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RE: [SpaceLand] RE: : all money is debt; why don't they see this?

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  • M.K. Hovila
    Jake ( think) said:. I punched in the numbers and discovered that the borrower will pay to the bank in interest $172,741 compared to $70,000 paid for the
    Message 1 of 90 , Oct 31, 2010
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      Jake ( think) said:.
      I
      punched in the numbers and discovered that the borrower will pay to the bank
      in interest $172,741 compared to $70,000 paid for the construction of the
      house. In other words, about 2.5 times as much money will be paid to the bank
      in interest than will be paid to those who provide all the labor and all the
      materials.
      And you may say to yourself, yes but
      that ' s fair, after all a 30 year loan is a long loan and people
      work for their money and sacrifice its use and loan it and so forth and
      deserve to be compensated.
      No. Not this money. Nobody worked for this
      money, nobody saved this money. There was no sacrifice of any kind for this
      money.
      MY RESPONSE (MARK):  You may have a point if a bank is simply given free money by the government to lend out at interest, which is of course wrong.  That may happen at the point of money creation, but I don't think it's the usual case at the consumer banking level.  Banks don't just call up the government and say "hey, create some more money and put it in our account." Bailouts do sometimes  happen, but that's not the way it typically works.
      But to simplify this, let's talk about a private loan transaction. These happen every day in America.  If I loan you 100K to buy a house, that is certainly money I earned, and it is money that I want to make a profit on, otherwise I wouldn't have lent it to you.  My giving you the money IS a sacrifice, and a risk, but I am willing to make the sacrifice and take the risk in expectation of making money from the transaction.  You benefit by getting a house to live in without having to pay for it in full now.
      The interest rate of the loan should be a matter completely up to us.  If I want to do you a favor because you're my kid, I might loan you the money at 0% interest.  But generally speaking, I want the interest to be as high as possible and you, the borrower, want it to be as low as possible.  I don't see any parasitism involved in this transaction.  Did somebody hold a gun to your head to borrow the money?  You could have continued to rent if you wanted to.  If I am a parasite for collecting interest, then it should be true on the other side of the transaction, too.  If you don't pay and I lose money, you are the one who is the parasite, not me.  
      I have a lot of problems with our current money system, but  I don't believe that interest on loans per se is immoral, if that is where you are going with this.
      Were you the guy who was trying to push some kind of mortgage elimination scheme a while back?  There are a lot of scammers out there saying that you don't have to pay back your mortgages because it's immoral.  Meanwhile, they get a free house (if the scam works) at the expense of the investor who thought he was dealing with an ethical person. I hope you're not involved with that garbage.
      Mark
    • Dennis
      But you misidentify the republicans as conservatives when all around us I see only progressive republicans. Perhaps they are not progressive enough for someone
      Message 90 of 90 , Nov 14, 2010
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        But you misidentify the republicans as conservatives when all around us I see only progressive republicans. Perhaps they are not progressive enough for someone on the spearhead as you appear to be. But to a true conservative, they are way out there in lalaland. I guess you know where that puts you in my boat? (smile) But never fear as all things are a circle and you can still catch back up with conservatism. Progress is bidirectional.

        --- In World-wide_Politics@yahoogroups.com, "Lou & Bob Wynman" <bobalou@...> wrote:
        >
        > Quite correct, Dennis, The whole left-wing/right-wing BS is a false alternative; both wings of the same tyrannical coercive Statist bird.
        >
        > "Left wing" (& "liberals", "democrats") leads to communism (Marx I--read the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto, 1848, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto).
        >
        > "Right wing" (& "conservatives", "republicans") leads to corporate fascism (Marx II--read "Das Kapital", 1867, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital
        >
        > The myth that they're the only alternatives and that they're opposites, or even significantly different, has been successfully embedded into most American brains by 4-5 generations of State-controlled schools and media; the same mechanism that has caused folks to believe that their government = their country and that their only choice for health is drugs vs. surgery.
        >
        > The Liberals' "War on Poverty" and the Conservatives' "War on Drugs" are both disastrous parts of the State's War on Freedom.
        >
        > Check the Shortest Quiz, http://www.theadvocates.org
        >
        > bob
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Dennis
        > To: World-wide_Politics@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:14 AM
        > Subject: [World-wide_Politics] [World-wide_Politics] all money is debt; why don't they see this?
        >
        >
        >
        > [Moderated. DH]
        >
        > [Dennis Helbig] Obama freely admitted yesterday that the devaluation of the dollar was intentional on both party's parts. So stop with the party line [baloney].
        >
        > [Rick]Sure it occurred to me!! However what has to be done NOW is to climb out of the 2nd Republican depression. As people get back to work and the tax base increases, THEN start paying down the debt.
        >
        > Did it occur to you that stopping 2 wars and NOT extending UNFUNDED tax cuts for the rich would go a long way toward starting to pay the debt?
        >
        > [kurt31416] Ever occur to you that a balanced budget is good for the economy? That not selling our grandchildren into slavery will cheer people up?
        >
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