want to. But you will definitely loose the economic sanction of a good country, USA. That's what I am concerning about when you say moving out of the USA. I am sure the World Passport works in the USA if you have the IRP in it as it does in Malaysia. Any how, I wish you goodluck and be successful in your own decision.
                                               
                                              Professor Dr David Ngin Sian Pau
                                              World Citizen&World Political Asylum
                                              ================================================


                                              From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                                              To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 6:49:32 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] Re: drinking age (was: the marriage license)

                                               

                                              Bear in mind that in America we seldom repeal any laws, we just add new laws to the existing ones and laws are not uniform from state to state.  We still have some states and jurisdictions that retain prohibition and are called "dry states' or sometimes 'dry counties' where no alcohol can be sold to anyone.

                                              Because laws are seldom repealed and new ones added on, we have what are called "Blue Laws" which are obsolete laws.. which some police resurrect whenever they want to slap something on someone.  This non uniformity of local laws in America has caused problems for years, but the federal government allows for individual states and counties to have their own laws.

                                              One case in point is the controversial immigration laws in Arizona which conflict with Federal Laws.  Arizona recently passed a law that ethnic studies can no longer be taught in public schools... (some say because it makes white people look bad).

                                              A lot of this nonsense is one reason why i am expatriating out of the USA.

                                              Regards,

                                              Andres
                                              (the other Andrew)


                                              --- On Wed, 1/19/11, JohnF <johnf4303@...> wrote:

                                              From: JohnF <johnf4303@...>
                                              Subject: [WorldCitizen] Re: drinking age (was: the marriage license)
                                              To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2011, 2:24 PM

                                               

                                              Andres Espino wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Actually Gary is right.  It is the explanation most states
                                              >give for raising the drinking age.  However it is still legal
                                              >at age 18 in many states and local jurisdictions.  The laws
                                              >are not uniform across all 50 US states.  Neither are they
                                              >about marriage or anything else except for federal laws.

                                              1884 federal law under the highways department provisions said that any states that didn't raise it to 21 would lose some of their federal roads management funding.
                                              All states have purchase age set at 21, while there's some differences in consumption in different circumstances.

                                              Gary S. wrote
                                              >> Just by way of explanation, the rationale behind prohibiting
                                              >>people under 21 from drinking is to help prevent auto
                                              >>accidents resulting from drunk driving.

                                              Sounds about like the nonsense I'd expect. I've heard many different variations on such things. As I said, IMO, it's all nonsense morality legislation. "For their own good" and the general good of the community.

                                              Ronaldo
                                              > If that's true, you americans are weird

                                              That's nothing... There ae many sites listing weird or strange Ameican laws, not sure how many have been recently fact-checked. I've heard plenty of strange stuff elsewhere, too. People are like that sometimes, I guess.

                                              >> People who are married under the age of 21 don't tend
                                              >>to have more accidents, but people who drink alcohol do.
                                              >
                                              >right..(....) as soon as they turn 21 their drunk-driving
                                              >suddenly isn't dangerous anymore....yeah...

                                              Or they're not considered "children" anymore, so the consciences of the morality legislators are salved...
                                              Of course, restoring school funding so we could have driver's ed classes again would cost too many votes when election time came around, and the tax money for schools came into the debate.



                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.