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Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

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  • Jimmy Maine
    Similar to what I ve been trying to do with the pig oil tank. I might give it one more go now that it s not frozen into the driveway anymore. I think there s
    Message 1 of 63 , Mar 8 7:43 PM
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      Similar to what I've been trying to do with the pig oil tank. I might give it one more go now that it's not frozen into the driveway anymore. I think there's some good options to avoid chunks. I refuse to sit around and spend my time chunking wood. 


      From: "sabbadess@..." <sabbadess@...>
      To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 10:22 PM
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

       
      BigDaddy,
       
      I use 10 cords of wood a year for heating.  A green cord of wood is 4000lbs'ish.  Chipping 1100lbs of wood takes a gallon of diesel.  If I use 40,000lbs of green wood per year then it would take 36 gallons of Diesel to chip it.  At $4.50/gallon that's $162/year in chipping cost for just fuel.
       
      Stephen
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Big Daddy <bigdaddy@...>
      To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, Mar 8, 2013 9:30 pm
      Subject: RE: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

       
      Kevin,
       
      It would be interesting to see how much energy one could save in a year if you didn’t have to chip or chunk… Kevin, maybe you or Stephen could figure that out with your engineering backgrounds.
       
      It seems to me that the stick wood gasifier would be well worth the R&D… Sure, you might go through a few prototypes, but if successful, you’re saving energy and wood – both valuable, and worth saving as much as possible. That isn’t even considering the cost of a suitable chipper, the eventual need to replace parts, and personal time spent running it.
       
      Hugh’s unit seems like it is producing a bunch of gas – albeit not exactly clean. However, a big nod goes to him for demonstrating the possibility of success.
       
      BigDaddy
       
      From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
      Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 5:30 AM
      To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet
       
       
      
      Dear Chuck and Stephen
       
      Here is a video of a Stick Wood Gasifier by Hugh Wilson... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdR6w3RsgIE
       
      He is doing a lot of things right. :-)
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Kevin
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 8:54 AM
      Subject: RE: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet
       
       
      Hi Stephen
            The stick gasser that Huy built worked pretty well but the problem in my thought was that it didn't have a grate or screen at the bottom and depended on the opening to be just right.  I think Mike L commented on that at the time Huy brought it out, you can see the stick gasser on youtube and Huy also made the plans public.  If a grate were put under the opening in the ash can I think it would work well as is.  I started to build one but wanted something bigger and went on to the gasser I am building now.  Also I think if the holes that brought air in had values on them it would be easy to shut down the gasser.
       

      To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
      From: sabbadess@...
      Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 07:10:23 -0500
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

       
      I appreciate your confidence, Kevin, but Don Quixote was confident too...and crazy.  : )

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Kevin <kchisholm@...>
      To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, Mar 8, 2013 7:07 am
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet
       
      
      Dear Stephen
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 11:09 PM
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet
       
       
      Kevin,
       
      I am going to disagree(in general) with:
       
      # No problem, at all, whatsoever!! The Truth and Fact of the matter is like the Big Elephant, and our opinions and speculations are like those of "The 6 Blind Men and the Elephant" http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html
       
      "The larger the wood, the larger the gasifier must be to produce tar free gas."
       
      Every piece of wood gets reduced to small charcoal so as long as the gasifier retains enough heat to keep charcoal being produced and dropping down at a sufficient rate it's all good.  In fact Jim Mason found blocks much easier to run cleanly that chips.  With chips the combustion zone is so small that tar can go around the oxygen and down to the restriction without being burned.  Blocks have a lot of space between them to burn the tars without carbon.
       
      # Jim was not the only one to favour blocks for larger capacity gasifiers. As I understand it, one of the reasons for success of gasifiers in Germany during the Second World War was their use of blocks rather than chips. Vesa Mekkoyen(?), Wayne Keith, and Mike LaRosa, all known operators of successful gasifiers, all use blocks or chunks.
       
      # You might be right...  I might be right.... who is right doesn't matter. What matters is what is right. You will be doing "The Science of Gasification" a great service if you resolve the issue, and show that stick wood either can, or cannot be used practically in gasifiers of a desired size range.
       
      # You have already made a major contribution to Wood Gasification with your Victoria Design, and I am confident that if stick wood can be used successfully in engines of the larger automotive size range, you will find a way to do it.
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Kevin
       
      Stephen
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Kevin <kchisholm@...>
      To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 9:47 pm
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet
       
      
      Dear Stephen
       
      With your brilliantly clever Victoria Gasifier, I am surprised that you would be against chips
       
      Look at the advantages that you get with small chips:
      1: In a large number of cases, they are F R E E.
      2: Usually they are a waste disposal problem, and Victoria provides a positive and constructive use for them.
      3: Your Victoria Design can use them without even requiring screening.
      4 As far as I know,all gasifiers that are "right sized" for smaller engines use small sized fuel. Pellets, the other readily available small fuel, cost in the order of $400 per ton.
      5: Gasifiers that are "right sized" for larger engines require larger sized fuel, eg, chunks, like Wayne Keith and the Larosifier use.
       
      I do agree that small chips, and chunks, do have a significantly lower volume than stick wood. stick wood, on the other hand, has the following disadvantages:
      1  It is more difficult to handle
      2: The cost of labour for handling and splitting is probably greater than the savings on chipping energy.
       
      I would suggest "The larger the wood, the larger the gasifier must be to produce tar free gas." If this is true, then the stick wood will be confined to "large" gasifiers.
       
      It is hard to see how stickwood can beat the simplicity and economy of a Victoria running on unscreened chips, and even harder to imagine a stickwood gasifier being cheaper to operate than a Victoria running on free trashwood chips
       
      Mike LaRosa and Wayne Keith generally run with wood chunks in the order of 1-1/2' to 2" long. It would be interesting to have them comment on how they would expect their gasifiers to operate if they simply changed the length to 3" to 4" long. Then they would effectively be operating "short stickwood gasifiers."
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Kevin.
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:54 PM
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet
       
       
      Hi Kevin,
       
      My big issues with chips are low density, low air flow, and preparation energy.  I think I calculated that chips take 3X the volume of stick wood.  Hopefully someday I will achieve a universal fuel gasifier so this won't be an issue.(I know...big eye roll from the senior members)
       
      Stephen
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Kevin <kchisholm@...>
      To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 7:11 pm
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet
       
      
      Dear Stephen
       
      Don't be too hard on wood chips!! :-) The work you did, where you chipped a batch of wood, and measured the fuel to do it showed that chipping energy is a very small percentage of the energy contained in the fuel.
       
      Chipping energy requirements are proportional to the new surface area created. Even less "chipping energy" is required when the wood is "chipped" to "chunk size."
       
      Chips and chunks have a very big advantage over stickwood... they can be stored easily in hoppers and will flow relatively easily, compared to stick wood.
       
      The relatively fine sized chips do have a drying problem. They don't. :-) However, if spread "on the barn floor", they dry relatively quickly. Then they require covered storage until use. Chunks will take longer to dry than chips, because of their larger size.
       
      I would suggest that for ease of handling and "bin flow properties", chips or chunks are better than stick wood.
       
      perhaps I am missing something? What do you feel are the major advantages of stick wood, other than their ability to air dry in a stack?
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Kevin
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:47 AM
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet
       
       
      Hi Wayne,
       
      I am with you.  I am vigorously anti-pellet.  Ever since I went to a pellet mill and saw the HUGE(!!) propane tanks that run the driers and monster electrical consumption to run the grinders and presses, it's REALLY been bothersome.  I think I calculated that it takes more energy to make a pellet than is in it.
       
      I still think a stick wood gasifier is really where it's at.  Then the fuel can be stacked to air dry.  I'm only luke warm to the chips I am running.  The up side is that they are all debris that wouldn't stack anyway.
       
      Stephen
      -----Original Message-----
      From: WJ Seidl <wjsmaine@...>
      To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 6:29 am
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet
       
      Up here in the "land of wood" (a moniker referred to with no small amount of smirking by the local (male) woods crews) I'm amazed at the number of homes converting from wood to pellets for heat.  After all, with a wood stove or furnace, you can "burn the furniture" if it came down to it, but with pellets you're dependent on $omeone else providing your fuel...but I digress.

      Couldn't the RV gasifier be designed to run on pellets, making transport and storage easier for interstate travellers?  Just a thought.

      Best,
      Wayne Seidl
      Maine

      On 3/7/2013 5:16 AM, sabbadess@... wrote:
      Hi Jim,
       
      It's a noble ambition but you would be hauling LOTS of firewood across state lines.  Personally I wouldn't do it just because of the pest transfer issue.  In my opinion woodgas is best used locally or for stationary applications.  Sorry to be a downer.
       
      Stephen
      -----Original Message-----
      From: workinman_43 <workinman_43@...>
      To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2013 11:18 pm
      Subject: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet
       
      Hello Wood Gassers, I am Jim Hamby. I am an IT Specialist at a Local Hospital and have been for the last 11 years, Before that I was an ASE certified vehicle mechanic for 25 years, and before that I was an Aircraft Structural Mechanic for the United States Navy. I live in Waldo Florida, a AAA top 10 speed trap on Highway 301.
      snip
       



    • Big Daddy
      Robert, My point was that if you didn’t have to use any fuel/energy for chipping, you’ll have that much more wood for use on other important things…
      Message 63 of 63 , Mar 9 11:33 AM
      • 0 Attachment

        Robert,

         

        My point was that if you didn’t have to use any fuel/energy for chipping, you’ll have that much more wood for use on other important things… Let’s say for instance 1/8th of you feed stock goes to fuel the chippers to make more feed stock (whatever the ratio is). If a stick wood gasifier eliminates the need for chipping, that wood could be used for making electricity, for the tractor, for the truck, etc.

         

        If things get tough in the future – with less oil, and higher costs to pull it out of the ground – all of a sudden, anything that consumes energy will have to be given some serious thought. This is especially critical for me since I live where wood doesn’t grow in abundance (So Cal – high desert).

         

        Just thinking of the future… And trying to solve problems now, when it’s easier.

         

        BigDaddy

         

        From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Broughton
        Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 11:38 PM
        To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

         

        Why don't you just use wood gas to chip it?

         

         


        From: "sabbadess@..." <sabbadess@...>
        To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 8:22 PM
        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

         

        BigDaddy,

         

        I use 10 cords of wood a year for heating.  A green cord of wood is 4000lbs'ish.  Chipping 1100lbs of wood takes a gallon of diesel.  If I use 40,000lbs of green wood per year then it would take 36 gallons of Diesel to chip it.  At $4.50/gallon that's $162/year in chipping cost for just fuel.

         

        Stephen

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Big Daddy <bigdaddy@...>
        To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, Mar 8, 2013 9:30 pm
        Subject: RE: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

        Kevin,

         

        It would be interesting to see how much energy one could save in a year if you didn’t have to chip or chunk… Kevin, maybe you or Stephen could figure that out with your engineering backgrounds.

         

        It seems to me that the stick wood gasifier would be well worth the R&D… Sure, you might go through a few prototypes, but if successful, you’re saving energy and wood – both valuable, and worth saving as much as possible. That isn’t even considering the cost of a suitable chipper, the eventual need to replace parts, and personal time spent running it.

         

        Hugh’s unit seems like it is producing a bunch of gas – albeit not exactly clean. However, a big nod goes to him for demonstrating the possibility of success.

         

        BigDaddy

         

        From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
        Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 5:30 AM
        To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

         

        

        Dear Chuck and Stephen

         

        Here is a video of a Stick Wood Gasifier by Hugh Wilson... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdR6w3RsgIE

         

        He is doing a lot of things right. :-)

         

        Best wishes,

         

        Kevin

         

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 8:54 AM

        Subject: RE: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

         

        Hi Stephen
              The stick gasser that Huy built worked pretty well but the problem in my thought was that it didn't have a grate or screen at the bottom and depended on the opening to be just right.  I think Mike L commented on that at the time Huy brought it out, you can see the stick gasser on youtube and Huy also made the plans public.  If a grate were put under the opening in the ash can I think it would work well as is.  I started to build one but wanted something bigger and went on to the gasser I am building now.  Also I think if the holes that brought air in had values on them it would be easy to shut down the gasser.
         


        To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
        From: sabbadess@...
        Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 07:10:23 -0500
        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

        I appreciate your confidence, Kevin, but Don Quixote was confident too...and crazy.  : )

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Kevin <kchisholm@...>
        To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, Mar 8, 2013 7:07 am
        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

        

        Dear Stephen

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 11:09 PM

        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

         

        Kevin,

         

        I am going to disagree(in general) with:

         

        # No problem, at all, whatsoever!! The Truth and Fact of the matter is like the Big Elephant, and our opinions and speculations are like those of "The 6 Blind Men and the Elephant" http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html

         

        "The larger the wood, the larger the gasifier must be to produce tar free gas."

         

        Every piece of wood gets reduced to small charcoal so as long as the gasifier retains enough heat to keep charcoal being produced and dropping down at a sufficient rate it's all good.  In fact Jim Mason found blocks much easier to run cleanly that chips.  With chips the combustion zone is so small that tar can go around the oxygen and down to the restriction without being burned.  Blocks have a lot of space between them to burn the tars without carbon.

         

        # Jim was not the only one to favour blocks for larger capacity gasifiers. As I understand it, one of the reasons for success of gasifiers in Germany during the Second World War was their use of blocks rather than chips. Vesa Mekkoyen(?), Wayne Keith, and Mike LaRosa, all known operators of successful gasifiers, all use blocks or chunks.

         

        # You might be right...  I might be right.... who is right doesn't matter. What matters is what is right. You will be doing "The Science of Gasification" a great service if you resolve the issue, and show that stick wood either can, or cannot be used practically in gasifiers of a desired size range.

         

        # You have already made a major contribution to Wood Gasification with your Victoria Design, and I am confident that if stick wood can be used successfully in engines of the larger automotive size range, you will find a way to do it.

         

        Best wishes,

         

        Kevin

         

        Stephen

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Kevin <kchisholm@...>
        To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 9:47 pm
        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

        

        Dear Stephen

         

        With your brilliantly clever Victoria Gasifier, I am surprised that you would be against chips

         

        Look at the advantages that you get with small chips:

        1: In a large number of cases, they are F R E E.

        2: Usually they are a waste disposal problem, and Victoria provides a positive and constructive use for them.

        3: Your Victoria Design can use them without even requiring screening.

        4 As far as I know,all gasifiers that are "right sized" for smaller engines use small sized fuel. Pellets, the other readily available small fuel, cost in the order of $400 per ton.

        5: Gasifiers that are "right sized" for larger engines require larger sized fuel, eg, chunks, like Wayne Keith and the Larosifier use.

         

        I do agree that small chips, and chunks, do have a significantly lower volume than stick wood. stick wood, on the other hand, has the following disadvantages:

        1  It is more difficult to handle

        2: The cost of labour for handling and splitting is probably greater than the savings on chipping energy.

         

        I would suggest "The larger the wood, the larger the gasifier must be to produce tar free gas." If this is true, then the stick wood will be confined to "large" gasifiers.

         

        It is hard to see how stickwood can beat the simplicity and economy of a Victoria running on unscreened chips, and even harder to imagine a stickwood gasifier being cheaper to operate than a Victoria running on free trashwood chips

         

        Mike LaRosa and Wayne Keith generally run with wood chunks in the order of 1-1/2' to 2" long. It would be interesting to have them comment on how they would expect their gasifiers to operate if they simply changed the length to 3" to 4" long. Then they would effectively be operating "short stickwood gasifiers."

         

        Best wishes,

         

        Kevin.

         

         

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:54 PM

        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

         

        Hi Kevin,

         

        My big issues with chips are low density, low air flow, and preparation energy.  I think I calculated that chips take 3X the volume of stick wood.  Hopefully someday I will achieve a universal fuel gasifier so this won't be an issue.(I know...big eye roll from the senior members)

         

        Stephen

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Kevin <kchisholm@...>
        To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 7:11 pm
        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

        

        Dear Stephen

         

        Don't be too hard on wood chips!! :-) The work you did, where you chipped a batch of wood, and measured the fuel to do it showed that chipping energy is a very small percentage of the energy contained in the fuel.

         

        Chipping energy requirements are proportional to the new surface area created. Even less "chipping energy" is required when the wood is "chipped" to "chunk size."

         

        Chips and chunks have a very big advantage over stickwood... they can be stored easily in hoppers and will flow relatively easily, compared to stick wood.

         

        The relatively fine sized chips do have a drying problem. They don't. :-) However, if spread "on the barn floor", they dry relatively quickly. Then they require covered storage until use. Chunks will take longer to dry than chips, because of their larger size.

         

        I would suggest that for ease of handling and "bin flow properties", chips or chunks are better than stick wood.

         

        perhaps I am missing something? What do you feel are the major advantages of stick wood, other than their ability to air dry in a stack?

         

        Best wishes,

         

        Kevin

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:47 AM

        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

         

        Hi Wayne,

         

        I am with you.  I am vigorously anti-pellet.  Ever since I went to a pellet mill and saw the HUGE(!!) propane tanks that run the driers and monster electrical consumption to run the grinders and presses, it's REALLY been bothersome.  I think I calculated that it takes more energy to make a pellet than is in it.

         

        I still think a stick wood gasifier is really where it's at.  Then the fuel can be stacked to air dry.  I'm only luke warm to the chips I am running.  The up side is that they are all debris that wouldn't stack anyway.

         

        Stephen

        -----Original Message-----
        From: WJ Seidl <wjsmaine@...>
        To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 6:29 am
        Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

        Up here in the "land of wood" (a moniker referred to with no small amount of smirking by the local (male) woods crews) I'm amazed at the number of homes converting from wood to pellets for heat.  After all, with a wood stove or furnace, you can "burn the furniture" if it came down to it, but with pellets you're dependent on $omeone else providing your fuel...but I digress.

        Couldn't the RV gasifier be designed to run on pellets, making transport and storage easier for interstate travellers?  Just a thought.

        Best,
        Wayne Seidl
        Maine

        On 3/7/2013 5:16 AM, sabbadess@... wrote:

        Hi Jim,

         

        It's a noble ambition but you would be hauling LOTS of firewood across state lines.  Personally I wouldn't do it just because of the pest transfer issue.  In my opinion woodgas is best used locally or for stationary applications.  Sorry to be a downer.

         

        Stephen

        -----Original Message-----
        From: workinman_43 <workinman_43@...>
        To: WoodGas <WoodGas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2013 11:18 pm
        Subject: [WoodGas] Lurker comes out of the Closet

         

        Hello Wood Gassers, I am Jim Hamby. I am an IT Specialist at a Local Hospital and have been for the last 11 years, Before that I was an ASE certified vehicle mechanic for 25 years, and before that I was an Aircraft Structural Mechanic for the United States Navy. I live in Waldo Florida, a AAA top 10 speed trap on Highway 301.

        snip

         

         

         

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