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Re: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano Tom's Suggestions

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  • Clement Aigbogun
    I was just wondering if the use of another biomass substance that is easy to ignite and would continue to burn would suffice. Now this is very important
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 3, 2013
      I was just wondering if the use of another biomass substance that is easy to ignite and would continue to burn would suffice. Now this is very important because of the gas content and the chance to direct steam from within to the charcoal overhead.this powdered biomass you can spread it out to form the shape of a funnel just under the nozzle before loading the wood. What do you think?
      C
      ------------------------------
      On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 12:33 PM GMT-12:00 Greg Manning wrote:

      > Tom, you are "VERY" correct.
      >
      >gasifiers work on charcoal, the nozzles, create the charcoal (easy
      >explanation)m abd the heat needed to chemically reduce the charcoal.
      >
      >Greg
      >
      >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:17 AM, TomC <ginfizz20@...> wrote:
      >
      >> It's me again;
      >> I thought of this after I went to bed. YOU MUST START YOUR GASIFIER FOR
      >> THE FIRST TIME USING "CHARCOAL" not wood!!! If you don't have any charcoal
      >> go to a store that sells barbeque products and get a bag of "HARD WOOD
      >> CHUNK" CHARCOAL (not briquets). Break the chunks up into marble or dice
      >> sized pieces. Fill your gasifier from the grate up to just above the
      >> nozzles with these. Then put your wood in. If you start with "wood" in the
      >> bottom you will generate a lot of tar until the unit reaches an equilibrium
      >> where it makes it's own charcoal. TomC
      >>
      >> --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "TomC" <ginfizz20@...> wrote:
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Hello again Paul and Group;
      >> > I wasn't with you when you made your run so I am just trying to
      >> visualize what went on. My impression is that you had so much pressure that
      >> it caused the lid to leak. This allowed the flame to follow the air flow up
      >> towards the lid at the same time air/flame was heading to the restrictor.
      >> If the pressure had not been so high, the lid may have sealed and the
      >> air/flame would not have gone in that direction. Hot air has mass and will
      >> flow from a high pressure area to a low pressure area. Thus, the high
      >> pressure goes from the vacuum cleaner(blower) to and through the nozzles,
      >> then down through the restrictor, and out into the atmosphere where you try
      >> to "flare" it. From the nozzle tips where the "fire" is, "radiant" heat is
      >> created. Radiant heat has no mass so it will go any and all directions from
      >> the source. The radiant heat that travels upwards dries the wood and
      >> causes Pyrolysis of the wood in the silo. By the time the wood gets to the
      >> area of the nozzles, it should be glowing hot charcoal. I'm glad to hear
      >> that you have a "speed"control on you shop vac. So how much pressure do you
      >> think you were pushing into the gasifier-- would you say it was a pressure
      >> or just a "heavy breeze"??
      >> > About the "bent piece of wire". Stephen came up with that. If you
      >> had no grate and you started filling the gasifier up above the nozzles with
      >> char/ash, the first thing that would happen is the c/a would fall through
      >> the restrictor. As it falls through the restrictor it will NOT leave
      >> straight up and down walls. The c/a that would have been near this up and
      >> down wall will slide into the restrictor leaving the c/a on a slope from
      >> the restrictor to the inside of the fire extinguisher. The slope will be
      >> approximately 30 degrees measuring from the vertical at the center of the
      >> restrictor. If your nozzles are sticking out to far from this c/a slope,
      >> gases can go around behind the nozzles and tar does not get broken down. If
      >> the nozzles are between the wire and the wall of the extinguisher, the c/a
      >> can build up over them. (I'm not sure this would be a bad thing unless it
      >> plugged the nozzles) A "tar dam" acts like a bottomless tin can and holds
      >> the c/a in a vertical wall up to and just above the nozzles. This forces
      >> the a/c (and gases) to go past the hot spot at the nozzle tips thus
      >> breaking down the tars.
      >> > The angled nozzles is again something that Stephen came up with. Up
      >> until he suggested it we mostly ran horizontal nozzles. If your nozzles are
      >> actually 1/4 in. I.S. diameter, then I guess that should be close and the
      >> height of the nozzle circle is probably ok. (Look in the files section for
      >> FAO 72, a government produced booklet. On about pages 61,130,131 are ways
      >> of calculating these. Mike and I were just kind of eyeballing the sizes.
      >> > The Kirby vacuum cleaner I'm talking about is just that-- A Kirby
      >> "up-right" vacuum cleaner. They sold millions of them for years but now
      >> people want more fancy vacuums. I find that all the up-right are alike
      >> except the newer ones have a plastic impeller. The old ones have a metal
      >> impeller (cast Aluminum or pot metal) They were great vacuums in their day
      >> but they are out dated--let the women in your life know you are looking for
      >> one and I bet with a little asking around you will find someone who has one
      >> they no longer use.
      >> > Good luck. I have an "experimental" thing you might want to try. I will
      >> post it tomorrow. It is late now so got to go. TomC
      >> >
      >> > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "Paul A. Cianciolo" <paulc@> wrote:
      >> > >
      >> > > Hello Tom,
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > I will try to comment on the points you made.
      >> > >
      >> > > Don't take any blame for the pressurization scheme, you may have
      >> suggested
      >> > > it but I implemented it , and learned from it so all is good.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > I will build a manometer which I can use as a test instrument that is
      >> stable
      >> > > and repeatable. I have a variac connected to the blow to control the
      >> > > pressure, a variac is and adjustable transformer.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > On the nozzle sizes, they are already 1/4" black iron pipe nipples,
      >> maybe
      >> > > they look bigger in the pictures.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > On the nozzle height I just measured and the nozzle is 1" above the
      >> hot
      >> > > well, which puts it 3" above the restriction. Is this ok?
      >> > >
      >> > > The nozzles are also not angled down on the 60 degree angle, they just
      >> enter
      >> > > the side of the burn tube and reach in so far that they are just reach
      >> the
      >> > > side of the hot well.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > I think I understand what you mean about the bent wire and using it as
      >> a
      >> > > guide to the height nozzle tube entry. I will measure that up and
      >> maybe get
      >> > > some of those fancy angle plates that Stephen sells.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > Do you have a picture of what the internal pump on that Kirby vacuum or
      >> > > maybe a model # of the vac, I can start looking for one of those.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > Work is not a problem, I just appreciate being able to get suggestions
      >> from
      >> > > folks on this list.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > Thank you Tom
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > Paul A. Cianciolo
      >> > >
      >> > > W1VLF
      >> > >
      >> > > <http://www.rescueelectronics.com/> http://www.rescueelectronics.com/
      >> > >
      >> > > Our business computer network is powered exclusively by solar and wind
      >> > > power.
      >> > >
      >> > > Converting Photons to Electrons for over 20 years
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On
      >> Behalf Of
      >> > > TomC
      >> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM
      >> > > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
      >> > > Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > Hello Paul;
      >> > > I kind of take blame for your failure (learning curve) today. I
      >> suggested
      >> > > that you run pressure. I think you only did part of what I said. I also
      >> > > suggested that you put a manometer in your manifold so that you would
      >> know
      >> > > what kind of pressure you were putting on the system. Remember we are
      >> only
      >> > > pulling and/or pushing about 5 in. of h20; that would be 2/10 ths of 1
      >> psi.
      >> > > You will need a dimmer switch hooked into the electrical system
      >> feeding the
      >> > > shop vac, to slow it down and control the pressure. I hate to see you
      >> spend
      >> > > too much time trying to develop a vacuum source. (I did the same thing
      >> > > several years ago) The best vacuum source I have found is an old Kirby
      >> > > up-right vacuum cleaner. I got one at Goodwill for $7 and when that is
      >> > > hooked up to a dimmer switch, I think it is the ultimate source for a
      >> vacuum
      >> > > supply.(just my opinion) Mike LaRosa may have a point that the gasifier
      >> > > dynamics aren't the same under pressure as under a vacuum. It's just
      >> that
      >> > > they say they aren't but haven't told me how they differ. The main
      >> thing
      >> > > here is; if you push air or pull air, you need a MANOMETER in the
      >> system to
      >> > > know what you are doing. Enough on this subject, I was just trying to
      >> save
      >> > > you some time developing a fan or ejector or something else to create
      >> a flow
      >> > > in the gasifier.
      >> > > Now lets get serious about getting you some gas burning. YOU HAVE TO
      >> MAKE
      >> > > SOME CHANGES!!!. #1.As Mike LaRosa said the diameter of the holes in
      >> you
      >> > > nozzles are too big. I would suggest 1/4 in. dia.
      >> > > #2.As Mike suggested you nozzles are not high enough above the
      >> restrictor
      >> > > They should be raised about 2" from what I see in the pictures
      >> > > #3 This is a little complicated. You have two choices. One (and I
      >> think the
      >> > > best) is the "The Tar Dam" that I suggested. I did put some pictures
      >> of a
      >> > > TAR DAM in the file.
      >> > > OR--You need to take a piece of wire, like coat hangar wire, about 12"
      >> long.
      >> > > Bend it in the middle into a 60 degree angle. Place the point of the
      >> angled
      >> > > wire down in the center of the restriction. Now follow up one leg of
      >> the
      >> > > angle to the new height of the nozzles. The distance from that
      >> intersection
      >> > > to the center of the gasifier times 2 equals the required nozzle
      >> diameter.
      >> > > I realize this is asking for a lot of work but unfortunately, these
      >> are just
      >> > > suggestions to get you closer. I could suggest a way to correct all of
      >> these
      >> > > problems in one simple way. A member by the name of Joseph Monty built
      >> a
      >> > > small gasifier and ran a small Ford car on it. He had a good drawing
      >> in with
      >> > > his pictures on this or the Woodgas Builders Group. I tried to contact
      >> him
      >> > > to see if I could repost his drawing but did not hear from him.TomC
      >> > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WoodGas%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      >> "PAUL"
      >> > > <paulc@> wrote:
      >> > > >
      >> > > > The following is an email I sent to Stephen, but thinking about it
      >> maybe I
      >> > > should post to the group considering the experience.
      >> > > >
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Well today was another run, a burn, or better yet a journey the edge
      >> of
      >> > > hell.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Todays test was a pressure run, instead of trying to vacuum the
      >> gases out
      >> > > of the burn tube,I fashioned a manifold made out of PVC with 3 home
      >> runs of
      >> > > tubing running off to the 3 nozzles.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > A shop vac is providing the pressurized air feeding the manifold.
      >> > > > With the shop vac on low I had good flow and pressure coming out of
      >> the
      >> > > nozzles, checked this before firing up.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Some kindling in the hot well, and blocks of wood in the hopper.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Smoke starts emitting from the vent pipe imediately after the shop
      >> vas was
      >> > > turned on, and in 3 minutes or so the gases out of the flare pipe were
      >> just
      >> > > on the verge of self-sustaining a flame.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Then I notice a number of leaks around the cover of the burner. Cant
      >> have
      >> > > this so I tried foil tape etc. but could not stop the leaks.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > So I decided in ultimate stupidity to fill the rest of the hopper up
      >> with
      >> > > fiberglass insulation. pink stuff. I pressed it in real tight so it
      >> won't
      >> > > leak badly.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > The unit was fine for a couple of minutes, but again the leaks
      >> started and
      >> > > were worse this time. I figured the fire must be burning up instead of
      >> down.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > I tried the flame tube again and the flame stayed lit for about a
      >> minute.
      >> > > Not being able to tolerate the leaks any longer I shut the unit down.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > When ever I lift the cover off, I always lift so if a flame shoots
      >> out it
      >> > > goes away from me. Good thing this time as a big puff of smoke and
      >> flame
      >> > > blew out.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > With the cover was off I found the flame was burning up toward the
      >> cover
      >> > > and not so much down.
      >> > > > The flame must be following the leaks.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Inside were 2 white hot glowing glass tunnels burned down to the
      >> nozzles.
      >> > > > One of the scariest things I have ever seen!!! It was getting a free
      >> > > preview of hell!!!! Molten balls of glass hung to the sides of the
      >> tunnel.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > So I put some snow on the unit and let it go out and cool down.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > I need to learn the meaning of "air tight" I think the flame
      >> followed the
      >> > > air up toward the leak.
      >> > > > Is this true? I mean if there were no leaks in the hopper would the
      >> flame
      >> > > have moved in this direction?
      >> > > >
      >> > > > With a vacuum system, the leaks posed only the problem of adding air
      >> to
      >> > > the fire which would be traveling down in the hot well. And making
      >> tar???
      >> > > >
      >> > > > But with pressure it's a whole different ball game.
      >> > > >
      >> > > >
      >> > > > However I am not discouraged. I learned a lot tonight. A little at a
      >> time
      >> > > I am getting a feel for what is going on inside one of these units.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > PauLC
      >> > > > W1VLF
      >> > > >
      >> > >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
    • TomC
      Mr. C; I think filling the bottom of the gasifier with charcoal is the best thing to do - don t over think this. #1 If you did have such a biomass and packed
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 4, 2013
        Mr. C; I think filling the bottom of the gasifier with charcoal is the best thing to do - don't over think this.
        #1 If you did have such a biomass and packed it around like a funnel, then ignited it; it would oxidize (burn) and turn into a very small amount of "ash" and your funnel would be gone. In running the gasifier AFTER the first run, you would generate your own charcoal for the next run. But, why go to all that trouble when you can just fill the bottom up with charcoal and be done with it.
        #2 If you make a funnel as you said, and put "wood" in on top, the wood will give off gases (pyrolysis) but there will be NO hot spot in the restrictor to "crack" the gases. You will go thru the same tar making process you would have if you did not make this "funnel". The burning funnel may speed up the process so that you don't have to wait so long to get past the tar stage. But again a lot of work for little advantage. TomC

        --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Clement Aigbogun <revicaig@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > I was just wondering if the use of another biomass substance that is easy to ignite and would continue to burn would suffice. Now this is very important because of the gas content and the chance to direct steam from within to the charcoal overhead.this powdered biomass you can spread it out to form the shape of a funnel just under the nozzle before loading the wood. What do you think?
        > C
        > ------------------------------
        > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 12:33 PM GMT-12:00 Greg Manning wrote:
        >
        > > Tom, you are "VERY" correct.
        > >
        > >gasifiers work on charcoal, the nozzles, create the charcoal (easy
        > >explanation)m abd the heat needed to chemically reduce the charcoal.
        > >
        > >Greg
        > >
        > >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:17 AM, TomC <ginfizz20@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >> It's me again;
        > >> I thought of this after I went to bed. YOU MUST START YOUR GASIFIER FOR
        > >> THE FIRST TIME USING "CHARCOAL" not wood!!! If you don't have any charcoal
        > >> go to a store that sells barbeque products and get a bag of "HARD WOOD
        > >> CHUNK" CHARCOAL (not briquets). Break the chunks up into marble or dice
        > >> sized pieces. Fill your gasifier from the grate up to just above the
        > >> nozzles with these. Then put your wood in. If you start with "wood" in the
        > >> bottom you will generate a lot of tar until the unit reaches an equilibrium
        > >> where it makes it's own charcoal. TomC
        > >>
        > >> --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "TomC" <ginfizz20@> wrote:
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> > Hello again Paul and Group;
        > >> > I wasn't with you when you made your run so I am just trying to
        > >> visualize what went on. My impression is that you had so much pressure that
        > >> it caused the lid to leak. This allowed the flame to follow the air flow up
        > >> towards the lid at the same time air/flame was heading to the restrictor.
        > >> If the pressure had not been so high, the lid may have sealed and the
        > >> air/flame would not have gone in that direction. Hot air has mass and will
        > >> flow from a high pressure area to a low pressure area. Thus, the high
        > >> pressure goes from the vacuum cleaner(blower) to and through the nozzles,
        > >> then down through the restrictor, and out into the atmosphere where you try
        > >> to "flare" it. From the nozzle tips where the "fire" is, "radiant" heat is
        > >> created. Radiant heat has no mass so it will go any and all directions from
        > >> the source. The radiant heat that travels upwards dries the wood and
        > >> causes Pyrolysis of the wood in the silo. By the time the wood gets to the
        > >> area of the nozzles, it should be glowing hot charcoal. I'm glad to hear
        > >> that you have a "speed"control on you shop vac. So how much pressure do you
        > >> think you were pushing into the gasifier-- would you say it was a pressure
        > >> or just a "heavy breeze"??
        > >> > About the "bent piece of wire". Stephen came up with that. If you
        > >> had no grate and you started filling the gasifier up above the nozzles with
        > >> char/ash, the first thing that would happen is the c/a would fall through
        > >> the restrictor. As it falls through the restrictor it will NOT leave
        > >> straight up and down walls. The c/a that would have been near this up and
        > >> down wall will slide into the restrictor leaving the c/a on a slope from
        > >> the restrictor to the inside of the fire extinguisher. The slope will be
        > >> approximately 30 degrees measuring from the vertical at the center of the
        > >> restrictor. If your nozzles are sticking out to far from this c/a slope,
        > >> gases can go around behind the nozzles and tar does not get broken down. If
        > >> the nozzles are between the wire and the wall of the extinguisher, the c/a
        > >> can build up over them. (I'm not sure this would be a bad thing unless it
        > >> plugged the nozzles) A "tar dam" acts like a bottomless tin can and holds
        > >> the c/a in a vertical wall up to and just above the nozzles. This forces
        > >> the a/c (and gases) to go past the hot spot at the nozzle tips thus
        > >> breaking down the tars.
        > >> > The angled nozzles is again something that Stephen came up with. Up
        > >> until he suggested it we mostly ran horizontal nozzles. If your nozzles are
        > >> actually 1/4 in. I.S. diameter, then I guess that should be close and the
        > >> height of the nozzle circle is probably ok. (Look in the files section for
        > >> FAO 72, a government produced booklet. On about pages 61,130,131 are ways
        > >> of calculating these. Mike and I were just kind of eyeballing the sizes.
        > >> > The Kirby vacuum cleaner I'm talking about is just that-- A Kirby
        > >> "up-right" vacuum cleaner. They sold millions of them for years but now
        > >> people want more fancy vacuums. I find that all the up-right are alike
        > >> except the newer ones have a plastic impeller. The old ones have a metal
        > >> impeller (cast Aluminum or pot metal) They were great vacuums in their day
        > >> but they are out dated--let the women in your life know you are looking for
        > >> one and I bet with a little asking around you will find someone who has one
        > >> they no longer use.
        > >> > Good luck. I have an "experimental" thing you might want to try. I will
        > >> post it tomorrow. It is late now so got to go. TomC
        > >> >
        > >> > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "Paul A. Cianciolo" <paulc@> wrote:
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Hello Tom,
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > I will try to comment on the points you made.
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Don't take any blame for the pressurization scheme, you may have
        > >> suggested
        > >> > > it but I implemented it , and learned from it so all is good.
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > I will build a manometer which I can use as a test instrument that is
        > >> stable
        > >> > > and repeatable. I have a variac connected to the blow to control the
        > >> > > pressure, a variac is and adjustable transformer.
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > On the nozzle sizes, they are already 1/4" black iron pipe nipples,
        > >> maybe
        > >> > > they look bigger in the pictures.
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > On the nozzle height I just measured and the nozzle is 1" above the
        > >> hot
        > >> > > well, which puts it 3" above the restriction. Is this ok?
        > >> > >
        > >> > > The nozzles are also not angled down on the 60 degree angle, they just
        > >> enter
        > >> > > the side of the burn tube and reach in so far that they are just reach
        > >> the
        > >> > > side of the hot well.
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > I think I understand what you mean about the bent wire and using it as
        > >> a
        > >> > > guide to the height nozzle tube entry. I will measure that up and
        > >> maybe get
        > >> > > some of those fancy angle plates that Stephen sells.
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Do you have a picture of what the internal pump on that Kirby vacuum or
        > >> > > maybe a model # of the vac, I can start looking for one of those.
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Work is not a problem, I just appreciate being able to get suggestions
        > >> from
        > >> > > folks on this list.
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Thank you Tom
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Paul A. Cianciolo
        > >> > >
        > >> > > W1VLF
        > >> > >
        > >> > > <http://www.rescueelectronics.com/> http://www.rescueelectronics.com/
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Our business computer network is powered exclusively by solar and wind
        > >> > > power.
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Converting Photons to Electrons for over 20 years
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On
        > >> Behalf Of
        > >> > > TomC
        > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM
        > >> > > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
        > >> > > Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Hello Paul;
        > >> > > I kind of take blame for your failure (learning curve) today. I
        > >> suggested
        > >> > > that you run pressure. I think you only did part of what I said. I also
        > >> > > suggested that you put a manometer in your manifold so that you would
        > >> know
        > >> > > what kind of pressure you were putting on the system. Remember we are
        > >> only
        > >> > > pulling and/or pushing about 5 in. of h20; that would be 2/10 ths of 1
        > >> psi.
        > >> > > You will need a dimmer switch hooked into the electrical system
        > >> feeding the
        > >> > > shop vac, to slow it down and control the pressure. I hate to see you
        > >> spend
        > >> > > too much time trying to develop a vacuum source. (I did the same thing
        > >> > > several years ago) The best vacuum source I have found is an old Kirby
        > >> > > up-right vacuum cleaner. I got one at Goodwill for $7 and when that is
        > >> > > hooked up to a dimmer switch, I think it is the ultimate source for a
        > >> vacuum
        > >> > > supply.(just my opinion) Mike LaRosa may have a point that the gasifier
        > >> > > dynamics aren't the same under pressure as under a vacuum. It's just
        > >> that
        > >> > > they say they aren't but haven't told me how they differ. The main
        > >> thing
        > >> > > here is; if you push air or pull air, you need a MANOMETER in the
        > >> system to
        > >> > > know what you are doing. Enough on this subject, I was just trying to
        > >> save
        > >> > > you some time developing a fan or ejector or something else to create
        > >> a flow
        > >> > > in the gasifier.
        > >> > > Now lets get serious about getting you some gas burning. YOU HAVE TO
        > >> MAKE
        > >> > > SOME CHANGES!!!. #1.As Mike LaRosa said the diameter of the holes in
        > >> you
        > >> > > nozzles are too big. I would suggest 1/4 in. dia.
        > >> > > #2.As Mike suggested you nozzles are not high enough above the
        > >> restrictor
        > >> > > They should be raised about 2" from what I see in the pictures
        > >> > > #3 This is a little complicated. You have two choices. One (and I
        > >> think the
        > >> > > best) is the "The Tar Dam" that I suggested. I did put some pictures
        > >> of a
        > >> > > TAR DAM in the file.
        > >> > > OR--You need to take a piece of wire, like coat hangar wire, about 12"
        > >> long.
        > >> > > Bend it in the middle into a 60 degree angle. Place the point of the
        > >> angled
        > >> > > wire down in the center of the restriction. Now follow up one leg of
        > >> the
        > >> > > angle to the new height of the nozzles. The distance from that
        > >> intersection
        > >> > > to the center of the gasifier times 2 equals the required nozzle
        > >> diameter.
        > >> > > I realize this is asking for a lot of work but unfortunately, these
        > >> are just
        > >> > > suggestions to get you closer. I could suggest a way to correct all of
        > >> these
        > >> > > problems in one simple way. A member by the name of Joseph Monty built
        > >> a
        > >> > > small gasifier and ran a small Ford car on it. He had a good drawing
        > >> in with
        > >> > > his pictures on this or the Woodgas Builders Group. I tried to contact
        > >> him
        > >> > > to see if I could repost his drawing but did not hear from him.TomC
        > >> > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WoodGas%40yahoogroups.com> ,
        > >> "PAUL"
        > >> > > <paulc@> wrote:
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > The following is an email I sent to Stephen, but thinking about it
        > >> maybe I
        > >> > > should post to the group considering the experience.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > Well today was another run, a burn, or better yet a journey the edge
        > >> of
        > >> > > hell.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > Todays test was a pressure run, instead of trying to vacuum the
        > >> gases out
        > >> > > of the burn tube,I fashioned a manifold made out of PVC with 3 home
        > >> runs of
        > >> > > tubing running off to the 3 nozzles.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > A shop vac is providing the pressurized air feeding the manifold.
        > >> > > > With the shop vac on low I had good flow and pressure coming out of
        > >> the
        > >> > > nozzles, checked this before firing up.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > Some kindling in the hot well, and blocks of wood in the hopper.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > Smoke starts emitting from the vent pipe imediately after the shop
        > >> vas was
        > >> > > turned on, and in 3 minutes or so the gases out of the flare pipe were
        > >> just
        > >> > > on the verge of self-sustaining a flame.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > Then I notice a number of leaks around the cover of the burner. Cant
        > >> have
        > >> > > this so I tried foil tape etc. but could not stop the leaks.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > So I decided in ultimate stupidity to fill the rest of the hopper up
        > >> with
        > >> > > fiberglass insulation. pink stuff. I pressed it in real tight so it
        > >> won't
        > >> > > leak badly.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > The unit was fine for a couple of minutes, but again the leaks
        > >> started and
        > >> > > were worse this time. I figured the fire must be burning up instead of
        > >> down.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > I tried the flame tube again and the flame stayed lit for about a
        > >> minute.
        > >> > > Not being able to tolerate the leaks any longer I shut the unit down.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > When ever I lift the cover off, I always lift so if a flame shoots
        > >> out it
        > >> > > goes away from me. Good thing this time as a big puff of smoke and
        > >> flame
        > >> > > blew out.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > With the cover was off I found the flame was burning up toward the
        > >> cover
        > >> > > and not so much down.
        > >> > > > The flame must be following the leaks.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > Inside were 2 white hot glowing glass tunnels burned down to the
        > >> nozzles.
        > >> > > > One of the scariest things I have ever seen!!! It was getting a free
        > >> > > preview of hell!!!! Molten balls of glass hung to the sides of the
        > >> tunnel.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > So I put some snow on the unit and let it go out and cool down.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > I need to learn the meaning of "air tight" I think the flame
        > >> followed the
        > >> > > air up toward the leak.
        > >> > > > Is this true? I mean if there were no leaks in the hopper would the
        > >> flame
        > >> > > have moved in this direction?
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > With a vacuum system, the leaks posed only the problem of adding air
        > >> to
        > >> > > the fire which would be traveling down in the hot well. And making
        > >> tar???
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > But with pressure it's a whole different ball game.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > However I am not discouraged. I learned a lot tonight. A little at a
        > >> time
        > >> > > I am getting a feel for what is going on inside one of these units.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > PauLC
        > >> > > > W1VLF
        > >> > > >
        > >> > >
        > >> >
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> ------------------------------------
        > >>
        > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        >
      • chuck potts
        I agree with TomC, if you break up charcoal and put it in the bottom and have that to start, it will be a good char bed to start the gasser on and from there
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 4, 2013
          I agree with TomC, if you break up charcoal and put it in the bottom and have that to start, it will be a good char bed to start the gasser on and from there on out don't burn it all the way down and save the char bed so you have a place to start from.  As far as the type of charcoal you use I have used all kinds with good results, even the self starting charcoal.  I just put the charcoal in a strong feed bag and set it on my barn floor and slam a 4x4 end down on it until I get the size I need about 3/4" or so, maybe a bit smaller.  I fact I have to do that this weekend, as I had a little puff out of my gasser and it messed up my char bed the last time I ran it. I have to clean it out and check I may have enough of the char after the clean out to put back in the bottom if not then I have some charcoal to use.  One tip I should have used but didn't, save back a 5 gal bucket of char just for this occasion.  I guess I always learn the hard way.lol Thanks Chuck    
           

          To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
          From: ginfizz20@...
          Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:32:00 +0000
          Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano Tom's Suggestions

           
          Mr. C; I think filling the bottom of the gasifier with charcoal is the best thing to do - don't over think this.
          #1 If you did have such a biomass and packed it around like a funnel, then ignited it; it would oxidize (burn) and turn into a very small amount of "ash" and your funnel would be gone. In running the gasifier AFTER the first run, you would generate your own charcoal for the next run. But, why go to all that trouble when you can just fill the bottom up with charcoal and be done with it.
          #2 If you make a funnel as you said, and put "wood" in on top, the wood will give off gases (pyrolysis) but there will be NO hot spot in the restrictor to "crack" the gases. You will go thru the same tar making process you would have if you did not make this "funnel". The burning funnel may speed up the process so that you don't have to wait so long to get past the tar stage. But again a lot of work for little advantage. TomC

          --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Clement Aigbogun <revicaig@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > I was just wondering if the use of another biomass substance that is easy to ignite and would continue to burn would suffice. Now this is very important because of the gas content and the chance to direct steam from within to the charcoal overhead.this powdered biomass you can spread it out to form the shape of a funnel just under the nozzle before loading the wood. What do you think?
          > C
          > ------------------------------
          > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 12:33 PM GMT-12:00 Greg Manning wrote:
          >
          > > Tom, you are "VERY" correct.
          > >
          > >gasifiers work on charcoal, the nozzles, create the charcoal (easy
          > >explanation)m abd the heat needed to chemically reduce the charcoal.
          > >
          > >Greg
          > >
          > >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:17 AM, TomC <ginfizz20@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >> It's me again;
          > >> I thought of this after I went to bed. YOU MUST START YOUR GASIFIER FOR
          > >> THE FIRST TIME USING "CHARCOAL" not wood!!! If you don't have any charcoal
          > >> go to a store that sells barbeque products and get a bag of "HARD WOOD
          > >> CHUNK" CHARCOAL (not briquets). Break the chunks up into marble or dice
          > >> sized pieces. Fill your gasifier from the grate up to just above the
          > >> nozzles with these. Then put your wood in. If you start with "wood" in the
          > >> bottom you will generate a lot of tar until the unit reaches an equilibrium
          > >> where it makes it's own charcoal. TomC
          > >>
          > >> --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "TomC" <ginfizz20@> wrote:
          > >> >
          > >> >
          > >> > Hello again Paul and Group;
          > >> > I wasn't with you when you made your run so I am just trying to
          > >> visualize what went on. My impression is that you had so much pressure that
          > >> it caused the lid to leak. This allowed the flame to follow the air flow up
          > >> towards the lid at the same time air/flame was heading to the restrictor.
          > >> If the pressure had not been so high, the lid may have sealed and the
          > >> air/flame would not have gone in that direction. Hot air has mass and will
          > >> flow from a high pressure area to a low pressure area. Thus, the high
          > >> pressure goes from the vacuum cleaner(blower) to and through the nozzles,
          > >> then down through the restrictor, and out into the atmosphere where you try
          > >> to "flare" it. From the nozzle tips where the "fire" is, "radiant" heat is
          > >> created. Radiant heat has no mass so it will go any and all directions from
          > >> the source. The radiant heat that travels upwards dries the wood and
          > >> causes Pyrolysis of the wood in the silo. By the time the wood gets to the
          > >> area of the nozzles, it should be glowing hot charcoal. I'm glad to hear
          > >> that you have a "speed"control on you shop vac. So how much pressure do you
          > >> think you were pushing into the gasifier-- would you say it was a pressure
          > >> or just a "heavy breeze"??
          > >> > About the "bent piece of wire". Stephen came up with that. If you
          > >> had no grate and you started filling the gasifier up above the nozzles with
          > >> char/ash, the first thing that would happen is the c/a would fall through
          > >> the restrictor. As it falls through the restrictor it will NOT leave
          > >> straight up and down walls. The c/a that would have been near this up and
          > >> down wall will slide into the restrictor leaving the c/a on a slope from
          > >> the restrictor to the inside of the fire extinguisher. The slope will be
          > >> approximately 30 degrees measuring from the vertical at the center of the
          > >> restrictor. If your nozzles are sticking out to far from this c/a slope,
          > >> gases can go around behind the nozzles and tar does not get broken down. If
          > >> the nozzles are between the wire and the wall of the extinguisher, the c/a
          > >> can build up over them. (I'm not sure this would be a bad thing unless it
          > >> plugged the nozzles) A "tar dam" acts like a bottomless tin can and holds
          > >> the c/a in a vertical wall up to and just above the nozzles. This forces
          > >> the a/c (and gases) to go past the hot spot at the nozzle tips thus
          > >> breaking down the tars.
          > >> > The angled nozzles is again something that Stephen came up with. Up
          > >> until he suggested it we mostly ran horizontal nozzles. If your nozzles are
          > >> actually 1/4 in. I.S. diameter, then I guess that should be close and the
          > >> height of the nozzle circle is probably ok. (Look in the files section for
          > >> FAO 72, a government produced booklet. On about pages 61,130,131 are ways
          > >> of calculating these. Mike and I were just kind of eyeballing the sizes.
          > >> > The Kirby vacuum cleaner I'm talking about is just that-- A Kirby
          > >> "up-right" vacuum cleaner. They sold millions of them for years but now
          > >> people want more fancy vacuums. I find that all the up-right are alike
          > >> except the newer ones have a plastic impeller. The old ones have a metal
          > >> impeller (cast Aluminum or pot metal) They were great vacuums in their day
          > >> but they are out dated--let the women in your life know you are looking for
          > >> one and I bet with a little asking around you will find someone who has one
          > >> they no longer use.
          > >> > Good luck. I have an "experimental" thing you might want to try. I will
          > >> post it tomorrow. It is late now so got to go. TomC
          > >> >
          > >> > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "Paul A. Cianciolo" <paulc@> wrote:
          > >> > >
          > >> > > Hello Tom,
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > I will try to comment on the points you made.
          > >> > >
          > >> > > Don't take any blame for the pressurization scheme, you may have
          > >> suggested
          > >> > > it but I implemented it , and learned from it so all is good.
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > I will build a manometer which I can use as a test instrument that is
          > >> stable
          > >> > > and repeatable. I have a variac connected to the blow to control the
          > >> > > pressure, a variac is and adjustable transformer.
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > On the nozzle sizes, they are already 1/4" black iron pipe nipples,
          > >> maybe
          > >> > > they look bigger in the pictures.
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > On the nozzle height I just measured and the nozzle is 1" above the
          > >> hot
          > >> > > well, which puts it 3" above the restriction. Is this ok?
          > >> > >
          > >> > > The nozzles are also not angled down on the 60 degree angle, they just
          > >> enter
          > >> > > the side of the burn tube and reach in so far that they are just reach
          > >> the
          > >> > > side of the hot well.
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > I think I understand what you mean about the bent wire and using it as
          > >> a
          > >> > > guide to the height nozzle tube entry. I will measure that up and
          > >> maybe get
          > >> > > some of those fancy angle plates that Stephen sells.
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > Do you have a picture of what the internal pump on that Kirby vacuum or
          > >> > > maybe a model # of the vac, I can start looking for one of those.
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > Work is not a problem, I just appreciate being able to get suggestions
          > >> from
          > >> > > folks on this list.
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > Thank you Tom
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > Paul A. Cianciolo
          > >> > >
          > >> > > W1VLF
          > >> > >
          > >> > > <http://www.rescueelectronics.com/> http://www.rescueelectronics.com/
          > >> > >
          > >> > > Our business computer network is powered exclusively by solar and wind
          > >> > > power.
          > >> > >
          > >> > > Converting Photons to Electrons for over 20 years
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On
          > >> Behalf Of
          > >> > > TomC
          > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM
          > >> > > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
          > >> > > Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > >
          > >> > > Hello Paul;
          > >> > > I kind of take blame for your failure (learning curve) today. I
          > >> suggested
          > >> > > that you run pressure. I think you only did part of what I said. I also
          > >> > > suggested that you put a manometer in your manifold so that you would
          > >> know
          > >> > > what kind of pressure you were putting on the system. Remember we are
          > >> only
          > >> > > pulling and/or pushing about 5 in. of h20; that would be 2/10 ths of 1
          > >> psi.
          > >> > > You will need a dimmer switch hooked into the electrical system
          > >> feeding the
          > >> > > shop vac, to slow it down and control the pressure. I hate to see you
          > >> spend
          > >> > > too much time trying to develop a vacuum source. (I did the same thing
          > >> > > several years ago) The best vacuum source I have found is an old Kirby
          > >> > > up-right vacuum cleaner. I got one at Goodwill for $7 and when that is
          > >> > > hooked up to a dimmer switch, I think it is the ultimate source for a
          > >> vacuum
          > >> > > supply.(just my opinion) Mike LaRosa may have a point that the gasifier
          > >> > > dynamics aren't the same under pressure as under a vacuum. It's just
          > >> that
          > >> > > they say they aren't but haven't told me how they differ. The main
          > >> thing
          > >> > > here is; if you push air or pull air, you need a MANOMETER in the
          > >> system to
          > >> > > know what you are doing. Enough on this subject, I was just trying to
          > >> save
          > >> > > you some time developing a fan or ejector or something else to create
          > >> a flow
          > >> > > in the gasifier.
          > >> > > Now lets get serious about getting you some gas burning. YOU HAVE TO
          > >> MAKE
          > >> > > SOME CHANGES!!!. #1.As Mike LaRosa said the diameter of the holes in
          > >> you
          > >> > > nozzles are too big. I would suggest 1/4 in. dia.
          > >> > > #2.As Mike suggested you nozzles are not high enough above the
          > >> restrictor
          > >> > > They should be raised about 2" from what I see in the pictures
          > >> > > #3 This is a little complicated. You have two choices. One (and I
          > >> think the
          > >> > > best) is the "The Tar Dam" that I suggested. I did put some pictures
          > >> of a
          > >> > > TAR DAM in the file.
          > >> > > OR--You need to take a piece of wire, like coat hangar wire, about 12"
          > >> long.
          > >> > > Bend it in the middle into a 60 degree angle. Place the point of the
          > >> angled
          > >> > > wire down in the center of the restriction. Now follow up one leg of
          > >> the
          > >> > > angle to the new height of the nozzles. The distance from that
          > >> intersection
          > >> > > to the center of the gasifier times 2 equals the required nozzle
          > >> diameter.
          > >> > > I realize this is asking for a lot of work but unfortunately, these
          > >> are just
          > >> > > suggestions to get you closer. I could suggest a way to correct all of
          > >> these
          > >> > > problems in one simple way. A member by the name of Joseph Monty built
          > >> a
          > >> > > small gasifier and ran a small Ford car on it. He had a good drawing
          > >> in with
          > >> > > his pictures on this or the Woodgas Builders Group. I tried to contact
          > >> him
          > >> > > to see if I could repost his drawing but did not hear from him.TomC
          > >> > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WoodGas%40yahoogroups.com> ,
          > >> "PAUL"
          > >> > > <paulc@> wrote:
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > The following is an email I sent to Stephen, but thinking about it
          > >> maybe I
          > >> > > should post to the group considering the experience.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > Well today was another run, a burn, or better yet a journey the edge
          > >> of
          > >> > > hell.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > Todays test was a pressure run, instead of trying to vacuum the
          > >> gases out
          > >> > > of the burn tube,I fashioned a manifold made out of PVC with 3 home
          > >> runs of
          > >> > > tubing running off to the 3 nozzles.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > A shop vac is providing the pressurized air feeding the manifold.
          > >> > > > With the shop vac on low I had good flow and pressure coming out of
          > >> the
          > >> > > nozzles, checked this before firing up.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > Some kindling in the hot well, and blocks of wood in the hopper.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > Smoke starts emitting from the vent pipe imediately after the shop
          > >> vas was
          > >> > > turned on, and in 3 minutes or so the gases out of the flare pipe were
          > >> just
          > >> > > on the verge of self-sustaining a flame.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > Then I notice a number of leaks around the cover of the burner. Cant
          > >> have
          > >> > > this so I tried foil tape etc. but could not stop the leaks.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > So I decided in ultimate stupidity to fill the rest of the hopper up
          > >> with
          > >> > > fiberglass insulation. pink stuff. I pressed it in real tight so it
          > >> won't
          > >> > > leak badly.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > The unit was fine for a couple of minutes, but again the leaks
          > >> started and
          > >> > > were worse this time. I figured the fire must be burning up instead of
          > >> down.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > I tried the flame tube again and the flame stayed lit for about a
          > >> minute.
          > >> > > Not being able to tolerate the leaks any longer I shut the unit down.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > When ever I lift the cover off, I always lift so if a flame shoots
          > >> out it
          > >> > > goes away from me. Good thing this time as a big puff of smoke and
          > >> flame
          > >> > > blew out.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > With the cover was off I found the flame was burning up toward the
          > >> cover
          > >> > > and not so much down.
          > >> > > > The flame must be following the leaks.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > Inside were 2 white hot glowing glass tunnels burned down to the
          > >> nozzles.
          > >> > > > One of the scariest things I have ever seen!!! It was getting a free
          > >> > > preview of hell!!!! Molten balls of glass hung to the sides of the
          > >> tunnel.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > So I put some snow on the unit and let it go out and cool down.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > I need to learn the meaning of "air tight" I think the flame
          > >> followed the
          > >> > > air up toward the leak.
          > >> > > > Is this true? I mean if there were no leaks in the hopper would the
          > >> flame
          > >> > > have moved in this direction?
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > With a vacuum system, the leaks posed only the problem of adding air
          > >> to
          > >> > > the fire which would be traveling down in the hot well. And making
          > >> tar???
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > But with pressure it's a whole different ball game.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > However I am not discouraged. I learned a lot tonight. A little at a
          > >> time
          > >> > > I am getting a feel for what is going on inside one of these units.
          > >> > > >
          > >> > > > PauLC
          > >> > > > W1VLF
          > >> > > >
          > >> > >
          > >> >
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> ------------------------------------
          > >>
          > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          >


        • Greg Manning
          Tom... whats your PH# ?? (reply in private if you do not want the list to see), I need to call you..... Greg
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 4, 2013
            Tom... whats your PH# ?? (reply in private if you do not want the list to see), I need to call you.....

            Greg


            On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:56 AM, chuck potts <chuckpallen@...> wrote:


            I agree with TomC, if you break up charcoal and put it in the bottom and have that to start, it will be a good char bed to start the gasser on and from there on out don't burn it all the way down and save the char bed so you have a place to start from.  As far as the type of charcoal you use I have used all kinds with good results, even the self starting charcoal.  I just put the charcoal in a strong feed bag and set it on my barn floor and slam a 4x4 end down on it until I get the size I need about 3/4" or so, maybe a bit smaller.  I fact I have to do that this weekend, as I had a little puff out of my gasser and it messed up my char bed the last time I ran it. I have to clean it out and check I may have enough of the char after the clean out to put back in the bottom if not then I have some charcoal to use.  One tip I should have used but didn't, save back a 5 gal bucket of char just for this occasion.  I guess I always learn the hard way.lol Thanks Chuck    
             

            To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
            From: ginfizz20@...
            Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:32:00 +0000
            Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano Tom's Suggestions


             
            Mr. C; I think filling the bottom of the gasifier with charcoal is the best thing to do - don't over think this.
            #1 If you did have such a biomass and packed it around like a funnel, then ignited it; it would oxidize (burn) and turn into a very small amount of "ash" and your funnel would be gone. In running the gasifier AFTER the first run, you would generate your own charcoal for the next run. But, why go to all that trouble when you can just fill the bottom up with charcoal and be done with it.
            #2 If you make a funnel as you said, and put "wood" in on top, the wood will give off gases (pyrolysis) but there will be NO hot spot in the restrictor to "crack" the gases. You will go thru the same tar making process you would have if you did not make this "funnel". The burning funnel may speed up the process so that you don't have to wait so long to get past the tar stage. But again a lot of work for little advantage. TomC

            --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Clement Aigbogun <revicaig@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I was just wondering if the use of another biomass substance that is easy to ignite and would continue to burn would suffice. Now this is very important because of the gas content and the chance to direct steam from within to the charcoal overhead.this powdered biomass you can spread it out to form the shape of a funnel just under the nozzle before loading the wood. What do you think?
            > C
            > ------------------------------
            > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 12:33 PM GMT-12:00 Greg Manning wrote:
            >
            > > Tom, you are "VERY" correct.
            > >
            > >gasifiers work on charcoal, the nozzles, create the charcoal (easy
            > >explanation)m abd the heat needed to chemically reduce the charcoal.
            > >
            > >Greg
            > >
            > >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:17 AM, TomC <ginfizz20@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >> It's me again;
            > >> I thought of this after I went to bed. YOU MUST START YOUR GASIFIER FOR
            > >> THE FIRST TIME USING "CHARCOAL" not wood!!! If you don't have any charcoal
            > >> go to a store that sells barbeque products and get a bag of "HARD WOOD
            > >> CHUNK" CHARCOAL (not briquets). Break the chunks up into marble or dice
            > >> sized pieces. Fill your gasifier from the grate up to just above the
            > >> nozzles with these. Then put your wood in. If you start with "wood" in the
            > >> bottom you will generate a lot of tar until the unit reaches an equilibrium
            > >> where it makes it's own charcoal. TomC
            > >>
            > >> --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "TomC" <ginfizz20@> wrote:
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > Hello again Paul and Group;
            > >> > I wasn't with you when you made your run so I am just trying to
            > >> visualize what went on. My impression is that you had so much pressure that
            > >> it caused the lid to leak. This allowed the flame to follow the air flow up
            > >> towards the lid at the same time air/flame was heading to the restrictor.
            > >> If the pressure had not been so high, the lid may have sealed and the
            > >> air/flame would not have gone in that direction. Hot air has mass and will
            > >> flow from a high pressure area to a low pressure area. Thus, the high
            > >> pressure goes from the vacuum cleaner(blower) to and through the nozzles,
            > >> then down through the restrictor, and out into the atmosphere where you try
            > >> to "flare" it. From the nozzle tips where the "fire" is, "radiant" heat is
            > >> created. Radiant heat has no mass so it will go any and all directions from
            > >> the source. The radiant heat that travels upwards dries the wood and
            > >> causes Pyrolysis of the wood in the silo. By the time the wood gets to the
            > >> area of the nozzles, it should be glowing hot charcoal. I'm glad to hear
            > >> that you have a "speed"control on you shop vac. So how much pressure do you
            > >> think you were pushing into the gasifier-- would you say it was a pressure
            > >> or just a "heavy breeze"??
            > >> > About the "bent piece of wire". Stephen came up with that. If you
            > >> had no grate and you started filling the gasifier up above the nozzles with
            > >> char/ash, the first thing that would happen is the c/a would fall through
            > >> the restrictor. As it falls through the restrictor it will NOT leave
            > >> straight up and down walls. The c/a that would have been near this up and
            > >> down wall will slide into the restrictor leaving the c/a on a slope from
            > >> the restrictor to the inside of the fire extinguisher. The slope will be
            > >> approximately 30 degrees measuring from the vertical at the center of the
            > >> restrictor. If your nozzles are sticking out to far from this c/a slope,
            > >> gases can go around behind the nozzles and tar does not get broken down. If
            > >> the nozzles are between the wire and the wall of the extinguisher, the c/a
            > >> can build up over them. (I'm not sure this would be a bad thing unless it
            > >> plugged the nozzles) A "tar dam" acts like a bottomless tin can and holds
            > >> the c/a in a vertical wall up to and just above the nozzles. This forces
            > >> the a/c (and gases) to go past the hot spot at the nozzle tips thus
            > >> breaking down the tars.
            > >> > The angled nozzles is again something that Stephen came up with. Up
            > >> until he suggested it we mostly ran horizontal nozzles. If your nozzles are
            > >> actually 1/4 in. I.S. diameter, then I guess that should be close and the
            > >> height of the nozzle circle is probably ok. (Look in the files section for
            > >> FAO 72, a government produced booklet. On about pages 61,130,131 are ways
            > >> of calculating these. Mike and I were just kind of eyeballing the sizes.
            > >> > The Kirby vacuum cleaner I'm talking about is just that-- A Kirby
            > >> "up-right" vacuum cleaner. They sold millions of them for years but now
            > >> people want more fancy vacuums. I find that all the up-right are alike
            > >> except the newer ones have a plastic impeller. The old ones have a metal
            > >> impeller (cast Aluminum or pot metal) They were great vacuums in their day
            > >> but they are out dated--let the women in your life know you are looking for
            > >> one and I bet with a little asking around you will find someone who has one
            > >> they no longer use.
            > >> > Good luck. I have an "experimental" thing you might want to try. I will
            > >> post it tomorrow. It is late now so got to go. TomC
            > >> >
            > >> > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "Paul A. Cianciolo" <paulc@> wrote:
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Hello Tom,
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > I will try to comment on the points you made.
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Don't take any blame for the pressurization scheme, you may have
            > >> suggested
            > >> > > it but I implemented it , and learned from it so all is good.
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > I will build a manometer which I can use as a test instrument that is
            > >> stable
            > >> > > and repeatable. I have a variac connected to the blow to control the
            > >> > > pressure, a variac is and adjustable transformer.
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > On the nozzle sizes, they are already 1/4" black iron pipe nipples,
            > >> maybe
            > >> > > they look bigger in the pictures.
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > On the nozzle height I just measured and the nozzle is 1" above the
            > >> hot
            > >> > > well, which puts it 3" above the restriction. Is this ok?
            > >> > >
            > >> > > The nozzles are also not angled down on the 60 degree angle, they just
            > >> enter
            > >> > > the side of the burn tube and reach in so far that they are just reach
            > >> the
            > >> > > side of the hot well.
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > I think I understand what you mean about the bent wire and using it as
            > >> a
            > >> > > guide to the height nozzle tube entry. I will measure that up and
            > >> maybe get
            > >> > > some of those fancy angle plates that Stephen sells.
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Do you have a picture of what the internal pump on that Kirby vacuum or
            > >> > > maybe a model # of the vac, I can start looking for one of those.
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Work is not a problem, I just appreciate being able to get suggestions
            > >> from
            > >> > > folks on this list.
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Thank you Tom
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Paul A. Cianciolo
            > >> > >
            > >> > > W1VLF
            > >> > >
            > >> > > <http://www.rescueelectronics.com/> http://www.rescueelectronics.com/
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Our business computer network is powered exclusively by solar and wind
            > >> > > power.
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Converting Photons to Electrons for over 20 years
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On
            > >> Behalf Of
            > >> > > TomC
            > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM
            > >> > > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
            > >> > > Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Hello Paul;
            > >> > > I kind of take blame for your failure (learning curve) today. I
            > >> suggested
            > >> > > that you run pressure. I think you only did part of what I said. I also
            > >> > > suggested that you put a manometer in your manifold so that you would
            > >> know
            > >> > > what kind of pressure you were putting on the system. Remember we are
            > >> only
            > >> > > pulling and/or pushing about 5 in. of h20; that would be 2/10 ths of 1
            > >> psi.
            > >> > > You will need a dimmer switch hooked into the electrical system
            > >> feeding the
            > >> > > shop vac, to slow it down and control the pressure. I hate to see you
            > >> spend
            > >> > > too much time trying to develop a vacuum source. (I did the same thing
            > >> > > several years ago) The best vacuum source I have found is an old Kirby
            > >> > > up-right vacuum cleaner. I got one at Goodwill for $7 and when that is
            > >> > > hooked up to a dimmer switch, I think it is the ultimate source for a
            > >> vacuum
            > >> > > supply.(just my opinion) Mike LaRosa may have a point that the gasifier
            > >> > > dynamics aren't the same under pressure as under a vacuum. It's just
            > >> that
            > >> > > they say they aren't but haven't told me how they differ. The main
            > >> thing
            > >> > > here is; if you push air or pull air, you need a MANOMETER in the
            > >> system to
            > >> > > know what you are doing. Enough on this subject, I was just trying to
            > >> save
            > >> > > you some time developing a fan or ejector or something else to create
            > >> a flow
            > >> > > in the gasifier.
            > >> > > Now lets get serious about getting you some gas burning. YOU HAVE TO
            > >> MAKE
            > >> > > SOME CHANGES!!!. #1.As Mike LaRosa said the diameter of the holes in
            > >> you
            > >> > > nozzles are too big. I would suggest 1/4 in. dia.
            > >> > > #2.As Mike suggested you nozzles are not high enough above the
            > >> restrictor
            > >> > > They should be raised about 2" from what I see in the pictures
            > >> > > #3 This is a little complicated. You have two choices. One (and I
            > >> think the
            > >> > > best) is the "The Tar Dam" that I suggested. I did put some pictures
            > >> of a
            > >> > > TAR DAM in the file.
            > >> > > OR--You need to take a piece of wire, like coat hangar wire, about 12"
            > >> long.
            > >> > > Bend it in the middle into a 60 degree angle. Place the point of the
            > >> angled
            > >> > > wire down in the center of the restriction. Now follow up one leg of
            > >> the
            > >> > > angle to the new height of the nozzles. The distance from that
            > >> intersection
            > >> > > to the center of the gasifier times 2 equals the required nozzle
            > >> diameter.
            > >> > > I realize this is asking for a lot of work but unfortunately, these
            > >> are just
            > >> > > suggestions to get you closer. I could suggest a way to correct all of
            > >> these
            > >> > > problems in one simple way. A member by the name of Joseph Monty built
            > >> a
            > >> > > small gasifier and ran a small Ford car on it. He had a good drawing
            > >> in with
            > >> > > his pictures on this or the Woodgas Builders Group. I tried to contact
            > >> him
            > >> > > to see if I could repost his drawing but did not hear from him.TomC
            > >> > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WoodGas%40yahoogroups.com> ,
            > >> "PAUL"
            > >> > > <paulc@> wrote:
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > The following is an email I sent to Stephen, but thinking about it
            > >> maybe I
            > >> > > should post to the group considering the experience.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > Well today was another run, a burn, or better yet a journey the edge
            > >> of
            > >> > > hell.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > Todays test was a pressure run, instead of trying to vacuum the
            > >> gases out
            > >> > > of the burn tube,I fashioned a manifold made out of PVC with 3 home
            > >> runs of
            > >> > > tubing running off to the 3 nozzles.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > A shop vac is providing the pressurized air feeding the manifold.
            > >> > > > With the shop vac on low I had good flow and pressure coming out of
            > >> the
            > >> > > nozzles, checked this before firing up.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > Some kindling in the hot well, and blocks of wood in the hopper.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > Smoke starts emitting from the vent pipe imediately after the shop
            > >> vas was
            > >> > > turned on, and in 3 minutes or so the gases out of the flare pipe were
            > >> just
            > >> > > on the verge of self-sustaining a flame.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > Then I notice a number of leaks around the cover of the burner. Cant
            > >> have
            > >> > > this so I tried foil tape etc. but could not stop the leaks.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > So I decided in ultimate stupidity to fill the rest of the hopper up
            > >> with
            > >> > > fiberglass insulation. pink stuff. I pressed it in real tight so it
            > >> won't
            > >> > > leak badly.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > The unit was fine for a couple of minutes, but again the leaks
            > >> started and
            > >> > > were worse this time. I figured the fire must be burning up instead of
            > >> down.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > I tried the flame tube again and the flame stayed lit for about a
            > >> minute.
            > >> > > Not being able to tolerate the leaks any longer I shut the unit down.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > When ever I lift the cover off, I always lift so if a flame shoots
            > >> out it
            > >> > > goes away from me. Good thing this time as a big puff of smoke and
            > >> flame
            > >> > > blew out.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > With the cover was off I found the flame was burning up toward the
            > >> cover
            > >> > > and not so much down.
            > >> > > > The flame must be following the leaks.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > Inside were 2 white hot glowing glass tunnels burned down to the
            > >> nozzles.
            > >> > > > One of the scariest things I have ever seen!!! It was getting a free
            > >> > > preview of hell!!!! Molten balls of glass hung to the sides of the
            > >> tunnel.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > So I put some snow on the unit and let it go out and cool down.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > I need to learn the meaning of "air tight" I think the flame
            > >> followed the
            > >> > > air up toward the leak.
            > >> > > > Is this true? I mean if there were no leaks in the hopper would the
            > >> flame
            > >> > > have moved in this direction?
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > With a vacuum system, the leaks posed only the problem of adding air
            > >> to
            > >> > > the fire which would be traveling down in the hot well. And making
            > >> tar???
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > But with pressure it's a whole different ball game.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > However I am not discouraged. I learned a lot tonight. A little at a
            > >> time
            > >> > > I am getting a feel for what is going on inside one of these units.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > > PauLC
            > >> > > > W1VLF
            > >> > > >
            > >> > >
            > >> >
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> ------------------------------------
            > >>
            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            >





          • Clement Aigbogun
            The funnel would continue to burn along the line of a funnel but it gets wider and prevents heat loss. You start with charcoal and yuor system would be
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 4, 2013
              The funnel would continue to burn along the line of a funnel but it gets wider and prevents heat loss. You start with charcoal and yuor system would be sterile.. This biomass substance upon ignition immediately turns to charcoal not ash. Now as the first layer turn to charcoal, it ignites the next layer in a continium such that heat starts radiating setting of convection current of hot gases and vapours upward hitting the exposed container housing the wood covered but with a controlled vent which you would observe to close as required.at this point the wood in this upper contianer would be supper hot charcoal. Not that the burn time of the stove(bottom)and the container above housing the wood is different. Your exploiit this and refill your gasifier as required.
              C
              ------------------------------
              On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 3:32 AM GMT-12:00 TomC wrote:

              >Mr. C; I think filling the bottom of the gasifier with charcoal is the best thing to do - don't over think this.
              > #1 If you did have such a biomass and packed it around like a funnel, then ignited it; it would oxidize (burn) and turn into a very small amount of "ash" and your funnel would be gone. In running the gasifier AFTER the first run, you would generate your own charcoal for the next run. But, why go to all that trouble when you can just fill the bottom up with charcoal and be done with it.
              > #2 If you make a funnel as you said, and put "wood" in on top, the wood will give off gases (pyrolysis) but there will be NO hot spot in the restrictor to "crack" the gases. You will go thru the same tar making process you would have if you did not make this "funnel". The burning funnel may speed up the process so that you don't have to wait so long to get past the tar stage. But again a lot of work for little advantage. TomC
              >
              >--- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Clement Aigbogun <revicaig@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> I was just wondering if the use of another biomass substance that is easy to ignite and would continue to burn would suffice. Now this is very important because of the gas content and the chance to direct steam from within to the charcoal overhead.this powdered biomass you can spread it out to form the shape of a funnel just under the nozzle before loading the wood. What do you think?
              >> C
              >> ------------------------------
              >> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 12:33 PM GMT-12:00 Greg Manning wrote:
              >>
              >> > Tom, you are "VERY" correct.
              >> >
              >> >gasifiers work on charcoal, the nozzles, create the charcoal (easy
              >> >explanation)m abd the heat needed to chemically reduce the charcoal.
              >> >
              >> >Greg
              >> >
              >> >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:17 AM, TomC <ginfizz20@...> wrote:
              >> >
              >> > It's me again;
              >> > I thought of this after I went to bed. YOU MUST START YOUR GASIFIER FOR
              >> > THE FIRST TIME USING "CHARCOAL" not wood!!! If you don't have any charcoal
              >> > go to a store that sells barbeque products and get a bag of "HARD WOOD
              >> > CHUNK" CHARCOAL (not briquets). Break the chunks up into marble or dice
              >> > sized pieces. Fill your gasifier from the grate up to just above the
              >> > nozzles with these. Then put your wood in. If you start with "wood" in the
              >> > bottom you will generate a lot of tar until the unit reaches an equilibrium
              >> > where it makes it's own charcoal. TomC
              >> >
              >> > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "TomC" <ginfizz20@> wrote:
              >> > >
              >> > >
              >> > > Hello again Paul and Group;
              >> > > I wasn't with you when you made your run so I am just trying to
              >> > visualize what went on. My impression is that you had so much pressure that
              >> > it caused the lid to leak. This allowed the flame to follow the air flow up
              >> > towards the lid at the same time air/flame was heading to the restrictor.
              >> > If the pressure had not been so high, the lid may have sealed and the
              >> > air/flame would not have gone in that direction. Hot air has mass and will
              >> > flow from a high pressure area to a low pressure area. Thus, the high
              >> > pressure goes from the vacuum cleaner(blower) to and through the nozzles,
              >> > then down through the restrictor, and out into the atmosphere where you try
              >> > to "flare" it. From the nozzle tips where the "fire" is, "radiant" heat is
              >> > created. Radiant heat has no mass so it will go any and all directions from
              >> > the source. The radiant heat that travels upwards dries the wood and
              >> > causes Pyrolysis of the wood in the silo. By the time the wood gets to the
              >> > area of the nozzles, it should be glowing hot charcoal. I'm glad to hear
              >> > that you have a "speed"control on you shop vac. So how much pressure do you
              >> > think you were pushing into the gasifier-- would you say it was a pressure
              >> > or just a "heavy breeze"??
              >> > > About the "bent piece of wire". Stephen came up with that. If you
              >> > had no grate and you started filling the gasifier up above the nozzles with
              >> > char/ash, the first thing that would happen is the c/a would fall through
              >> > the restrictor. As it falls through the restrictor it will NOT leave
              >> > straight up and down walls. The c/a that would have been near this up and
              >> > down wall will slide into the restrictor leaving the c/a on a slope from
              >> > the restrictor to the inside of the fire extinguisher. The slope will be
              >> > approximately 30 degrees measuring from the vertical at the center of the
              >> > restrictor. If your nozzles are sticking out to far from this c/a slope,
              >> > gases can go around behind the nozzles and tar does not get broken down. If
              >> > the nozzles are between the wire and the wall of the extinguisher, the c/a
              >> > can build up over them. (I'm not sure this would be a bad thing unless it
              >> > plugged the nozzles) A "tar dam" acts like a bottomless tin can and holds
              >> > the c/a in a vertical wall up to and just above the nozzles. This forces
              >> > the a/c (and gases) to go past the hot spot at the nozzle tips thus
              >> > breaking down the tars.
              >> > > The angled nozzles is again something that Stephen came up with. Up
              >> > until he suggested it we mostly ran horizontal nozzles. If your nozzles are
              >> > actually 1/4 in. I.S. diameter, then I guess that should be close and the
              >> > height of the nozzle circle is probably ok. (Look in the files section for
              >> > FAO 72, a government produced booklet. On about pages 61,130,131 are ways
              >> > of calculating these. Mike and I were just kind of eyeballing the sizes.
              >> > > The Kirby vacuum cleaner I'm talking about is just that-- A Kirby
              >> > "up-right" vacuum cleaner. They sold millions of them for years but now
              >> > people want more fancy vacuums. I find that all the up-right are alike
              >> > except the newer ones have a plastic impeller. The old ones have a metal
              >> > impeller (cast Aluminum or pot metal) They were great vacuums in their day
              >> > but they are out dated--let the women in your life know you are looking for
              >> > one and I bet with a little asking around you will find someone who has one
              >> > they no longer use.
              >> > > Good luck. I have an "experimental" thing you might want to try. I will
              >> > post it tomorrow. It is late now so got to go. TomC
              >> > >
              >> > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "Paul A. Cianciolo" <paulc@> wrote:
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Hello Tom,
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > I will try to comment on the points you made.
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Don't take any blame for the pressurization scheme, you may have
              >> > suggested
              >> > > > it but I implemented it , and learned from it so all is good.
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > I will build a manometer which I can use as a test instrument that is
              >> > stable
              >> > > > and repeatable. I have a variac connected to the blow to control the
              >> > > > pressure, a variac is and adjustable transformer.
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > On the nozzle sizes, they are already 1/4" black iron pipe nipples,
              >> > maybe
              >> > > > they look bigger in the pictures.
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > On the nozzle height I just measured and the nozzle is 1" above the
              >> > hot
              >> > > > well, which puts it 3" above the restriction. Is this ok?
              >> > > >
              >> > > > The nozzles are also not angled down on the 60 degree angle, they just
              >> > enter
              >> > > > the side of the burn tube and reach in so far that they are just reach
              >> > the
              >> > > > side of the hot well.
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > I think I understand what you mean about the bent wire and using it as
              >> > a
              >> > > > guide to the height nozzle tube entry. I will measure that up and
              >> > maybe get
              >> > > > some of those fancy angle plates that Stephen sells.
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Do you have a picture of what the internal pump on that Kirby vacuum or
              >> > > > maybe a model # of the vac, I can start looking for one of those.
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Work is not a problem, I just appreciate being able to get suggestions
              >> > from
              >> > > > folks on this list.
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Thank you Tom
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Paul A. Cianciolo
              >> > > >
              >> > > > W1VLF
              >> > > >
              >> > > > <http://www.rescueelectronics.com/> http://www.rescueelectronics.com/
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Our business computer network is powered exclusively by solar and wind
              >> > > > power.
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Converting Photons to Electrons for over 20 years
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On
              >> > Behalf Of
              >> > > > TomC
              >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM
              >> > > > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
              >> > > > Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Hello Paul;
              >> > > > I kind of take blame for your failure (learning curve) today. I
              >> > suggested
              >> > > > that you run pressure. I think you only did part of what I said. I also
              >> > > > suggested that you put a manometer in your manifold so that you would
              >> > know
              >> > > > what kind of pressure you were putting on the system. Remember we are
              >> > only
              >> > > > pulling and/or pushing about 5 in. of h20; that would be 2/10 ths of 1
              >> > psi.
              >> > > > You will need a dimmer switch hooked into the electrical system
              >> > feeding the
              >> > > > shop vac, to slow it down and control the pressure. I hate to see you
              >> > spend
              >> > > > too much time trying to develop a vacuum source. (I did the same thing
              >> > > > several years ago) The best vacuum source I have found is an old Kirby
              >> > > > up-right vacuum cleaner. I got one at Goodwill for $7 and when that is
              >> > > > hooked up to a dimmer switch, I think it is the ultimate source for a
              >> > vacuum
              >> > > > supply.(just my opinion) Mike LaRosa may have a point that the gasifier
              >> > > > dynamics aren't the same under pressure as under a vacuum. It's just
              >> > that
              >> > > > they say they aren't but haven't told me how they differ. The main
              >> > thing
              >> > > > here is; if you push air or pull air, you need a MANOMETER in the
              >> > system to
              >> > > > know what you are doing. Enough on this subject, I was just trying to
              >> > save
              >> > > > you some time developing a fan or ejector or something else to create
              >> > a flow
              >> > > > in the gasifier.
              >> > > > Now lets get serious about getting you some gas burning. YOU HAVE TO
              >> > MAKE
              >> > > > SOME CHANGES!!!. #1.As Mike LaRosa said the diameter of the holes in
              >> > you
              >> > > > nozzles are too big. I would suggest 1/4 in. dia.
              >> > > > #2.As Mike suggested you nozzles are not high enough above the
              >> > restrictor
              >> > > > They should be raised about 2" from what I see in the pictures
              >> > > > #3 This is a little complicated. You have two choices. One (and I
              >> > think the
              >> > > > best) is the "The Tar Dam" that I suggested. I did put some pictures
              >> > of a
              >> > > > TAR DAM in the file.
              >> > > > OR--You need to take a piece of wire, like coat hangar wire, about 12"
              >> > long.
              >> > > > Bend it in the middle into a 60 degree angle. Place the point of the
              >> > angled
              >> > > > wire down in the center of the restriction. Now follow up one leg of
              >> > the
              >> > > > angle to the new height of the nozzles. The distance from that
              >> > intersection
              >> > > > to the center of the gasifier times 2 equals the required nozzle
              >> > diameter.
              >> > > > I realize this is asking for a lot of work but unfortunately, these
              >> > are just
              >> > > > suggestions to get you closer. I could suggest a way to correct all of
              >> > these
              >> > > > problems in one simple way. A member by the name of Joseph Monty built
              >> > a
              >> > > > small gasifier and ran a small Ford car on it. He had a good drawing
              >> > in with
              >> > > > his pictures on this or the Woodgas Builders Group. I tried to contact
              >> > him
              >> > > > to see if I could repost his drawing but did not hear from him.TomC
              >> > > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WoodGas%40yahoogroups.com> ,
              >> > "PAUL"
              >> > > > <paulc@> wrote:
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > The following is an email I sent to Stephen, but thinking about it
              >> > maybe I
              >> > > > should post to the group considering the experience.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > Well today was another run, a burn, or better yet a journey the edge
              >> > of
              >> > > > hell.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > Todays test was a pressure run, instead of trying to vacuum the
              >> > gases out
              >> > > > of the burn tube,I fashioned a manifold made out of PVC with 3 home
              >> > runs of
              >> > > > tubing running off to the 3 nozzles.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > A shop vac is providing the pressurized air feeding the manifold.
              >> > > > > With the shop vac on low I had good flow and pressure coming out of
              >> > the
              >> > > > nozzles, checked this before firing up.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > Some kindling in the hot well, and blocks of wood in the hopper.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > Smoke starts emitting from the vent pipe imediately after the shop
              >> > vas was
              >> > > > turned on, and in 3 minutes or so the gases out of the flare pipe were
              >> > just
              >> > > > on the verge of self-sustaining a flame.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > Then I notice a number of leaks around the cover of the burner. Cant
              >> > have
              >> > > > this so I tried foil tape etc. but could not stop the leaks.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > So I decided in ultimate stupidity to fill the rest of the hopper up
              >> > with
              >> > > > fiberglass insulation. pink stuff. I pressed it in real tight so it
              >> > won't
              >> > > > leak badly.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > The unit was fine for a couple of minutes, but again the leaks
              >> > started and
              >> > > > were worse this time. I figured the fire must be burning up instead of
              >> > down.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > I tried the flame tube again and the flame stayed lit for about a
              >> > minute.
              >> > > > Not being able to tolerate the leaks any longer I shut the unit down.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > When ever I lift the cover off, I always lift so if a flame shoots
              >> > out it
              >> > > > goes away from me. Good thing this time as a big puff of smoke and
              >> > flame
              >> > > > blew out.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > With the cover was off I found the flame was burning up toward the
              >> > cover
              >> > > > and not so much down.
              >> > > > > The flame must be following the leaks.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > Inside were 2 white hot glowing glass tunnels burned down to the
              >> > nozzles.
              >> > > > > One of the scariest things I have ever seen!!! It was getting a free
              >> > > > preview of hell!!!! Molten balls of glass hung to the sides of the
              >> > tunnel.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > So I put some snow on the unit and let it go out and cool down.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > I need to learn the meaning of "air tight" I think the flame
              >> > followed the
              >> > > > air up toward the leak.
              >> > > > > Is this true? I mean if there were no leaks in the hopper would the
              >> > flame
              >> > > > have moved in this direction?
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > With a vacuum system, the leaks posed only the problem of adding air
              >> > to
              >> > > > the fire which would be traveling down in the hot well. And making
              >> > tar???
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > But with pressure it's a whole different ball game.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > However I am not discouraged. I learned a lot tonight. A little at a
              >> > time
              >> > > > I am getting a feel for what is going on inside one of these units.
              >> > > > >
              >> > > > > PauLC
              >> > > > > W1VLF
              >> > > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > ------------------------------------
              >> >
              >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >
              >
            • Clement Aigbogun
              As a matter of fact by the time the wood above is pyrolysed and becomes charcoal the steam from below would set off a reaction releasing flammable gas which
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 4, 2013
                As a matter of fact by the time the wood above is pyrolysed and becomes charcoal the steam from below would set off a reaction releasing flammable gas which can be exploited to advantage. The charcoal above soon turns to ash giving you a chance to refill
                C

                ------------------------------
                On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 12:22 PM GMT-12:00 Clement Aigbogun wrote:

                >
                >The funnel would continue to burn along the line of a funnel but it gets wider and prevents heat loss. You start with charcoal and yuor system would be sterile.. This biomass substance upon ignition immediately turns to charcoal not ash. Now as the first layer turn to charcoal, it ignites the next layer in a continium such that heat starts radiating setting of convection current of hot gases and vapours upward hitting the exposed container housing the wood covered but with a controlled vent which you would observe to close as required.at this point the wood in this upper contianer would be supper hot charcoal. Not that the burn time of the stove(bottom)and the container above housing the wood is different. Your exploiit this and refill your gasifier as required.
                >C
                >------------------------------
                > On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 3:32 AM GMT-12:00 TomC wrote:
                >
                > >Mr. C; I think filling the bottom of the gasifier with charcoal is the best thing to do - don't over think this.
                > > #1 If you did have such a biomass and packed it around like a funnel, then ignited it; it would oxidize (burn) and turn into a very small amount of "ash" and your funnel would be gone. In running the gasifier AFTER the first run, you would generate your own charcoal for the next run. But, why go to all that trouble when you can just fill the bottom up with charcoal and be done with it.
                > > #2 If you make a funnel as you said, and put "wood" in on top, the wood will give off gases (pyrolysis) but there will be NO hot spot in the restrictor to "crack" the gases. You will go thru the same tar making process you would have if you did not make this "funnel". The burning funnel may speed up the process so that you don't have to wait so long to get past the tar stage. But again a lot of work for little advantage. TomC
                > >
                > >--- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Clement Aigbogun <revicaig@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > I was just wondering if the use of another biomass substance that is easy to ignite and would continue to burn would suffice. Now this is very important because of the gas content and the chance to direct steam from within to the charcoal overhead.this powdered biomass you can spread it out to form the shape of a funnel just under the nozzle before loading the wood. What do you think?
                > > C
                > > ------------------------------
                > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 12:33 PM GMT-12:00 Greg Manning wrote:
                > >
                > > > Tom, you are "VERY" correct.
                > > >
                > > >gasifiers work on charcoal, the nozzles, create the charcoal (easy
                > > >explanation)m abd the heat needed to chemically reduce the charcoal.
                > > >
                > > >Greg
                > > >
                > > >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:17 AM, TomC <ginfizz20@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > It's me again;
                > > > I thought of this after I went to bed. YOU MUST START YOUR GASIFIER FOR
                > > > THE FIRST TIME USING "CHARCOAL" not wood!!! If you don't have any charcoal
                > > > go to a store that sells barbeque products and get a bag of "HARD WOOD
                > > > CHUNK" CHARCOAL (not briquets). Break the chunks up into marble or dice
                > > > sized pieces. Fill your gasifier from the grate up to just above the
                > > > nozzles with these. Then put your wood in. If you start with "wood" in the
                > > > bottom you will generate a lot of tar until the unit reaches an equilibrium
                > > > where it makes it's own charcoal. TomC
                > > >
                > > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "TomC" <ginfizz20@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello again Paul and Group;
                > > > > I wasn't with you when you made your run so I am just trying to
                > > > visualize what went on. My impression is that you had so much pressure that
                > > > it caused the lid to leak. This allowed the flame to follow the air flow up
                > > > towards the lid at the same time air/flame was heading to the restrictor.
                > > > If the pressure had not been so high, the lid may have sealed and the
                > > > air/flame would not have gone in that direction. Hot air has mass and will
                > > > flow from a high pressure area to a low pressure area. Thus, the high
                > > > pressure goes from the vacuum cleaner(blower) to and through the nozzles,
                > > > then down through the restrictor, and out into the atmosphere where you try
                > > > to "flare" it. From the nozzle tips where the "fire" is, "radiant" heat is
                > > > created. Radiant heat has no mass so it will go any and all directions from
                > > > the source. The radiant heat that travels upwards dries the wood and
                > > > causes Pyrolysis of the wood in the silo. By the time the wood gets to the
                > > > area of the nozzles, it should be glowing hot charcoal. I'm glad to hear
                > > > that you have a "speed"control on you shop vac. So how much pressure do you
                > > > think you were pushing into the gasifier-- would you say it was a pressure
                > > > or just a "heavy breeze"??
                > > > > About the "bent piece of wire". Stephen came up with that. If you
                > > > had no grate and you started filling the gasifier up above the nozzles with
                > > > char/ash, the first thing that would happen is the c/a would fall through
                > > > the restrictor. As it falls through the restrictor it will NOT leave
                > > > straight up and down walls. The c/a that would have been near this up and
                > > > down wall will slide into the restrictor leaving the c/a on a slope from
                > > > the restrictor to the inside of the fire extinguisher. The slope will be
                > > > approximately 30 degrees measuring from the vertical at the center of the
                > > > restrictor. If your nozzles are sticking out to far from this c/a slope,
                > > > gases can go around behind the nozzles and tar does not get broken down. If
                > > > the nozzles are between the wire and the wall of the extinguisher, the c/a
                > > > can build up over them. (I'm not sure this would be a bad thing unless it
                > > > plugged the nozzles) A "tar dam" acts like a bottomless tin can and holds
                > > > the c/a in a vertical wall up to and just above the nozzles. This forces
                > > > the a/c (and gases) to go past the hot spot at the nozzle tips thus
                > > > breaking down the tars.
                > > > > The angled nozzles is again something that Stephen came up with. Up
                > > > until he suggested it we mostly ran horizontal nozzles. If your nozzles are
                > > > actually 1/4 in. I.S. diameter, then I guess that should be close and the
                > > > height of the nozzle circle is probably ok. (Look in the files section for
                > > > FAO 72, a government produced booklet. On about pages 61,130,131 are ways
                > > > of calculating these. Mike and I were just kind of eyeballing the sizes.
                > > > > The Kirby vacuum cleaner I'm talking about is just that-- A Kirby
                > > > "up-right" vacuum cleaner. They sold millions of them for years but now
                > > > people want more fancy vacuums. I find that all the up-right are alike
                > > > except the newer ones have a plastic impeller. The old ones have a metal
                > > > impeller (cast Aluminum or pot metal) They were great vacuums in their day
                > > > but they are out dated--let the women in your life know you are looking for
                > > > one and I bet with a little asking around you will find someone who has one
                > > > they no longer use.
                > > > > Good luck. I have an "experimental" thing you might want to try. I will
                > > > post it tomorrow. It is late now so got to go. TomC
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "Paul A. Cianciolo" <paulc@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hello Tom,
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I will try to comment on the points you made.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Don't take any blame for the pressurization scheme, you may have
                > > > suggested
                > > > > > it but I implemented it , and learned from it so all is good.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I will build a manometer which I can use as a test instrument that is
                > > > stable
                > > > > > and repeatable. I have a variac connected to the blow to control the
                > > > > > pressure, a variac is and adjustable transformer.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > On the nozzle sizes, they are already 1/4" black iron pipe nipples,
                > > > maybe
                > > > > > they look bigger in the pictures.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > On the nozzle height I just measured and the nozzle is 1" above the
                > > > hot
                > > > > > well, which puts it 3" above the restriction. Is this ok?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The nozzles are also not angled down on the 60 degree angle, they just
                > > > enter
                > > > > > the side of the burn tube and reach in so far that they are just reach
                > > > the
                > > > > > side of the hot well.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I think I understand what you mean about the bent wire and using it as
                > > > a
                > > > > > guide to the height nozzle tube entry. I will measure that up and
                > > > maybe get
                > > > > > some of those fancy angle plates that Stephen sells.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Do you have a picture of what the internal pump on that Kirby vacuum or
                > > > > > maybe a model # of the vac, I can start looking for one of those.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Work is not a problem, I just appreciate being able to get suggestions
                > > > from
                > > > > > folks on this list.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Thank you Tom
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Paul A. Cianciolo
                > > > > >
                > > > > > W1VLF
                > > > > >
                > > > > > <http://www.rescueelectronics.com/> http://www.rescueelectronics.com/
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Our business computer network is powered exclusively by solar and wind
                > > > > > power.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Converting Photons to Electrons for over 20 years
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On
                > > > Behalf Of
                > > > > > TomC
                > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM
                > > > > > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hello Paul;
                > > > > > I kind of take blame for your failure (learning curve) today. I
                > > > suggested
                > > > > > that you run pressure. I think you only did part of what I said. I also
                > > > > > suggested that you put a manometer in your manifold so that you would
                > > > know
                > > > > > what kind of pressure you were putting on the system. Remember we are
                > > > only
                > > > > > pulling and/or pushing about 5 in. of h20; that would be 2/10 ths of 1
                > > > psi.
                > > > > > You will need a dimmer switch hooked into the electrical system
                > > > feeding the
                > > > > > shop vac, to slow it down and control the pressure. I hate to see you
                > > > spend
                > > > > > too much time trying to develop a vacuum source. (I did the same thing
                > > > > > several years ago) The best vacuum source I have found is an old Kirby
                > > > > > up-right vacuum cleaner. I got one at Goodwill for $7 and when that is
                > > > > > hooked up to a dimmer switch, I think it is the ultimate source for a
                > > > vacuum
                > > > > > supply.(just my opinion) Mike LaRosa may have a point that the gasifier
                > > > > > dynamics aren't the same under pressure as under a vacuum. It's just
                > > > that
                > > > > > they say they aren't but haven't told me how they differ. The main
                > > > thing
                > > > > > here is; if you push air or pull air, you need a MANOMETER in the
                > > > system to
                > > > > > know what you are doing. Enough on this subject, I was just trying to
                > > > save
                > > > > > you some time developing a fan or ejector or something else to create
                > > > a flow
                > > > > > in the gasifier.
                > > > > > Now lets get serious about getting you some gas burning. YOU HAVE TO
                > > > MAKE
                > > > > > SOME CHANGES!!!. #1.As Mike LaRosa said the diameter of the holes in
                > > > you
                > > > > > nozzles are too big. I would suggest 1/4 in. dia.
                > > > > > #2.As Mike suggested you nozzles are not high enough above the
                > > > restrictor
                > > > > > They should be raised about 2" from what I see in the pictures
                > > > > > #3 This is a little complicated. You have two choices. One (and I
                > > > think the
                > > > > > best) is the "The Tar Dam" that I suggested. I did put some pictures
                > > > of a
                > > > > > TAR DAM in the file.
                > > > > > OR--You need to take a piece of wire, like coat hangar wire, about 12"
                > > > long.
                > > > > > Bend it in the middle into a 60 degree angle. Place the point of the
                > > > angled
                > > > > > wire down in the center of the restriction. Now follow up one leg of
                > > > the
                > > > > > angle to the new height of the nozzles. The distance from that
                > > > intersection
                > > > > > to the center of the gasifier times 2 equals the required nozzle
                > > > diameter.
                > > > > > I realize this is asking for a lot of work but unfortunately, these
                > > > are just
                > > > > > suggestions to get you closer. I could suggest a way to correct all of
                > > > these
                > > > > > problems in one simple way. A member by the name of Joseph Monty built
                > > > a
                > > > > > small gasifier and ran a small Ford car on it. He had a good drawing
                > > > in with
                > > > > > his pictures on this or the Woodgas Builders Group. I tried to contact
                > > > him
                > > > > > to see if I could repost his drawing but did not hear from him.TomC
                > > > > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WoodGas%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                > > > "PAUL"
                > > > > > <paulc@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > The following is an email I sent to Stephen, but thinking about it
                > > > maybe I
                > > > > > should post to the group considering the experience.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Well today was another run, a burn, or better yet a journey the edge
                > > > of
                > > > > > hell.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Todays test was a pressure run, instead of trying to vacuum the
                > > > gases out
                > > > > > of the burn tube,I fashioned a manifold made out of PVC with 3 home
                > > > runs of
                > > > > > tubing running off to the 3 nozzles.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > A shop vac is providing the pressurized air feeding the manifold.
                > > > > > > With the shop vac on low I had good flow and pressure coming out of
                > > > the
                > > > > > nozzles, checked this before firing up.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Some kindling in the hot well, and blocks of wood in the hopper.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Smoke starts emitting from the vent pipe imediately after the shop
                > > > vas was
                > > > > > turned on, and in 3 minutes or so the gases out of the flare pipe were
                > > > just
                > > > > > on the verge of self-sustaining a flame.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Then I notice a number of leaks around the cover of the burner. Cant
                > > > have
                > > > > > this so I tried foil tape etc. but could not stop the leaks.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > So I decided in ultimate stupidity to fill the rest of the hopper up
                > > > with
                > > > > > fiberglass insulation. pink stuff. I pressed it in real tight so it
                > > > won't
                > > > > > leak badly.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > The unit was fine for a couple of minutes, but again the leaks
                > > > started and
                > > > > > were worse this time. I figured the fire must be burning up instead of
                > > > down.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I tried the flame tube again and the flame stayed lit for about a
                > > > minute.
                > > > > > Not being able to tolerate the leaks any longer I shut the unit down.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > When ever I lift the cover off, I always lift so if a flame shoots
                > > > out it
                > > > > > goes away from me. Good thing this time as a big puff of smoke and
                > > > flame
                > > > > > blew out.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > With the cover was off I found the flame was burning up toward the
                > > > cover
                > > > > > and not so much down.
                > > > > > > The flame must be following the leaks.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Inside were 2 white hot glowing glass tunnels burned down to the
                > > > nozzles.
                > > > > > > One of the scariest things I have ever seen!!! It was getting a free
                > > > > > preview of hell!!!! Molten balls of glass hung to the sides of the
                > > > tunnel.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > So I put some snow on the unit and let it go out and cool down.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I need to learn the meaning of "air tight" I think the flame
                > > > followed the
                > > > > > air up toward the leak.
                > > > > > > Is this true? I mean if there were no leaks in the hopper would the
                > > > flame
                > > > > > have moved in this direction?
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > With a vacuum system, the leaks posed only the problem of adding air
                > > > to
                > > > > > the fire which would be traveling down in the hot well. And making
                > > > tar???
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > But with pressure it's a whole different ball game.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > However I am not discouraged. I learned a lot tonight. A little at a
                > > > time
                > > > > > I am getting a feel for what is going on inside one of these units.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > PauLC
                > > > > > > W1VLF
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • Clement Aigbogun
                There is no contact between content of stove and wood even though they are both confined within same design. The stove is the hot bed. The heat would burn
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 4, 2013
                  There is no contact between content of stove and wood even though they are both confined within same design. The stove is the hot bed. The heat would burn anything
                  ------------------------------
                  On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 3:56 AM GMT-12:00 chuck potts wrote:

                  >I agree with TomC, if you break up charcoal and put it in the bottom and have that to start, it will be a good char bed to start the gasser on and from there on out don't burn it all the way down and save the char bed so you have a place to start from. As far as the type of charcoal you use I have used all kinds with good results, even the self starting charcoal. I just put the charcoal in a strong feed bag and set it on my barn floor and slam a 4x4 end down on it until I get the size I need about 3/4" or so, maybe a bit smaller. I fact I have to do that this weekend, as I had a little puff out of my gasser and it messed up my char bed the last time I ran it. I have to clean it out and check I may have enough of the char after the clean out to put back in the bottom if not then I have some charcoal to use. One tip I should have used but didn't, save back a 5 gal bucket of char just for this occasion. I guess I always learn the hard way.lol Thanks Chuck

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                  >From: ginfizz20@...
                  >Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:32:00 +0000
                  >Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano Tom's Suggestions
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Mr. C; I think filling the bottom of the gasifier with charcoal is the best thing to do - don't over think this.
                  >#1 If you did have such a biomass and packed it around like a funnel, then ignited it; it would oxidize (burn) and turn into a very small amount of "ash" and your funnel would be gone. In running the gasifier AFTER the first run, you would generate your own charcoal for the next run. But, why go to all that trouble when you can just fill the bottom up with charcoal and be done with it.
                  >#2 If you make a funnel as you said, and put "wood" in on top, the wood will give off gases (pyrolysis) but there will be NO hot spot in the restrictor to "crack" the gases. You will go thru the same tar making process you would have if you did not make this "funnel". The burning funnel may speed up the process so that you don't have to wait so long to get past the tar stage. But again a lot of work for little advantage. TomC
                  >
                  >--- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Clement Aigbogun <revicaig@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> I was just wondering if the use of another biomass substance that is easy to ignite and would continue to burn would suffice. Now this is very important because of the gas content and the chance to direct steam from within to the charcoal overhead.this powdered biomass you can spread it out to form the shape of a funnel just under the nozzle before loading the wood. What do you think?
                  >> C
                  >> ------------------------------
                  >> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 12:33 PM GMT-12:00 Greg Manning wrote:
                  >>
                  >> > Tom, you are "VERY" correct.
                  >> >
                  >> >gasifiers work on charcoal, the nozzles, create the charcoal (easy
                  >> >explanation)m abd the heat needed to chemically reduce the charcoal.
                  >> >
                  >> >Greg
                  >> >
                  >> >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:17 AM, TomC <ginfizz20@...> wrote:
                  >> >
                  >> > It's me again;
                  >> > I thought of this after I went to bed. YOU MUST START YOUR GASIFIER FOR
                  >> > THE FIRST TIME USING "CHARCOAL" not wood!!! If you don't have any charcoal
                  >> > go to a store that sells barbeque products and get a bag of "HARD WOOD
                  >> > CHUNK" CHARCOAL (not briquets). Break the chunks up into marble or dice
                  >> > sized pieces. Fill your gasifier from the grate up to just above the
                  >> > nozzles with these. Then put your wood in. If you start with "wood" in the
                  >> > bottom you will generate a lot of tar until the unit reaches an equilibrium
                  >> > where it makes it's own charcoal. TomC
                  >> >
                  >> > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "TomC" <ginfizz20@> wrote:
                  >> > >
                  >> > >
                  >> > > Hello again Paul and Group;
                  >> > > I wasn't with you when you made your run so I am just trying to
                  >> > visualize what went on. My impression is that you had so much pressure that
                  >> > it caused the lid to leak. This allowed the flame to follow the air flow up
                  >> > towards the lid at the same time air/flame was heading to the restrictor.
                  >> > If the pressure had not been so high, the lid may have sealed and the
                  >> > air/flame would not have gone in that direction. Hot air has mass and will
                  >> > flow from a high pressure area to a low pressure area. Thus, the high
                  >> > pressure goes from the vacuum cleaner(blower) to and through the nozzles,
                  >> > then down through the restrictor, and out into the atmosphere where you try
                  >> > to "flare" it. From the nozzle tips where the "fire" is, "radiant" heat is
                  >> > created. Radiant heat has no mass so it will go any and all directions from
                  >> > the source. The radiant heat that travels upwards dries the wood and
                  >> > causes Pyrolysis of the wood in the silo. By the time the wood gets to the
                  >> > area of the nozzles, it should be glowing hot charcoal. I'm glad to hear
                  >> > that you have a "speed"control on you shop vac. So how much pressure do you
                  >> > think you were pushing into the gasifier-- would you say it was a pressure
                  >> > or just a "heavy breeze"??
                  >> > > About the "bent piece of wire". Stephen came up with that. If you
                  >> > had no grate and you started filling the gasifier up above the nozzles with
                  >> > char/ash, the first thing that would happen is the c/a would fall through
                  >> > the restrictor. As it falls through the restrictor it will NOT leave
                  >> > straight up and down walls. The c/a that would have been near this up and
                  >> > down wall will slide into the restrictor leaving the c/a on a slope from
                  >> > the restrictor to the inside of the fire extinguisher. The slope will be
                  >> > approximately 30 degrees measuring from the vertical at the center of the
                  >> > restrictor. If your nozzles are sticking out to far from this c/a slope,
                  >> > gases can go around behind the nozzles and tar does not get broken down. If
                  >> > the nozzles are between the wire and the wall of the extinguisher, the c/a
                  >> > can build up over them. (I'm not sure this would be a bad thing unless it
                  >> > plugged the nozzles) A "tar dam" acts like a bottomless tin can and holds
                  >> > the c/a in a vertical wall up to and just above the nozzles. This forces
                  >> > the a/c (and gases) to go past the hot spot at the nozzle tips thus
                  >> > breaking down the tars.
                  >> > > The angled nozzles is again something that Stephen came up with. Up
                  >> > until he suggested it we mostly ran horizontal nozzles. If your nozzles are
                  >> > actually 1/4 in. I.S. diameter, then I guess that should be close and the
                  >> > height of the nozzle circle is probably ok. (Look in the files section for
                  >> > FAO 72, a government produced booklet. On about pages 61,130,131 are ways
                  >> > of calculating these. Mike and I were just kind of eyeballing the sizes.
                  >> > > The Kirby vacuum cleaner I'm talking about is just that-- A Kirby
                  >> > "up-right" vacuum cleaner. They sold millions of them for years but now
                  >> > people want more fancy vacuums. I find that all the up-right are alike
                  >> > except the newer ones have a plastic impeller. The old ones have a metal
                  >> > impeller (cast Aluminum or pot metal) They were great vacuums in their day
                  >> > but they are out dated--let the women in your life know you are looking for
                  >> > one and I bet with a little asking around you will find someone who has one
                  >> > they no longer use.
                  >> > > Good luck. I have an "experimental" thing you might want to try. I will
                  >> > post it tomorrow. It is late now so got to go. TomC
                  >> > >
                  >> > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "Paul A. Cianciolo" <paulc@> wrote:
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > Hello Tom,
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > I will try to comment on the points you made.
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > Don't take any blame for the pressurization scheme, you may have
                  >> > suggested
                  >> > > > it but I implemented it , and learned from it so all is good.
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > I will build a manometer which I can use as a test instrument that is
                  >> > stable
                  >> > > > and repeatable. I have a variac connected to the blow to control the
                  >> > > > pressure, a variac is and adjustable transformer.
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > On the nozzle sizes, they are already 1/4" black iron pipe nipples,
                  >> > maybe
                  >> > > > they look bigger in the pictures.
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > On the nozzle height I just measured and the nozzle is 1" above the
                  >> > hot
                  >> > > > well, which puts it 3" above the restriction. Is this ok?
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > The nozzles are also not angled down on the 60 degree angle, they just
                  >> > enter
                  >> > > > the side of the burn tube and reach in so far that they are just reach
                  >> > the
                  >> > > > side of the hot well.
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > I think I understand what you mean about the bent wire and using it as
                  >> > a
                  >> > > > guide to the height nozzle tube entry. I will measure that up and
                  >> > maybe get
                  >> > > > some of those fancy angle plates that Stephen sells.
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > Do you have a picture of what the internal pump on that Kirby vacuum or
                  >> > > > maybe a model # of the vac, I can start looking for one of those.
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > Work is not a problem, I just appreciate being able to get suggestions
                  >> > from
                  >> > > > folks on this list.
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > Thank you Tom
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > Paul A. Cianciolo
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > W1VLF
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > <http://www.rescueelectronics.com/> http://www.rescueelectronics.com/
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > Our business computer network is powered exclusively by solar and wind
                  >> > > > power.
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > Converting Photons to Electrons for over 20 years
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On
                  >> > Behalf Of
                  >> > > > TomC
                  >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM
                  >> > > > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                  >> > > > Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > > > Hello Paul;
                  >> > > > I kind of take blame for your failure (learning curve) today. I
                  >> > suggested
                  >> > > > that you run pressure. I think you only did part of what I said. I also
                  >> > > > suggested that you put a manometer in your manifold so that you would
                  >> > know
                  >> > > > what kind of pressure you were putting on the system. Remember we are
                  >> > only
                  >> > > > pulling and/or pushing about 5 in. of h20; that would be 2/10 ths of 1
                  >> > psi.
                  >> > > > You will need a dimmer switch hooked into the electrical system
                  >> > feeding the
                  >> > > > shop vac, to slow it down and control the pressure. I hate to see you
                  >> > spend
                  >> > > > too much time trying to develop a vacuum source. (I did the same thing
                  >> > > > several years ago) The best vacuum source I have found is an old Kirby
                  >> > > > up-right vacuum cleaner. I got one at Goodwill for $7 and when that is
                  >> > > > hooked up to a dimmer switch, I think it is the ultimate source for a
                  >> > vacuum
                  >> > > > supply.(just my opinion) Mike LaRosa may have a point that the gasifier
                  >> > > > dynamics aren't the same under pressure as under a vacuum. It's just
                  >> > that
                  >> > > > they say they aren't but haven't told me how they differ. The main
                  >> > thing
                  >> > > > here is; if you push air or pull air, you need a MANOMETER in the
                  >> > system to
                  >> > > > know what you are doing. Enough on this subject, I was just trying to
                  >> > save
                  >> > > > you some time developing a fan or ejector or something else to create
                  >> > a flow
                  >> > > > in the gasifier.
                  >> > > > Now lets get serious about getting you some gas burning. YOU HAVE TO
                  >> > MAKE
                  >> > > > SOME CHANGES!!!. #1.As Mike LaRosa said the diameter of the holes in
                  >> > you
                  >> > > > nozzles are too big. I would suggest 1/4 in. dia.
                  >> > > > #2.As Mike suggested you nozzles are not high enough above the
                  >> > restrictor
                  >> > > > They should be raised about 2" from what I see in the pictures
                  >> > > > #3 This is a little complicated. You have two choices. One (and I
                  >> > think the
                  >> > > > best) is the "The Tar Dam" that I suggested. I did put some pictures
                  >> > of a
                  >> > > > TAR DAM in the file.
                  >> > > > OR--You need to take a piece of wire, like coat hangar wire, about 12"
                  >> > long.
                  >> > > > Bend it in the middle into a 60 degree angle. Place the point of the
                  >> > angled
                  >> > > > wire down in the center of the restriction. Now follow up one leg of
                  >> > the
                  >> > > > angle to the new height of the nozzles. The distance from that
                  >> > intersection
                  >> > > > to the center of the gasifier times 2 equals the required nozzle
                  >> > diameter.
                  >> > > > I realize this is asking for a lot of work but unfortunately, these
                  >> > are just
                  >> > > > suggestions to get you closer. I could suggest a way to correct all of
                  >> > these
                  >> > > > problems in one simple way. A member by the name of Joseph Monty built
                  >> > a
                  >> > > > small gasifier and ran a small Ford car on it. He had a good drawing
                  >> > in with
                  >> > > > his pictures on this or the Woodgas Builders Group. I tried to contact
                  >> > him
                  >> > > > to see if I could repost his drawing but did not hear from him.TomC
                  >> > > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WoodGas%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                  >> > "PAUL"
                  >> > > > <paulc@> wrote:
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > The following is an email I sent to Stephen, but thinking about it
                  >> > maybe I
                  >> > > > should post to the group considering the experience.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > Well today was another run, a burn, or better yet a journey the edge
                  >> > of
                  >> > > > hell.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > Todays test was a pressure run, instead of trying to vacuum the
                  >> > gases out
                  >> > > > of the burn tube,I fashioned a manifold made out of PVC with 3 home
                  >> > runs of
                  >> > > > tubing running off to the 3 nozzles.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > A shop vac is providing the pressurized air feeding the manifold.
                  >> > > > > With the shop vac on low I had good flow and pressure coming out of
                  >> > the
                  >> > > > nozzles, checked this before firing up.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > Some kindling in the hot well, and blocks of wood in the hopper.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > Smoke starts emitting from the vent pipe imediately after the shop
                  >> > vas was
                  >> > > > turned on, and in 3 minutes or so the gases out of the flare pipe were
                  >> > just
                  >> > > > on the verge of self-sustaining a flame.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > Then I notice a number of leaks around the cover of the burner. Cant
                  >> > have
                  >> > > > this so I tried foil tape etc. but could not stop the leaks.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > So I decided in ultimate stupidity to fill the rest of the hopper up
                  >> > with
                  >> > > > fiberglass insulation. pink stuff. I pressed it in real tight so it
                  >> > won't
                  >> > > > leak badly.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > The unit was fine for a couple of minutes, but again the leaks
                  >> > started and
                  >> > > > were worse this time. I figured the fire must be burning up instead of
                  >> > down.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > I tried the flame tube again and the flame stayed lit for about a
                  >> > minute.
                  >> > > > Not being able to tolerate the leaks any longer I shut the unit down.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > When ever I lift the cover off, I always lift so if a flame shoots
                  >> > out it
                  >> > > > goes away from me. Good thing this time as a big puff of smoke and
                  >> > flame
                  >> > > > blew out.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > With the cover was off I found the flame was burning up toward the
                  >> > cover
                  >> > > > and not so much down.
                  >> > > > > The flame must be following the leaks.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > Inside were 2 white hot glowing glass tunnels burned down to the
                  >> > nozzles.
                  >> > > > > One of the scariest things I have ever seen!!! It was getting a free
                  >> > > > preview of hell!!!! Molten balls of glass hung to the sides of the
                  >> > tunnel.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > So I put some snow on the unit and let it go out and cool down.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > I need to learn the meaning of "air tight" I think the flame
                  >> > followed the
                  >> > > > air up toward the leak.
                  >> > > > > Is this true? I mean if there were no leaks in the hopper would the
                  >> > flame
                  >> > > > have moved in this direction?
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > With a vacuum system, the leaks posed only the problem of adding air
                  >> > to
                  >> > > > the fire which would be traveling down in the hot well. And making
                  >> > tar???
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > But with pressure it's a whole different ball game.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > However I am not discouraged. I learned a lot tonight. A little at a
                  >> > time
                  >> > > > I am getting a feel for what is going on inside one of these units.
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > > > PauLC
                  >> > > > > W1VLF
                  >> > > > >
                  >> > > >
                  >> > >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > ------------------------------------
                  >> >
                  >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • TomC
                  Greg; seven-15 eight-54 two-158 TomC.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 4, 2013
                    Greg; seven-15 eight-54 two-158
                    TomC.

                    --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Greg Manning <a31ford@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Tom... whats your PH# ?? (reply in private if you do not want the list to
                    > see), I need to call you.....
                    >
                    > Greg
                    >
                    >
                    > On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:56 AM, chuck potts <chuckpallen@...>wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I agree with TomC, if you break up charcoal and put it in the bottom and
                    > > have that to start, it will be a good char bed to start the gasser on and
                    > > from there on out don't burn it all the way down and save the char bed so
                    > > you have a place to start from. As far as the type of charcoal you use I
                    > > have used all kinds with good results, even the self starting charcoal. I
                    > > just put the charcoal in a strong feed bag and set it on my barn floor and
                    > > slam a 4x4 end down on it until I get the size I need about 3/4" or so,
                    > > maybe a bit smaller. I fact I have to do that this weekend, as I had a
                    > > little puff out of my gasser and it messed up my char bed the last time I
                    > > ran it. I have to clean it out and check I may have enough of the char
                    > > after the clean out to put back in the bottom if not then I have some
                    > > charcoal to use. One tip I should have used but didn't, save back a 5 gal
                    > > bucket of char just for this occasion. I guess I always learn the hard
                    > > way.lol Thanks Chuck
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------
                    > > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                    > > From: ginfizz20@...
                    > > Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:32:00 +0000
                    > > Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano Tom's
                    > > Suggestions
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Mr. C; I think filling the bottom of the gasifier with charcoal is the
                    > > best thing to do - don't over think this.
                    > > #1 If you did have such a biomass and packed it around like a funnel, then
                    > > ignited it; it would oxidize (burn) and turn into a very small amount of
                    > > "ash" and your funnel would be gone. In running the gasifier AFTER the
                    > > first run, you would generate your own charcoal for the next run. But, why
                    > > go to all that trouble when you can just fill the bottom up with charcoal
                    > > and be done with it.
                    > > #2 If you make a funnel as you said, and put "wood" in on top, the wood
                    > > will give off gases (pyrolysis) but there will be NO hot spot in the
                    > > restrictor to "crack" the gases. You will go thru the same tar making
                    > > process you would have if you did not make this "funnel". The burning
                    > > funnel may speed up the process so that you don't have to wait so long to
                    > > get past the tar stage. But again a lot of work for little advantage. TomC
                    > >
                    > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Clement Aigbogun <revicaig@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I was just wondering if the use of another biomass substance that is
                    > > easy to ignite and would continue to burn would suffice. Now this is very
                    > > important because of the gas content and the chance to direct steam from
                    > > within to the charcoal overhead.this powdered biomass you can spread it out
                    > > to form the shape of a funnel just under the nozzle before loading the
                    > > wood. What do you think?
                    > > > C
                    > > > ------------------------------
                    > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 12:33 PM GMT-12:00 Greg Manning wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Tom, you are "VERY" correct.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >gasifiers work on charcoal, the nozzles, create the charcoal (easy
                    > > > >explanation)m abd the heat needed to chemically reduce the charcoal.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Greg
                    > > > >
                    > > > >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:17 AM, TomC <ginfizz20@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >> It's me again;
                    > > > >> I thought of this after I went to bed. YOU MUST START YOUR GASIFIER
                    > > FOR
                    > > > >> THE FIRST TIME USING "CHARCOAL" not wood!!! If you don't have any
                    > > charcoal
                    > > > >> go to a store that sells barbeque products and get a bag of "HARD WOOD
                    > > > >> CHUNK" CHARCOAL (not briquets). Break the chunks up into marble or
                    > > dice
                    > > > >> sized pieces. Fill your gasifier from the grate up to just above the
                    > > > >> nozzles with these. Then put your wood in. If you start with "wood"
                    > > in the
                    > > > >> bottom you will generate a lot of tar until the unit reaches an
                    > > equilibrium
                    > > > >> where it makes it's own charcoal. TomC
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "TomC" <ginfizz20@> wrote:
                    > > > >> >
                    > > > >> >
                    > > > >> > Hello again Paul and Group;
                    > > > >> > I wasn't with you when you made your run so I am just trying to
                    > > > >> visualize what went on. My impression is that you had so much
                    > > pressure that
                    > > > >> it caused the lid to leak. This allowed the flame to follow the air
                    > > flow up
                    > > > >> towards the lid at the same time air/flame was heading to the
                    > > restrictor.
                    > > > >> If the pressure had not been so high, the lid may have sealed and the
                    > > > >> air/flame would not have gone in that direction. Hot air has mass and
                    > > will
                    > > > >> flow from a high pressure area to a low pressure area. Thus, the high
                    > > > >> pressure goes from the vacuum cleaner(blower) to and through the
                    > > nozzles,
                    > > > >> then down through the restrictor, and out into the atmosphere where
                    > > you try
                    > > > >> to "flare" it. From the nozzle tips where the "fire" is, "radiant"
                    > > heat is
                    > > > >> created. Radiant heat has no mass so it will go any and all
                    > > directions from
                    > > > >> the source. The radiant heat that travels upwards dries the wood and
                    > > > >> causes Pyrolysis of the wood in the silo. By the time the wood gets
                    > > to the
                    > > > >> area of the nozzles, it should be glowing hot charcoal. I'm glad to
                    > > hear
                    > > > >> that you have a "speed"control on you shop vac. So how much pressure
                    > > do you
                    > > > >> think you were pushing into the gasifier-- would you say it was a
                    > > pressure
                    > > > >> or just a "heavy breeze"??
                    > > > >> > About the "bent piece of wire". Stephen came up with that. If you
                    > > > >> had no grate and you started filling the gasifier up above the
                    > > nozzles with
                    > > > >> char/ash, the first thing that would happen is the c/a would fall
                    > > through
                    > > > >> the restrictor. As it falls through the restrictor it will NOT leave
                    > > > >> straight up and down walls. The c/a that would have been near this up
                    > > and
                    > > > >> down wall will slide into the restrictor leaving the c/a on a slope
                    > > from
                    > > > >> the restrictor to the inside of the fire extinguisher. The slope will
                    > > be
                    > > > >> approximately 30 degrees measuring from the vertical at the center of
                    > > the
                    > > > >> restrictor. If your nozzles are sticking out to far from this c/a
                    > > slope,
                    > > > >> gases can go around behind the nozzles and tar does not get broken
                    > > down. If
                    > > > >> the nozzles are between the wire and the wall of the extinguisher,
                    > > the c/a
                    > > > >> can build up over them. (I'm not sure this would be a bad thing
                    > > unless it
                    > > > >> plugged the nozzles) A "tar dam" acts like a bottomless tin can and
                    > > holds
                    > > > >> the c/a in a vertical wall up to and just above the nozzles. This
                    > > forces
                    > > > >> the a/c (and gases) to go past the hot spot at the nozzle tips thus
                    > > > >> breaking down the tars.
                    > > > >> > The angled nozzles is again something that Stephen came up with. Up
                    > > > >> until he suggested it we mostly ran horizontal nozzles. If your
                    > > nozzles are
                    > > > >> actually 1/4 in. I.S. diameter, then I guess that should be close and
                    > > the
                    > > > >> height of the nozzle circle is probably ok. (Look in the files
                    > > section for
                    > > > >> FAO 72, a government produced booklet. On about pages 61,130,131 are
                    > > ways
                    > > > >> of calculating these. Mike and I were just kind of eyeballing the
                    > > sizes.
                    > > > >> > The Kirby vacuum cleaner I'm talking about is just that-- A Kirby
                    > > > >> "up-right" vacuum cleaner. They sold millions of them for years but
                    > > now
                    > > > >> people want more fancy vacuums. I find that all the up-right are alike
                    > > > >> except the newer ones have a plastic impeller. The old ones have a
                    > > metal
                    > > > >> impeller (cast Aluminum or pot metal) They were great vacuums in
                    > > their day
                    > > > >> but they are out dated--let the women in your life know you are
                    > > looking for
                    > > > >> one and I bet with a little asking around you will find someone who
                    > > has one
                    > > > >> they no longer use.
                    > > > >> > Good luck. I have an "experimental" thing you might want to try. I
                    > > will
                    > > > >> post it tomorrow. It is late now so got to go. TomC
                    > > > >> >
                    > > > >> > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "Paul A. Cianciolo" <paulc@> wrote:
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > Hello Tom,
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > I will try to comment on the points you made.
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > Don't take any blame for the pressurization scheme, you may have
                    > > > >> suggested
                    > > > >> > > it but I implemented it , and learned from it so all is good.
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > I will build a manometer which I can use as a test instrument
                    > > that is
                    > > > >> stable
                    > > > >> > > and repeatable. I have a variac connected to the blow to control
                    > > the
                    > > > >> > > pressure, a variac is and adjustable transformer.
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > On the nozzle sizes, they are already 1/4" black iron pipe
                    > > nipples,
                    > > > >> maybe
                    > > > >> > > they look bigger in the pictures.
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > On the nozzle height I just measured and the nozzle is 1" above
                    > > the
                    > > > >> hot
                    > > > >> > > well, which puts it 3" above the restriction. Is this ok?
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > The nozzles are also not angled down on the 60 degree angle, they
                    > > just
                    > > > >> enter
                    > > > >> > > the side of the burn tube and reach in so far that they are just
                    > > reach
                    > > > >> the
                    > > > >> > > side of the hot well.
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > I think I understand what you mean about the bent wire and using
                    > > it as
                    > > > >> a
                    > > > >> > > guide to the height nozzle tube entry. I will measure that up and
                    > > > >> maybe get
                    > > > >> > > some of those fancy angle plates that Stephen sells.
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > Do you have a picture of what the internal pump on that Kirby
                    > > vacuum or
                    > > > >> > > maybe a model # of the vac, I can start looking for one of those.
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > Work is not a problem, I just appreciate being able to get
                    > > suggestions
                    > > > >> from
                    > > > >> > > folks on this list.
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > Thank you Tom
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > Paul A. Cianciolo
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > W1VLF
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > <http://www.rescueelectronics.com/>
                    > > http://www.rescueelectronics.com/
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > Our business computer network is powered exclusively by solar and
                    > > wind
                    > > > >> > > power.
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > Converting Photons to Electrons for over 20 years
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > > > >> Behalf Of
                    > > > >> > > TomC
                    > > > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM
                    > > > >> > > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >> > > Subject: [WoodGas] Re: A brief look into the mouth of a volcano
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> > > Hello Paul;
                    > > > >> > > I kind of take blame for your failure (learning curve) today. I
                    > > > >> suggested
                    > > > >> > > that you run pressure. I think you only did part of what I said.
                    > > I also
                    > > > >> > > suggested that you put a manometer in your manifold so that you
                    > > would
                    > > > >> know
                    > > > >> > > what kind of pressure you were putting on the system. Remember we
                    > > are
                    > > > >> only
                    > > > >> > > pulling and/or pushing about 5 in. of h20; that would be 2/10 ths
                    > > of 1
                    > > > >> psi.
                    > > > >> > > You will need a dimmer switch hooked into the electrical system
                    > > > >> feeding the
                    > > > >> > > shop vac, to slow it down and control the pressure. I hate to see
                    > > you
                    > > > >> spend
                    > > > >> > > too much time trying to develop a vacuum source. (I did the same
                    > > thing
                    > > > >> > > several years ago) The best vacuum source I have found is an old
                    > > Kirby
                    > > > >> > > up-right vacuum cleaner. I got one at Goodwill for $7 and when
                    > > that is
                    > > > >> > > hooked up to a dimmer switch, I think it is the ultimate source
                    > > for a
                    > > > >> vacuum
                    > > > >> > > supply.(just my opinion) Mike LaRosa may have a point that the
                    > > gasifier
                    > > > >> > > dynamics aren't the same under pressure as under a vacuum. It's
                    > > just
                    > > > >> that
                    > > > >> > > they say they aren't but haven't told me how they differ. The main
                    > > > >> thing
                    > > > >> > > here is; if you push air or pull air, you need a MANOMETER in the
                    > > > >> system to
                    > > > >> > > know what you are doing. Enough on this subject, I was just
                    > > trying to
                    > > > >> save
                    > > > >> > > you some time developing a fan or ejector or something else to
                    > > create
                    > > > >> a flow
                    > > > >> > > in the gasifier.
                    > > > >> > > Now lets get serious about getting you some gas burning. YOU HAVE
                    > > TO
                    > > > >> MAKE
                    > > > >> > > SOME CHANGES!!!. #1.As Mike LaRosa said the diameter of the holes
                    > > in
                    > > > >> you
                    > > > >> > > nozzles are too big. I would suggest 1/4 in. dia.
                    > > > >> > > #2.As Mike suggested you nozzles are not high enough above the
                    > > > >> restrictor
                    > > > >> > > They should be raised about 2" from what I see in the pictures
                    > > > >> > > #3 This is a little complicated. You have two choices. One (and I
                    > > > >> think the
                    > > > >> > > best) is the "The Tar Dam" that I suggested. I did put some
                    > > pictures
                    > > > >> of a
                    > > > >> > > TAR DAM in the file.
                    > > > >> > > OR--You need to take a piece of wire, like coat hangar wire,
                    > > about 12"
                    > > > >> long.
                    > > > >> > > Bend it in the middle into a 60 degree angle. Place the point of
                    > > the
                    > > > >> angled
                    > > > >> > > wire down in the center of the restriction. Now follow up one leg
                    > > of
                    > > > >> the
                    > > > >> > > angle to the new height of the nozzles. The distance from that
                    > > > >> intersection
                    > > > >> > > to the center of the gasifier times 2 equals the required nozzle
                    > > > >> diameter.
                    > > > >> > > I realize this is asking for a lot of work but unfortunately,
                    > > these
                    > > > >> are just
                    > > > >> > > suggestions to get you closer. I could suggest a way to correct
                    > > all of
                    > > > >> these
                    > > > >> > > problems in one simple way. A member by the name of Joseph Monty
                    > > built
                    > > > >> a
                    > > > >> > > small gasifier and ran a small Ford car on it. He had a good
                    > > drawing
                    > > > >> in with
                    > > > >> > > his pictures on this or the Woodgas Builders Group. I tried to
                    > > contact
                    > > > >> him
                    > > > >> > > to see if I could repost his drawing but did not hear from
                    > > him.TomC
                    > > > >> > > --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WoodGas%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > ,
                    > > > >> "PAUL"
                    > > > >> > > <paulc@> wrote:
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > The following is an email I sent to Stephen, but thinking about
                    > > it
                    > > > >> maybe I
                    > > > >> > > should post to the group considering the experience.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > Well today was another run, a burn, or better yet a journey the
                    > > edge
                    > > > >> of
                    > > > >> > > hell.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > Todays test was a pressure run, instead of trying to vacuum the
                    > > > >> gases out
                    > > > >> > > of the burn tube,I fashioned a manifold made out of PVC with 3
                    > > home
                    > > > >> runs of
                    > > > >> > > tubing running off to the 3 nozzles.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > A shop vac is providing the pressurized air feeding the
                    > > manifold.
                    > > > >> > > > With the shop vac on low I had good flow and pressure coming
                    > > out of
                    > > > >> the
                    > > > >> > > nozzles, checked this before firing up.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > Some kindling in the hot well, and blocks of wood in the hopper.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > Smoke starts emitting from the vent pipe imediately after the
                    > > shop
                    > > > >> vas was
                    > > > >> > > turned on, and in 3 minutes or so the gases out of the flare pipe
                    > > were
                    > > > >> just
                    > > > >> > > on the verge of self-sustaining a flame.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > Then I notice a number of leaks around the cover of the burner.
                    > > Cant
                    > > > >> have
                    > > > >> > > this so I tried foil tape etc. but could not stop the leaks.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > So I decided in ultimate stupidity to fill the rest of the
                    > > hopper up
                    > > > >> with
                    > > > >> > > fiberglass insulation. pink stuff. I pressed it in real tight so
                    > > it
                    > > > >> won't
                    > > > >> > > leak badly.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > The unit was fine for a couple of minutes, but again the leaks
                    > > > >> started and
                    > > > >> > > were worse this time. I figured the fire must be burning up
                    > > instead of
                    > > > >> down.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > I tried the flame tube again and the flame stayed lit for about
                    > > a
                    > > > >> minute.
                    > > > >> > > Not being able to tolerate the leaks any longer I shut the unit
                    > > down.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > When ever I lift the cover off, I always lift so if a flame
                    > > shoots
                    > > > >> out it
                    > > > >> > > goes away from me. Good thing this time as a big puff of smoke and
                    > > > >> flame
                    > > > >> > > blew out.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > With the cover was off I found the flame was burning up toward
                    > > the
                    > > > >> cover
                    > > > >> > > and not so much down.
                    > > > >> > > > The flame must be following the leaks.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > Inside were 2 white hot glowing glass tunnels burned down to the
                    > > > >> nozzles.
                    > > > >> > > > One of the scariest things I have ever seen!!! It was getting a
                    > > free
                    > > > >> > > preview of hell!!!! Molten balls of glass hung to the sides of the
                    > > > >> tunnel.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > So I put some snow on the unit and let it go out and cool down.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > I need to learn the meaning of "air tight" I think the flame
                    > > > >> followed the
                    > > > >> > > air up toward the leak.
                    > > > >> > > > Is this true? I mean if there were no leaks in the hopper would
                    > > the
                    > > > >> flame
                    > > > >> > > have moved in this direction?
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > With a vacuum system, the leaks posed only the problem of
                    > > adding air
                    > > > >> to
                    > > > >> > > the fire which would be traveling down in the hot well. And making
                    > > > >> tar???
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > But with pressure it's a whole different ball game.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > However I am not discouraged. I learned a lot tonight. A little
                    > > at a
                    > > > >> time
                    > > > >> > > I am getting a feel for what is going on inside one of these
                    > > units.
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > > > PauLC
                    > > > >> > > > W1VLF
                    > > > >> > > >
                    > > > >> > >
                    > > > >> >
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> ------------------------------------
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
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