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"We" Are NOT the USG

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  • Bob Wynman
    Randist Bo7b aka Bob Wynman WWP Email Member (bobalou@wynman.com) Sandy, be not so harsh on thineself. Swallow not the myth that we are our outta control
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 5, 2013
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      Randist Bo7b aka Bob Wynman WWP Email Member (bobalou@...) Sandy, be not so harsh on thineself. Swallow not the myth that "we" are our outta control State. "We" are not $17T in debt. the damned USG is. Despite the indoctrination of the State-controlled schools & media, "We" are not responsible for the debts of the politicians who've been lying to everyone for centuries. Anyone stupid enough to believe the lies of politicians deserves to be left holding the bag when the USG defaults on its debts.

      --bob & lou


      Bob writes:

      the increased trend of the USG to steal from productive people for the benefit of politicians and their friends.

      Sad but true....and we are now 17 TRILLION dollars in debt because the government won't stop stealing our money and giving it away to everyone with their hand out.

      Sandy

      Randist Bo7b aka Bob Wynman WWP Email Member (bobalou@...) Far as I know, Mexico has always been a socialist dictatorship. The only "capitalism in Mexico has been forced into the "black market", which operates quite peacefully 'tis the State gets involved, as in the drug biz.
      >
      > The reason for the influx of parasitic types of immigrants (and the outflow of productive, creative brains, wealth and jobs) is the increased trend of the USG to steal from productive people for the benefit of politicians and their friends.
      >
      > --bob
      >

      > From: 666
      that's the system they had in Mexico until recently.
      > No food stamps, no unemployment insurance, no Medicaid or Medicare.
      > What happened as a result of all these good capitalist ways was that over
      > ten percent of the population moved up north to the USA.
      >
      Randist Bo7b aka Bob Wynman WWP Email Member (bobalou@...) Rand had a rather different view of capitalism, as did Galambos:
      >
      > "Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.
      > The recognition of individual rights entails the banishment of physical force from human relationships: basically, rights can be violated only by means of force. In a capitalist society, no man or group may initiate the use of physical force against others. The only function of the government, in such a society, is the task of protecting manâ?Ts rights, i.e., the task of protecting him from physical force; the government acts as the agent of manâ?Ts right of self-defense, and may use force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use; thus the government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of force under objective control.
      >
      >
      >
      > â?oWhat Is Capitalism?â?
      > Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 19 "
      >
    • Len Ritchey
      Len Ritchey WWP Email Member and AskaHorse (askahorse@letsgofirst) ASK A HORSE Friday, April 5th, 2013 Bob and Lou, Sandy, We may not be responsible for USG
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 5, 2013
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        Len Ritchey WWP Email Member and AskaHorse (askahorse@letsgofirst) ASK A HORSE



        Friday,

        April 5th, 2013



        Bob and Lou, Sandy,



        We may not be "responsible" for USG 'debt.' However, we allowed USG public officials to run up public debt with citizenry property as collateral.



        We do bear brunt of USG debt, regardless how we view our 'responsibility.' Public officials confiscate our property to pay their bills.



        Like it or not, public officials will keep confiscating our property to pay their (public) bills until we stop them. Or, so it seems to me.



        Don't see how we'll stop them without putting together an out-and-out revolt of sorts. Core of revolt would be to decentralize power, abolish direct taxation, and restore local control. Outcome would be closer to notion of a 'voluntary society.'



        Best Wishes,



        Len Ritchey



        _____

        From: SpaceLand@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SpaceLand@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Wynman
        Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 3:47 AM
        To: World-wide_Politics@yahoogroups.com; whatnowdebate@yahoogroups.com; spaceland@yahoogroups.com; Lets_Discuss_Anything@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SpaceLand] [LDA] "We" Are NOT the USG





        Sandy, be not so harsh on thineself. Swallow not the myth that "we" are our outta control State. "We" are not $17T in debt. the damned USG is. Despite the indoctrination of the State-controlled schools & media, "We" are not responsible for the debts of the politicians who've been lying to everyone for centuries. Anyone stupid enough to believe the lies of politicians deserves to be left holding the bag when the USG defaults on its debts.



        --bob & lou






        ----- Original Message -----

        From: DLO <mailto:dlo_3us2001@...>

        To: Lets_Discuss_Anything@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 8:30 PM

        Subject: 3/14/06 hi set Re: [LDA] Chesterton & Rand on Capitalism





        Bob writes:

        the increased trend of the USG to steal from productive people for the benefit of politicians and their friends.

        Sad but true....and we are now 17 TRILLION dollars in debt because the government won't stop stealing our money and giving it away to everyone with their hand out.

        Sandy

        --- In Lets_Discuss_Anything@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Wynman" <bobalou@...> wrote:
        >
        > Far as I know, Mexico has always been a socialist dictatorship. The only "capitalism in Mexico has been forced into the "black market", which operates quite peacefully 'tis the State gets involved, as in the drug biz.
        >
        > The reason for the influx of parasitic types of immigrants (and the outflow of productive, creative brains, wealth and jobs) is the increased trend of the USG to steal from productive people for the benefit of politicians and their friends.
        >
        > --bob
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: 666
        > To: Lets_Discuss_Anything@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Lets_Discuss_Anything%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 7:45 AM
        > Subject: Re: [LDA] Chesterton & Rand on Capitalism
        >
        >
        > that's the system they had in Mexico until recently.
        > No food stamps, no unemployment insurance, no Medicaid or Medicare.
        > What happened as a result of all these good capitalist ways was that over
        > ten percent of the population moved up north to the USA.
        >
        >
        > On 4/4/2013 1:51 AM, Bob Wynman wrote:
        >
        >
        > 
        >
        > Rand had a rather different view of capitalism, as did Galambos:
        >
        > "Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.
        > The recognition of individual rights entails the banishment of physical force from human relationships: basically, rights can be violated only by means of force. In a capitalist society, no man or group may initiate the use of physical force against others. The only function of the government, in such a society, is the task of protecting man’s rights, i.e., the task of protecting him from physical force; the government acts as the agent of man’s right of self-defense, and may use force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use; thus the government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of force under objective control.
        >
        >
        >
        > “What Is Capitalism?”
        > Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 19 "
        >
        >
        >
        > --bob & lou
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: J. Keen Holland
        > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 10:24 PM
        > Subject: Re: Silly Debates re fascism vs. communism
        >
        >
        > G.K. Chesterton had a rather similar assessment of capitalism. He said the question was not whether the perpetuation of capitalism could be engineered but how soon its inability to stand would be apparent.
        >
        > The death of communism started as soon it was put into actual practice and people could see the inevitable results
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Bob Wynman <bobalou@...>
        > Sent: Wed, Apr 3, 2013 11:20 pm
        > Subject: Re: Silly Debates re fascism vs. communism
        >
        >
        > RE: "You are living under socialism and capitalism."
        >
        > --Well, Shady, yeah, sorta. The "mixture of socialism & capitalism" ("mixed economy") under which we & the rest of the subjects of the "major countries" are living must not be confused with capitalism,
        >
        > RE: "All in all, it works well."
        >
        > --Yes, it works well for the politicians of the State and the friends with whom they share the stolen loot. And yes, it works "well" for the masses who notice that they're better off than their grandparents in the area of better refrigerators, TeeVees, computers, jet airplanes, etc. (the benefits of the technological progress made possible by the relative freedom created by Paine's American Revolution).
        >
        > However, relative to the unimaginable quality of life, the enduring peace, prosperity and freedom of the Voluntary Society, our present Fabian Fascist Democracy, with its perpetual war, poverty and servitude is not "working well" at all.
        >
        > RE: " There are about 12 communist left in the whole world and the youngest is 109 year old."
        >
        > --There are considerably more & considerably younger & many of them are comfortably ensconced as professors in US universities, quietly indoctrinating our young people with the destructive ideologies of altruism/collectivism. The results of their activities can be seen all around us, particularly in DC & other haunts of statist thugs.
        >
        > RE: "The death of communism started when the Berlin wall came down and the USSR was broken into little bittie pieces"
        >
        > --Naah, that stuff was near the end. The death of communism started as soon it was put into actual practice and people could see the inevitable results: famine, starvation, death, suffering, murder, etc.. And yet, it took 70 years of observation before those folks in the USSR finally had enough.
        >
        > And, Shady, the Fascist Democracy of the present USA is not a big improvement overt communism. The whole left-wing/right-wing BS is a false alternative; both wings of the same tyrannical coercive Statist bird.
        >
        > "Left wing" (& "liberals", "democrats") leads to communism (Marx I--read the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto, 1848, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto).
        >
        > "Right wing" (& "conservatives", "republicans") leads to corporate fascism (Marx II--read "Das Kapital", 1867, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital)
        >
        > The myth that they're the only alternatives and that they're opposites, or even significantly different, has been successfully embedded into most American brains by 4-5 generations of State-controlled schools and media; the same mechanism that has caused folks to believe that their government = their country and that their only choice for health is drugs vs. surgery.
        >
        > The Liberals' "War on Poverty" and the Conservatives' "War on Drugs" are both disastrous parts of the State's War on Freedom.
        >
        > Check the Shortest Quiz, http://www.theadvocates.org
        >
        > --bob & lou
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: ShadysLife@...
        > To: bobalou@... ; earl9876@... ; colony14@... ; oldpolitico@...
        > Cc: judyfuller007@... ; kaltai@... ; konola@... ; lenaprimeaux@... ; lfeverest@... ; maximus475@... ; mckinneyhunter2@... ; mcmast@... ; microdhses@... ; neilc@... ; onepocketplayer@... ; pasharabit@... ; patriot451@... ; paul_dunk@... ; paul.dunk@... ; postherguy@... ; predatorbc@... ; rebecca.plunkett@... ; rgellar000@... ; rhgusn@... ; rockysma1@... ; sandysbeau@... ; scorpiolady1@... ; sergeantfreedom@... ; sweetpea88mlc@... ; tdietlin@... ; usmcdaughter1@... ; vandoran.heather@... ; vbboyd123456@... ; wakeupwayup@... ; wilemd@...
        > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 6:36 PM
        > Subject: Re: Silly Debates re fascism vs. communism
        >
        >
        > You are living under socialism and capitalism. All the major country's in the world live under both.This includes America, Russia and China. All in all, it works well. There are about 12 communist left in the whole world and the youngest is 109 year old. The death of communism started when the Berlin wall came down and the USSR was broken into little bittie pieces. If you insist on typing about something, at least have some idea what you're typing about.
        > Shady
        >
        > In a message dated 4/3/2013 9:10:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bobalou@... writes:
        > Dine on catshit or dogshit, eh?
        >
        > Seriously, folks one question:
        >
        > What is the point of debating about the infinitesimal differences 'twixt fascism or communism or any other brand of socialism??!?
        >
        > They're all right & left wings of the same tyrannical bird, THE STATE. Does it really matter if we're ruled by Hitler or by Stalin? By the thugs in DC or Sacramento??
        >
        > If you all really WANT to be ruled, then, fine, continue the debate about who you're gonna elect to lie to you, steal from you, imprison you, torture you and kill you. Fun!
        >
        > If you prefer NOT to be ruled, then how 'bout learning how to build the Voluntary Society, WITHOUT the damned coercive State & create lasting peace, prosperity and freedom, rather than the present condition of perpetual war, poverty and servitude!!
        >
        > An interesting start in this regard can be obtained, mostly FREE:
        >
        > 1-- Dave Woodward & Nancy Rhyme Snelson: The Win-Win Paradigm, www.suscivinst.com/store.
        >
        > 2--Fred Marks is making the work of Andrew Galambos available ... FREE www.CapitalismTheLiberalRevolution.com.
        >
        > 2--Stefan Molyneux: thousands of hours of information FREE www.FreeDomainRadio.com.
        >
        > 4--Dennis Riness: Civilization Engineering DVD & syllabus www.CivilizationEngineering.com.
        >
        > 5--Bonnie Lange: V-76, "The Declaration,Thomas Paine & Your Freedom" FREE www.Galambos.com.
        >
        > & Join us at Libertopia in August in San Diego (www.Libertopia.org)!
        >
        > --bob & lou
        > (We've no financial interest in any of these sites or products.)
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: J. Keen Holland
        > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 4:05 PM
        > Subject: Re: Rand Pail and Mmussolini
        >
        >
        > Historically, fascist regimes have been distinguished from their socialist brethren the communists by their identification of the state with some concept(s) of race/kinship, culture and history with a shared destiny; that is, they have been fundamentally nationalist and frequently expansionist despite the two tendencies being somewhat at cross purposes. Communists, OTOH, claim to speak in the name of a social class, typically industrial labor,and portray the interests of the state as inseparable from the interests of that class, but they usually see that class as an international entity and base their own expansionist tendencies on that foundation.
        >
        >
        > If we look at Mussolini's Fascist Party in Italy which came to power in 1922, we see the classic case of a fascist regime. There were appeals to Italian unity, identification of modern Italy witt the history of the Roman empire, expansionism directed at places near (Montenegro) and far (the Horn of Africa), and so on. Mussolinin came to fascism by way of the Italian socialists and it shows. Hitler came to National Socialism by way of Viennese anti-semitism and Aryan mysticism and it shows in the peculiarities of his regime. The Peronist movement in Argentina shared some of this atmosphere although it was often more Marxist in its rhetoric. Salazar in Portugal clung despertely to the remnants of its once-great colonial empire as a symbol of some greater national destiny. (This list is not intended to be exhaustive.)
        >
        >
        > Obama's regime really shows very few traces of fascism; certainly not enough to brand it fascist on a par with Mussolini in Italy. On the contrary, Obama shows signs of basing his politics on class interests (the race factor here is a special case of class politics - there is little attempt to appeal to any specifically American history and/or culture that cuts across class lines). Lest his embrace of a highly regulated, but mixed (i.e., both private and public ownershipi) economy be cited as evidence of a specifically fascist orientation, one ought to examine the record of Lenin's New Economic Policy of the 1920s, Tito's Yugoslavia, or post-Mao generation China.
        > A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that … it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
        > â€" Milton Friedman
        >
        > The free market rewards those who are most productive, those who serve consumers most efficiently, whereas government intervention on behalf of consumers rewards those who produce the least and operate most inefficiently. Those opposed methods of reward have different effects on the production process; the market method encourages production, whereas the coercive government method takes away the incentive to produce. Which method will be most likely to alleviate poverty ought to perfectly clear.
        >
        > â€" Paul L. Poirot
        >
        > --bob & lou
        >
      • Bob Wynman
        Randist Bo7b aka Bob Wynman WWP Email Member (bobalou@wynman.com) Thanks, Len. As per usual, you re quite correct in that the Outcome would be closer to
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 6, 2013
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          Randist Bo7b aka Bob Wynman WWP Email Member (bobalou@...) Thanks, Len. As per usual, you're quite correct in that the Outcome would be closer to notion of a 'voluntary society.'.

          I do have a coupe questions however, RE: "we allowed USG public officials to run up public debt with citizenry property as collateral."

          --How do you figure "we" could have prevented those USG public officials from "running up that debt"??

          Vote against them?? I never voted for any of them ... that doesn't seem very effective.

          Refuse to pay taxes?? After they send letters & demand your presence in court then steal your property if you continue to refuse, then incarcerate you if you continue to refuse, then shoot you if you attempt escape .... that doesn't seem very effective.

          Kill them?? They're quickly replaced with worse thugs & more State control of our lives is added ... & if caught, you get killed anyway ... that doesn't seem very effective.

          Fanning the flames of liberty by throwing ourselves into the furnace does not seem like a winning strategy.

          I've come to understand that Ben's, Stefan Molyneux's, Galambos, Rand's strategy of helping the few intellectually-curious, rationally-thinking humans to learn the concepts of freedom and the Voluntary Society is probably our only chance to avoid the collapse of our civilization & the premature extinction of our species.

          An interesting start in this regard can be obtained, mostly FREE:

          1-- Dave Woodward & Nancy Rhyme Snelson: The Win-Win Paradigm, www.suscivinst.com/store.

          2--Fred Marks is making the work of Andrew Galambos available ... FREE www.CapitalismTheLiberalRevolution.com.

          2--Stefan Molyneux: thousands of hours of information FREE www.FreeDomainRadio.com.

          4--Dennis Riness: Civilization Engineering DVD & syllabus www.CivilizationEngineering.com.

          5--Bonnie Lange: V-76, "The Declaration,Thomas Paine & Your Freedom" FREE www.Galambos.com.

          & Join us at Libertopia in August in San Diego (www.Libertopia.org)!

          --bob & lou
          (We've no financial interest in any of these sites or products.)

          --bob


          Len Ritchey WWP Email Member and AskaHorse (askahorse@letsgofirst) ASK A HORSE

          Friday,

          April 5th, 2013

          Bob and Lou, Sandy,

          We may not be "responsible" for USG 'debt.' However, we allowed USG public officials to run up public debt with citizenry property as collateral.

          We do bear brunt of USG debt, regardless how we view our 'responsibility.' Public officials confiscate our property to pay their bills.

          Like it or not, public officials will keep confiscating our property to pay their (public) bills until we stop them. Or, so it seems to me.

          Don't see how we'll stop them without putting together an out-and-out revolt of sorts. Core of revolt would be to decentralize power, abolish direct taxation, and restore local control. Outcome would be closer to notion of a 'voluntary society.'

          Best Wishes,

          Len Ritchey

          Randist Bo7b aka Bob Wynman WWP Email Member (bobalou@...) Sandy, be not so harsh on thineself. Swallow not the myth that "we" are our outta control State. "We" are not $17T in debt. the damned USG is. Despite the indoctrination of the State-controlled schools & media, "We" are not responsible for the debts of the politicians who've been lying to everyone for centuries. Anyone stupid enough to believe the lies of politicians deserves to be left holding the bag when the USG defaults on its debts.

          --bob & lou


          From: DLO <mailto:dlo_3us2001@...>


          Bob writes:

          the increased trend of the USG to steal from productive people for the benefit of politicians and their friends.

          Sad but true....and we are now 17 TRILLION dollars in debt because the government won't stop stealing our money and giving it away to everyone with their hand out.

          Sandy
        • Len Ritchey
          Len Ritchey WWP Email Member and AskaHorse (askahorse@letsgofirst) ASK A HORSE Sunday, April 7th, 2013 Bob and Lou, Perceptive, penetrating points. MANY
          Message 4 of 4 , Apr 7, 2013
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            Len Ritchey WWP Email Member and AskaHorse (askahorse@letsgofirst) ASK A HORSE



            Sunday,

            April 7th, 2013



            Bob and Lou,



            Perceptive, penetrating points. MANY THANKS for attending to this topic. There would be far less USG (and all 'government) annoyances were we to master citizen sovereignty. Tyrants would have to seek more fertile hunting grounds.



            America's founders left a blueprint for Liberty-based government. "We" have opted to let it be adulterated by paternalism and progressivism. Doing so has weakened our character and made us victims to ambitious public officials masquerading as caretakers.



            Regrets, no easy fix.



            "We," in "we allowed USG public officials to run up public debt with citizenry property as collateral." is, from my perspective, "We, the American People."



            You are quite right about incurring USG punitive fury by blatant resistance. Individual resistance is, by-and-large, too costly. Mr. Obama's machine, however, showed one and all community organizing effectiveness.



            Nor, will voting get us on track - as far as I can tell. Voting, though, is how public officials gain power to legislate, tax, and regulate. "We" vote them in. They will, in my estimation, go about doing as they see fit till we stop them by decentralizing power and curbing their authority to legislate, tax, and regulate.



            "We" tend to defer to public officials for solutions to far too many socio-financial-economic problems of everyday life. When a public official convinces more than half of us voters she's going to have 'someone else' pay, she'll get enough votes to ply her ideological trade. Result is public deficit spending, escalating public debt, and attempts to disarm Americans.



            My 'answer' is some form of Citizen-Controlled Taxation (CCT) (http://citizencontrolledtaxation.com). It would require massive, nationwide commitment. Implemented, CCT would transfer virtually all legislative, taxation, and regulatory measures under local control - - - no overreaching, overriding authority from other 'government' levels. America's founders, near as I can tell, never intended centralized planning or centralized power. Centralized authority had one purpose - protect America's shores and borders.



            CCT is, structure-reform-wise, tantamount to an out-and-out revolution. It is a revolution aimed at revitalizing self-government through staunchly proactive citizen sovereignty.



            Very much appreciate your on-going efforts at shoring up American Liberty. There are scores of individuals and groups with similar goals. Marshal them, we can't lose . . . in my ever-to-be-humble opinion. Reason is, Liberty works; tyranny, eventually, fails because it can't be sustained, regardless how Charismatic a Barack Obama happens to be. Or, how deluded "We, the American People" allow ourselves to be.



            Best Wishes,



            Len Ritchey

            Randist Bo7b aka Bob Wynman WWP Email Member (bobalou@...) Thanks, Len. As per usual, you're quite correct in that the Outcome would be closer to notion of a 'voluntary society.'.



            I do have a coupe questions however, RE: "we allowed USG public officials to run up public debt with citizenry property as collateral."



            --How do you figure "we" could have prevented those USG public officials from "running up that debt"??



            Vote against them?? I never voted for any of them ... that doesn't seem very effective.



            Refuse to pay taxes?? After they send letters & demand your presence in court then steal your property if you continue to refuse, then incarcerate you if you continue to refuse, then shoot you if you attempt escape .... that doesn't seem very effective.



            Kill them?? They're quickly replaced with worse thugs & more State control of our lives is added ... & if caught, you get killed anyway ... that doesn't seem very effective.



            Fanning the flames of liberty by throwing ourselves into the furnace does not seem like a winning strategy.



            I've come to understand that Ben's, Stefan Molyneux's, Galambos, Rand's strategy of helping the few intellectually-curious, rationally-thinking humans to learn the concepts of freedom and the Voluntary Society is probably our only chance to avoid the collapse of our civilization & the premature extinction of our species.



            An interesting start in this regard can be obtained, mostly FREE:

            1-- Dave Woodward & Nancy Rhyme Snelson: The Win-Win Paradigm, www.suscivinst.com/store.

            2--Fred Marks is making the work of Andrew Galambos available ... FREE www.CapitalismTheLiberalRevolution.com.

            2--Stefan Molyneux: thousands of hours of information FREE www.FreeDomainRadio.com.

            4--Dennis Riness: Civilization Engineering DVD & syllabus www.CivilizationEngineering.com.

            5--Bonnie Lange: V-76, "The Declaration,Thomas Paine & Your Freedom" FREE www.Galambos.com.

            & Join us at Libertopia in August in San Diego (www.Libertopia.org)!



            --bob & lou
            (We've no financial interest in any of these sites or products.)
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