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Re: [WoodGas] Hold on now Art

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  • Arthur C Noll
    Have no hard feelings, Mike, ready to let it go. One thing about the yurt, they are considerably more than a tent, in my mind. Don t want to start arguing
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
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      Have no hard feelings, Mike, ready to let it go.

      One thing about the yurt, they are considerably more than a tent, in my
      mind. Don't want to start arguing definitions here, some might well call
      them a tent. They are a fabric covered structure. But with a tent, the
      fabric is a lot of the structure, with the yurt, the fabric is not
      structural. You have a strong wooden frame that gives the structure. It
      can stand up to conditions that would rip a tent to shreds, or collapse it
      with snow. I'd think twice about living in a tent in Northern New England,
      but my yurt was fine. I really wish I knew about woodgas stoves and elbow
      stoves back when I was living in my first one. They would have solved some
      problems.

      As far as comfort, they can be comfortable, too. I had insulation, a
      stove, no problem at all to heat it on the coldest days of minus 20 F.
      Comfort in a small area with a yurt is very similar to working out how to
      make a small house comfortable, something Laren is also involved with. The
      main difference is that his small houses generally aren't meant to be
      packed up and moved, while that is usually, but not always, a goal with a
      yurt. That does make it a little more of a challenge, but what is life
      without some challenges.
      I've read that there is a city in Mongolia where the suburbs are made up
      of yurts, the people prefer them to houses. And it can be very cold and
      windy there in the winter.

      I have to admit, though, I have not had much luck in convincing anyone
      of the female sex to live with me in a yurt. It is a big reason I'm not
      living in the present one, that and the difficulty of a place to set it up
      on to live in. Politics again, codes, etc. You can get away from such
      things by getting far enough out, but far enough out is also putting you
      more on your own, my experience taught me you need at least a small
      community of people with you to make it, and I haven't found how to get
      anything like that going, either. Lots of false starts.

      I am not looking to live with something that is physically
      uncomfortable. The first problem in my mind is physical comfort, I do
      want physical comfort. The second, and more difficult problem, I feel, is
      not physical comfort, but psychological comfort. Something can be fine as
      far as physical comfort, but if it is psychologically uncomfortable, too
      different from what other people are doing, too different from tradition,
      many people will reject it. And that is really quite frustrating for
      someone trying to design a way to live comfortably without fossil
      fuels. It is almost impossible to get around the barrier of psychological
      discomfort. I'm not completely immune to this problem, either, but in my
      mad passion (as some might call it) to live sustainably, I am far more
      immune than most. :-)

      Yes, I agree that the woodgas generator doesn't have moving parts, but
      for clean gas it requires draft and that seems to require some moving
      parts. I have often considered how to do it with a chimney draft, and
      haven't seen an easy way. The simplest way seems to be pulling up on a gas
      holder, but due to the low energy density, this requires a very large
      holder to do very much. A really big gas bag looks like an industrial
      product, fossil fuel artifact, to me, I could make a gas holder from
      wooden box lined with tar, I suppose, but is it worth the effort? Seems
      easier to just use a simple woodgas stove for cooking and store the energy
      as wood, not gas. You might use a relatively small amount of clean gas for
      a gas light. But as we saw, storing gas for running a refrigerator does
      not look practical. Too much gas storage needed.
      And with the generator itself, assuming you do figure out effective
      draft without a lot of complex moving parts (read "engine") parts of the
      generator are subjected to intense heat and that wears things out. You can
      also get acids in condensate, that will corrode most metals rather
      fast. So just because something doesn't have moving parts doesn't mean it
      has a long life. If you can line the hot places with something easily
      replaceable, that sounds better, but it seems that slag can "glue" to some
      kinds of lining and when you go to clean it off so that the wood will flow,
      your lining can be broken away. I've read of one person who got rid of a
      ceramic lining because of this problem, and went with stainless
      steel. Which might be a good solution, I don't know. The acids in
      condensate might also be solved with stainless steel parts. Starts to look
      expensive in my mind, and I still haven't solved the draft problem in a way
      simple enough to satisfy me. Of the various engines, the slow speed
      diesel looks the best to me, but new ones are well out of my price range,
      and I've never seen a used one for sale, or free as a lot of small used
      gasoline engines are.

      Well, I haven't given up on it completely. Sometimes I've stewed over
      things for years and tried all sorts of combinations before I found
      something that I was happy with.

      Arthur



      At 07:46 AM 10/31/05 -0800, you wrote:
      >Art,
      >I guess I was refering to the welfare statement I
      >seen on here. I was'nt offended by any of it but I
      >can't seem to remember eating steak when my mother was
      >using the system to put herself through school.In
      >Michigan they give you a choice of school or work and
      >from the looks of people I think they are eating
      >better. I do remember being hungry a few times and not
      >ever having a telephone or a car when I was a kid.
      >Never used it myself although I did apply for a Grant
      >to go to school. The damage it does is to families as
      >you pretty much have to be a single mother to get
      >ANYTHING. Dad's are run off like stay animals and
      >don't get the help to go to school. Yes Daryl the
      >system is VERY messed up with no end in sight. I
      >mostly did'nt think it or any of the other topics
      >(Government and gas companies profits)were good enough
      >to waste time on here, but then now I'm doing it. I
      >also have been lurking on here for months so Art were
      >just one of the people talking about piston engine
      >efficiencies and I'm so sorry you have taken this
      >personally. Yes, the refridgeration off the exhaust
      >idea has been around before I was born so I don't
      >think any of us can take any credit for that.I don't
      >think it's the greatest idea but it can be done. I had
      >a kid that works for me ask why I did'nt have certain
      >pipes that come in from the outdoor boiler covered. He
      >said ,"isn't that ineffecient?" I had to laugh when I
      >come back with,"yes,but where is all the heat leaking
      >to?" Do you see where I'm going with this? I have
      >put alot of thought into this Art. The cook stove and
      >the lights are the only thing I'm not using wood for
      >in my house. I'd like to use wood chips as it seems
      >they are everywhere and I'd like the process to be at
      >least 2 times as effecient as I have it now. I like
      >living with all this comfort so I to am not in the
      >just do it mode. When I climbed out of that semi
      >last week I hooked up the dump trailor I built to my
      >pickup truck and took the whole mess on 5 trips 45min
      >south of here and collected wood that I got for $15 a
      >cord cut and split. Seems nice not having to cut that
      >much wood but once again I find I'm busier than a cat
      >covering crap just hauling and stacking it. I also
      >think we need a balance of energy sourches Art and
      >that's why I brought those solar panels home. I live
      >in town so I think wind is out of the question. I
      >would like to run my shop on wood-gas so I could
      >produce wind and solar components. I figured on
      >someday getting out of town so I could use these
      >things(wind and solar) to make more wind and solar
      >goodies. I hope everyone does'nt think I would like to
      >burn the forest down to support my lifestyle. I think
      >Yurts are neet Art but I and probably a few others on
      >this forum prefer to live with the comforts we
      >already have. My wife would agree that she does'nt
      >care to live in a tent. Good to know that you are out
      >there to correct me on all these things Art and maybe
      >someday I'll need your input. Have you ever looked
      >into the slow running diesel engines I speak of??? I
      >don't see alot of moving parts in a gasifier, do you?
      >I didn't see anyplace on here that said I had to stick
      >to the MIDGE or small gasifier stove topics. Art,
      >unless you are going to help me with input on the
      >topic ,stop poking at me. Jerry, I love savonious
      >windmills. I think they would do good up here in Mi.
      >I've had a few people blast me about efficiencies in
      >the savonious but who the heck cares as the wind is
      >free. I've built a few Stirling engines and have come
      >to the conclusion that they are not worth the trouble
      >with so many other options out there. Enough ranting
      >about everything but wood-gas. Hey Daryl, how about
      >that cup of coffee?? My # is 989-691-5447
      >Mike kb8ooe
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • LarenCorie
      ... Hi Arthur; I suspect that it would be possible for someone to gather a group, via YahooGroups, to get together a small number of yurters on BLM land for a
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
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        : "Arthur C Noll" <arthurnoll@...>

        > my experience taught me you need at least a small community
        > of people with you to make it, and I haven't found how to get
        > anything like that going, either. Lots of false starts.

        Hi Arthur;

        I suspect that it would be possible for someone to gather
        a group, via YahooGroups, to get together a small number
        of yurters on BLM land for a trial period, of nomadic life.
        Might even make a nice month vacation for a starter.Call
        the group "YurtLiving" and just let it wander where it will ;O)

        > Of the various engines, the slow speed diesel looks the best to
        > me, but new ones are well out of my price range, and I've never
        > seen a used one for sale, or free as a lot of small used gasoline
        > engines are.

        Any knowledgeable opinions about these:

        http://tinyurl.com/dylb3
        http://tinyurl.com/by6he

        -Laren Corie-
        Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975

        -LittleHouses- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses

        -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter- Free at www.rebelwolf.com

        -Refrigerator Alternatives-
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
      • Arthur C Noll
        Good idea, Laren, I may try that. I have toyed with the idea in the past but it seemed like there wasn t any interest in the lists I was on. But spreading a
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 2, 2005
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          Good idea, Laren, I may try that. I have toyed with the idea in the past
          but it seemed like there wasn't any interest in the lists I was on. But
          spreading a wider net is a good idea. And I've also had some health
          problems that would have kept me pretty much on the sidelines, I didn't
          have energy to deal with everything. I've been feeling better, if that
          continues I could put a little more energy into the whole idea now.

          Of the engines, I have no experience with anything like them, but
          interesting to see them. All I had previously found was a 5.5 hp diesel
          sold by Northern Tools, for about 1700 dollars. Of course these offered on
          ebay have some time before the bidding is done. It seems that Mike Anthony
          has one very similar to the smallest one on this ebay offering. As he
          says, the higher rpm is something of a concern. Both for longevity, and
          from what I've read, could be a problem with woodgas, which seems to like a
          slower engine because of the slower burning characteristics. Possibly you
          could run these small engines slower, would lose some power, but probably
          less power loss than with a spark ignition engine. And running completely
          on the diesel or vegetable oil, would provide some standby reserve of power.

          I like the idea of a diesel because it does away with the spark ignition
          system, always a potential source of trouble. A mechanical injector can
          need a lot of precision in the making but it is mechanical in the end, a
          small machine shop has a much better chance of making or fixing all the
          parts of a mechanical injector than of making the parts for spark
          ignition. And it seems to me that you might be able to run the engine
          using vegetable oil to fire off the woodgas, and be running 100% on
          renewables.

          I've also been intrigued with the thought of having an engine fired with
          a fire tube or hot bulb. This is a really old technology, meant for
          engines running around 250 rpm or so. Some of those old slow speed engines
          ran for decades, as I understand, though the fire tube didn't last that
          long. Very simple idea, you have a closed tube at the end of the cylinder
          head, and play a flame on it. Gas and air are compressed by the engine and
          as the piston gets to the top, the mixture is compressed up into the fire
          tube far enough to get to the hot spot, and it fires. By changing the
          height of the hot spot on the tube, you could do a primitive timing. This
          fire tube would tend to burn out in a year or so, being red hot and also
          subject to the pressures of an engine is hard duty, but it is a pretty
          simple piece. You do away with the precision of a diesel
          injector. Woodgas would do well at such slow speeds, but you need a big
          displacement to get much power. And you would probably not want a high
          compression ratio with the fire tube, but woodgas works best at a high
          compression ratio. As so often, conflicting parameters...Those old engines
          were stationary, very low power to weight ratio.
          The hot bulb is similar to the fire tube, but using a much thicker,
          shorter chamber. Would last probably as long as the engine, but no way to
          adjust the timing.

          The idea with both of these is similar to tiny engines still used in
          model airplanes, they are frequently glow plug engines. They can run at
          pretty high speeds, too, so it seems you might easily get faster than the
          250 rpm range if you wanted, with this sort of ignition.

          Just had the thought that maybe you could have your glowing element in a
          "fire tube", and by raising or lowering it in the fire tube, you could vary
          the timing. And the fire tube, no longer being heated red hot with an
          external flame, could be thicker, last much longer, and you would not have
          the expense of the gas used to heat it, either. You would probably need to
          insulate the fire tube so that the element would stay hot enough.

          Well, just musing at the keyboard here. Might be some things to try.

          Arthur

          At 02:21 PM 11/1/05 -0500, you wrote:
          >: "Arthur C Noll" <arthurnoll@...>
          >
          > > my experience taught me you need at least a small community
          > > of people with you to make it, and I haven't found how to get
          > > anything like that going, either. Lots of false starts.
          >
          >Hi Arthur;
          >
          >I suspect that it would be possible for someone to gather
          >a group, via YahooGroups, to get together a small number
          >of yurters on BLM land for a trial period, of nomadic life.
          >Might even make a nice month vacation for a starter.Call
          >the group "YurtLiving" and just let it wander where it will ;O)
          >
          > > Of the various engines, the slow speed diesel looks the best to
          > > me, but new ones are well out of my price range, and I've never
          > > seen a used one for sale, or free as a lot of small used gasoline
          > > engines are.
          >
          >Any knowledgeable opinions about these:
          >
          ><http://tinyurl.com/dylb3>http://tinyurl.com/dylb3
          >http://tinyurl.com/by6he
          >
          >-Laren Corie-
          >Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
          >
          >-LittleHouses-
          ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses
          >
          >-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter- Free at www.rebelwolf.com
          >
          >-Refrigerator Alternatives-
          ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
          >
          >
          >
          >----------
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        • Tim Jones
          Just a note about a gas engine as compared to a deisel engine. A deisel uses a fuel injection and has no ignition, a gas engine uses vales for fuel ingestion
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 3, 2005
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            Just a note about a gas engine as compared to a deisel engine. A deisel uses a fuel injection and has no ignition, a gas engine uses vales for fuel ingestion and spark ignition. A deisel does not HAVE to use fuel injection, it can be accomplished with valves. A simple experiment to try is take any old (or new) Briggs and stratton lawn mower with very little gas in the fuel tank. Start and run it till it warms up and let it run till it starts to faulter due to running out of gas, at this point dump some diesel fuel into the gas tank. The engine will continue to run on deisel. Shutting of the ignition (spark) has no effect at this point. Speed can still be regulated by the throttle control. At this point you will have to let it run out of deisel, or place the equiptment under a VERY heavy overload in order to stop it. If the unit is equipped with a compliance blade brake, it will not shut off if the bail is released, it will continue to run at a reduced speed due to the brake being
            applied, but will cause excessive wear to the brake lining. I would advise letting it run out of deisel or else you will have to dissassemble and clean the remaining deisel from the carb and fuel tank before normal gas operation can be restored.

            Arthur C Noll <arthurnoll@...> wrote:
            Good idea, Laren, I may try that. I have toyed with the idea in the past
            but it seemed like there wasn't any interest in the lists I was on. But
            spreading a wider net is a good idea. And I've also had some health
            problems that would have kept me pretty much on the sidelines, I didn't
            have energy to deal with everything. I've been feeling better, if that
            continues I could put a little more energy into the whole idea now.

            Of the engines, I have no experience with anything like them, but
            interesting to see them. All I had previously found was a 5.5 hp diesel
            sold by Northern Tools, for about 1700 dollars. Of course these offered on
            ebay have some time before the bidding is done. It seems that Mike Anthony
            has one very similar to the smallest one on this ebay offering. As he
            says, the higher rpm is something of a concern. Both for longevity, and
            from what I've read, could be a problem with woodgas, which seems to like a
            slower engine because of the slower burning characteristics. Possibly you
            could run these small engines slower, would lose some power, but probably
            less power loss than with a spark ignition engine. And running completely
            on the diesel or vegetable oil, would provide some standby reserve of power.

            I like the idea of a diesel because it does away with the spark ignition
            system, always a potential source of trouble. A mechanical injector can
            need a lot of precision in the making but it is mechanical in the end, a
            small machine shop has a much better chance of making or fixing all the
            parts of a mechanical injector than of making the parts for spark
            ignition. And it seems to me that you might be able to run the engine
            using vegetable oil to fire off the woodgas, and be running 100% on
            renewables.

            I've also been intrigued with the thought of having an engine fired with
            a fire tube or hot bulb. This is a really old technology, meant for
            engines running around 250 rpm or so. Some of those old slow speed engines
            ran for decades, as I understand, though the fire tube didn't last that
            long. Very simple idea, you have a closed tube at the end of the cylinder
            head, and play a flame on it. Gas and air are compressed by the engine and
            as the piston gets to the top, the mixture is compressed up into the fire
            tube far enough to get to the hot spot, and it fires. By changing the
            height of the hot spot on the tube, you could do a primitive timing. This
            fire tube would tend to burn out in a year or so, being red hot and also
            subject to the pressures of an engine is hard duty, but it is a pretty
            simple piece. You do away with the precision of a diesel
            injector. Woodgas would do well at such slow speeds, but you need a big
            displacement to get much power. And you would probably not want a high
            compression ratio with the fire tube, but woodgas works best at a high
            compression ratio. As so often, conflicting parameters...Those old engines
            were stationary, very low power to weight ratio.
            The hot bulb is similar to the fire tube, but using a much thicker,
            shorter chamber. Would last probably as long as the engine, but no way to
            adjust the timing.

            The idea with both of these is similar to tiny engines still used in
            model airplanes, they are frequently glow plug engines. They can run at
            pretty high speeds, too, so it seems you might easily get faster than the
            250 rpm range if you wanted, with this sort of ignition.

            Just had the thought that maybe you could have your glowing element in a
            "fire tube", and by raising or lowering it in the fire tube, you could vary
            the timing. And the fire tube, no longer being heated red hot with an
            external flame, could be thicker, last much longer, and you would not have
            the expense of the gas used to heat it, either. You would probably need to
            insulate the fire tube so that the element would stay hot enough.

            Well, just musing at the keyboard here. Might be some things to try.

            Arthur

            At 02:21 PM 11/1/05 -0500, you wrote:
            >: "Arthur C Noll" <arthurnoll@...>
            >
            > > my experience taught me you need at least a small community
            > > of people with you to make it, and I haven't found how to get
            > > anything like that going, either. Lots of false starts.
            >
            >Hi Arthur;
            >
            >I suspect that it would be possible for someone to gather
            >a group, via YahooGroups, to get together a small number
            >of yurters on BLM land for a trial period, of nomadic life.
            >Might even make a nice month vacation for a starter.Call
            >the group "YurtLiving" and just let it wander where it will ;O)
            >
            > > Of the various engines, the slow speed diesel looks the best to
            > > me, but new ones are well out of my price range, and I've never
            > > seen a used one for sale, or free as a lot of small used gasoline
            > > engines are.
            >
            >Any knowledgeable opinions about these:
            >
            ><http://tinyurl.com/dylb3>http://tinyurl.com/dylb3
            >http://tinyurl.com/by6he
            >
            >-Laren Corie-
            >Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
            >
            >-LittleHouses-
            ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses
            >
            >-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter- Free at www.rebelwolf.com
            >
            >-Refrigerator Alternatives-
            ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
            >
            >
            >
            >----------
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            > on the web.
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          • Garret Crisler
            Every diesel engine I have ever seen has a very sophisticated fuel injection system. I have not seen it done using valves! At least not in modern diesel
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 3, 2005
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              Every diesel engine I have ever seen has a very sophisticated fuel injection system. I have not seen it done using valves! At least not in modern diesel engines. I will try the lawn mower experiment you have suggested, I don't believe the engine will run on diesel even when warm. I truely believe it won't run with the ignition off. Briggs engines only have a compression ration of around 6 or 7:1. This isn't enough to ignite any fuel. If it was the gasoline would preignite and would cause detonation and destroy the engine in short order.

              Garret Crisler


              Tim Jones <gorp27@...> wrote:
              Just a note about a gas engine as compared to a diesel engine. A diesel uses a fuel injection and has no ignition, a gas engine uses vales for fuel ingestion and spark ignition. A diesel does not HAVE to use fuel injection, it can be accomplished with valves. A simple experiment to try is take any old (or new) Briggs and stratton lawn mower with very little gas in the fuel tank. Start and run it till it warms up and let it run till it starts to faulter due to running out of gas, at this point dump some diesel fuel into the gas tank. The engine will continue to run on deisel. Shutting of the ignition (spark) has no effect at this point. Speed can still be regulated by the throttle control. At this point you will have to let it run out of deisel, or place the equiptment under a VERY heavy overload in order to stop it. If the unit is equipped with a compliance blade brake, it will not shut off if the bail is released, it will continue to run at a reduced speed due to the brake being
              applied, but will cause excessive wear to the brake lining. I would advise letting it run out of deisel or else you will have to dissassemble and clean the remaining deisel from the carb and fuel tank before normal gas operation can be restored.

              Arthur C Noll <arthurnoll@...> wrote:
              Good idea, Laren, I may try that. I have toyed with the idea in the past
              but it seemed like there wasn't any interest in the lists I was on. But
              spreading a wider net is a good idea. And I've also had some health
              problems that would have kept me pretty much on the sidelines, I didn't
              have energy to deal with everything. I've been feeling better, if that
              continues I could put a little more energy into the whole idea now.

              Of the engines, I have no experience with anything like them, but
              interesting to see them. All I had previously found was a 5.5 hp diesel
              sold by Northern Tools, for about 1700 dollars. Of course these offered on
              ebay have some time before the bidding is done. It seems that Mike Anthony
              has one very similar to the smallest one on this ebay offering. As he
              says, the higher rpm is something of a concern. Both for longevity, and
              from what I've read, could be a problem with woodgas, which seems to like a
              slower engine because of the slower burning characteristics. Possibly you
              could run these small engines slower, would lose some power, but probably
              less power loss than with a spark ignition engine. And running completely
              on the diesel or vegetable oil, would provide some standby reserve of power.

              I like the idea of a diesel because it does away with the spark ignition
              system, always a potential source of trouble. A mechanical injector can
              need a lot of precision in the making but it is mechanical in the end, a
              small machine shop has a much better chance of making or fixing all the
              parts of a mechanical injector than of making the parts for spark
              ignition. And it seems to me that you might be able to run the engine
              using vegetable oil to fire off the woodgas, and be running 100% on
              renewables.

              I've also been intrigued with the thought of having an engine fired with
              a fire tube or hot bulb. This is a really old technology, meant for
              engines running around 250 rpm or so. Some of those old slow speed engines
              ran for decades, as I understand, though the fire tube didn't last that
              long. Very simple idea, you have a closed tube at the end of the cylinder
              head, and play a flame on it. Gas and air are compressed by the engine and
              as the piston gets to the top, the mixture is compressed up into the fire
              tube far enough to get to the hot spot, and it fires. By changing the
              height of the hot spot on the tube, you could do a primitive timing. This
              fire tube would tend to burn out in a year or so, being red hot and also
              subject to the pressures of an engine is hard duty, but it is a pretty
              simple piece. You do away with the precision of a diesel
              injector. Woodgas would do well at such slow speeds, but you need a big
              displacement to get much power. And you would probably not want a high
              compression ratio with the fire tube, but woodgas works best at a high
              compression ratio. As so often, conflicting parameters...Those old engines
              were stationary, very low power to weight ratio.
              The hot bulb is similar to the fire tube, but using a much thicker,
              shorter chamber. Would last probably as long as the engine, but no way to
              adjust the timing.

              The idea with both of these is similar to tiny engines still used in
              model airplanes, they are frequently glow plug engines. They can run at
              pretty high speeds, too, so it seems you might easily get faster than the
              250 rpm range if you wanted, with this sort of ignition.

              Just had the thought that maybe you could have your glowing element in a
              "fire tube", and by raising or lowering it in the fire tube, you could vary
              the timing. And the fire tube, no longer being heated red hot with an
              external flame, could be thicker, last much longer, and you would not have
              the expense of the gas used to heat it, either. You would probably need to
              insulate the fire tube so that the element would stay hot enough.

              Well, just musing at the keyboard here. Might be some things to try.

              Arthur

              At 02:21 PM 11/1/05 -0500, you wrote:
              >: "Arthur C Noll" <arthurnoll@...>
              >
              > > my experience taught me you need at least a small community
              > > of people with you to make it, and I haven't found how to get
              > > anything like that going, either. Lots of false starts.
              >
              >Hi Arthur;
              >
              >I suspect that it would be possible for someone to gather
              >a group, via YahooGroups, to get together a small number
              >of yurters on BLM land for a trial period, of nomadic life.
              >Might even make a nice month vacation for a starter.Call
              >the group "YurtLiving" and just let it wander where it will ;O)
              >
              > > Of the various engines, the slow speed diesel looks the best to
              > > me, but new ones are well out of my price range, and I've never
              > > seen a used one for sale, or free as a lot of small used gasoline
              > > engines are.
              >
              >Any knowledgeable opinions about these:
              >
              ><http://tinyurl.com/dylb3>http://tinyurl.com/dylb3
              >http://tinyurl.com/by6he
              >
              >-Laren Corie-
              >Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
              >
              >-LittleHouses-
              ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses
              >
              >-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter- Free at www.rebelwolf.com
              >
              >-Refrigerator Alternatives-
              ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
              >
              >
              >
              >----------
              >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > * Visit your group "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas>WoodGas"
              > on the web.
              > *
              > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > *
              > <mailto:WoodGas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>WoodGas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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            • Ash Daminato
              I suspect in this case the existing spark plug acts as a glow plug and ignites the diesel.
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                I suspect in this case the existing spark plug acts as a glow plug and
                ignites the diesel.

                Garret Crisler wrote:

                >Every diesel engine I have ever seen has a very sophisticated fuel injection system. I have not seen it done using valves! At least not in modern diesel engines. I will try the lawn mower experiment you have suggested, I don't believe the engine will run on diesel even when warm. I truely believe it won't run with the ignition off. Briggs engines only have a compression ration of around 6 or 7:1. This isn't enough to ignite any fuel. If it was the gasoline would preignite and would cause detonation and destroy the engine in short order.
                >
                >Garret Crisler
                >
                >
              • Arthur C Noll
                My brother and I once put diesel in a small spark engine. Was in the winter with a snowblower. Tecumsuh engine, not B&S, but not much difference. 8 hp, as I
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  My brother and I once put diesel in a small spark engine. Was in the
                  winter with a snowblower. Tecumsuh engine, not B&S, but not much
                  difference. 8 hp, as I recall. It was a mixture of a small amount of
                  gasoline and the rest of the tank was either diesel or kerosene, can't
                  remember. We had run out of gasoline in a big storm. I wouldn't have
                  done it, not my engine to play with, but he poured it in. Both of us were
                  surprised at how much more power it had, just the opposite of what I've
                  read about running spark ignition on diesel or kerosene. No smoke. And it
                  shut down when the spark was shut off. We used up that mixed tank and put
                  in another tankful of pure diesel, no mixture, and it ran the same. Of
                  course the engine was hot at that point. Never tried to start it on pure
                  diesel.

                  Of course, this was in the winter, was cold, maybe 10 or 15 F, we were
                  blowing snow in a snowstorm, lots of snow in the air and lots of it hitting
                  the engine, providing cooling, and that might have made a
                  difference. Never tried anything like this in warm or hot weather. But as
                  I think about it, I can't make sense out of it. Why should colder weather,
                  a cooler engine, give better combustion? People always talk about lots of
                  smoke and poor power running diesel in a spark engine, that speaks to me of
                  poor combustion. There is actually more energy in diesel, but the spark
                  engine doesn't burn it effectively. More heat generally means better
                  combustion. I can see how it would mean that the engine would shut off
                  when the spark was shut off, it wasn't dieseling, probably because of the
                  cold weather. A dieseling spark engine usually happens in hot weather with
                  a struggling cooling system in the engine. Then it is running like a model
                  gasoline engine with a glow plug, or like the old hot bulb engine.

                  This was years ago, and I wasn't much interested in it then, and it
                  wasn't my engine to play with anyway, so I never did anything more with
                  it. If it had been up to me, I wouldn't have been using a snowblower at
                  all, I found that using snowshoes and skis and going over the snow instead
                  of struggling to move it, was more energy efficient, but that is another
                  problem. But I've always remembered this aspect of it, how surprised I was
                  at how well it worked on diesel, and have sometimes puzzled over it. It may
                  have been kerosene, as I said I can't remember, but the two are very
                  similar. We used to put kerosene in the diesel tractor or truck we had at
                  the time, especially in cold weather, and it worked virtually identical to
                  diesel. Kerosene congeals at much lower temperatures than diesel, is the
                  main difference as far as I know.

                  If the usual experience is to get lots of smoke, that means incomplete
                  combustion, which could mean not enough air, or too short a burning time,
                  or both. Maybe the cold prevented the usual amount of fuel being sucked
                  into the engine, with the result that there was enough air for complete
                  combustion. In that case it would seem to be a simple matter of adjusting
                  the fuel flow to get similar results in warmer temperatures. ?

                  It would be interesting to know just what was going on with that and see
                  if it could be reproduced again and under other conditions. It seems to
                  fly in the face of every other experience I've been told about of putting
                  diesel fuel in a spark engine.

                  Arthur

                  At 03:13 PM 11/3/05 -0800, you wrote:
                  >Just a note about a gas engine as compared to a deisel engine. A deisel
                  >uses a fuel injection and has no ignition, a gas engine uses vales for
                  >fuel ingestion and spark ignition. A deisel does not HAVE to use fuel
                  >injection, it can be accomplished with valves. A simple experiment to try
                  >is take any old (or new) Briggs and stratton lawn mower with very little
                  >gas in the fuel tank. Start and run it till it warms up and let it run
                  >till it starts to faulter due to running out of gas, at this point dump
                  >some diesel fuel into the gas tank. The engine will continue to run on
                  >deisel. Shutting of the ignition (spark) has no effect at this point.
                  >Speed can still be regulated by the throttle control. At this point you
                  >will have to let it run out of deisel, or place the equiptment under a
                  >VERY heavy overload in order to stop it. If the unit is equipped with a
                  >compliance blade brake, it will not shut off if the bail is released, it
                  >will continue to run at a reduced speed due to the brake being
                  >applied, but will cause excessive wear to the brake lining. I would advise
                  >letting it run out of deisel or else you will have to dissassemble and
                  >clean the remaining deisel from the carb and fuel tank before normal gas
                  >operation can be restored.
                  >
                  >Arthur C Noll <arthurnoll@...> wrote:
                  >Good idea, Laren, I may try that. I have toyed with the idea in the past
                  >but it seemed like there wasn't any interest in the lists I was on. But
                  >spreading a wider net is a good idea. And I've also had some health
                  >problems that would have kept me pretty much on the sidelines, I didn't
                  >have energy to deal with everything. I've been feeling better, if that
                  >continues I could put a little more energy into the whole idea now.
                  >
                  >Of the engines, I have no experience with anything like them, but
                  >interesting to see them. All I had previously found was a 5.5 hp diesel
                  >sold by Northern Tools, for about 1700 dollars. Of course these offered on
                  >ebay have some time before the bidding is done. It seems that Mike Anthony
                  >has one very similar to the smallest one on this ebay offering. As he
                  >says, the higher rpm is something of a concern. Both for longevity, and
                  >from what I've read, could be a problem with woodgas, which seems to like a
                  >slower engine because of the slower burning characteristics. Possibly you
                  >could run these small engines slower, would lose some power, but probably
                  >less power loss than with a spark ignition engine. And running completely
                  >on the diesel or vegetable oil, would provide some standby reserve of power.
                  >
                  > I like the idea of a diesel because it does away with the spark ignition
                  >system, always a potential source of trouble. A mechanical injector can
                  >need a lot of precision in the making but it is mechanical in the end, a
                  >small machine shop has a much better chance of making or fixing all the
                  >parts of a mechanical injector than of making the parts for spark
                  >ignition. And it seems to me that you might be able to run the engine
                  >using vegetable oil to fire off the woodgas, and be running 100% on
                  >renewables.
                  >
                  > I've also been intrigued with the thought of having an engine fired with
                  >a fire tube or hot bulb. This is a really old technology, meant for
                  >engines running around 250 rpm or so. Some of those old slow speed engines
                  >ran for decades, as I understand, though the fire tube didn't last that
                  >long. Very simple idea, you have a closed tube at the end of the cylinder
                  >head, and play a flame on it. Gas and air are compressed by the engine and
                  >as the piston gets to the top, the mixture is compressed up into the fire
                  >tube far enough to get to the hot spot, and it fires. By changing the
                  >height of the hot spot on the tube, you could do a primitive timing. This
                  >fire tube would tend to burn out in a year or so, being red hot and also
                  >subject to the pressures of an engine is hard duty, but it is a pretty
                  >simple piece. You do away with the precision of a diesel
                  >injector. Woodgas would do well at such slow speeds, but you need a big
                  >displacement to get much power. And you would probably not want a high
                  >compression ratio with the fire tube, but woodgas works best at a high
                  >compression ratio. As so often, conflicting parameters...Those old engines
                  >were stationary, very low power to weight ratio.
                  > The hot bulb is similar to the fire tube, but using a much thicker,
                  >shorter chamber. Would last probably as long as the engine, but no way to
                  >adjust the timing.
                  >
                  > The idea with both of these is similar to tiny engines still used in
                  >model airplanes, they are frequently glow plug engines. They can run at
                  >pretty high speeds, too, so it seems you might easily get faster than the
                  >250 rpm range if you wanted, with this sort of ignition.
                  >
                  > Just had the thought that maybe you could have your glowing element in a
                  >"fire tube", and by raising or lowering it in the fire tube, you could vary
                  >the timing. And the fire tube, no longer being heated red hot with an
                  >external flame, could be thicker, last much longer, and you would not have
                  >the expense of the gas used to heat it, either. You would probably need to
                  >insulate the fire tube so that the element would stay hot enough.
                  >
                  > Well, just musing at the keyboard here. Might be some things to try.
                  >
                  >Arthur
                  >
                  >At 02:21 PM 11/1/05 -0500, you wrote:
                  > >: "Arthur C Noll" <arthurnoll@...>
                  > >
                  > > > my experience taught me you need at least a small community
                  > > > of people with you to make it, and I haven't found how to get
                  > > > anything like that going, either. Lots of false starts.
                  > >
                  > >Hi Arthur;
                  > >
                  > >I suspect that it would be possible for someone to gather
                  > >a group, via YahooGroups, to get together a small number
                  > >of yurters on BLM land for a trial period, of nomadic life.
                  > >Might even make a nice month vacation for a starter.Call
                  > >the group "YurtLiving" and just let it wander where it will ;O)
                  > >
                  > > > Of the various engines, the slow speed diesel looks the best to
                  > > > me, but new ones are well out of my price range, and I've never
                  > > > seen a used one for sale, or free as a lot of small used gasoline
                  > > > engines are.
                  > >
                  > >Any knowledgeable opinions about these:
                  > >
                  > ><<http://tinyurl.com/dylb3>http://tinyurl.com/dylb3>http://tinyurl.com/dylb3
                  > ><http://tinyurl.com/by6he>http://tinyurl.com/by6he
                  > >
                  > >-Laren Corie-
                  > >Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
                  > >
                  > >-LittleHouses-
                  > ><<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses>http://groups.yahoo.com/grou
                  > p/LittleHouses>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses
                  > >
                  > >-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter- Free at www.rebelwolf.com
                  > >
                  > >-Refrigerator Alternatives-
                  > ><<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives>http://groups.ya
                  > hoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >----------
                  > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > > * Visit your group
                  > "<<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas>WoodGas"
                  >
                  > > on the web.
                  > > *
                  > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > *
                  > >
                  > <mailto:WoodGas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>WoodGas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > >
                  > > *
                  > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                  > >
                  > <<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo!
                  > Terms of Service.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >----------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >SPONSORED LINKS
                  >Energy healing Natural gas Save energy Science kits Science education
                  >Alternative energy
                  >
                  >---------------------------------
                  >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  >
                  > Visit your group "WoodGas" on the web.
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                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                • Daryl P. Dacko
                  ... Back in the old days they had something called Power Fuel that you could get for your F-10 Farmall tractor (and others). You started the tractor on gas
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Arthur C Noll wrote:

                    >
                    > My brother and I once put diesel in a small spark engine. Was in the
                    > winter with a snowblower. Tecumsuh engine, not B&S, but not much
                    > difference. 8 hp, as I recall. It was a mixture of a small amount of
                    > gasoline and the rest of the tank was either diesel or kerosene, can't
                    > remember. We had run out of gasoline in a big storm. I wouldn't have
                    > done it, not my engine to play with, but he poured it in. Both of us
                    > were
                    > surprised at how much more power it had, just the opposite of what I've
                    > read about running spark ignition on diesel or kerosene. No smoke.
                    > And it
                    > shut down when the spark was shut off. We used up that mixed tank and
                    > put
                    > in another tankful of pure diesel, no mixture, and it ran the same. Of
                    > course the engine was hot at that point. Never tried to start it on pure
                    > diesel.

                    Back in the old days they had something called "Power Fuel" that you
                    could get for your F-10 Farmall tractor (and others).
                    You started the tractor on gas and one the engine was good and hot you
                    switched over to the power fuel.
                    You had to adjust the spark advance once you switched, but it gave a lot
                    more power than gas.
                    My dad told me it was a very clean kerosene, and that folks used it
                    because it was cheaper than gas.
                    These old engines all had *very* adjustable timing via a lever right
                    next to the throttle.
                    I think these engines were long stroke type giving more time for the
                    slower burring kerosene time to compust.
                    We owned one of these for many years.

                    I also remember a gas/diesel bulldozer, International brand, that you
                    started up on gas, and once hot, you pulled a couple of levers and it
                    switched to diesel operation. It'd cough and smoke for a while until it
                    really warmed up, and then off you'd go.

                    It seems like the old long stroke, slow speed engines are the way to go
                    for power and longevity.

                    > It would be interesting to know just what was going on with that
                    > and see
                    > if it could be reproduced again and under other conditions. It seems to
                    > fly in the face of every other experience I've been told about of putting
                    > diesel fuel in a spark engine.
                    >
                    > Arthur

                    I suspect that it has a *lot* to do with the individual design of the
                    combustion chamber...

                    Daryl
                  • Tim Jones
                    Believe what you want, But I know for a fact that it works as described. As a matter of fact, I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Believe what you want, But I know for a fact that it works as described. As a matter of fact, I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional head gasket to decrease the compression ratio, but the engine will run as is. I dont know how much power you will actually be getting out of the engine, but that is beside the point, the engine WILL run.

                      Garret Crisler <gcrisler1@...> wrote:Every diesel engine I have ever seen has a very sophisticated fuel injection system. I have not seen it done using valves! At least not in modern diesel engines. I will try the lawn mower experiment you have suggested, I don't believe the engine will run on diesel even when warm. I truely believe it won't run with the ignition off. Briggs engines only have a compression ration of around 6 or 7:1. This isn't enough to ignite any fuel. If it was the gasoline would preignite and would cause detonation and destroy the engine in short order.

                      Garret Crisler


                      Tim Jones <gorp27@...> wrote:
                      Just a note about a gas engine as compared to a diesel engine. A diesel uses a fuel injection and has no ignition, a gas engine uses vales for fuel ingestion and spark ignition. A diesel does not HAVE to use fuel injection, it can be accomplished with valves. A simple experiment to try is take any old (or new) Briggs and stratton lawn mower with very little gas in the fuel tank. Start and run it till it warms up and let it run till it starts to faulter due to running out of gas, at this point dump some diesel fuel into the gas tank. The engine will continue to run on deisel. Shutting of the ignition (spark) has no effect at this point. Speed can still be regulated by the throttle control. At this point you will have to let it run out of deisel, or place the equiptment under a VERY heavy overload in order to stop it. If the unit is equipped with a compliance blade brake, it will not shut off if the bail is released, it will continue to run at a reduced speed due to the brake being
                      applied, but will cause excessive wear to the brake lining. I would advise letting it run out of deisel or else you will have to dissassemble and clean the remaining deisel from the carb and fuel tank before normal gas operation can be restored.

                      Arthur C Noll <arthurnoll@...> wrote:
                      Good idea, Laren, I may try that. I have toyed with the idea in the past
                      but it seemed like there wasn't any interest in the lists I was on. But
                      spreading a wider net is a good idea. And I've also had some health
                      problems that would have kept me pretty much on the sidelines, I didn't
                      have energy to deal with everything. I've been feeling better, if that
                      continues I could put a little more energy into the whole idea now.

                      Of the engines, I have no experience with anything like them, but
                      interesting to see them. All I had previously found was a 5.5 hp diesel
                      sold by Northern Tools, for about 1700 dollars. Of course these offered on
                      ebay have some time before the bidding is done. It seems that Mike Anthony
                      has one very similar to the smallest one on this ebay offering. As he
                      says, the higher rpm is something of a concern. Both for longevity, and
                      from what I've read, could be a problem with woodgas, which seems to like a
                      slower engine because of the slower burning characteristics. Possibly you
                      could run these small engines slower, would lose some power, but probably
                      less power loss than with a spark ignition engine. And running completely
                      on the diesel or vegetable oil, would provide some standby reserve of power.

                      I like the idea of a diesel because it does away with the spark ignition
                      system, always a potential source of trouble. A mechanical injector can
                      need a lot of precision in the making but it is mechanical in the end, a
                      small machine shop has a much better chance of making or fixing all the
                      parts of a mechanical injector than of making the parts for spark
                      ignition. And it seems to me that you might be able to run the engine
                      using vegetable oil to fire off the woodgas, and be running 100% on
                      renewables.

                      I've also been intrigued with the thought of having an engine fired with
                      a fire tube or hot bulb. This is a really old technology, meant for
                      engines running around 250 rpm or so. Some of those old slow speed engines
                      ran for decades, as I understand, though the fire tube didn't last that
                      long. Very simple idea, you have a closed tube at the end of the cylinder
                      head, and play a flame on it. Gas and air are compressed by the engine and
                      as the piston gets to the top, the mixture is compressed up into the fire
                      tube far enough to get to the hot spot, and it fires. By changing the
                      height of the hot spot on the tube, you could do a primitive timing. This
                      fire tube would tend to burn out in a year or so, being red hot and also
                      subject to the pressures of an engine is hard duty, but it is a pretty
                      simple piece. You do away with the precision of a diesel
                      injector. Woodgas would do well at such slow speeds, but you need a big
                      displacement to get much power. And you would probably not want a high
                      compression ratio with the fire tube, but woodgas works best at a high
                      compression ratio. As so often, conflicting parameters...Those old engines
                      were stationary, very low power to weight ratio.
                      The hot bulb is similar to the fire tube, but using a much thicker,
                      shorter chamber. Would last probably as long as the engine, but no way to
                      adjust the timing.

                      The idea with both of these is similar to tiny engines still used in
                      model airplanes, they are frequently glow plug engines. They can run at
                      pretty high speeds, too, so it seems you might easily get faster than the
                      250 rpm range if you wanted, with this sort of ignition.

                      Just had the thought that maybe you could have your glowing element in a
                      "fire tube", and by raising or lowering it in the fire tube, you could vary
                      the timing. And the fire tube, no longer being heated red hot with an
                      external flame, could be thicker, last much longer, and you would not have
                      the expense of the gas used to heat it, either. You would probably need to
                      insulate the fire tube so that the element would stay hot enough.

                      Well, just musing at the keyboard here. Might be some things to try.

                      Arthur

                      At 02:21 PM 11/1/05 -0500, you wrote:
                      >: "Arthur C Noll" <arthurnoll@...>
                      >
                      > > my experience taught me you need at least a small community
                      > > of people with you to make it, and I haven't found how to get
                      > > anything like that going, either. Lots of false starts.
                      >
                      >Hi Arthur;
                      >
                      >I suspect that it would be possible for someone to gather
                      >a group, via YahooGroups, to get together a small number
                      >of yurters on BLM land for a trial period, of nomadic life.
                      >Might even make a nice month vacation for a starter.Call
                      >the group "YurtLiving" and just let it wander where it will ;O)
                      >
                      > > Of the various engines, the slow speed diesel looks the best to
                      > > me, but new ones are well out of my price range, and I've never
                      > > seen a used one for sale, or free as a lot of small used gasoline
                      > > engines are.
                      >
                      >Any knowledgeable opinions about these:
                      >
                      ><http://tinyurl.com/dylb3>http://tinyurl.com/dylb3
                      >http://tinyurl.com/by6he
                      >
                      >-Laren Corie-
                      >Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
                      >
                      >-LittleHouses-
                      ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses
                      >
                      >-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter- Free at www.rebelwolf.com
                      >
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                      ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
                      >
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                    • Tim Jones
                      Not so. try the experiment, but go a little further once the engine is running, short the plug out using an insulated screwdriver or some such device. Warning.
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
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                        Not so. try the experiment, but go a little further once the engine is running, short the plug out using an insulated screwdriver or some such device. Warning. do not disconnect the sparkplug high tension lead, this can lead to damage of the ignition system (magnetron electronic ignition) and will be costly to repair.

                        Ash Daminato <ash.daminato@...> wrote:I suspect in this case the existing spark plug acts as a glow plug and
                        ignites the diesel.

                        Garret Crisler wrote:

                        >Every diesel engine I have ever seen has a very sophisticated fuel injection system. I have not seen it done using valves! At least not in modern diesel engines. I will try the lawn mower experiment you have suggested, I don't believe the engine will run on diesel even when warm. I truely believe it won't run with the ignition off. Briggs engines only have a compression ration of around 6 or 7:1. This isn't enough to ignite any fuel. If it was the gasoline would preignite and would cause detonation and destroy the engine in short order.
                        >
                        >Garret Crisler
                        >
                        >






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                      • mrvanderhof
                        I had a Snapper lawn mower with an 8 horse gas engine on it. I goofed one day wehn the tank was almost empty I put diesel in by accident. I started mowing
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
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                          I had a Snapper lawn mower with an 8 horse gas engine on it. I goofed
                          one day wehn the tank was almost empty I put diesel in by accident. I
                          started mowing and the engie strted to really rap, sounded very sharp.
                          So I was trying to think what it could be. I stoped and smelled the
                          fuel and ralized what I had done. I drained the diesel, including the
                          carb bowl, filled with gas and all was well. It was runing on diesel
                          though.

                          David

                          --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Tim Jones <gorp27@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Believe what you want, But I know for a fact that it works as
                          described. As a matter of fact, I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals
                          that describe in detail how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual
                          fuel set up with 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or
                          deisel with shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an
                          additional head gasket to decrease the compression ratio, but the
                          engine will run as is. I dont know how much power you will actually be
                          getting out of the engine, but that is beside the point, the engine
                          WILL run.
                          >
                          > Garret Crisler <gcrisler1@y...> wrote:Every diesel engine I have
                          ever seen has a very sophisticated fuel injection system. I have not
                          seen it done using valves! At least not in modern diesel engines. I
                          will try the lawn mower experiment you have suggested, I don't believe
                          the engine will run on diesel even when warm. I truely believe it
                          won't run with the ignition off. Briggs engines only have a
                          compression ration of around 6 or 7:1. This isn't enough to ignite any
                          fuel. If it was the gasoline would preignite and would cause
                          detonation and destroy the engine in short order.
                          >
                          > Garret Crisler
                          >
                          >
                          > Tim Jones <gorp27@y...> wrote:
                          > Just a note about a gas engine as compared to a diesel engine. A
                          diesel uses a fuel injection and has no ignition, a gas engine uses
                          vales for fuel ingestion and spark ignition. A diesel does not HAVE to
                          use fuel injection, it can be accomplished with valves. A simple
                          experiment to try is take any old (or new) Briggs and stratton lawn
                          mower with very little gas in the fuel tank. Start and run it till it
                          warms up and let it run till it starts to faulter due to running out
                          of gas, at this point dump some diesel fuel into the gas tank. The
                          engine will continue to run on deisel. Shutting of the ignition
                          (spark) has no effect at this point. Speed can still be regulated by
                          the throttle control. At this point you will have to let it run out of
                          deisel, or place the equiptment under a VERY heavy overload in order
                          to stop it. If the unit is equipped with a compliance blade brake, it
                          will not shut off if the bail is released, it will continue to run at
                          a reduced speed due to the brake being
                          > applied, but will cause excessive wear to the brake lining. I would
                          advise letting it run out of deisel or else you will have to
                          dissassemble and clean the remaining deisel from the carb and fuel
                          tank before normal gas operation can be restored.
                          >
                          > Arthur C Noll <arthurnoll@o...> wrote:
                          > Good idea, Laren, I may try that. I have toyed with the idea in the
                          past
                          > but it seemed like there wasn't any interest in the lists I was on.
                          But
                          > spreading a wider net is a good idea. And I've also had some health
                          > problems that would have kept me pretty much on the sidelines, I didn't
                          > have energy to deal with everything. I've been feeling better, if that
                          > continues I could put a little more energy into the whole idea now.
                          >
                          > Of the engines, I have no experience with anything like them, but
                          > interesting to see them. All I had previously found was a 5.5 hp
                          diesel
                          > sold by Northern Tools, for about 1700 dollars. Of course these
                          offered on
                          > ebay have some time before the bidding is done. It seems that Mike
                          Anthony
                          > has one very similar to the smallest one on this ebay offering. As he
                          > says, the higher rpm is something of a concern. Both for longevity,
                          and
                          > from what I've read, could be a problem with woodgas, which seems to
                          like a
                          > slower engine because of the slower burning characteristics.
                          Possibly you
                          > could run these small engines slower, would lose some power, but
                          probably
                          > less power loss than with a spark ignition engine. And running
                          completely
                          > on the diesel or vegetable oil, would provide some standby reserve
                          of power.
                          >
                          > I like the idea of a diesel because it does away with the spark
                          ignition
                          > system, always a potential source of trouble. A mechanical injector
                          can
                          > need a lot of precision in the making but it is mechanical in the
                          end, a
                          > small machine shop has a much better chance of making or fixing all the
                          > parts of a mechanical injector than of making the parts for spark
                          > ignition. And it seems to me that you might be able to run the engine
                          > using vegetable oil to fire off the woodgas, and be running 100% on
                          > renewables.
                          >
                          > I've also been intrigued with the thought of having an engine
                          fired with
                          > a fire tube or hot bulb. This is a really old technology, meant for
                          > engines running around 250 rpm or so. Some of those old slow speed
                          engines
                          > ran for decades, as I understand, though the fire tube didn't last that
                          > long. Very simple idea, you have a closed tube at the end of the
                          cylinder
                          > head, and play a flame on it. Gas and air are compressed by the
                          engine and
                          > as the piston gets to the top, the mixture is compressed up into the
                          fire
                          > tube far enough to get to the hot spot, and it fires. By changing the
                          > height of the hot spot on the tube, you could do a primitive timing.
                          This
                          > fire tube would tend to burn out in a year or so, being red hot and
                          also
                          > subject to the pressures of an engine is hard duty, but it is a pretty
                          > simple piece. You do away with the precision of a diesel
                          > injector. Woodgas would do well at such slow speeds, but you need
                          a big
                          > displacement to get much power. And you would probably not want a high
                          > compression ratio with the fire tube, but woodgas works best at a high
                          > compression ratio. As so often, conflicting parameters...Those old
                          engines
                          > were stationary, very low power to weight ratio.
                          > The hot bulb is similar to the fire tube, but using a much thicker,
                          > shorter chamber. Would last probably as long as the engine, but no
                          way to
                          > adjust the timing.
                          >
                          > The idea with both of these is similar to tiny engines still used in
                          > model airplanes, they are frequently glow plug engines. They can
                          run at
                          > pretty high speeds, too, so it seems you might easily get faster
                          than the
                          > 250 rpm range if you wanted, with this sort of ignition.
                          >
                          > Just had the thought that maybe you could have your glowing
                          element in a
                          > "fire tube", and by raising or lowering it in the fire tube, you
                          could vary
                          > the timing. And the fire tube, no longer being heated red hot with an
                          > external flame, could be thicker, last much longer, and you would
                          not have
                          > the expense of the gas used to heat it, either. You would probably
                          need to
                          > insulate the fire tube so that the element would stay hot enough.
                          >
                          > Well, just musing at the keyboard here. Might be some things to try.
                          >
                          > Arthur
                          >
                          > At 02:21 PM 11/1/05 -0500, you wrote:
                          > >: "Arthur C Noll" <arthurnoll@o...>
                          > >
                          > > > my experience taught me you need at least a small community
                          > > > of people with you to make it, and I haven't found how to get
                          > > > anything like that going, either. Lots of false starts.
                          > >
                          > >Hi Arthur;
                          > >
                          > >I suspect that it would be possible for someone to gather
                          > >a group, via YahooGroups, to get together a small number
                          > >of yurters on BLM land for a trial period, of nomadic life.
                          > >Might even make a nice month vacation for a starter.Call
                          > >the group "YurtLiving" and just let it wander where it will ;O)
                          > >
                          > > > Of the various engines, the slow speed diesel looks the best to
                          > > > me, but new ones are well out of my price range, and I've never
                          > > > seen a used one for sale, or free as a lot of small used gasoline
                          > > > engines are.
                          > >
                          > >Any knowledgeable opinions about these:
                          > >
                          > ><http://tinyurl.com/dylb3>http://tinyurl.com/dylb3
                          > >http://tinyurl.com/by6he
                          > >
                          > >-Laren Corie-
                          > >Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
                          > >
                          > >-LittleHouses-
                          >
                          ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses
                          > >
                          > >-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter- Free at www.rebelwolf.com
                          > >
                          > >-Refrigerator Alternatives-
                          >
                          ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >----------
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                        • Daryl P. Dacko
                          ... Just out of curiosity, are there are other changes need besides the extra head gasket ? I m quite curious if the timeing neeeded to be changed. Thanks,
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
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                            Tim Jones wrote:

                            > Believe what you want, But I know for a fact that it works as
                            > described. As a matter of fact, I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals
                            > that describe in detail how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual
                            > fuel set up with 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or
                            > deisel with shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an
                            > additional head gasket to decrease the compression ratio, but the
                            > engine will run as is. I dont know how much power you will actually be
                            > getting out of the engine, but that is beside the point, the engine
                            > WILL run.

                            Just out of curiosity, are there are other changes need besides the
                            extra head gasket ?

                            I'm quite curious if the timeing neeeded to be changed.

                            Thanks,

                            Daryl
                          • Tim Jones
                            Could be that the cold air is denser than hot air, thus a leaner fuel to air ratio. Also snow blowers do not usually use an air filter that restricts the
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Could be that the cold air is denser than hot air, thus a leaner fuel to air ratio. Also snow blowers do not usually use an air filter that restricts the incoming air.

                              Arthur C Noll <arthurnoll@...> wrote:

                              Of course, this was in the winter, was cold, maybe 10 or 15 F, we were
                              blowing snow in a snowstorm, lots of snow in the air and lots of it hitting
                              the engine, providing cooling, and that might have made a
                              difference. Never tried anything like this in warm or hot weather. But as
                              I think about it, I can't make sense out of it. Why should colder weather,
                              a cooler engine, give better combustion? People always talk about lots of
                              smoke and poor power running diesel in a spark engine, that speaks to me of
                              poor combustion. There is actually more energy in diesel, but the spark
                              engine doesn't burn it effectively. More heat generally means better
                              combustion.


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                            • LarenCorie
                              Tim Jones ... Hi Tim; That is an interesting piece of information. Would you mind scanning it, and uploading it to the group Files
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                "Tim Jones" <gorp27@...>

                                > I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                                > how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with
                                > 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with
                                > shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional
                                > head gasket to decrease the compression ratio

                                Hi Tim;

                                That is an interesting piece of information. Would you
                                mind scanning it, and uploading it to the group Files section?

                                -Laren Corie-
                                Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
                              • Tim Jones
                                Yes, To run as effeciantly as possible the timing should be changed, a head gasket should be added, dual fuel tanks and control valves should be added, and the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Yes, To run as effeciantly as possible the timing should be changed, a head gasket should be added, dual fuel tanks and control valves should be added, and the carb adjusted for correct mixture. I have downloaded the conversion text and Jpegs to the files section.

                                  "Daryl P. Dacko" <mycrump@...> wrote:Just out of curiosity, are there are other changes need besides the
                                  extra head gasket ?

                                  I'm quite curious if the timeing neeeded to be changed.

                                  Thanks,

                                  Daryl


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                                • Tim Jones
                                  Done! They are now there. LarenCorie wrote: Tim Jones ... Hi Tim; That is an interesting piece of information.
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                    Done! They are now there.

                                    LarenCorie <larencorie@...> wrote:"Tim Jones" <gorp27@...>

                                    > I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                                    > how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with
                                    > 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with
                                    > shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional
                                    > head gasket to decrease the compression ratio

                                    Hi Tim;

                                    That is an interesting piece of information. Would you
                                    mind scanning it, and uploading it to the group Files section?

                                    -Laren Corie-
                                    Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975


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                                  • LarenCorie
                                    Tim Jones ... Both of mine do. One real old. One from the 90s. -Laren Corie- Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                      "Tim Jones" <gorp27@...>

                                      > snow blowers do not usually use an air filter that restricts the
                                      > incoming air.

                                      Both of mine do. One real old. One from the 90s.

                                      -Laren Corie-
                                      Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
                                    • GuyW
                                      ... With a dedicated diesel, dark smoke means too much fuel....lean out a gasoline engine if it s too smoky on diesel... -Guy-
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        > If the usual experience is to get lots of smoke, that means incomplete
                                        > combustion, which could mean not enough air, or too short a burning time,
                                        > or both.

                                        With a dedicated diesel, dark smoke means too much fuel....lean out a
                                        gasoline engine if it's too smoky on diesel...

                                        -Guy-
                                      • Louis Pelletier
                                        a word of caution. kero, diesel, jet fuel, are all VERY LOW OCTANE, in the 30s IIRC. a freind of mine was mixing jet b fuel with aviation gas to streach his
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                          a word of caution. kero, diesel, jet fuel,
                                          are all VERY LOW OCTANE, in the 30s IIRC.
                                          a freind of mine was mixing jet b fuel with aviation
                                          gas to streach his fuel supply. it cost him a
                                          new engine. ($20,000.)
                                          Louis Pelletier
                                          in Beautiful British Columbia

                                          >
                                          >> I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                                          >> how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with
                                          >> 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with
                                          >> shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional
                                          >> head gasket to decrease the compression ratio
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Tim Jones
                                          The key word is usually. Most snow throwers just use a shroud or baffle over the carb intake and eliminate the filter alltogether, The reasoning behind this
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                            The key word is usually. Most snow throwers just use a shroud or baffle over the carb intake and eliminate the filter alltogether, The reasoning behind this approach is that there will be no or very small amounts of dust in the air due to snow being wet and causing dust to become mud, and mud does not like to float around in the air like dust does. Also if you are blowing very fine snow that likes to blow around alot, it tends to get sucked into the filter and start accumulating, therby causing restricted air flow that will cause the engine to choke and not have full power. But than again some manufacturers ignore this and leave the filter on. Most times it will not harm anything being there, but it is not needed.

                                            LarenCorie <larencorie@...> wrote:"Tim Jones" <gorp27@...>

                                            > snow blowers do not usually use an air filter that restricts the
                                            > incoming air.

                                            Both of mine do. One real old. One from the 90s.

                                            -Laren Corie-
                                            Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975


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                                          • Tim Jones
                                            I would never attempt to try something like that on a $20.000 piece of equiptment, but lawn mowers are a dime a dozen. you can usually pick them up in the
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                              I would never attempt to try something like that on a $20.000 piece of equiptment, but lawn mowers are a dime a dozen. you can usually pick them up in the trash and with very little work get them running. There are only 3 things needed to make the average lawnmower run.
                                              1. Compression
                                              2. Carburation
                                              3. Ignition
                                              All three must be in good working order. Of all the lawn mowers that I have repaired, I would say that 70% quit running due to ignition troubles (sheared flywheel key, less than $1) 25% due to forein matter in the fuel system, and 5% due to loss of compression.
                                              Fixing a lawnmower engine is not that hard, just about any library will have a book on small engine repair, and with $20 worth of cheap tools most repairs can be preformed.

                                              Louis Pelletier <jbunny@...> wrote:
                                              a word of caution. kero, diesel, jet fuel,
                                              are all VERY LOW OCTANE, in the 30s IIRC.
                                              a freind of mine was mixing jet b fuel with aviation
                                              gas to streach his fuel supply. it cost him a
                                              new engine. ($20,000.)
                                              Louis Pelletier
                                              in Beautiful British Columbia

                                              >
                                              >> I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                                              >> how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with
                                              >> 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with
                                              >> shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional
                                              >> head gasket to decrease the compression ratio
                                              >
                                              >


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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • jimbsadler@adelphia.net
                                              Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Nov 21, 2005
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to switch over to kerosine after warm up. The cars ran OK but smoked like a bug bomb. It was highly illegal because it cheated the states out of their gasoline sales taxes. The states took it very seriously. It was not a minor offense at all.
                                                ---- Louis Pelletier <jbunny@...> wrote:
                                                > a word of caution. kero, diesel, jet fuel,
                                                > are all VERY LOW OCTANE, in the 30s IIRC.
                                                > a freind of mine was mixing jet b fuel with aviation
                                                > gas to streach his fuel supply. it cost him a
                                                > new engine. ($20,000.)
                                                > Louis Pelletier
                                                > in Beautiful British Columbia
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > >> I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                                                > >> how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with
                                                > >> 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with
                                                > >> shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional
                                                > >> head gasket to decrease the compression ratio
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • jimbsadler@adelphia.net
                                                Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Nov 21, 2005
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to switch over to kerosine after warm up. The cars ran OK but smoked like a bug bomb. It was highly illegal because it cheated the states out of their gasoline sales taxes. The states took it very seriously. It was not a minor offense at all.
                                                  ---- Louis Pelletier <jbunny@...> wrote:
                                                  > a word of caution. kero, diesel, jet fuel,
                                                  > are all VERY LOW OCTANE, in the 30s IIRC.
                                                  > a freind of mine was mixing jet b fuel with aviation
                                                  > gas to streach his fuel supply. it cost him a
                                                  > new engine. ($20,000.)
                                                  > Louis Pelletier
                                                  > in Beautiful British Columbia
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >> I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                                                  > >> how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with
                                                  > >> 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with
                                                  > >> shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional
                                                  > >> head gasket to decrease the compression ratio
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • jimbsadler@adelphia.net
                                                  Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Nov 21, 2005
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to switch over to kerosine after warm up. The cars ran OK but smoked like a bug bomb. It was highly illegal because it cheated the states out of their gasoline sales taxes. The states took it very seriously. It was not a minor offense at all.
                                                    ---- Louis Pelletier <jbunny@...> wrote:
                                                    > a word of caution. kero, diesel, jet fuel,
                                                    > are all VERY LOW OCTANE, in the 30s IIRC.
                                                    > a freind of mine was mixing jet b fuel with aviation
                                                    > gas to streach his fuel supply. it cost him a
                                                    > new engine. ($20,000.)
                                                    > Louis Pelletier
                                                    > in Beautiful British Columbia
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >> I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                                                    > >> how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with
                                                    > >> 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with
                                                    > >> shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional
                                                    > >> head gasket to decrease the compression ratio
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • jimbsadler@adelphia.net
                                                    Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Nov 21, 2005
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to switch over to kerosine after warm up. The cars ran OK but smoked like a bug bomb. It was highly illegal because it cheated the states out of their gasoline sales taxes. The states took it very seriously. It was not a minor offense at all.
                                                      ---- Louis Pelletier <jbunny@...> wrote:
                                                      > a word of caution. kero, diesel, jet fuel,
                                                      > are all VERY LOW OCTANE, in the 30s IIRC.
                                                      > a freind of mine was mixing jet b fuel with aviation
                                                      > gas to streach his fuel supply. it cost him a
                                                      > new engine. ($20,000.)
                                                      > Louis Pelletier
                                                      > in Beautiful British Columbia
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >> I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                                                      > >> how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with
                                                      > >> 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with
                                                      > >> shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional
                                                      > >> head gasket to decrease the compression ratio
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                    • jimbsadler@adelphia.net
                                                      Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Nov 21, 2005
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to switch over to kerosine after warm up. The cars ran OK but smoked like a bug bomb. It was highly illegal because it cheated the states out of their gasoline sales taxes. The states took it very seriously. It was not a minor offense at all.
                                                        ---- Louis Pelletier <jbunny@...> wrote:
                                                        > a word of caution. kero, diesel, jet fuel,
                                                        > are all VERY LOW OCTANE, in the 30s IIRC.
                                                        > a freind of mine was mixing jet b fuel with aviation
                                                        > gas to streach his fuel supply. it cost him a
                                                        > new engine. ($20,000.)
                                                        > Louis Pelletier
                                                        > in Beautiful British Columbia
                                                        >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >> I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                                                        > >> how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with
                                                        > >> 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with
                                                        > >> shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional
                                                        > >> head gasket to decrease the compression ratio
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                      • keith ford
                                                        Back during WW2 my granddad ran his tractor off kerosene. start on gas got hot switch to kero. The line from the kero tank was coiled around the exhaust
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Nov 22, 2005
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Back during WW2 my granddad ran his tractor off kerosene. start on gas got hot switch to kero. The line from the kero tank was coiled around the exhaust manifold. Gas was rationed then, i think he sad 3-5 gallons a week. kero was not.

                                                          jimbsadler@... wrote: Older Briggs engines were likely lower compression than todays models. It might take more modifications to run kerosene now. It was an old country stunt to switch over to kerosine after warm up. The cars ran OK but smoked like a bug bomb. It was highly illegal because it cheated the states out of their gasoline sales taxes. The states took it very seriously. It was not a minor offense at all.
                                                          ---- Louis Pelletier <jbunny@...> wrote:
                                                          > a word of caution. kero, diesel, jet fuel,
                                                          > are all VERY LOW OCTANE, in the 30s IIRC.
                                                          > a freind of mine was mixing jet b fuel with aviation
                                                          > gas to streach his fuel supply. it cost him a
                                                          > new engine. ($20,000.)
                                                          > Louis Pelletier
                                                          > in Beautiful British Columbia
                                                          >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >> I have old Briggs and Stratton manuals that describe in detail
                                                          > >> how to run an 8 HP gasoline engine as a dual fuel set up with
                                                          > >> 2 fuel tanks, 1 for gas and the other for kerosine or deisel with
                                                          > >> shut off valves. Briggs recomends the installation of an additional
                                                          > >> head gasket to decrease the compression ratio
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >



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