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Al on the Win-win Free market?

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  • Bob Wynman
    Please to ‘splain what you mean on that one, Al. In a free market, people buy and sell. If the buyer doesn’t think (s)he’s getting more value than
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 11, 2014
      Please to ‘splain what you mean on that one, Al.





      In a free market, people buy and sell. If the buyer doesn’t think (s)he’s getting more value than (s)he’s giving, no transaction happens & if the seller doesn’t think (s)he’s getting more value than (s)he’s giving, no transaction happens.





      ‘tis only when both parties think they’re getting more value than they’re giving that a transaction takes place & both win.





      So what’s this “there are always more losers than winners” idea mean??





      Thanks for your clarification, Al.





      --bob





      From: algae5636@... [mailto:algae5636@...]
      Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 9:57 PM
      To: bobalou@...; WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com; patriot451@...
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      Subject: Re: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??





      Lol.
      Perhaps you've never noticed that in competitive endeavors such as a market, there are always more losers than winners, besides which a competition only generates enough rewards to take care of its winners.
      So the organization called the "market" always creates a demand for a second organization that will make sure the losers are taken care of one way or another-- including by force if need be.
      Expecting the "free market" to be a "win-win" for the majority of the people in it is, in the end, just another form of expecting everyone to be above average at the same time.


      :-)





      -----Original Message-----
      From: Bob Wynman <bobalou@... <mailto:bobalou@...> >
      Sent: Fri, Jul 11, 2014 6:27 pm
      Subject: RE: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??


      No customers for such a product in a free society, Dag.





      When the win-win free market society is built, why would anyone support the idea of being ruled by a win-lose bureaucrat-run State??





      --bob





      From: WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com?> ]
      Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 5:12 PM
      Subject: Re: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??








      If there were no state, what would stop someone from creating one - most likely a really bad one?





      Nature abhors a vacuum.








      _____


      From: "'Bob Wynman' bobalou@... <mailto:bobalou@...> [WHATNOWDEBATE]" <WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com> >
      Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:46 PM
      Subject: RE: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??








      We agree, Dag, ‘cept for your claim that the power of the State, which you call “government” here, can be limited one it’s given to the State. THAT is utopian thinking … and I surely do understand it, since it was also MY thinking for 40+ years.





      --bob








      From: WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 7:58 AM


      Subject: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Corporations"!








      The idea that you can control BIG government is a fantasy. I'm not for NO government, but government must be severely limited. Originally, ours was. Over the last 100+ years it has spilled over its banks, due in large part to citizens who demanded it (Progressives and Liberals). One only need look at all the ways government intrudes into our lives and continues to gain illegitimate power to see that this idea that we can control it is a dream that can never come true. And even if it could, there would always be a large segment of the population who's rights would be violated.











      _____


      From: Robin M Crane <patriot451@... <mailto:patriot451@...> >
      To: Dag <dag_gano@... <mailto:dag_gano@...> >


      Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:16 AM
      Subject: Re: Dag on "Corporations"!





      Dag, it may make you feel good to think that those who disagree with you are ignorant, but we are not. We KNOW that corporations are creatures of the state and that they are daily growing more powerful. But you are NOT going to eliminate either the state or corporations.





      Liberals propose action by citizens to bring both under control. Your position destroys any hope of effectiveness.




      Sent from my iPad, by Robin Crane







      On Jul 10, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Dag <dag_gano@... <mailto:dag_gano@...> > wrote:


      My gosh, the ignorance of the America people is stunning.





      As I just said in another email:





      Without a government-issued corporate charter, there is no such thing as a corporation. Without a government charter, there are only partnerships. In a partnership, the individual owners are personally liable for any misdeeds (yeah, yeah, yeah... LLCs, etc. -- really just other forms of government charters).





      Here's where corporations are created in California -- every state has one:








      Business Entities - California Secretary of State <http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/be/>












      <http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/be/>



















      <http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/be/> Business Entities - California Secretary of State


      Business Entities Section main webpage.







      <http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/be/> View on www.sos.ca.gov


      Preview by Yahoo






      [Bo7b:] ---------------------


      [Bo7b:]


      Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river.


      ~Nikita Khrushchev, Russian Soviet politician





      When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President; I'm beginning to believe it.


      ~Quoted in 'Clarence Darrow for the Defense' by Irving Stone.





      Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel.


      ~John Quinton, American actor/writer





      --bob & lou









      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Algae5636@...
      First you ve got some explaining to do. You have characterized the free market as a place where people do win-win transactions. Now you tell me the
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 12, 2014
        First you've got some explaining to do.
        You have characterized the free market as a place where people do "win-win" transactions.
        Now you tell me the free-market buyer and seller are both trying to get more than they give-- i.e., both are trying to make the transaction a "win-lose".
        Make up your mind.
        :-)








        -----Original Message-----
        From: Bob Wynman <bobalou@...>
        Sent: Fri, Jul 11, 2014 10:32 pm
        Subject: Al on the Win-win Free market?






        Please to ‘splain what you mean on that one, Al.

        In a free market, people buy and sell. If the buyer doesn’t think (s)he’s getting more value than (s)he’s giving, no transaction happens & if the seller doesn’t think (s)he’s getting more value than (s)he’s giving, no transaction happens.

        ‘tis only when both parties think they’re getting more value than they’re giving that a transaction takes place & both win.

        So what’s this “there are always more losers than winners” idea mean??

        Thanks for your clarification, Al.

        --bob

        From: algae5636@... [mailto:algae5636@...]
        Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 9:57 PM
        Subject: Re: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??

        Lol.
        Perhaps you've never noticed that in competitive endeavors such as a market, there are always more losers than winners, besides which a competition only generates enough rewards to take care of its winners.
        So the organization called the "market" always creates a demand for a second organization that will make sure the losers are taken care of one way or another-- including by force if need be.
        Expecting the "free market" to be a "win-win" for the majority of the people in it is, in the end, just another form of expecting everyone to be above average at the same time.


        :-)





        -----Original Message-----
        From: Bob Wynman <bobalou@...>
        Sent: Fri, Jul 11, 2014 6:27 pm
        Subject: RE: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??




        No customers for such a product in a free society, Dag.





        When the win-win free market society is built, why would anyone support the idea of being ruled by a win-lose bureaucrat-run State??





        --bob







        From: WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 5:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??
















        If there were no state, what would stop someone from creating one - most likely a really bad one?










        Nature abhors a vacuum.






















        From: "'Bob Wynman' bobalou@... [WHATNOWDEBATE]" <WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:46 PM
        Subject: RE: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??


















        We agree, Dag, ‘cept for your claim that the power of the State, which you call “government” here, can be limited one it’s given to the State. THAT is utopian thinking … and I surely do understand it, since it was also MY thinking for 40+ years.









        --bob
















        From: WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 7:58 AM


        Subject: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Corporations"!






















        The idea that you can control BIG government is a fantasy. I'm not for NO government, but government must be severely limited. Originally, ours was. Over the last 100+ years it has spilled over its banks, due in large part to citizens who demanded it (Progressives and Liberals). One only need look at all the ways government intrudes into our lives and continues to gain illegitimate power to see that this idea that we can control it is a dream that can never come true. And even if it could, there would always be a large segment of the population who's rights would be violated.



































        From: Robin M Crane <patriot451@...>
        To: Dag <dag_gano@...>


        Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:16 AM
        Subject: Re: Dag on "Corporations"!
















        Dag, it may make you feel good to think that those who disagree with you are ignorant, but we are not. We KNOW that corporations are creatures of the state and that they are daily growing more powerful. But you are NOT going to eliminate either the state or corporations.













        Liberals propose action by citizens to bring both under control. Your position destroys any hope of effectiveness.








        Sent from my iPad, by Robin Crane


















        On Jul 10, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Dag <dag_gano@...> wrote:










        My gosh, the ignorance of the America people is stunning.













        As I just said in another email:













        Without a government-issued corporate charter, there is no such thing as a corporation. Without a government charter, there are only partnerships. In a partnership, the individual owners are personally liable for any misdeeds (yeah, yeah, yeah... LLCs, etc. -- really just other forms of government charters).













        Here's where corporations are created in California -- every state has one:




















        Business Entities - California Secretary of State





















































































        Business Entities - California Secretary of State






        Business Entities Section main webpage.


















        View on www.sos.ca.gov






        Preview by Yahoo






























































        [Bo7b:] ---------------------




        [Bo7b:]




        Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river.




        ~Nikita Khrushchev, Russian Soviet politician









        When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President; I'm beginning to believe it.




        ~Quoted in 'Clarence Darrow for the Defense' by Irving Stone.









        Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel.




        ~John Quinton, American actor/writer









        --bob & lou

































        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Algae5636@...
        Dave-- You didn t get gas to win , you got gas to go down the road. And the transaction was an equality-- $10 = 2.5 gallons . So why frame the transaction in
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 12, 2014
          Dave--
          You didn't get gas to "win", you got gas to go down the road.
          And the transaction was an equality-- "$10 = 2.5 gallons".


          So why frame the transaction in a win/lose context?
          :-)





          -----Original Message-----

          From: Dave <davidwin@...>
          Sent: Sat, Jul 12, 2014 10:53 am
          Subject: RE: Al on the Win-win Free market?












          From:algae5636@... [mailto:algae5636@...]
          Subject: Re: Al on the Win-winFree market?





          First you'vegot some explaining to do.
          You have characterized the free market as a place where people do"win-win" transactions.
          Now you tell me the free-market buyer and seller are both trying to get morethan they give-- i.e., both are trying to make the transaction a"win-lose".
          Make up your mind.






          Win andloose and the value of what one gains and one gives in return are all value judgmentsunique to the individual. I win when I buy gas for the car, valuing the gasmore than the money. The gas station wins valuing the cash more than the gaswhich they buy wholesale. So we each win, and no one loses.







          -----OriginalMessage-----
          From: Bob Wynman <bobalou@...>
          Sent: Fri, Jul 11, 2014 10:32 pm
          Subject: Al on the Win-win Free market?




          Pleaseto ‘splain what you mean on that one, Al.





          In afree market, people buy and sell. If the buyer doesn’t think(s)he’s getting more value than (s)he’s giving, no transactionhappens & if the seller doesn’t think (s)he’s getting morevalue than (s)he’s giving, no transaction happens.





          ‘tisonly when both parties think they’re getting more value thanthey’re giving that a transaction takes place & both win.





          Sowhat’s this “there are always morelosers than winners” idea mean??





          Thanksfor your clarification, Al.





          --bob





          From: algae5636@... [mailto:algae5636@...]
          Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 9:57PM
          Subject: Re: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??





          Lol.
          Perhaps you've never noticed that in competitive endeavors such as a market,there are always more losers than winners, besides which a competition onlygenerates enough rewards to take care of its winners.
          So the organization called the "market" always creates a demand for asecond organization that will make sure the losers are taken care of one way oranother-- including by force if need be.
          Expecting the "free market" to be a "win-win" for themajority of the people in it is, in the end, just another form of expectingeveryone to be above average at the same time.




          :-)









          -----Original Message-----
          From: Bob Wynman <bobalou@...>
          Sent: Fri, Jul 11, 2014 6:27 pm
          Subject: RE: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dagon "Limiting the Power of the State??






          Nocustomers for such a product in a free society, Dag.









          Whenthe win-win free market society is built, why would anyone support the idea ofbeing ruled by a win-lose bureaucrat-run State??









          --bob











          From: WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com[mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 5:12PM
          Subject: Re: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??






















          Ifthere were no state, what would stop someone from creating one - most likely areally bad one?













          Nature abhors a vacuum.






























          From: "'Bob Wynman' bobalou@... [WHATNOWDEBATE]"<WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:46PM
          Subject: RE: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Limiting the Power of the State??
























          We agree, Dag,‘cept for your claim that the power of the State, which you call“government” here, can be limited one it’s given to theState. THAT is utopian thinking … and I surely do understand it,since it was also MY thinking for 40+ years.













          --bob






















          From: WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WHATNOWDEBATE@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 7:58AM


          Subject: [WHATNOWDEBATE] Re: Dag on "Corporations"!




























          Theidea that you can control BIG government is a fantasy. I'm not for NOgovernment, but government must be severely limited. Originally, ours was. Overthe last 100+ years it has spilled over its banks, due in large part tocitizens who demanded it (Progressives and Liberals). One only need look at allthe ways government intrudes into our lives and continues to gain illegitimatepower to see that this idea that we can control it is a dream that can nevercome true. And even if it could, there would always be a large segment of thepopulation who's rights would be violated.













































          From: Robin M Crane <patriot451@...>
          To: Dag<dag_gano@...>


          Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:16AM
          Subject: Re: Dag on "Corporations"!



















          Dag, itmay make you feel good to think that those who disagree with you are ignorant,but we are not. We KNOW that corporations are creatures of the state andthat they are daily growing more powerful. But you are NOT going toeliminate either the state or corporations.

















          Liberalspropose action by citizens to bring both under control. Your positiondestroys any hope of effectiveness.










          Sent from my iPad, by Robin Crane





















          On Jul 10, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Dag<dag_gano@...> wrote:












          My gosh, the ignorance of the America people is stunning.

















          As I just said in another email:

















          Without a government-issued corporate charter, there is no suchthing as a corporation. Without a government charter, there are onlypartnerships. In a partnership, the individual owners are personally liable forany misdeeds (yeah, yeah, yeah... LLCs, etc. -- really just other forms ofgovernment charters).

















          Here's where corporations are created in California -- every state has one:


























          BusinessEntities - California Secretary of State










































































































          Business Entities - California Secretary of State








          Business Entities Section main webpage.






















          View on www.sos.ca.gov








          Preview by Yahoo






























































          [Bo7b:] ---------------------






          [Bo7b:]






          Politiciansare the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is noriver.






          ~NikitaKhrushchev, Russian Soviet politician













          When Iwas a boy I was told that anybody could become President; I'm beginning tobelieve it.






          ~Quotedin 'Clarence Darrow for the Defense' by Irving Stone.













          Politiciansare people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buysome more tunnel.






          ~JohnQuinton, American actor/writer













          --bob & lou









































          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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