Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare

Expand Messages
  • <kokopelli_60@...>
    Overall I agree, but does the shape of the curve change or just the individuals in it change? I guess the steepness of the curve can change by the way the
    Message 1 of 255 , Nov 12, 2014
      Overall I agree, but does the shape of the curve change or just the individuals in it change? I guess the steepness of the curve can change by the way the real earners are distributed. OTOH, the curve can remain the same while the standard distributions change...the distance between significant differences. By saying that, I understand the real wealth (or lack of it) changes between quintiles. But I think what is most important to understand is the individuals in the population of each quintile change, too, sometimes dramatically. it’s important to understand that most folks move up and down the ladder between quintiles.
      ------


      And I disagree with this use of “innate”. The simple fact is that anyone that thinks the market must have external controls is saying the market is not enough and that some form of central planning is required to protect “us” from the evil pitfalls of the market. Those people are socialists to whatever degree. Maybe the market has it’s own innate balance. But that balance is an artifact of individual choices. So, maybe it’s not innate but defacto.


      From: mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 12:06 PM
      To: 'Floyd' ; conner2or@... ; Rightisright@yahoogroups.com ; num1mema@... ; worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com ; Rightisright@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare





      Interesting discussion you guys are having.




      I agree with you Floyd, corporations in bed with government is bad for the free operation of the market, bad for the consumer, bad for the reputation of Capitalism (which such is not -- more like Fascism). All your points are IMO very well put.




      I get what you mean by balance too, but we should emphasize that such balance is innate to the free market (which you have written). Those who use the term so often are implying that the market and capitalism needs to be balanced externally, because of some innate issue. Buying into that, or allowing ourselves to be out maneuvered semantically is not good.




      As for economic "classes", they are artificial man made categories which overlay a statistical bell curve. The important thing is freedom, which is to say economic mobility throughout the curve, not worrying that the shape of the curve changes from time to time.
















      From: Floyd [mailto:ozrkhllblly@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:38 AM
      Subject: Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare




      Thank you, "conner", for your more detailed meanings.
      I do agree, in that there are some "predatory" companies (not exactly capitalism) in the world, but they are mostly a very small minority, and usually do not last for any long period of time. What is the greater majority, and increasing, are the "public/private" partnerships, composed of those "companies/corporations" that are in bed with various politicians in government, working to gain "special privileges" and "protections" (subsidies, grants, reduced tax rates, etc), along with getting onerous rules and regulations enacted that work to drive out competition from smaller business concerns that do not have the accumulated capital to expand and most times to be able to survive. In my opinion, it is these "public/private" partnerships that are causing the most harm to all of the people and the economy, because they have a tendency to cause "inflation", reduction in producing, higher unemployment, increases in costs/prices, hampering innovation and safety.


      To me, this leads to the other side of the coin, in that it is :labor: (or the underclass) that provides the "production" of all goods and services, but without the "inventors" or innovators, along with the "entrepreneurs" and investors, there would be no place or need for employing the "labor" to produce. Unfortunately, it is those "inventors/innovators", "entrepreneurs", and "investors", that are being hit the hardest by "government" interventions through those "government policies/rules/regulations" in collusion with the "supra-international" corporations and such, along with the "labor unions" and other "special interests." That is why I believe that "inventors/innovators", "entrepreneurs", and "investors" are of greater importance than "labor", because without the "inventors/innovators", "entrepreneurs", and "investors" there would be no requirement for "labor" (people, machinery, etc.) to provide for the "production" of consumable goods.


      There has to be a "balance", that is precarious at times, maintained between the "inventors/innovators", "entrepreneurs", "investors" and "labor" for any country or nation to have a healthy and robust "economy", which is mostly maintained by the "free market" type of economy, but when "government" and "special interests" intrude into that type of economy, with their "interventions", "rules and regulations" to gain "special favors/privileges" or to control thru "central planning", it always throws that "economy" out of "balance" and causes "depressions", "recessions", "inflation". This is where the "real" problems and "solutions" exist.


      Floyd






      -----Original Message-----
      From: Daniel J Conner <conner2or@...>
      To: ozrkhllblly <ozrkhllblly@...>; Rightisright <Rightisright@yahoogroups.com>; num1mema <num1mema@...>; PoliticalForum <PoliticalForum@...>; Politics_CurrentEvents_Group <Politics_CurrentEvents_Group@yahoogroups.com>; whateverreturns <whateverreturns@yahoogroups.com>; whatnowdebate <whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com>; worldwide_politics <worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: fkerogen <fkerogen@...>; beau <beau@...>; microdhses <microdhses@...>; algae5636 <algae5636@...>; srking <srking@...>; evedemian <evedemian@...>; tommysnews <tommysnews@...>; Mckinneyhunter2 <Mckinneyhunter2@...>; Scorpi0Lady1 <Scorpi0Lady1@...>; rockysma1 <rockysma1@...>; d3869 <d3869@...>; advancedstudiesca <advancedstudiesca@...>; anneteresa1 <anneteresa1@...>; bigkoala <bigkoala@...>; bill.stanley <bill.stanley@...>; rhgusn <rhgusn@...>; boldsaber <boldsaber@...>; vanzorge <vanzorge@...>; carpbear <carpbear@...>; cyberiaventure <cyberiaventure@...>; d3869 <d3869@...>; dag_gano <dag_gano@...>; davidwin <davidwin@...>; derhoaxster <derhoaxster@...>; colony14 <colony14@...>; dond3869 <dond3869@...>; drecpa <drecpa@...>; ducky4817 <ducky4817@...>; earljreese <earljreese@...>; earn4462 <earn4462@...>; elliajt <elliajt@...>; fox95010 <fox95010@...>; geriohmy <geriohmy@...>; shadyslife <shadyslife@...>; happycyn1 <happycyn1@...>; jamlady10 <jamlady10@...>; jpassgo <jpassgo@...>; joelrachmiel <joelrachmiel@...>; judyfuller007 <judyfuller007@...>; jwsblue1 <jwsblue1@...>; lance_ <lance_@...>; carpingbear <carpingbear@...>; ggalilei1642-oracle <ggalilei1642-oracle@...>; paul_dunk <paul_dunk@...>; cenacle113 <cenacle113@...>; phayes9402 <phayes9402@...>; postherguy <postherguy@...>; cactuscougar <cactuscougar@...>; rebecca.plunkett <rebecca.plunkett@...>; patriot451 <patriot451@...>; patriot451 <patriot451@...>; sirguy2003 <sirguy2003@...>; audiolaw <audiolaw@...>; rblaine_1941 <rblaine_1941@...>; sergeantfreedom <sergeantfreedom@...>; ttssuf <ttssuf@yahoogroups.com>; usmcdaughter1 <usmcdaughter1@...>; wndbear <wndbear@...>; cbhensler <cbhensler@...>; dagoodguys <dagoodguys@...>; davidw1235 <davidw1235@...>; deejacobs1972 <deejacobs1972@...>; freelancer514 <freelancer514@...>; harleymanfl <harleymanfl@...>; hemilight <hemilight@...>; hillbillytrailer <hillbillytrailer@...>; jimibee22 <jimibee22@...>; jmach499 <jmach499@...>; p00fugo <p00fugo@...>; whatnowgop <whatnowgop@...>; wilemd <wilemd@...>; Mckinneyhunter <Mckinneyhunter@...>; vandoran.heather <vandoran.heather@...>; presslerfamily <presslerfamily@...>; almagors <almagors@...>; Jembuck <Jembuck@...>; mccleodiii <mccleodiii@...>
      Sent: Tue, Nov 11, 2014 9:41 pm
      Subject: Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare


      Floyd, I am sorry it has taken so long for my response. I do have other things to do in my life so I just don't have that much time to stay online posting. Also, your post does deserve the respect of some thought and effort on my part, and not just a quick two sentence reply. So, your post, or actually two posts (I combined them below) seem to ask several questions, so I will respond by answering those questions in what I hope is a logical order. I hope we don't have too much difficulty with my definitions or semantics, I will use my definitions and try to explain them.




      Question 1. I stated that one of the major problems our society faces is the "predatory capitalism" into which our economy had evolved. Let me try to explain my notion of predatory capitalism. My definition of predatory capitalism is one in which business interests enrich themselves at the expense of all others, including their customers, neighbors, the nation as a whole. We all remember the tobacco executives swearing before Congress that their products did not cause any health problems for those who consumed it. We know now that they were lying simply to make or continue their profits; car manufactures selling autos that they knew were faulty and would end up killing their customers; polluting industries that fight any effort of local communities to stop them from destroying air and water quality in those communities; and investment groups that buy up companies just to sell off the pieces for short term profit, often destroying entire communities in the process. I don't define this or see this as the fascism you refered to in your response. If you define that type of capitalism as fascism, then fine, I am opposed to both.




      Question 2. What do I mean by the term "underclass"? Fair question, since I have no idea how, or even if, economic textbooks define the word underclass. I see our country, especially in the last 30 years or so, moving away from a three tier system (small upperclass, large middle class, and small lower class) to more of a two tier system (small upperclass, small middle class, and very large loweer class). Yes, I know, that is three tiers, but in my definition of the two tier system, the small middle class and the very large lower class are somewhat interchangeable, whereas the upperclass is more or less permanent and hereditary. We are not there yet, but it seems to me we are moving that direction very quickly, and the power and influence of the upper-class is only accelerating that movement or evolution. Another term for that second tier, lower and middle class together, might be "labor".




      Question 3. You may now see why I say that the underclass produces wealth. In most textbooks on economics, some entrepreneur comes up with an idea, combines capital (unproductive wealth) with labor, produces a new or better product, and through the sale of that new product (or service), he creates wealth (eventually, if he is successful). In my opinion, and again in the last 30 or so years, our system has diminished the value of labor in the creation of wealth. Ideas are just ideas, useless if not put into productive action. Capital is simply accumulated wealth, again unproductive if not applied to some productive use. Now is a good time to give my definition of labor. Labor is the guy or gal on the assembly line; labor is the guy working on yor car; labor is the farmer plowing the field; labor is the guy that sells you your i-pod; labor is the accountant keeping the books; labor is the guy who drives the truck that delivers your appliances to your home. Labor is any aspect ot the production, sale, delivery of a product or service through to the customer. This does include the management and executives (VP's, presidents, CFO's, CEO's, etc). That is why labor is essential in the creation of wealth ......without labor, there can be no wealth.




      Floyd, I hope I have answered your questions, at least to some degree. If not, ask more questions.














      -----Original Message-----
      From: Floyd <ozrkhllblly@...>


      Subject: Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare


      I think it is funny (not as a reference to be laughed about), in that "conner" is stating that currently the major influence is "predatory capitalism". I myself do not see as to how that can be, when with the "partnerships" between the government and the "big" corporations, it is more in alignment with the "fascist" era in Italy during the 1930's and 1940's. If it was truly "predatory capitalism" then it would have more resemblance to the "mercantilist' period in the 1500's thru the 1600's. In all of history, there has never been a true "unregulated capitalist" style economy or society, not even in this country from its founding. It was close, when this society experienced its greatest economic growth periods, but it has never been a completely "capitalist" style economy or society.


      One main question I would ask is, where are the examples or proof that show the so-called "underclass" producing "wealth?" In all of the books on "economics" and other subjects that I have read, nowhere does it show or prove that the "underclass" has produced wealth. Maybe "fkerogen" or "conner" could provide a more exact description of "who" they mean by the "underclass?"


      Floyd




      It has to do with "semantics" and "precise definitions", Brian. What is so difficult to understand about that? I was "simply" asking "fkerogen" and "conner" what they mean by the term "underclass", along with any proof that it is the "underclass" that produces the "wealth", or it could be included "how do the underclass produce wealth".


      Floyd
















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bob Wynman
      All based on the Win-Lose Paradigm, the Montagne Dogma: For us to win, THEY must be forced to lose. . --bob From: WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com
      Message 255 of 255 , Dec 21, 2014
        All based on the Win-Lose Paradigm, the Montagne Dogma: "For us to win,
        THEY must be forced to lose.".





        --bob





        From: WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 6:39 AM
        To: Rightisright@yahoogroups.com; conner2or@...; num1mema@...;
        worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [WHATNOWDEBATE] RE: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and
        Obamacare








        My issue Gary is that money is so often demonized, and it spills over into
        capitalism, which is really economic freedom and property rights. The left
        can sometimes virtually equate money to evil and wealth to selfishness, etc.
        etc. I am always on the lookout for the trap. Thanks, Dave





        _____


        From: Rightisright@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com>
        [mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 6:58 PM
        To: Rightisright@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> ;
        conner2or@... <mailto:conner2or@...> ; num1mema@...
        <mailto:num1mema@...> ; worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com <mailto:whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare








        Shit is everywhere as well but I'm really surprised that any of you want to
        make a mountain out of this mole hill. I find it very odd. Lots more
        important philosophical questions, than this.





        _____


        From: "'Dave' davidwin@... <mailto:davidwin@...> [Rightisright]"
        <Rightisright@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> >
        To: Rightisright@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> ;
        conner2or@... <mailto:conner2or@...> ; num1mema@...
        <mailto:num1mema@...> ; worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com <mailto:whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 1:56 PM
        Subject: RE: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare








        This strikes me like suggesting water serves a useful purpose but like any
        tool, can be very badly abused. Or how about accounting, or any symbolic use
        of math, or any measurement, all bad when abused.





        Money is not the same as materialism, or exploitation, or fraud, or any of
        the things that might unfortunately become associated with it. Money after
        all is everywhere, like water, and is as associated with virtually all good
        things as it might be bad.





        I'm with Floyd.





        _____





        From: Rightisright@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com>
        [mailto: Rightisright@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com>
        ]
        Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 8:48 AM
        To: Rightisright@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> ;
        conner2or@... <mailto:conner2or@...> ; num1mema@...
        <mailto:num1mema@...> ; worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com <mailto:whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare








        It does serve a very useful purpose but like any tool it can be very badly
        abused.





        _____


        From: "Floyd ozrkhllblly@... <mailto:ozrkhllblly@...>
        [Rightisright]" < Rightisright@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> >
        To: Rightisright@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> ;
        conner2or@... <mailto:conner2or@...> ; num1mema@...
        <mailto:num1mema@...> ; worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com <mailto:whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 10:09 PM
        Subject: Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare








        That, Gary, is because most people have the wrong idea of what "money" is
        and what it stands for.


        Floyd














        -----Original Message-----
        From: gary beauregard beau@... <mailto:beau@...>
        [Rightisright] < Rightisright@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> >
        To: Rightisright < Rightisright@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> >; 'Floyd' <ozrkhllblly@...
        <mailto:ozrkhllblly@...> >; conner2or <conner2or@...
        <mailto:conner2or@...> >; num1mema <num1mema@...
        <mailto:num1mema@...> >; worldwide_politics
        <worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com> >
        Cc: whatnowdebate <whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com> >
        Sent: Wed, Nov 12, 2014 1:18 pm
        Subject: Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare





        I learned long ago that money is the scourge of ethics.





        _____


        From: "'Dave' davidwin@... <mailto:davidwin@...> [Rightisright]"
        <Rightisright@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> >
        To: 'Floyd' <ozrkhllblly@... <mailto:ozrkhllblly@...> >;
        conner2or@... <mailto:conner2or@...> ; Rightisright@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> ; num1mema@...
        <mailto:num1mema@...> ; worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com <mailto:whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com> ;
        Rightisright@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 12:06 PM
        Subject: RE: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare








        Interesting discussion you guys are having.





        I agree with you Floyd, corporations in bed with government is bad for the
        free operation of the market, bad for the consumer, bad for the reputation
        of Capitalism (which such is not -- more like Fascism). All your points are
        IMO very well put.





        I get what you mean by balance too, but we should emphasize that such
        balance is innate to the free market (which you have written). Those who
        use the term so often are implying that the market and capitalism needs to
        be balanced externally, because of some innate issue. Buying into that, or
        allowing ourselves to be out maneuvered semantically is not good.





        As for economic "classes", they are artificial man made categories which
        overlay a statistical bell curve. The important thing is freedom, which is
        to say economic mobility throughout the curve, not worrying that the shape
        of the curve changes from time to time.























        From: Floyd [mailto:ozrkhllblly@... <mailto:ozrkhllblly@...?> ]
        Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:38 AM
        Subject: Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare





        Thank you, "conner", for your more detailed meanings.
        I do agree, in that there are some "predatory" companies (not exactly
        capitalism) in the world, but they are mostly a very small minority, and
        usually do not last for any long period of time. What is the greater
        majority, and increasing, are the "public/private" partnerships, composed of
        those "companies/corporations" that are in bed with various politicians in
        government, working to gain "special privileges" and "protections"
        (subsidies, grants, reduced tax rates, etc), along with getting onerous
        rules and regulations enacted that work to drive out competition from
        smaller business concerns that do not have the accumulated capital to expand
        and most times to be able to survive. In my opinion, it is these
        "public/private" partnerships that are causing the most harm to all of the
        people and the economy, because they have a tendency to cause "inflation",
        reduction in producing, higher unemployment, increases in costs/prices,
        hampering innovation and safety.


        To me, this leads to the other side of the coin, in that it is :labor: (or
        the underclass) that provides the "production" of all goods and services,
        but without the "inventors" or innovators, along with the "entrepreneurs"
        and investors, there would be no place or need for employing the "labor" to
        produce. Unfortunately, it is those "inventors/innovators", "entrepreneurs",
        and "investors", that are being hit the hardest by "government"
        interventions through those "government policies/rules/regulations" in
        collusion with the "supra-international" corporations and such, along with
        the "labor unions" and other "special interests." That is why I believe that
        "inventors/innovators", "entrepreneurs", and "investors" are of greater
        importance than "labor", because without the "inventors/innovators",
        "entrepreneurs", and "investors" there would be no requirement for "labor"
        (people, machinery, etc.) to provide for the "production" of consumable
        goods.


        There has to be a "balance", that is precarious at times, maintained
        between the "inventors/innovators", "entrepreneurs", "investors" and "labor"
        for any country or nation to have a healthy and robust "economy", which is
        mostly maintained by the "free market" type of economy, but when
        "government" and "special interests" intrude into that type of economy, with
        their "interventions", "rules and regulations" to gain "special
        favors/privileges" or to control thru "central planning", it always throws
        that "economy" out of "balance" and causes "depressions", "recessions",
        "inflation". This is where the "real" problems and "solutions" exist.


        Floyd








        -----Original Message-----
        From: Daniel J Conner <conner2or@... <mailto:conner2or@...> >
        To: ozrkhllblly <ozrkhllblly@... <mailto:ozrkhllblly@...> >;
        Rightisright <Rightisright@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:Rightisright@yahoogroups.com> >; num1mema <num1mema@...
        <mailto:num1mema@...> >; PoliticalForum <PoliticalForum@...
        <mailto:PoliticalForum@...> >; Politics_CurrentEvents_Group
        <Politics_CurrentEvents_Group@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:Politics_CurrentEvents_Group@yahoogroups.com> >; whateverreturns
        <whateverreturns@yahoogroups.com <mailto:whateverreturns@yahoogroups.com> >;
        whatnowdebate <whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com> >; worldwide_politics
        <worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:worldwide_politics@yahoogroups.com> >
        Cc: fkerogen <fkerogen@... <mailto:fkerogen@...> >; beau
        <beau@... <mailto:beau@...> >; microdhses
        <microdhses@... <mailto:microdhses@...> >; algae5636
        <algae5636@... <mailto:algae5636@...> >; srking
        <srking@... <mailto:srking@...> >; evedemian
        <evedemian@... <mailto:evedemian@...> >; tommysnews
        <tommysnews@... <mailto:tommysnews@...> >; Mckinneyhunter2
        <Mckinneyhunter2@... <mailto:Mckinneyhunter2@...> >; Scorpi0Lady1
        <Scorpi0Lady1@... <mailto:Scorpi0Lady1@...> >; rockysma1
        <rockysma1@... <mailto:rockysma1@...> >; d3869 <d3869@...
        <mailto:d3869@...> >; advancedstudiesca <advancedstudiesca@...
        <mailto:advancedstudiesca@...> >; anneteresa1 <anneteresa1@...
        <mailto:anneteresa1@...> >; bigkoala <bigkoala@...
        <mailto:bigkoala@...> >; bill.stanley <bill.stanley@...
        <mailto:bill.stanley@...> >; rhgusn <rhgusn@...
        <mailto:rhgusn@...> >; boldsaber <boldsaber@...
        <mailto:boldsaber@...> >; vanzorge <vanzorge@...
        <mailto:vanzorge@...> >; carpbear <carpbear@...
        <mailto:carpbear@...> >; cyberiaventure <cyberiaventure@...
        <mailto:cyberiaventure@...> >; d3869 <d3869@...
        <mailto:d3869@...> >; dag_gano <dag_gano@...
        <mailto:dag_gano@...> >; davidwin <davidwin@...
        <mailto:davidwin@...> >; derhoaxster <derhoaxster@...
        <mailto:derhoaxster@...> >; colony14 <colony14@...
        <mailto:colony14@...> >; dond3869 <dond3869@...
        <mailto:dond3869@...> >; drecpa <drecpa@...
        <mailto:drecpa@...> >; ducky4817 <ducky4817@...
        <mailto:ducky4817@...> >; earljreese < earljreese@...
        <mailto:earljreese@...> >; earn4462 <earn4462@...
        <mailto:earn4462@...> >; elliajt <elliajt@...
        <mailto:elliajt@...> >; fox95010 <fox95010@...
        <mailto:fox95010@...> >; geriohmy <geriohmy@...
        <mailto:geriohmy@...> >; shadyslife <shadyslife@...
        <mailto:shadyslife@...> >; happycyn1 <happycyn1@...
        <mailto:happycyn1@...> >; jamlady10 <jamlady10@...
        <mailto:jamlady10@...> >; jpassgo <jpassgo@...
        <mailto:jpassgo@...> >; joelrachmiel <joelrachmiel@...
        <mailto:joelrachmiel@...> >; judyfuller007 <judyfuller007@...
        <mailto:judyfuller007@...> >; jwsblue1 <jwsblue1@...
        <mailto:jwsblue1@...> >; lance_ <lance_@...
        <mailto:lance_@...> >; carpingbear <carpingbear@...
        <mailto:carpingbear@...> >; ggalilei1642-oracle
        <ggalilei1642-oracle@... <mailto:ggalilei1642-oracle@...> >;
        paul_dunk <paul_dunk@... <mailto:paul_dunk@...> >; cenacle113
        <cenacle113@... <mailto:cenacle113@...> >; phayes9402
        <phayes9402@... <mailto:phayes9402@...> >; postherguy
        <postherguy@... <mailto:postherguy@...> >; cactuscougar
        <cactuscougar@... <mailto:cactuscougar@...> >; rebecca.plunkett
        <rebecca.plunkett@... <mailto:rebecca.plunkett@...> >; patriot451
        <patriot451@... <mailto:patriot451@...> >; patriot451
        <patriot451@... <mailto:patriot451@...> >; sirguy2003
        <sirguy2003@... <mailto:sirguy2003@...> >; audiolaw
        <audiolaw@... <mailto:audiolaw@...> >; rblaine_1941
        <rblaine_1941@... <mailto:rblaine_1941@...> >; sergeantfreedom
        <sergeantfreedom@... <mailto:sergeantfreedom@...> >; ttssuf
        <ttssuf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ttssuf@yahoogroups.com> >; usmcdaughter1
        <usmcdaughter1@... <mailto:usmcdaughter1@...> >; wndbear
        <wndbear@... <mailto:wndbear@...> >; cbhensler <cbhensler@...
        <mailto:cbhensler@...> >; dagoodguys <dagoodguys@...
        <mailto:dagoodguys@...> >; davidw1235 <davidw1235@...
        <mailto:davidw1235@...> >; deejacobs1972 <deejacobs1972@...
        <mailto:deejacobs1972@...> >; freelancer514 <freelancer514@...
        <mailto:freelancer514@...> >; harleymanfl <harleymanfl@...
        <mailto:harleymanfl@...> >; hemilight <hemilight@...
        <mailto:hemilight@...> >; hillbillytrailer <hillbillytrailer@...
        <mailto:hillbillytrailer@...> >; jimibee22 <jimibee22@...
        <mailto:jimibee22@...> >; jmach499 <jmach499@...
        <mailto:jmach499@...> >; p00fugo <p00fugo@...
        <mailto:p00fugo@...> >; whatnowgop <whatnowgop@...
        <mailto:whatnowgop@...> >; wilemd <wilemd@...
        <mailto:wilemd@...> >; Mckinneyhunter <Mckinneyhunter@...
        <mailto:Mckinneyhunter@...> >; vandoran.heather
        <vandoran.heather@... <mailto:vandoran.heather@...> >;
        presslerfamily <presslerfamily@...
        <mailto:presslerfamily@...> >; almagors <almagors@...
        <mailto:almagors@...> >; Jembuck <Jembuck@...
        <mailto:Jembuck@...> >; mccleodiii <mccleodiii@...
        <mailto:mccleodiii@...> >
        Sent: Tue, Nov 11, 2014 9:41 pm
        Subject: Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare


        Floyd, I am sorry it has taken so long for my response. I do have other
        things to do in my life so I just don't have that much time to stay online
        posting. Also, your post does deserve the respect of some thought and effort
        on my part, and not just a quick two sentence reply. So, your post, or
        actually two posts (I combined them below) seem to ask several questions, so
        I will respond by answering those questions in what I hope is a logical
        order. I hope we don't have too much difficulty with my definitions or
        semantics, I will use my definitions and try to explain them.





        Question 1. I stated that one of the major problems our society faces is
        the "predatory capitalism" into which our economy had evolved. Let me try
        to explain my notion of predatory capitalism. My definition of predatory
        capitalism is one in which business interests enrich themselves at the
        expense of all others, including their customers, neighbors, the nation as a
        whole. We all remember the tobacco executives swearing before Congress that
        their products did not cause any health problems for those who consumed it.
        We know now that they were lying simply to make or continue their profits;
        car manufactures selling autos that they knew were faulty and would end up
        killing their customers; polluting industries that fight any effort of local
        communities to stop them from destroying air and water quality in those
        communities; and investment groups that buy up companies just to sell off
        the pieces for short term profit, often destroying entire communities in the
        process. I don't define this or see this as the fascism you refered to in
        your response. If you define that type of capitalism as fascism, then fine,
        I am opposed to both.





        Question 2. What do I mean by the term "underclass"? Fair question, since
        I have no idea how, or even if, economic textbooks define the word
        underclass. I see our country, especially in the last 30 years or so,
        moving away from a three tier system (small upperclass, large middle class,
        and small lower class) to more of a two tier system (small upperclass, small
        middle class, and very large loweer class). Yes, I know, that is three
        tiers, but in my definition of the two tier system, the small middle class
        and the very large lower class are somewhat interchangeable, whereas the
        upperclass is more or less permanent and hereditary. We are not there yet,
        but it seems to me we are moving that direction very quickly, and the power
        and influence of the upper-class is only accelerating that movement or
        evolution. Another term for that second tier, lower and middle class
        together, might be "labor".





        Question 3. You may now see why I say that the underclass produces wealth.
        In most textbooks on economics, some entrepreneur comes up with an idea,
        combines capital (unproductive wealth) with labor, produces a new or better
        product, and through the sale of that new product (or service), he creates
        wealth (eventually, if he is successful). In my opinion, and again in the
        last 30 or so years, our system has diminished the value of labor in the
        creation of wealth. Ideas are just ideas, useless if not put into
        productive action. Capital is simply accumulated wealth, again unproductive
        if not applied to some productive use. Now is a good time to give my
        definition of labor. Labor is the guy or gal on the assembly line; labor is
        the guy working on yor car; labor is the farmer plowing the field; labor is
        the guy that sells you your i-pod; labor is the accountant keeping the
        books; labor is the guy who drives the truck that delivers your appliances
        to your home. Labor is any aspect ot the production, sale, delivery of a
        product or service through to the customer. This does include the
        management and executives (VP's, presidents, CFO's, CEO's, etc). That is
        why labor is essential in the creation of wealth ......without labor, there
        can be no wealth.





        Floyd, I hope I have answered your questions, at least to some degree. If
        not, ask more questions.




















        -----Original Message-----
        From: Floyd <ozrkhllblly@... <mailto:ozrkhllblly@...> >


        Subject: Re: [Rightisright] RE: The rich thieves and Obamacare


        I think it is funny (not as a reference to be laughed about), in that
        "conner" is stating that currently the major influence is "predatory
        capitalism". I myself do not see as to how that can be, when with the
        "partnerships" between the government and the "big" corporations, it is more
        in alignment with the "fascist" era in Italy during the 1930's and 1940's.
        If it was truly "predatory capitalism" then it would have more resemblance
        to the "mercantilist' period in the 1500's thru the 1600's. In all of
        history, there has never been a true "unregulated capitalist" style economy
        or society, not even in this country from its founding. It was close, when
        this society experienced its greatest economic growth periods, but it has
        never been a completely "capitalist" style economy or society.


        One main question I would ask is, where are the examples or proof that show
        the so-called "underclass" producing "wealth?" In all of the books on
        "economics" and other subjects that I have read, nowhere does it show or
        prove that the "underclass" has produced wealth. Maybe "fkerogen" or
        "conner" could provide a more exact description of "who" they mean by the
        "underclass?"


        Floyd





        It has to do with "semantics" and "precise definitions", Brian. What is so
        difficult to understand about that? I was "simply" asking "fkerogen" and
        "conner" what they mean by the term "underclass", along with any proof that
        it is the "underclass" that produces the "wealth", or it could be included
        "how do the underclass produce wealth".


        Floyd------------------


        [Bo7b:]


        "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
        you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you
        will understand why I dismiss yours"
        - Stephen Roberts





        When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall
        become as corrupt as Europe.


        --Thomas Jefferson





        I gave my life for freedom -- this I know; for those who bade me fight told
        me so.
        -- W.N. Ewer





        --bob & lou












        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.