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RE: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.

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  • Gary Shepherd
    Hi However, if Presidents in the United States were elected democratically - on the basis of how many votes they actually received -- Gore would have won
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 1, 2008

      Hi

      However, if Presidents in the United States were elected democratically – on the basis of how many votes they actually received -- Gore would have won easily, by more than 500,000 votes, and there would have been no need for a recount. I say all this not because I want to be identified as a sore loser, but to point out that in the future, when we are contemplating the creation of a truly democratic world government, we want to avoid things like the Electoral College, which twists the results of elections out of all recognition.

      World Peace and Unity,

      Gary

       

       

      From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george tzindaro
      Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 9:13 AM
      To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.

       

      Bush did not take over as a result of the Electoral Collage. The  corrupt Supreme Court ordered the vote counting stopped and awarded him the election before all the votes had been counted.

       

      The E.C. is indeed a fundamentally undemocratic institution, but in this case it did not get a chance to decide. The election was decided by corruption of the Supreme Court.

       

      And in 2004, the voting machines in Ohio were rigged at the factory to give Bush more votes no matter who the people voted for.

       

      And all this was known at the time, and there were protests, but the official news media, which is owned by the same people who own the government, ignored them.

      --- On Fri, 7/25/08, Gary Shepherd <gshepher@...> wrote:

      From: Gary Shepherd <gshepher@...>
      Subject: RE: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.
      To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 1:04 PM

      Hi

      I think your critique of democracy is mistaken. Democracy operates under the assumption that the probability of obtaining the correct answer is more likely if more people are able to have input into finding that answer. In a dictatorship, is one person (the dictator) is wrong, and everybody else is right, then the society makes the wrong choice. Of course, the majority isn’t always right. But in a democracy, the principled minority has the opportunity of bringing the majority around to their way of thinking. That is exactly what happened in the case of the civil rights and womens movements, and it is happening right now in regard to the rights of gays and lesbians.

       

      Consider your own example. You obviously feel strongly that your diet is superior to that of the majority of us. In  a democratic society you have the right to eat the way you wish, and so do we, and this gives you the opportunity to prove that your idea is superior to ours (by outliving us) and thus win the argument –even if you might get called weird in the meantime.

       

      It isn’t always obvious who the people are who have the right answers or to tell who are the Hitlers and who are the Einsteins. By giving people the chance to voice their opinions, in a truthful and straightforward manner, it gives us all a chance to start telling the difference. Democracy is far from a perfect system, but it does have advantages over other systems, and the majority of people would be far better off if we had more of it, rather than less.  As you pointed out, the United States and other countries suffer from the fact that they are not democratic enough. I assume you are aware that Mr. Gore won the plurality of the vote in the 2000 election, and only because of the Electoral College (a fundamentally un-democratic institution) did Mr. Bush assume the presidency. People are much smarter than they are sometimes given credit for, and Mr. Bush and Company are aware of this fact, which is why they have done their best to abolish as much of what democracy exists in the United States and around the world as they possibly can.

       

      World Peace and Unity

      Gary

       

      From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of *MIRAI*
      Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:37 AM
      To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.

       



      On 24 Jul 2008, at 09:09, WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com wrote:

      > I hate to disappoint you folks! The US government is not the best
      > i the world.. scandavian countries far outrank us. Therefore
      > forcing many countries to adopt ot change to US style democracy, is
      > not likely to bring about any lasting peace anywhere anytime soon.
      >
      > I agree with Gary that a whole new concept is needed rather than
      > peace through democracy.

      apart from the fact democracy doesn't work. :)

      Put 9 Hitlers in a room with 1 Einstein.
      Put 9 Richard Dawkins in a room with one Gandhi.
      Put 9 Edisons in at room with one Telsa.

      Show me how democracy works?

      I've seen all my life being in groups,
      when there is only 1 pundit/genius/knowledgeable person in the group,
      the rest ignore that person, unless that person has a huge charisma/
      ego/OBVIOUS talent.
      But then wise people normally don't have that.
      Wise people are full of doubts and the stupid are cocksure.

      Also America and elsewhere doesn't have democracy.

      Japan is run by religious cult + mafia.
      USA is run by sociopathic militant industrialists.

      etc. etc.

      No democracy in action there. :-P
      No one voted in Bush.

      Even if you seriously believe Bush was voted in, it proves the point
      once again.
      Democracy doesn't work. Imbeciles/ignorants will end up running the
      group.
      A case of the blind following the blind?

      pe@ce
      MIRAI

      ps. I experience this everyday when I enter the world of the humans.
      I follow a "terra forming astronaut" diet or the "star trek" diet
      consisting of no meat/animals or drugs.
      A diet of water, vegetables and fruit. And no nicotine/alcohol/cola/
      coffee etc.
      But when I go out side people think my diet is "CRAZY" or "WEIRD".
      Yes, for them eating only Vegetables and fruit is WEIRD. Meanwhile
      I'm more healthy and my energy
      is maximised while my ageing process is slower than others. And they
      still consistently keep asking:
      "why do you look so young at THAT age?"
      How do I feel? I feel humans are idiots, and democracy doesn't work.
      So I have to put up with them, their ignorance and their bad ill
      advised diets everywhere I go.
      Surrounded by sick, ill and unhealthy people telling ME that I'm the
      WEIRD one.
      Meanwhile millions of animals are suffering, and the environment is
      being screwed up,
      and I have no power to stop it, because democracy favours the ignorant.

       

    • Gary Shepherd
      Hi Plurality means plurality. Mr. Gore received 48.3 percent of the vote, compared to 47.8 percent for Mr. Bush - not the majority of the votes, but more votes
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 1, 2008

        Hi

        Plurality means plurality. Mr. Gore received 48.3 percent of the vote, compared to 47.8 percent for Mr. Bush – not the majority of the votes, but more votes than anybody else. Because of the bizarre way in which President’s are elected in the United States, however, winning more votes than your opponent does not mean that you win the election.

        World Peace and Unity,
        Gary

         

         

        From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ro-esp
        Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:01 AM
        To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.

         

        gshepher@... sendis:

        > I assume you are aware that Mr. Gore won the plurality of the
        > vote in the 2000 election, and only because of the Electoral College (a
        > fundamentally un-democratic institution) did Mr. Bush assume the
        > presidency.

        is "plurality" a eufemism for a majority of only 25% ;-) ?

        groetjes, Ronaldo

        --
        http://www.esperanto.net

      • george tzindaro
        Even by the rules of the American election system, Bush did not win that one. He was APPOINTED the winner after the Supreme Court ordered the vote-counting
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 12, 2008
          Even by the rules of the American election system, Bush did not win that one. He was APPOINTED the winner after the Supreme Court ordered the vote-counting stoped before all the votes had been counted, and awarded him the election.
           
          And the (now defunct) American Constitution did (note the past tense) not grant that court any such power. They simply granted themselves the power to make the decision.
           
          The Electoral College may be a bad idea, but it had nothing to do with this one. This was a PUTSCH, pure and simple.

          --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Gary Shepherd <gshepher@...> wrote:
          From: Gary Shepherd <gshepher@...>
          Subject: RE: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.
          To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 10:02 AM

          Hi

          Plurality means plurality. Mr. Gore received 48.3 percent of the vote, compared to 47.8 percent for Mr. Bush – not the majority of the votes, but more votes than anybody else. Because of the bizarre way in which President’s are elected in the United States, however, winning more votes than your opponent does not mean that you win the election.

          World Peace and Unity,
          Gary

           

           

          From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ro-esp
          Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:01 AM
          To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.

           

          gshepher@... sendis:

          > I assume you are aware that Mr. Gore won the plurality of the
          > vote in the 2000 election, and only because of the Electoral College (a
          > fundamentally un-democratic institution) did Mr. Bush assume the
          > presidency.

          is "plurality" a eufemism for a majority of only 25% ;-) ?

          groetjes, Ronaldo

          --
          http://www.esperanto.net


        • george tzindaro
          Even in tat case, Gore would not have won. Because the powers that be would still have ruled that he did not and ordered him declared the winner. That is how
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 12, 2008
            Even in tat case, Gore would not have won. Because the powers that be would still have ruled that he did not and ordered him declared the winner. That is how corrupt the system is.
             
            If the official Pretorian Guard order something, the public thinks that must be legal. The court in this case had no authority, and just said they did. What difference would it make if Gore had won more votes?
             
            But Gore caved too easily. He should have fled asked all his supporters who work for and Federal agency to go on strike until the election was held over. And asked all the rest of the people who voted for him to send money so the strikers could stay out indefinitly if need be.
             
            They could have shut down the government and forced a new election. That he did not do this shows he is nothing but a part of the system that is the problem.

            --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Gary Shepherd <gshepher@...> wrote:
            From: Gary Shepherd <gshepher@...>
            Subject: RE: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.
            To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 9:55 AM

            Hi

            However, if Presidents in the United States were elected democratically – on the basis of how many votes they actually received -- Gore would have won easily, by more than 500,000 votes, and there would have been no need for a recount. I say all this not because I want to be identified as a sore loser, but to point out that in the future, when we are contemplating the creation of a truly democratic world government, we want to avoid things like the Electoral College, which twists the results of elections out of all recognition.

            World Peace and Unity,

            Gary

             

             

            From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george tzindaro
            Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 9:13 AM
            To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.

             

            Hi

            I think your critique of democracy is mistaken. Democracy operates under the assumption that the probability of obtaining the correct answer is more likely if more people are able to have input into finding that answer. In a dictatorship, is one person (the dictator) is wrong, and everybody else is right, then the society makes the wrong choice. Of course, the majority isn’t always right. But in a democracy, the principled minority has the opportunity of bringing the majority around to their way of thinking. That is exactly what happened in the case of the civil rights and womens movements, and it is happening right now in regard to the rights of gays and lesbians.

             

            Consider your own example. You obviously feel strongly that your diet is superior to that of the majority of us. In  a democratic society you have the right to eat the way you wish, and so do we, and this gives you the opportunity to prove that your idea is superior to ours (by outliving us) and thus win the argument –even if you might get called weird in the meantime.

             

            It isn’t always obvious who the people are who have the right answers or to tell who are the Hitlers and who are the Einsteins. By giving people the chance to voice their opinions, in a truthful and straightforward manner, it gives us all a chance to start telling the difference. Democracy is far from a perfect system, but it does have advantages over other systems, and the majority of people would be far better off if we had more of it, rather than less.  As you pointed out, the United States and other countries suffer from the fact that they are not democratic enough. I assume you are aware that Mr. Gore won the plurality of the vote in the 2000 election, and only because of the Electoral College (a fundamentally un-democratic institution) did Mr. Bush assume the presidency. People are much smarter than they are sometimes given credit for, and Mr. Bush and Company are aware of this fact, which is why they have done their best to abolish as much of what democracy exists in the United States and around the world as they possibly can.

             

            World Peace and Unity

            Gary

             

            From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of *MIRAI*
            Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:37 AM
            To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.

             



            On 24 Jul 2008, at 09:09, WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com wrote:

            > I hate to disappoint you folks! The US government is not the best
            > i the world.. scandavian countries far outrank us. Therefore
            > forcing many countries to adopt ot change to US style democracy, is
            > not likely to bring about any lasting peace anywhere anytime soon.
            >
            > I agree with Gary that a whole new concept is needed rather than
            > peace through democracy.

            apart from the fact democracy doesn't work. :)

            Put 9 Hitlers in a room with 1 Einstein.
            Put 9 Richard Dawkins in a room with one Gandhi.
            Put 9 Edisons in at room with one Telsa.

            Show me how democracy works?

            I've seen all my life being in groups,
            when there is only 1 pundit/genius/knowledgeable person in the group,
            the rest ignore that person, unless that person has a huge charisma/
            ego/OBVIOUS talent.
            But then wise people normally don't have that.
            Wise people are full of doubts and the stupid are cocksure.

            Also America and elsewhere doesn't have democracy.

            Japan is run by religious cult + mafia.
            USA is run by sociopathic militant industrialists.

            etc. etc.

            No democracy in action there. :-P
            No one voted in Bush.

            Even if you seriously believe Bush was voted in, it proves the point
            once again.
            Democracy doesn't work. Imbeciles/ignorants will end up running the
            group.
            A case of the blind following the blind?

            pe@ce
            MIRAI

            ps. I experience this everyday when I enter the world of the humans.
            I follow a "terra forming astronaut" diet or the "star trek" diet
            consisting of no meat/animals or drugs.
            A diet of water, vegetables and fruit. And no nicotine/alcohol/cola/
            coffee etc.
            But when I go out side people think my diet is "CRAZY" or "WEIRD".
            Yes, for them eating only Vegetables and fruit is WEIRD. Meanwhile
            I'm more healthy and my energy
            is maximised while my ageing process is slower than others. And they
            still consistently keep asking:
            "why do you look so young at THAT age?"
            How do I feel? I feel humans are idiots, and democracy doesn't work.
            So I have to put up with them, their ignorance and their bad ill
            advised diets everywhere I go.
            Surrounded by sick, ill and unhealthy people telling ME that I'm the
            WEIRD one.
            Meanwhile millions of animals are suffering, and the environment is
            being screwed up,
            and I have no power to stop it, because democracy favours the ignorant.
            Bush did not take over as a result of the Electoral Collage. The  corrupt Supreme Court ordered the vote counting stopped and awarded him the election before all the votes had been counted.
             
            The E.C. is indeed a fundamentally undemocratic institution, but in this case it did not get a chance to decide. The election was decided by corruption of the Supreme Court.
             
            And in 2004, the voting machines in Ohio were rigged at the factory to give Bush more votes no matter who the people voted for.
             
            And all this was known at the time, and there were protests, but the official news media, which is owned by the same people who own the government, ignored them.

            --- On Fri, 7/25/08, Gary Shepherd <gshepher@...> wrote:

            From: Gary Shepherd <gshepher@...>
            Subject: RE: [WorldCitizen] democracy favours the ignorant.
            To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 1:04 PM

             


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