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RE: Guys , i love you , you want a better world But.........

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  • Michel Verheughe
    ... My friend, you are right. Pride is the glue that keeps us together. But what about showing a pride in being citizen of the world? While Norwegian now, I
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 26, 2008
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      > From: Yuvi [wil1976@...]
      > Sent: 2008-11-25 15:55:13 CET
      > To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [WorldCitizen] Guys , i love you , you want a better world But.........
      >
      > What you suggest ,one world with no borders ,one government . But i
      > think you are all dreaming ,this will never happened . people have
      > pride with their country , their language (SNIP)

      My friend, you are right. Pride is the glue that keeps us together. But what about showing a pride in being citizen of the world?

      While Norwegian now, I was born and grew up in Belgium; a country that has been during the past centuries, Dutch, French, Austrian and Spanish (if you forget two German invasions).

      Belgium is nine provinces with three languages, gathered together by various treaties and alliances of despots of the past. Yes, I have a certain pride of my Belgium descendance, even if I can't even speak with half the population of my former country.

      But don't you think it is about time that the world becomes a community of democratic regions; Places where people of the same ethnic, religious, cultural or languistic group can call it "their place?"

      But that can only happen within a larger structure that handles not what is local but global. Look at the European Union. When I was a child in the 50s, there was a Belgium, Netherlands, France and Spain. Today, there are the Flemish, Walloons, Friesians, Hollenders, Bretons, Basques, etc. See how many yachts fly the Friesian flag in the waters of the Waddenzee. See the Basque names of the streets of Bilbao.

      By being united, Europe can, finally, be divided in a democratic way; not along national borders drawn by warriors of the past.

      Best regards,
      Michel Verheughe
      Norway
    • Gary Shepherd
      Hi I think you are mistaken, on several counts. Without a doubt we are dreamers. But nothing that the human race has ever accomplished, from the invention of
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 1, 2008
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        Hi

        I think you are mistaken, on several counts.

         

        Without a doubt we are dreamers. But nothing that the human race has ever accomplished, from the invention of the wheel to the moon landing, ever happened without someone dreaming it up first. The trick is to connect the dreams with a practical plan for accomplishing them.

         

        There is absolutely no reason that people have to give up pride in their country or their language in order to have a borderless, unified world republic. I know a number of people who  call themselves Italians, take great pride in being Italian, often speak Italian, eat Italian food, listen to Italian music,  etc.; but these people are all citizens of the United States, and in most cases they have never set foot in Italy.  There is no reason these people could not continue to be Italian, and also be citizens of the Republic of the Planet Earth.

         

        It doesn’t take a change in human nature to bring this about. Humans are by nature social creatures, who want to be part of a group. Out task is simply to get people to identify themselves with that largest, and most inclusive of groups – the entire human race.

         

        Just because something has never happened, doesn’t mean it never will happen. As the old saying goes, everything is impossible until the first time someone does it. But wishing won’t make it happen. It will take work – hard, dirty, shovel-in-the-mud type work – to bring it about.  

         

        For World Peace and Unity,

        Gary

         

         

         

         

        From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Yuvi
        Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 8:55 AM
        To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [WorldCitizen] Guys , i love you , you want a better world But.........

         

        What you suggest ,one world with no borders ,one government . But i
        think you are all dreaming ,this will never happened . people have
        pride with their country , their language , Some countries are better
        then the other , and they don;t want to see poor people next to them
        First you need to change the human nature , and this is a hard task .
        But i wish i will be able to see this idea come to live one day .

      • ro-esp
        ... Van: Yuvi ... You may have the wrong impression about the one govt thing. Most of us are thinking of some institution that keeps
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 4, 2008
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          -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
          Van: Yuvi <wil1976@...>


          >What you suggest ,one world with no borders ,one government .

          You may have the wrong impression about the one govt thing. Most of us
          are thinking of some institution that keeps national and local governments
          in check

          > But i think you are all dreaming

          of course we are, that's healthy. Life would be boring without it :-)

          > this will never happen . people have pride with their country , their
          > language ,

          Probably, but that doesn't mean they can't appreciate other countries

          > Some countries are better then the other

          ahum...

          > and they don;t want to see poor people next to them

          of course they do want to see.... if being richer than the next guy is their
          goal in life..

          >First you need to change the human nature , and this is a hard task .

          Please elaborate on what you want changed. I doubt that it's really "nature"

          groetjes, Ronaldo
        • george tzindaro
          The situation is different in America, where the divisions are not ethnic, but economic. Ethnicly based regions would not work in America or Australia, among
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 5, 2008
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            The situation is different in America, where the divisions are not ethnic, but economic. Ethnicly based regions would not work in America or Australia, among others.
             
            The only universal solution is to forget about such artificial distinctions as language and culture and treat everyone solely as an individual, not as a member of a group.

            --- On Wed, 11/26/08, Michel Verheughe <michel@...> wrote:
            From: Michel Verheughe <michel@...>
            Subject: [WorldCitizen] RE: Guys , i love you , you want a better world But.........
            To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 11:22 AM

            > From: Yuvi [wil1976@...]
            > Sent: 2008-11-25 15:55:13 CET
            > To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [WorldCitizen] Guys , i love you , you want a better world
            But.........
            > 
            > What you suggest ,one world with no borders ,one government . But i
            > think you are all dreaming ,this will never happened . people have
            > pride with their country , their language (SNIP)
            
            My friend, you are right. Pride is the glue that keeps us together. But what
            about showing a pride in being citizen of the world?
            
            While Norwegian now, I was born and grew up in Belgium; a country that has been
            during the past centuries, Dutch, French, Austrian and Spanish (if you forget
            two German invasions). 
            
            Belgium is nine provinces with three languages, gathered together by various
            treaties and alliances of despots of the past. Yes, I have a certain pride of my
            Belgium descendance, even if I can't even speak with half the population of
            my former country.
            
            But don't you think it is about time that the world becomes a community of
            democratic regions; Places where people of the same ethnic, religious, cultural
            or languistic group can call it "their place?"
            
            But that can only happen within a larger structure that handles not what is
            local but global. Look at the European Union. When I was a child in the 50s,
            there was a Belgium, Netherlands, France and Spain. Today, there are the
            Flemish, Walloons, Friesians, Hollenders, Bretons, Basques, etc. See how many
            yachts fly the Friesian flag in the waters of the Waddenzee. See the Basque
            names of the streets of Bilbao.
            
            By being united, Europe can, finally, be divided in a democratic way; not along
            national borders drawn by warriors of the past.
            
            Best regards,
            Michel Verheughe
            Norway
            
            ------------------------------------
            
            "I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through world
            government" (Jawaharal Nehru)
            
            For more information: www.worldservice.org and info@...
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          • Michel Verheughe
            ... Of course, George, but is this possible now? I have seen Chinatown and Little Italy on Manhattan and I can assure you that, even in America, people are
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 7, 2008
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              > From: george tzindaro [tzindaro@...]
              > The situation is different in America, where the divisions are not ethnic,
              > but economic. Ethnicly based regions would not work in America or Australia, among
              > others.
              > The only universal solution is to forget about such artificial distinctions as language
              > and culture and treat everyone solely as an individual, not as a member of a group.

              Of course, George, but is this possible now? I have seen Chinatown and Little Italy on Manhattan and I can assure you that, even in America, people are proud of their ethnic origins, even after many generations.
              But, don't you agree that it is about time that people live in democratic regions? Look at what happened after the fall of the Soviet Union; there are still people who wish they could have their own country but are refused that right.

              Best regards,
              Michel Verheughe
              Norway
            • Daniel Branch
              ... For decades,people have said that men will never land on the Moon,the Berlin Wall will never come down,an African-American will never be elected as
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 7, 2008
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                >What you suggest,one world with no borders,one government.But,i think you are all >dreaming,this will never happen.


                For decades,people have said that men will never land on the Moon,the
                Berlin Wall will never come down,an African-American will never be
                elected as President of the United States.But,these events came into
                being,despite the comments made by various naysayers.I'm very
                optimistic and feel that at some point in history,people will cast
                aside their differences,and unite as one planetary community through a
                global federal government.


                >Some countries are better then other,and they don't want to see poor
                people next to them.


                This problem can be easily remedied.A global federal government can
                initiate a global"Marshall Plan"that will eliminate extreme poverty in
                poorly developed nations,making them economically self-sufficient and
                on equal parity with developed nations.
                On 12/5/08, george tzindaro <tzindaro@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > The situation is different in America, where the divisions are not ethnic,
                > but economic. Ethnicly based regions would not work in America or Australia,
                > among others.
                >
                > The only universal solution is to forget about such artificial distinctions
                > as language and culture and treat everyone solely as an individual, not as a
                > member of a group.
                >
                > --- On Wed, 11/26/08, Michel Verheughe <michel@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: Michel Verheughe <michel@...>
                > Subject: [WorldCitizen] RE: Guys , i love you , you want a better world
                > But.........
                > To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 11:22 AM
                >
                >
                > > From: Yuvi [wil1976@...]
                > > Sent: 2008-11-25 15:55:13 CET
                > > To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [WorldCitizen] Guys , i love you , you want a better world
                > But.........
                > >
                > > What you suggest ,one world with no borders ,one government . But i
                > > think you are all dreaming ,this will never happened . people have
                > > pride with their country , their language (SNIP)
                >
                > My friend, you are right. Pride is the glue that keeps us together. But what
                > about showing a pride in being citizen of the world?
                >
                > While Norwegian now, I was born and grew up in Belgium; a country that has
                > been
                > during the past centuries, Dutch, French, Austrian and Spanish (if you
                > forget
                > two German invasions).
                >
                > Belgium is nine provinces with three languages, gathered together by various
                > treaties and alliances of despots of the past. Yes, I have a certain pride
                > of my
                > Belgium descendance, even if I can't even speak with half the population of
                > my former country.
                >
                > But don't you think it is about time that the world becomes a community of
                > democratic regions; Places where people of the same ethnic, religious,
                > cultural
                > or languistic group can call it "their place?"
                >
                > But that can only happen within a larger structure that handles not what is
                > local but global. Look at the European Union. When I was a child in the 50s,
                > there was a Belgium, Netherlands, France and Spain. Today, there are the
                > Flemish, Walloons, Friesians, Hollenders, Bretons, Basques, etc. See how
                > many
                > yachts fly the Friesian flag in the waters of the Waddenzee. See the Basque
                > names of the streets of Bilbao.
                >
                > By being united, Europe can, finally, be divided in a democratic way; not
                > along
                > national borders drawn by warriors of the past.
                >
                > Best regards,
                > Michel Verheughe
                > Norway
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > "I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through world
                > government" (Jawaharal Nehru)
                >
                > For more information: www.worldservice.org and info@...
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • george tzindaro
                Since there are not enough resources on this finite planet to sustain a prosperous lifestyle for even the countries that are now prosperous, an end to poverty
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 9, 2008
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                  Since there are not enough resources on this finite planet to sustain a prosperous lifestyle for even the countries that are now prosperous, an end to poverty would be a total ecological disaster.

                  Anyone trying to end poverty is irresponsible and short-sighted. Until world population is reduced by a very large factor, we cannot afford an end to poverty. We need all the poverty we can get.

                  --- On Sun, 12/7/08, Daniel Branch <dbranch.branch@...> wrote:
                  From: Daniel Branch <dbranch.branch@...>
                  Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] RE: Guys , i love you , you want a better world But.........
                  To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, December 7, 2008, 9:51 PM

                  >What you suggest,one world with no
                   borders,one government.But,i think you
                  are all >dreaming,this will never happen.


                  For decades,people have said that men will never land on the Moon,the
                  Berlin Wall will never come down,an African-American will never be
                  elected as President of the United States.But,these events came into
                  being,despite the comments made by various naysayers.I'm very
                  optimistic and feel that at some point in history,people will cast
                  aside their differences,and unite as one planetary community through a
                  global federal government.


                  >Some countries are better then other,and they don't want to see poor
                  people next to them.


                  This problem can be easily remedied.A global federal government can
                  initiate a global"Marshall Plan"that will eliminate extreme poverty
                  in
                  poorly developed nations,making them economically self-sufficient and
                  on equal parity with developed nations.
                  On 12/5/08, george tzindaro <tzindaro@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > The situation is different in America, where the divisions are not ethnic,
                  > but economic. Ethnicly based regions would not work in America or
                  Australia,
                  > among others.
                  >
                  > The only universal solution is to forget about such artificial
                  distinctions
                  > as language and culture and treat everyone solely as an individual, not as
                  a
                  > member of a group.
                  >
                  > --- On Wed, 11/26/08, Michel Verheughe <michel@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Michel Verheughe <michel@...>
                  > Subject: [WorldCitizen] RE: Guys , i love you , you want a better world
                  > But.........
                  > To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 11:22 AM
                  >
                  >
                  > > From: Yuvi [wil1976@...]
                  > > Sent: 2008-11-25 15:55:13 CET
                  > > To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [WorldCitizen] Guys , i love you , you want a better world
                  > But.........
                  > >
                  > > What you suggest ,one world with no borders ,one government . But i
                  > > think you are all dreaming ,this will never happened . people have
                  > > pride with their country , their language (SNIP)
                  >
                  > My friend, you are right. Pride is the glue that keeps us together. But
                  what
                  > about showing a pride in being citizen of the world?
                  >
                  > While Norwegian now, I was born and grew up in Belgium; a country that has
                  > been
                  > during the past centuries, Dutch, French, Austrian and Spanish (if you
                  > forget
                  > two German invasions).
                  >
                  > Belgium is nine provinces with three languages, gathered together by
                  various
                  > treaties and alliances of despots of the past. Yes, I have a certain pride
                  > of my
                  > Belgium descendance, even if I can't even speak with half the
                  population of
                  > my former country.
                  >
                  > But don't you think it is about time that the world becomes a
                  community of
                  > democratic regions; Places where people of the same ethnic, religious,
                  > cultural
                  > or languistic group can call it "their place?"
                  >
                  > But that can only happen within a larger structure that handles not what
                  is
                  > local but global. Look at the European Union. When I was a child in the
                  50s,
                  > there was a Belgium, Netherlands, France and Spain. Today, there are the
                  > Flemish, Walloons, Friesians, Hollenders, Bretons, Basques, etc. See how
                  > many
                  > yachts fly the Friesian flag in the waters of the Waddenzee. See the
                  Basque
                  > names of the streets of Bilbao.
                  >
                  > By being united, Europe can, finally, be divided in a democratic way; not
                  > along
                  > national borders drawn by warriors of the past.
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  > Michel Verheughe
                  > Norway
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > "I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through
                  world
                  > government" (Jawaharal Nehru)
                  >
                  > For more information: www.worldservice.org and info@...
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  ------------------------------------

                  "I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through world
                  government" (Jawaharal Nehru)

                  For more information: www.worldservice.org and info@...
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

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                • ro-esp
                  ... is ... it should be possible without the EU,but let s not get too academic here ... ethnic, ... ar they? anyway, we re not just talking about ethnicity.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 9, 2008
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                    Michel v sendis:
                    >> don't you think it is about time that the world becomes a community
                    >> of democratic regions; Places where people of the same ethnic,
                    >> religious, cultural or linguistic group can call it "their place?"


                    >>But that can only happen within a larger structure that handles not what
                    is
                    >> local but global. Look at the European Union.

                    >> By being united, Europe can, finally, be divided in a democratic
                    >> way; not along national borders drawn by warriors of the past.

                    it should be possible without the EU,but let's not get too academic here

                    george tzindaro [tzindaro@...] replied:
                    >> The situation is different in America, where the divisions are not
                    ethnic,
                    >> but economic.

                    ar they? anyway, we're not just talking about ethnicity. Don't the mormons
                    for example have their own city? The amish have their own corner of the
                    US? Aren't there parts of town where a certain mothertongue or skincolour
                    is very prevalent?

                    I think it would be very healthy if "americans" and "australians" would
                    learn
                    the nearest native language. I would even like to see all USA_"libertarians"
                    move to new hampshire, so they can show us in how far their idea of utopia
                    works.

                    > The only universal solution is to forget about such artificial
                    distinctions
                    > as language and culture and treat everyone solely as an individual, not
                    > as a member of a group.


                    Although I see your point, that's an extremely individualistic view George,
                    and could lead to a very unfree society. "Each for himself and god for us
                    all".
                    People adapting themselves not to the cultures of groups of their own
                    choice, but to some perceived common denominator

                    Forming groups is natural and practical for humans and many other
                    animals. Nothing artificial about it. Forcing people into large
                    denominations,
                    and denying their individuality is a different matter.

                    As to language, it's more a tool or even a vehicle than an artificial
                    distinction. You wouldn't suggest we get rid of all those artificial
                    vehicles
                    so we all get back on foot right? (and yes, some vehicles are more
                    practical on one kind of terrain than others)

                    groetjes, Ronaldo
                  • shalaymukadi
                    iam happy read you message one thing awanna talk you iam from congo DRC im in south africa REFUGE because of what hapening in my country and my eglesh is poor
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 9, 2008
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                      iam happy read you message one thing awanna talk you
                      iam from congo DRC im in south africa REFUGE because of what hapening
                      in my country and my eglesh is poor i stell lean to write and to speak
                      my home lang is fresh im happy to be member of worlcitizen
                      i well lake to read you people all the time
                      on mor thing im looking how to have my passport and my member carte
                      thanks for you guys
                    • Andres Espino
                      There is a joke about the city dweller who as a tourist goes to New Hampshire. He stops by a field and spends some time watching a farmer who was still plowing
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 10, 2008
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                        There is a joke about the city dweller who as a tourist goes to New Hampshire.

                        He stops by a field and spends some time watching a farmer who was still plowing his field with horses.  Finally the farmer stops and comes over to the fence to say hello

                        "I'm from New York City", the tourist replied to the farmers question.

                        "How do you like it here in 'hampshire?" the farmer asked

                        "Fine!" the tourist replied, "but there sure are a lot of strange people!"

                        "Ay-yup", the farmer replied, "But thank God they all go home come the fust o September!"

                        No matter where you go, there is always the "ethnic factor" !

                        Andrew


                        --- On Tue, 12/9/08, ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:
                        From: ro-esp <ro-esp@...>
                        Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] RE: Guys , i love you , you want a better world But.........
                        To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 7:10 AM

                        Michel v sendis:
                        >> don't you think it is about time that the world becomes a community
                        >> of democratic regions; Places where people of the same ethnic,
                        >> religious, cultural or linguistic group can call it "their place?"

                        >>But that can only happen within a larger structure that handles not what
                        is
                        >> local but global. Look at the European Union.

                        >> By being united, Europe can, finally, be divided in a democratic
                        >> way; not along national borders drawn by warriors of the past.

                        it should be possible without the EU,but let's not get too academic here

                        george tzindaro [tzindaro@yahoo. com] replied:
                        >> The situation is different in America, where the divisions are not
                        ethnic,
                        >> but economic.

                        ar they? anyway, we're not just talking about ethnicity. Don't the mormons
                        for example have their own city? The amish have their own corner of the
                        US? Aren't there parts of town where a certain mothertongue or skincolour
                        is very prevalent?

                        I think it would be very healthy if "americans" and "australians" would
                        learn
                        the nearest native language. I would even like to see all USA_"libertarians"
                        move to new hampshire, so they can show us in how far their idea of utopia
                        works.

                        > The only universal solution is to forget about such artificial
                        distinctions
                        > as language and culture and treat everyone solely as an individual, not
                        > as a member of a group.

                        Although I see your point, that's an extremely individualistic view George,
                        and could lead to a very unfree society. "Each for himself and god for us
                        all".
                        People adapting themselves not to the cultures of groups of their own
                        choice, but to some perceived common denominator

                        Forming groups is natural and practical for humans and many other
                        animals. Nothing artificial about it. Forcing people into large
                        denominations,
                        and denying their individuality is a different matter.

                        As to language, it's more a tool or even a vehicle than an artificial
                        distinction. You wouldn't suggest we get rid of all those artificial
                        vehicles
                        so we all get back on foot right? (and yes, some vehicles are more
                        practical on one kind of terrain than others)

                        groetjes, Ronaldo


                      • Daniel Jordan, PhD
                        It is a privilege to know that being a member of this group helps you in any way. I truly hope you can find a better future. With best regards Dan
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 11, 2008
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                          It is a privilege to know that being a member of this group helps you in any way. I truly hope you can find a better future.

                          With best regards

                          Dan

                          shalaymukadi wrote:

                          iam happy read you message one thing awanna talk you
                          iam from congo DRC im in south africa REFUGE because of what hapening
                          in my country and my eglesh is poor i stell lean to write and to speak
                          my home lang is fresh im happy to be member of worlcitizen
                          i well lake to read you people all the time
                          on mor thing im looking how to have my passport and my member carte
                          thanks for you guys


                        • Michel Verheughe
                          ... Indeed, George. But then, we are rich because they are poor. Is it fair? How comes that the richest countries today are the colonialists of the past? Do
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 13, 2008
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                            > From: george tzindaro [tzindaro@...]
                            > Since there are not enough resources on this finite planet to sustain a prosperous
                            > lifestyle for even the countries that are now prosperous, an end to poverty would be
                            > a total ecological disaster.

                            Indeed, George. But then, we are rich because they are poor. Is it fair? How comes that the richest countries today are the colonialists of the past? Do you see a pattern or is it simply a coincidence?

                            I own a house in Norway, one in Belgium, I have a small aircraft, a sailboat, a car and a recreational vehicle. Yet I am willing to give up all that for a fairer and peaceful world. Yes, I do!

                            But when Norway decides to buy 48 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters to a price of US$ 20 billions (including 30 years of maintenance) only to remain "the friends of the US," then I wonder if we will ever see a fair world.

                            Let me ask you: how important is industrial development? Imagine we were living in the middle-age - no car, radio, airplane, etc. - but there was world peace, understanding and justice. Wouldn't that be a nice world? It would, for me. But then ... sometimes I feel I am the last hippie; a dying race.

                            Best regards,
                            Michel Verheughe
                            Norway
                          • ro-esp
                            very incitefull george :-) ... Van: george tzindaro ... that depends on your definition of prosperous . Food, shelter, basic education,
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 13, 2008
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                              very incitefull george :-)
                              ---Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
                              Van: george tzindaro <tzindaro@...>


                              >Since there are not enough resources on this finite planet to sustain a
                              > prosperous lifestyle

                              that depends on your definition of "prosperous". Food, shelter, basic
                              education, those should be in reach. Two bilion cars, a pound of meat
                              and a pack of cigarettes per day per person, holidays by plane for all
                              - that won't happen

                              >for even the countries that are now prosperous,

                              That's because they are *very* prosperous. Have you done the
                              footprint-thingy?
                              I believe the average USA-citizen has 300 times the footprint of an average
                              ethiopian..

                              > an end to poverty would be a total ecological disaster.

                              that also depends. Many measures for less pollution/waste cost money,
                              so sometimes more means mean less pollution. [yeah, some car-producers
                              would love everybody to buy a "cleaner" car]

                              Of course, you could also start at the other end: reducing exorbitant wealth
                              can also reduce pollution and waste...

                              >Anyone trying to end poverty is irresponsible and short-sighted.

                              If you don't end decadent wealth, I somewhat agree

                              > Until world population is reduced by a very large factor,

                              by "very large factor" you mean "three"?

                              > we cannot afford an end to poverty. We need all the poverty we can get.


                              I don't agree. "this world can no longer afford the rich"


                              groetjes, Ronaldo
                            • Roan Carratu
                              You are not the last hippie. There are millions of us, although some are living underground as CEOs, politicians, professionals, (especially in the medical
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 14, 2008
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                                You are not the last hippie. There are millions of us, although some are living 'underground' as CEOs, politicians, professionals, (especially in the medical field, both traditional and alternative) and huge numbers living on farms and small communes all over the world. Another huge number is working for non-profit relief organizations all over the globe. We are becoming the 'silent majority' in the world, albeit we do not cling to the superficial dress and jargon of the old Hippie culture. You can cut the hair off a hippie, but you can't cut the 'hip' out of a hippie. grin.

                                Peace and Good Health
                                Roan

                                Exquisite Synergy http://exquisitesynergy.blogspot.com/
                                Relevant Patriotism Today http://rtoday.blogspot.com/
                                Gaia's Superconscious http://gaiaone.blogspot.com/

                                "'Savings?' .... I hoard my gold in spirit, where interest is
                                increased by giving the principle away." - Dave Hartley.
                              • Daniel Branch
                                ... The situation you just described is serious,but not that dire.The real problem I believe is the over-consumption of the Earth s resources by
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 14, 2008
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                                  >Since there are not enough resources on this finite planet to sustain a prosperous lifestyle >for even the countries that are now prosperous,an end to poverty would be a total >ecological disaster.

                                  The
                                  situation you just described is serious,but not that dire.The real
                                  problem I believe is the over-consumption of the Earth's resources by
                                  wealthy,industrialized nations.In order to have a sustainable
                                  planet,developed nations will have to make changes in policy.They'll
                                  have to practice conservation and recycling,switch from fossil fuel
                                  technologies to clean energy technologies,reduce carbon emissions in
                                  the atmosphere and give universal access to family planning and birth
                                  control to reduce population growth.As far as prosperous lifestyles
                                  go,I'm not asking for everyone to live in castles and drive solid gold
                                  Lamborghinis.I just want everyone to be guaranteed the basic
                                  essentials for living such as access to food and proper
                                  nutrition(which includes growing one's own food),affordable
                                  housing,proper health and medical care.free and/or affordable
                                  education,clean water and proper sanitation,and the right to earn a
                                  living which gives them adaquent purchasing power.

                                  >Anyone trying to end poverty is irresponsible and short-sighted

                                  I disagree.Reducing or eliminating extreme poverty is the most
                                  sensible and responsible thing to do.Greater disparity of wealth is
                                  the cause of many problems such as war,civil
                                  disturbances,revolutions,crime,famine,pandemic diseases and terrorist
                                  activities.Narrowing the gap of the haves and have-nots is essential
                                  to the common security and well-being of everyone living on this
                                  planet.

                                  On 12/13/08, Michel Verheughe <michel@...> wrote:
                                  > > From: george tzindaro [tzindaro@...]
                                  >
                                  > > Since there are not enough resources on this finite planet to sustain a prosperous
                                  > > lifestyle for even the countries that are now prosperous, an end to poverty would be
                                  > > a total ecological disaster.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Indeed, George. But then, we are rich because they are poor. Is it fair? How comes that the richest countries today are the colonialists of the past? Do you see a pattern or is it simply a coincidence?
                                  >
                                  > I own a house in Norway, one in Belgium, I have a small aircraft, a sailboat, a car and a recreational vehicle. Yet I am willing to give up all that for a fairer and peaceful world. Yes, I do!
                                  >
                                  > But when Norway decides to buy 48 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters to a price of US$ 20 billions (including 30 years of maintenance) only to remain "the friends of the US," then I wonder if we will ever see a fair world.
                                  >
                                  > Let me ask you: how important is industrial development? Imagine we were living in the middle-age - no car, radio, airplane, etc. - but there was world peace, understanding and justice. Wouldn't that be a nice world? It would, for me. But then ... sometimes I feel I am the last hippie; a dying race.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Best regards,
                                  > Michel Verheughe
                                  > Norway
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > "I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through world government" (Jawaharal Nehru)
                                  >
                                  > For more information: www.worldservice.org and info@...
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Gary Shepherd
                                  Hi I read somewhere that if you divided the annual gross world product up evenly among the six billion people on Earth, that there would be about $7,000 (USD)
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 15, 2008
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                                    Hi

                                    I read somewhere that if you divided the annual gross world product up evenly among the six billion people on Earth, that there would be about $7,000 (USD) of goods and services for every man, woman and child. Not very much, I’ll admit, but enough to keep everyone alive and healthy, if managed properly. For me, my wife and my four children, that would represent $42,000 (USD) a year  and believe me, we have gotten by on a lot less than that.  We don’t have an aircraft, a sailboat, a recreational vehicle, or two houses – but we do all right.

                                     

                                    Please don’t think I am actually advocating trying to do this – it would be a bureaucratic nightmare!  But it is important to show that the resources are out there. Those 30,000 people who are going to die today because of starvation and malnutrition don’t HAVE to die. We can do something about it.

                                     

                                    For World Peace and Unity,

                                    Gary

                                     

                                     

                                    From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michel Verheughe
                                    Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:45 PM
                                    To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [WorldCitizen] RE: Guys , i love you , you want a better world But.........

                                     

                                    > From: george tzindaro [tzindaro@...]
                                    > Since there are not enough resources on this finite planet to sustain a

                                    prosperous
                                    > lifestyle for even the countries that are now prosperous, an end to
                                    poverty would be
                                    > a total ecological disaster.

                                    Indeed, George. But then, we are rich because they are poor. Is it fair? How comes that the richest countries today are the colonialists of the past? Do you see a pattern or is it simply a coincidence?

                                    I own a house in Norway, one in Belgium, I have a small aircraft, a sailboat, a car and a recreational vehicle. Yet I am willing to give up all that for a fairer and peaceful world. Yes, I do!

                                    But when Norway decides to buy 48 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters to a price of US$ 20 billions (including 30 years of maintenance) only to remain "the friends of the US," then I wonder if we will ever see a fair world.

                                    Let me ask you: how important is industrial development? Imagine we were living in the middle-age - no car, radio, airplane, etc. - but there was world peace, understanding and justice. Wouldn't that be a nice world? It would, for me. But then ... sometimes I feel I am the last hippie; a dying race.

                                    Best regards,
                                    Michel Verheughe
                                    Norway

                                  • JonahDawson@aol.com
                                    Dear George Listen to yourself, well, we would tend to counter that it is not your words but those of a well organized media and education machine of
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 15, 2008
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                                      Dear George
                                      Listen to yourself, well, we would tend to counter that it is not your words but those of a well organized media and education machine of technocrats and neocons that has so eloquently placed these nonsensical ideas in your delicate noggin.

                                      Truth is the worlds people really have not been around for millions of years and their is no world population explosion and we could feed everyone for almost ever and not everyone is a taxpayer and not all need a flu shot and fluoride in the water does not help your teeth and chemtrails in the air do not stave off climate change and yes, we could even share a little more compassion


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: george tzindaro <tzindaro@...>
                                      To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 3:14 am
                                      Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] RE: Guys , i love you , you want a better world But.........

                                      Since there are not enough resources on this finite planet to sustain a prosperous lifestyle for even the countries that are now prosperous, an end to poverty would be a total ecological disaster.

                                      Anyone trying to end poverty is irresponsible and short-sighted. Until world population is reduced by a very large factor, we cannot afford an end to poverty. We need all the poverty we can get.

                                      --- On Sun, 12/7/08, Daniel Branch <dbranch.branch@ gmail.com> wrote:
                                      From: Daniel Branch <dbranch.branch@ gmail.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [WorldCitizen] RE: Guys , i love you , you want a better world But.........
                                      To: WorldCitizen@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Sunday, December 7, 2008, 9:51 PM

                                      >What you suggest,one world with no
                                       borders,one government.But, i think you
                                      are all >dreaming,this will never happen.


                                      For decades,people have said that men will never land on the Moon,the
                                      Berlin Wall will never come down,an African-American will never be
                                      elected as President of the United States.But,these events came into
                                      being,despite the comments made by various naysayers.I' m very
                                      optimistic and feel that at some point in history,people will cast
                                      aside their differences, and unite as one planetary community through a
                                      global federal government.


                                      >Some countries are better then other,and they don't want to see poor
                                      people next to them.


                                      This problem can be easily remedied.A global federal government can
                                      initiate a global"Marshall Plan"that will eliminate extreme poverty
                                      in
                                      poorly developed nations,making them economically self-sufficient and
                                      on equal parity with developed nations.
                                      On 12/5/08, george tzindaro <tzindaro@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The situation is different in America, where the divisions are not ethnic,
                                      > but economic. Ethnicly based regions would not work in America or
                                      Australia,
                                      > among others.
                                      >
                                      > The only universal solution is to forget about such artificial
                                      distinctions
                                      > as language and culture and treat everyone solely as an individual, not as
                                      a
                                      > member of a group.
                                      >
                                      > --- On Wed, 11/26/08, Michel Verheughe <michel@online. no> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > From: Michel Verheughe <michel@online. no>
                                      > Subject: [WorldCitizen] RE: Guys , i love you , you want a better world
                                      > But.........
                                      > To: WorldCitizen@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 11:22 AM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > From: Yuvi [wil1976@yahoo. com]
                                      > > Sent: 2008-11-25 15:55:13 CET
                                      > > To: WorldCitizen@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Subject: [WorldCitizen] Guys , i love you , you want a better world
                                      > But.........
                                      > >
                                      > > What you suggest ,one world with no borders ,one government . But i
                                      > > think you are all dreaming ,this will never happened . people have
                                      > > pride with their country , their language (SNIP)
                                      >
                                      > My friend, you are right. Pride is the glue that keeps us together. But
                                      what
                                      > about showing a pride in being citizen of the world?
                                      >
                                      > While Norwegian now, I was born and grew up in Belgium; a country that has
                                      > been
                                      > during the past centuries, Dutch, French, Austrian and Spanish (if you
                                      > forget
                                      > two German invasions).
                                      >
                                      > Belgium is nine provinces with three languages, gathered together by
                                      various
                                      > treaties and alliances of despots of the past. Yes, I have a certain pride
                                      > of my
                                      > Belgium descendance, even if I can't even speak with half the
                                      population of
                                      > my former country.
                                      >
                                      > But don't you think it is about time that the world becomes a
                                      community of
                                      > democratic regions; Places where people of the same ethnic, religious,
                                      > cultural
                                      > or languistic group can call it "their place?"
                                      >
                                      > But that can only happen within a larger structure that handles not what
                                      is
                                      > local but global. Look at the European Union. When I was a child in the
                                      50s,
                                      > there was a Belgium, Netherlands, France and Spain. Today, there are the
                                      > Flemish, Walloons, Friesians, Hollenders, Bretons, Basques, etc. See how
                                      > many
                                      > yachts fly the Friesian flag in the waters of the Waddenzee. See the
                                      Basque
                                      > names of the streets of Bilbao.
                                      >
                                      > By being united, Europe can, finally, be divided in a democratic way; not
                                      > along
                                      > national borders drawn by warriors of the past.
                                      >
                                      > Best regards,
                                      > Michel Verheughe
                                      > Norway
                                      >
                                      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                      >
                                      > "I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through
                                      world
                                      > government" (Jawaharal Nehru)
                                      >
                                      > For more information: www.worldservice. org and info@worldservice. org
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                      "I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through world
                                      government" (Jawaharal Nehru)

                                      For more information: www.worldservice. org and info@worldservice. org
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                                    • Michel Verheughe
                                      ... Yes, Gary, it should be enough. Furthermore, it is hopeless to wish for a peaceful earth when some are so immensely richer than the others. But how can we
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 17, 2008
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                                        > From: Gary Shepherd [gshepher@...]
                                        > Not very much, I'll admit, but enough to keep everyone alive and healthy, if
                                        > managed properly.

                                        Yes, Gary, it should be enough. Furthermore, it is hopeless to wish for a peaceful earth when some are so immensely richer than the others. But how can we change that?

                                        Since we, human gathering-hunters, started keeping domestic animals and growing our food for some 16,000 years ago, evolution hasn't changed us; we still have the strong instinct of the gatherer. Still today, we visit our loved ones with flowers or chocolates as a gift. A good provider is a good father and from sexual selection, we make sure that we try to gather as much wealth as possible.

                                        But then, if I kill my neighbour and impregnate his wife, I also increase the chances to see my genes going to the next generation. But I can't kill nor rape. We have accepted that today. The only solution is that if Nature can't do it, Nurture must teach us from birth that gathering excessive wealth is as negative as killing and raping.

                                        Of course, there will be a drawback; people will loose interest in entrepreneurism and innovation. We already see that in socialist societies today. My question then is: Is happiness to have the most modern equipment? Were people of the last century so unhappy because they didn't have the internet, cell phones and televisions?

                                        For me, happiness is being able to leave my home with the door open without worrying. But then ... as I said earlier ... I really think I am a dying race.

                                        Best regards,
                                        Michel Verheughe
                                        Norway
                                      • Michel Verheughe
                                        ... Thank you, Roan, it is good to know. But I wish that undergroud could make their voices heard because it feels quite lonely here. Yesterday, I read that
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 17, 2008
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                                          > From: Roan Carratu [worldmind@...]
                                          > You are not the last hippie. There are millions of us, although some are
                                          > living 'underground'

                                          Thank you, Roan, it is good to know. But I wish that 'undergroud' could make their voices heard because it feels quite lonely here.

                                          Yesterday, I read that Norway, my country - the country that gives the Nobel Peace Prize every year - has decided to increase our military presence in Aghanistan. This was said by a minister of our three-parties governmental coalition that belongs to the Socialist Left Party. Also; the only party with a touch of pacifism.

                                          I don't know what I will have to vote next time! There are no longer a party that believe in peace! Where are all the hippies?

                                          What the heck are we doing in Afhanistan? Of course, I strongly rescent the way the Taliban was treating people, especially women. But is it a reason to go out there with fighter planes and night goggles to ... kill them all?

                                          How do we win a war in Aghanistan? Kill them all? Only the Taliban? What about the wifes and chidren of the Taliban supporters? How can anyone believe that a war can be won? Only peace can be won!

                                          "Sorry Mrs, but your husband was killed in the war but ... be happy, we won!" How does that sound to you? Well, that's what my mother heard in 1944 when the British and Canadian troops entered Brussels and she got the news of her first husband who died in a Mitchell bomber aircraft over the English Channel.

                                          I am against war, weapons and death penalty. But if anyone touches any of my loved ones, I'll go after him; whatever his nationality or reasons. I'll make sure that he dies as slowly and painfully as possible. And that's why I want a strong national or international government: The community must handle with reason. As an individual, I reserve the right to handle with my feelings. I don't expect less from the Aghan or Iraqi people.

                                          Best regards,
                                          Michel Verheughe
                                          Norway
                                        • ro-esp
                                          ... Van: Andres Espino ... Hampshire. ... is prompted by an actual plan that has circulated in libertarian circles - or at
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 19, 2008
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                                            -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
                                            Van: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>


                                            > There is a joke about the city dweller who as a tourist goes to New
                                            Hampshire.


                                            that's nice, but my referral to new hampshire:

                                            > I would even like to see all USA_"libertarians" move to new hampshire,
                                            > so they can show us in how far their idea of utopia works.

                                            is prompted by an actual plan that has circulated in "libertarian"
                                            circles - or at least so I heard. The idea behind it is that most of the USA
                                            is ruled by evil socialists that squander liberty and freedom. New hampshire
                                            was chosen for it's motto "live free or die".

                                            Of course, I'm not a market- or dollar-worshipper myself, so I may have
                                            gotten a few details wrong
                                            groetjes, Ronaldo


                                            > The only universal solution is to forget about such artificial

                                            distinctions

                                            > as language and culture and treat everyone solely as an individual, not

                                            > as a member of a group.



                                            Although I see your point, that's an extremely individualistic view George,

                                            and could lead to a very unfree society. "Each for himself and god for us

                                            all".

                                            People adapting themselves not to the cultures of groups of their own

                                            choice, but to some perceived common denominator



                                            Forming groups is natural and practical for humans and many other

                                            animals. Nothing artificial about it. Forcing people into large

                                            denominations,

                                            and denying their individuality is a different matter.



                                            As to language, it's more a tool or even a vehicle than an artificial

                                            distinction. You wouldn't suggest we get rid of all those artificial

                                            vehicles

                                            so we all get back on foot right? (and yes, some vehicles are more

                                            practical on one kind of terrain than others)



                                            groetjes, Ronaldo
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