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Re: [WoodGas] Harold Bate....Yes, he did exist.

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  • Hakan Falk
    Ron, I read the article and cannot remember that diesel was mentioned, I got the impression that it was a gas engine. Also, I my memory do not fail too much,
    Message 1 of 27 , Oct 4, 2005
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      Ron,

      I read the article and cannot remember that diesel was mentioned, I
      got the impression that it was a gas engine. Also, I my memory do not
      fail too much, Hillman did not have a model with diesel engine at
      that time 30 years ago and especially since they talk about carburetor.

      Hakan


      At 18:37 04/10/2005, you wrote:
      >Hi All,
      >Harold Bate did exist, and Whole Earth Catalog and/or Mother Earth News had
      >his ad in about 1969. He was converting chicken manure to engine
      >fuel, and, if
      >my memory serves, running a diesel engine on it. As I was just learning
      >about the joys of the diesel automobile, having acquired a Mercedes
      >190 Dc, I was
      >interested in Bate's work.
      ><snip>
    • CLHW@INFOAVE.NET
      Has anyone googled the MEN site? They have an index of their articles. I believe it goes all the way back to issue #1.
      Message 2 of 27 , Oct 4, 2005
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        Has anyone googled the MEN site?
        They have an index of their articles.
        I believe it goes all the way back to issue #1.

        >Ron,
        >
        >I read the article and cannot remember that diesel was mentioned, I
        >got the impression that it was a gas engine. Also, I my memory do not
        >fail too much, Hillman did not have a model with diesel engine at
        >that time 30 years ago and especially since they talk about carburetor.
        >
        >Hakan
        >
        >
        >At 18:37 04/10/2005, you wrote:
        >>Hi All,
        >>Harold Bate did exist, and Whole Earth Catalog and/or Mother Earth News had
        >>his ad in about 1969. He was converting chicken manure to engine
        >>fuel, and, if
        >>my memory serves, running a diesel engine on it. As I was just learning
        >>about the joys of the diesel automobile, having acquired a Mercedes
        >>190 Dc, I was
        >>interested in Bate's work.
        >><snip>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Koopmans, Auke
        http://www.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/batesmethane.htm Mother Earth News Issue # 8 - March 1971 DISCLAIMER This email and any files transmitted with it are
        Message 3 of 27 , Oct 4, 2005
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          http://www.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/batesmethane.htm
          Mother Earth News Issue # 8 - March 1971




          DISCLAIMER
          This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SNV. SNV accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.


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        • Greg Manning
          I will say, that when I said my first statement, it was meant in good fun, and more so of a conversation piece. Hey, would I really mean it if I said I look
          Message 4 of 27 , Oct 4, 2005
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            I will say, that when I said my first statement, it was meant in good fun,
            and more so of a conversation piece.

            Hey, would I really mean it if I said I look like him ?????


            Greg



            -----Original Message-----
            From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
            maytagtwin@...
            Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 11:37 AM
            To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [WoodGas] Harold Bate....Yes, he did exist.


            Hi All,
            Harold Bate did exist, and Whole Earth Catalog and/or Mother Earth News had
            his ad in about 1969. He was converting chicken manure to engine fuel, and,
            if
            my memory serves, running a diesel engine on it. As I was just learning
            about the joys of the diesel automobile, having acquired a Mercedes 190 Dc,
            I was
            interested in Bate's work.

            He offered plans and some hardware. I bit, and sent him a money order. In
            return, he sent plans for building a digester, suggestions for high
            compression
            gas storage, and, a propane regulator. I was never able to make any use of
            it but I didn't feel that he had misled me as I didn't try his plans. The
            cost
            of all that he sent was modest, perhaps $30.

            So, I am of the opinion he did exist, and even may have been running his
            diesel on chicken manure. I can't call him a quack. A visionary, perhaps.
            Is
            there a difference?

            Regards,
            Ron Carroll
            PS: If you folks haven't run across an old copy of Whole Earth Catalog, you
            should. It was good for many an evening of dreaming and salivating. One of
            my favorites in there was CECOCO, a Japanese firm offering machines for
            small
            village technology. They had some rototillers running on diesel that I
            would
            have loved to own.




            In a message dated 10/4/2005 5:38:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            WoodGas@yahoogroups.com writes:
            Message: 6
            Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:10:51 -0500
            From: "Greg Manning" <a31ford@...>
            Subject: RE: Harold Bate


            Greetings All !!!

            I hate to say this, because he looks like me.... But I think he might be a
            quack...

            Greg

            -----Original Message-----
            From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
            Of kf4tap
            Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:01 PM
            To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [WoodGas] Harold Bate


            I'm beginning to think he did not exist, I've contacted aquantences
            in the UK. Also slogged through the Ministry department of records
            thou they don't back that far. Perhaps there may be someone on the
            list in the UK to correct me.

            Keith.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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          • keith ford
            Yes we are all familiar now with this article, perchance did you purchase one of his kits? I m running a search of newspapers in Devon now and nothing is
            Message 5 of 27 , Oct 4, 2005
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              Yes we are all familiar now with this article, perchance did you purchase one of his kits? I'm running a search of newspapers in Devon now and nothing is turning up. Keith

              "Koopmans, Auke" <koopmans@...> wrote:http://www.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/batesmethane.htm
              Mother Earth News Issue # 8 - March 1971




              DISCLAIMER
              This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SNV. SNV accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • Hakan Falk
              Keith, He was 62 years old 19969, when the first article was written. He is 98 years old now, if he is still alive. I think that he stopped with any business
              Message 6 of 27 , Oct 4, 2005
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                Keith,

                He was 62 years old 19969, when the first article was written. He is
                98 years old now, if he is still alive.

                I think that he stopped with any business 20 to 25 years ago and
                likely nobody continued, because then we would probably have heard about it.

                Hakan

                At 07:12 05/10/2005, you wrote:
                >Yes we are all familiar now with this article, perchance did you
                >purchase one of his kits? I'm running a search of newspapers in
                >Devon now and nothing is turning up. Keith
                >
                >"Koopmans, Auke" <koopmans@...>
                >wrote:<http://www.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/batesmethane.htm>http://www.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/batesmethane.htm
                >Mother Earth News Issue # 8 - March 1971
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >DISCLAIMER
                >This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
                >intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
                >are addressed. Any views or opinions presented in this email are
                >solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of
                >SNV. SNV accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus
                >transmitted by this email.
                >
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              • Richard Stanley
                Gregl. Egads are we dating ourselves or what. I was just starting out with an appropriate tech project in Uhuru na Kazi Tanzania when Steward Brand and
                Message 7 of 27 , Oct 4, 2005
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                  Gregl.

                  Egads are we dating ourselves or what.

                  I was just starting out with an appropriate tech project in 'Uhuru na
                  Kazi' Tanzania when Steward Brand and cohorts began the Whole Earth
                  Catalogue in teh San Francisco bay area, California. In fact their
                  sponsors, the Portola Institute, provided the admin shell for our
                  operations.

                  Am eager to see what details you have We all are in fact. I think a
                  quack is a fatigued genius before his time--or well after it.
                  Richard Stanley


                  >
                  >
                • Greg Manning
                  LMAO !! OK, I ll agree that the lot of us are in some way, genius s (I m patting ALL of us on the back here), and I ll also agree that many times I ve been
                  Message 8 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                    LMAO !!

                    OK, I'll agree that "the lot of us" are in some way, "genius's" (I'm
                    patting ALL of us on the back here), and I'll also agree that many times
                    I've been told "your way ahead of your time" (mind you I could be so far
                    back in the pack, I only think I'm in first place) but what ever the case, I
                    will peruse, as I am a firm believer that what I'm doing will benefit not
                    only myself, but much of humanity, as we are weaned off of fossil fuels...

                    Greg Manning,

                    Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                    Richard Stanley
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:54 AM
                    To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Harold Bate....Yes, he did exist.


                    Gregl.

                    Egads are we dating ourselves or what.

                    I was just starting out with an appropriate tech project in 'Uhuru na
                    Kazi' Tanzania when Steward Brand and cohorts began the Whole Earth
                    Catalogue in teh San Francisco bay area, California. In fact their
                    sponsors, the Portola Institute, provided the admin shell for our
                    operations.

                    Am eager to see what details you have We all are in fact. I think a
                    quack is a fatigued genius before his time--or well after it.
                    Richard Stanley


                    >
                    >




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                  • Mark S.
                    Bates wasn t the only one MEN wrote about. I ve scanned through a series of articles reprinted in the MEN Handbook of homemade power, and don t see any
                    Message 9 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                      Bates wasn't the only one MEN wrote about. I've scanned through a
                      series of articles reprinted in the MEN Handbook of homemade power,
                      and don't see any reference to problems with CO2. Are we sure that CO2
                      is a major constituent of methane gas?

                      Just thinking aloud, CO2 would be much heavier than CH4 (about four
                      times heavier) ... so if you tapped off at the top of an undisturbed
                      tank shouldn't you mostly get the lighter gas?

                      MEN only mentions compression as a problem in terms of usage with
                      automobiles. Their final comment on usage in automobiles -- the last
                      words of the last article of the book, somewhat poignantly says:

                      "If this all sounds like something of a drag ... welll, we're sorry
                      about that. The alternative may well be no driving at all (or motoring
                      down the highway on gasoline that costs better than $1.00 a gallon)."


                      --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Manning" <a31ford@i...> wrote:
                      >
                      > LMAO !!
                      >
                      > OK, I'll agree that "the lot of us" are in some way, "genius's" (I'm
                      > patting ALL of us on the back here), and I'll also agree that many times
                      > I've been told "your way ahead of your time" (mind you I could be so far
                      > back in the pack, I only think I'm in first place) but what ever the
                      case, I
                      > will peruse, as I am a firm believer that what I'm doing will
                      benefit not
                      > only myself, but much of humanity, as we are weaned off of fossil
                      fuels...
                      >
                      > Greg Manning,
                      >
                      > Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com]On
                      Behalf Of
                      > Richard Stanley
                      > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:54 AM
                      > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Harold Bate....Yes, he did exist.
                      >
                      >
                      > Gregl.
                      >
                      > Egads are we dating ourselves or what.
                      >
                      > I was just starting out with an appropriate tech project in 'Uhuru na
                      > Kazi' Tanzania when Steward Brand and cohorts began the Whole Earth
                      > Catalogue in teh San Francisco bay area, California. In fact their
                      > sponsors, the Portola Institute, provided the admin shell for our
                      > operations.
                      >
                      > Am eager to see what details you have We all are in fact. I think a
                      > quack is a fatigued genius before his time--or well after it.
                      > Richard Stanley
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      10/3/2005
                    • Matthew Tinker
                      The fact that methane gas is difficult to compress means that it will work as diesel engine fuel. Gasses are invisdible liquids. Matthew ...
                      Message 10 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                        The fact that methane gas is difficult to compress
                        means that it will work as diesel engine fuel. Gasses
                        are invisdible liquids.

                        Matthew





                        --- Hakan Falk <hakan@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > Ron,
                        >
                        > I read the article and cannot remember that diesel
                        > was mentioned, I
                        > got the impression that it was a gas engine. Also, I
                        > my memory do not
                        > fail too much, Hillman did not have a model with
                        > diesel engine at
                        > that time 30 years ago and especially since they
                        > talk about carburetor.
                        >
                        > Hakan
                        >
                        >
                        > At 18:37 04/10/2005, you wrote:
                        > >Hi All,
                        > >Harold Bate did exist, and Whole Earth Catalog
                        > and/or Mother Earth News had
                        > >his ad in about 1969. He was converting chicken
                        > manure to engine
                        > >fuel, and, if
                        > >my memory serves, running a diesel engine on it.
                        > As I was just learning
                        > >about the joys of the diesel automobile, having
                        > acquired a Mercedes
                        > >190 Dc, I was
                        > >interested in Bate's work.
                        > ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >






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                      • GuyW
                        I don t follow your thought process... -Guy-
                        Message 11 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                          I don't follow your thought process...

                          -Guy-

                          > The fact that methane gas is difficult to compress
                          > means that it will work as diesel engine fuel. Gasses
                          > are invisdible liquids.
                          >
                          > Matthew
                        • keith ford
                          A deisel will run off producer gas, so trying to think logically, ( don t tell the Army ) a deisel would run off methane. Start on oil turn off the rail pump
                          Message 12 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                            A deisel will run off producer gas, so trying to think logically, ( don't tell the Army ) a deisel would run off methane. Start on oil turn off the rail pump and run on methane. this is the same procedure done with producer gas. And with using a deisel on producer gas thier is not the lost of power as with a gas burner.

                            I have a reference from the London Times 1977 where Harold Bate had is truck at an enery show. Still nothing from Devon County.

                            Keith

                            maytagtwin@... wrote:
                            Hi All,
                            Harold Bate did exist, and Whole Earth Catalog and/or Mother Earth News had
                            his ad in about 1969. He was converting chicken manure to engine fuel, and, if
                            my memory serves, running a diesel engine on it. As I was just learning
                            about the joys of the diesel automobile, having acquired a Mercedes 190 Dc, I was
                            interested in Bate's work.

                            He offered plans and some hardware. I bit, and sent him a money order. In
                            return, he sent plans for building a digester, suggestions for high compression
                            gas storage, and, a propane regulator. I was never able to make any use of
                            it but I didn't feel that he had misled me as I didn't try his plans. The cost
                            of all that he sent was modest, perhaps $30.

                            So, I am of the opinion he did exist, and even may have been running his
                            diesel on chicken manure. I can't call him a quack. A visionary, perhaps. Is
                            there a difference?

                            Regards,
                            Ron Carroll
                            PS: If you folks haven't run across an old copy of Whole Earth Catalog, you
                            should. It was good for many an evening of dreaming and salivating. One of
                            my favorites in there was CECOCO, a Japanese firm offering machines for small
                            village technology. They had some rototillers running on diesel that I would
                            have loved to own.




                            In a message dated 10/4/2005 5:38:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                            WoodGas@yahoogroups.com writes:
                            Message: 6
                            Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:10:51 -0500
                            From: "Greg Manning" <a31ford@...>
                            Subject: RE: Harold Bate


                            Greetings All !!!

                            I hate to say this, because he looks like me.... But I think he might be a
                            quack...

                            Greg

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                            Of kf4tap
                            Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:01 PM
                            To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [WoodGas] Harold Bate


                            I'm beginning to think he did not exist, I've contacted aquantences
                            in the UK. Also slogged through the Ministry department of records
                            thou they don't back that far. Perhaps there may be someone on the
                            list in the UK to correct me.

                            Keith.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                          • Hakan Falk
                            Matthew, I did not say that methane would not work fine in diesel, I said that in Bate s Hillman was an gasoline engine, what he had in the truck is not
                            Message 13 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                              Matthew,

                              I did not say that methane would not work fine in diesel, I said that
                              in Bate's Hillman was an gasoline engine, what he had in the truck
                              is not mentioned. It is quite possible that he used it in both gasoline
                              and diesel engines, for sure in one gasoline engine.

                              Hakan


                              At 20:34 05/10/2005, you wrote:
                              >The fact that methane gas is difficult to compress
                              >means that it will work as diesel engine fuel. Gasses
                              >are invisdible liquids.
                              >
                              >Matthew
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >--- Hakan Falk <hakan@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Ron,
                              > >
                              > > I read the article and cannot remember that diesel
                              > > was mentioned, I
                              > > got the impression that it was a gas engine. Also, I
                              > > my memory do not
                              > > fail too much, Hillman did not have a model with
                              > > diesel engine at
                              > > that time 30 years ago and especially since they
                              > > talk about carburetor.
                              > >
                              > > Hakan
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > At 18:37 04/10/2005, you wrote:
                              > > >Hi All,
                              > > >Harold Bate did exist, and Whole Earth Catalog
                              > > and/or Mother Earth News had
                              > > >his ad in about 1969. He was converting chicken
                              > > manure to engine
                              > > >fuel, and, if
                              > > >my memory serves, running a diesel engine on it.
                              > > As I was just learning
                              > > >about the joys of the diesel automobile, having
                              > > acquired a Mercedes
                              > > >190 Dc, I was
                              > > >interested in Bate's work.
                              > > ><snip>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • keith ford
                              Co2 is a componet of producer gas, yes? At this point i ve gather info from all sorts of places sat and ran calculations and probabilties. So at this point I
                              Message 14 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                Co2 is a componet of producer gas, yes?

                                At this point i've gather info from all sorts of places sat and ran calculations and probabilties. So at this point I proven to myself that it is worth an attempt to try. I posted a "wish list" on the local Freecycle and have been offered a large portioned of the supply's and material. Here there are chicken houses all over the place. Some family menbers own some, so i've access to all the crap i can handle. pun intended. When as i put together the system i'll take pic's and notes to share with any one who may be interested.

                                Keith

                                "Mark S." <throaway@...> wrote:
                                Bates wasn't the only one MEN wrote about. I've scanned through a
                                series of articles reprinted in the MEN Handbook of homemade power,
                                and don't see any reference to problems with CO2. Are we sure that CO2
                                is a major constituent of methane gas?

                                Just thinking aloud, CO2 would be much heavier than CH4 (about four
                                times heavier) ... so if you tapped off at the top of an undisturbed
                                tank shouldn't you mostly get the lighter gas?

                                MEN only mentions compression as a problem in terms of usage with
                                automobiles. Their final comment on usage in automobiles -- the last
                                words of the last article of the book, somewhat poignantly says:

                                "If this all sounds like something of a drag ... welll, we're sorry
                                about that. The alternative may well be no driving at all (or motoring
                                down the highway on gasoline that costs better than $1.00 a gallon)."


                                --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Manning" <a31ford@i...> wrote:
                                >
                                > LMAO !!
                                >
                                > OK, I'll agree that "the lot of us" are in some way, "genius's" (I'm
                                > patting ALL of us on the back here), and I'll also agree that many times
                                > I've been told "your way ahead of your time" (mind you I could be so far
                                > back in the pack, I only think I'm in first place) but what ever the
                                case, I
                                > will peruse, as I am a firm believer that what I'm doing will
                                benefit not
                                > only myself, but much of humanity, as we are weaned off of fossil
                                fuels...
                                >
                                > Greg Manning,
                                >
                                > Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com]On
                                Behalf Of
                                > Richard Stanley
                                > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:54 AM
                                > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Harold Bate....Yes, he did exist.
                                >
                                >
                                > Gregl.
                                >
                                > Egads are we dating ourselves or what.
                                >
                                > I was just starting out with an appropriate tech project in 'Uhuru na
                                > Kazi' Tanzania when Steward Brand and cohorts began the Whole Earth
                                > Catalogue in teh San Francisco bay area, California. In fact their
                                > sponsors, the Portola Institute, provided the admin shell for our
                                > operations.
                                >
                                > Am eager to see what details you have We all are in fact. I think a
                                > quack is a fatigued genius before his time--or well after it.
                                > Richard Stanley
                                >
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date:
                                10/3/2005
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                                10/3/2005




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                              • Larry &Wendy Richards
                                I remember something about methane well not ignite at compression ratios 23to 1 that a spark is need . john Frye ran a 13hp slow running diesel number years
                                Message 15 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                  I remember something about methane well not ignite at compression ratios
                                  23to 1
                                  that a spark is need . john Frye ran a 13hp slow running diesel number years
                                  from his pig farm pump water and elect . The left over slurry was very rich in
                                  nitrogen like 7%.which was important .I have book or two in the paper file on
                                  this was like 1974 at that time my father was dairy farmer
                                  I made a small 1gallon and it did work. if any interest in this I could
                                  dig it out not sure who it by.
                                  Larry Richards





                                  At 11:43 AM 10/5/05 -0700, you wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I don't follow your thought process...
                                  >
                                  > -Guy-
                                  >
                                  > > The fact that methane gas is difficult to compress
                                  > > means that it will work as diesel engine fuel. Gasses
                                  > > are invisdible liquids.
                                  > >
                                  > > Matthew
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > SPONSORED LINKS
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Hakan Falk
                                  I still have some information PDF files on my site about bagdigesters, http://energysavingnow.com/bagdigesters/ Hakan
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                    I still have some information PDF files on my site about bagdigesters,

                                    http://energysavingnow.com/bagdigesters/

                                    Hakan

                                    At 05:06 06/10/2005, you wrote:
                                    >I remember something about methane well not ignite at compression ratios
                                    >23to 1
                                    >that a spark is need . john Frye ran a 13hp slow running diesel number years
                                    >from his pig farm pump water and elect . The left over slurry was very rich in
                                    >nitrogen like 7%.which was important .I have book or two in the paper file on
                                    >this was like 1974 at that time my father was dairy farmer
                                    > I made a small 1gallon and it did work. if any interest in this I could
                                    >dig it out not sure who it by.
                                    >Larry Richards
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >At 11:43 AM 10/5/05 -0700, you wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I don't follow your thought process...
                                    > >
                                    > > -Guy-
                                    > >
                                    > > > The fact that methane gas is difficult to compress
                                    > > > means that it will work as diesel engine fuel. Gasses
                                    > > > are invisdible liquids.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Matthew
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > <<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Energy+healing&w1=Energy+healing&w2=N>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Energy+healing&w1=Energy+healing&w2=N
                                    > > atural+gas&w3=Save+energy&w4=Science+kits&w5=Science+education&w6=Alternat
                                    > > ive+energyç=6ß=119>.sig=EVfZF7Qt0yKmJkb6pBxm5w>Energy healing
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > <<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Natural+gas&w1=Energy+healing&w2=Natu>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Natural+gas&w1=Energy+healing&w2=Natu
                                    > > ral+gas&w3=Save+energy&w4=Science+kits&w5=Science+education&w6=Alternative
                                    > > +energyç=6ß=119>.sig=S7Mu4Yjp3PT1VXX6FqOF1Q>Natural gas
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                                    > > ral+gas&w3=Save+energy&w4=Science+kits&w5=Science+education&w6=Alternative
                                    > > +energyç=6ß=119>.sig=GF8cNZ_Ns9unsrENwSPDMg>Save energy
                                    > >
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                                    > <<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+kits&w1=Energy+healing&w2=Nat>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+kits&w1=Energy+healing&w2=Nat
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                                    > <<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+education&w1=Energy+healing&w>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+education&w1=Energy+healing&w
                                    > > 2=Natural+gas&w3=Save+energy&w4=Science+kits&w5=Science+education&w6=Alter
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                                    > > w2=Natural+gas&w3=Save+energy&w4=Science+kits&w5=Science+education&w6=Alte
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                                  • Matthew Tinker
                                    I don t remember where I heard about running diesel engines on methane. Compressing the gas to store it is difficult. The fact that it is hard to compress
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I don't remember where I heard about running diesel
                                      engines on methane. Compressing the gas to store it is
                                      difficult. The fact that it is hard to compress means
                                      that unlike air (I know that diesels won't run on
                                      air!) that compresses in the injector lines, failing
                                      to "lift" the injector, the methane gas will inject
                                      like diesel fuel. I have no personal experience of
                                      running diesel engines on methane.

                                      Matthew



                                      --- GuyW <guyiii@...> wrote:

                                      > I don't follow your thought process...
                                      >
                                      > -Guy-
                                      >
                                      > > The fact that methane gas is difficult to compress
                                      > > means that it will work as diesel engine fuel.
                                      > Gasses
                                      > > are invisdible liquids.
                                      > >
                                      > > Matthew
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >




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                                    • maytagtwin@aol.com
                                      Hi Matthew, While it is true that diesel engines receive fuel through the means of high pressure spray timed to start the burn at an appropriate point near the
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Oct 7, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Matthew,
                                        While it is true that diesel engines receive fuel through the means of high
                                        pressure spray timed to start the burn at an appropriate point near the end of
                                        the compression stroke, they can also run on fuel that enters with the
                                        incoming air flow.

                                        For instance, if your diesel pickup is near a propane or natural gas leak of
                                        any consequence, you best shut it down before it can pick up some of that gas
                                        and use it as fuel. If you don't, your risk is not only that of possibly
                                        igniting the leaking gas, but also that of seeing your engine run wild and
                                        possibly damage itself as it is running ungoverned.

                                        While I have never experience the gas leak situation, I have, on several
                                        occasions, had a VW diesel run wild, using its own crankcase blowby which has
                                        considerable motor oil in mist with it, as fuel. This blowby was available to
                                        burn because the engine design has fumes from the crankcase piped back to the
                                        intake manifold. To those that have never experienced this, it is quite a ride.
                                        To achieve it, you take a well worn VW diesel and run it down the interstate
                                        at, say, 65-70 mph for a few miles. When everything is in place, you will
                                        feel a surge of power and acceleration and, if you look in your mirror, you'll
                                        see a cloud of smoke which will be causing other drivers to head for the
                                        shoulders. You can try turning off the engine, but, that has no effect, and you are
                                        still gaining speed. The only safe way is to hit the brakes hard, and pull
                                        the speed down to, say 30 mph or so, all without touching the clutch or
                                        disengaging the engine in any way. If you do hit the clutch, the engine can then
                                        overrev and break. Once the engine slows, the blowby is reduced and the episode
                                        is over and it drives normally.

                                        VW aftermarket kits were available which allowed the mists coming off the
                                        crankcase to condense before being recirculated back through the air intake. I
                                        installed one and it worked. The proper fix would have been an engine
                                        overhaul, but, that seemed too much $.

                                        So, I think if I wanted to burn methane in a diesel engine, I would put an
                                        adjustable valve for the methane in the diesel air intake, and either start and
                                        warm on regular diesel, then begin methane flow while shutting down the diesel
                                        flow, or, start directly on methane, whichever works better. Due to the
                                        difficulty of governing, I think this would work best if the engine is doing a
                                        steady job, such as pumping water.

                                        Ron


                                        In a message dated 10/7/2005 5:01:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                        WoodGas@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                        Message: 1
                                        Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 21:01:59 +0100 (BST)
                                        From: Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...>
                                        Subject: Re: Harold Bate....Yes, he did exist.

                                        I don't remember where I heard about running diesel
                                        engines on methane. Compressing the gas to store it is
                                        difficult. The fact that it is hard to compress means
                                        that unlike air (I know that diesels won't run on
                                        air!) that compresses in the injector lines, failing
                                        to "lift" the injector, the methane gas will inject
                                        like diesel fuel. I have no personal experience of
                                        running diesel engines on methane.

                                        Matthew


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Matthew Tinker
                                        Why go to the trouble of making an additional gas injection system? There s no reason to stop you starting on diesel and changing over to methane like a veggie
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Oct 7, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Why go to the trouble of making an additional gas
                                          injection system? There's no reason to stop you
                                          starting on diesel and changing over to methane like a
                                          veggie fuel diesel. I suspect that running the methane
                                          through the injector pump should work. The pre-heat
                                          time may need to be lengthened The only danger would
                                          seem to me to be injector pump lubrication, whether
                                          you run the gas through the inlet manifold or through
                                          the pump, there's a real risk of pump wear. Diesel oil
                                          has a wax additive for pump lubrication.


                                          Matthew



                                          --- maytagtwin@... wrote:

                                          > Hi Matthew,
                                          > While it is true that diesel engines receive fuel
                                          > through the means of high
                                          > pressure spray timed to start the burn at an
                                          > appropriate point near the end of
                                          > the compression stroke, they can also run on fuel
                                          > that enters with the
                                          > incoming air flow.
                                          >
                                          > For instance, if your diesel pickup is near a
                                          > propane or natural gas leak of
                                          > any consequence, you best shut it down before it can
                                          > pick up some of that gas
                                          > and use it as fuel. If you don't, your risk is not
                                          > only that of possibly
                                          > igniting the leaking gas, but also that of seeing
                                          > your engine run wild and
                                          > possibly damage itself as it is running ungoverned.
                                          >
                                          > While I have never experience the gas leak
                                          > situation, I have, on several
                                          > occasions, had a VW diesel run wild, using its own
                                          > crankcase blowby which has
                                          > considerable motor oil in mist with it, as fuel.
                                          > This blowby was available to
                                          > burn because the engine design has fumes from the
                                          > crankcase piped back to the
                                          > intake manifold. To those that have never
                                          > experienced this, it is quite a ride.
                                          > To achieve it, you take a well worn VW diesel and
                                          > run it down the interstate
                                          > at, say, 65-70 mph for a few miles. When everything
                                          > is in place, you will
                                          > feel a surge of power and acceleration and, if you
                                          > look in your mirror, you'll
                                          > see a cloud of smoke which will be causing other
                                          > drivers to head for the
                                          > shoulders. You can try turning off the engine, but,
                                          > that has no effect, and you are
                                          > still gaining speed. The only safe way is to hit
                                          > the brakes hard, and pull
                                          > the speed down to, say 30 mph or so, all without
                                          > touching the clutch or
                                          > disengaging the engine in any way. If you do hit
                                          > the clutch, the engine can then
                                          > overrev and break. Once the engine slows, the
                                          > blowby is reduced and the episode
                                          > is over and it drives normally.
                                          >
                                          > VW aftermarket kits were available which allowed the
                                          > mists coming off the
                                          > crankcase to condense before being recirculated back
                                          > through the air intake. I
                                          > installed one and it worked. The proper fix would
                                          > have been an engine
                                          > overhaul, but, that seemed too much $.
                                          >
                                          > So, I think if I wanted to burn methane in a diesel
                                          > engine, I would put an
                                          > adjustable valve for the methane in the diesel air
                                          > intake, and either start and
                                          > warm on regular diesel, then begin methane flow
                                          > while shutting down the diesel
                                          > flow, or, start directly on methane, whichever works
                                          > better. Due to the
                                          > difficulty of governing, I think this would work
                                          > best if the engine is doing a
                                          > steady job, such as pumping water.
                                          >
                                          > Ron
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > In a message dated 10/7/2005 5:01:14 AM Eastern
                                          > Daylight Time,
                                          > WoodGas@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                          > Message: 1
                                          > Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 21:01:59 +0100 (BST)
                                          > From: Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...>
                                          > Subject: Re: Harold Bate....Yes, he did exist.
                                          >
                                          > I don't remember where I heard about running diesel
                                          > engines on methane. Compressing the gas to store it
                                          > is
                                          > difficult. The fact that it is hard to compress
                                          > means
                                          > that unlike air (I know that diesels won't run on
                                          > air!) that compresses in the injector lines, failing
                                          > to "lift" the injector, the methane gas will inject
                                          > like diesel fuel. I have no personal experience of
                                          > running diesel engines on methane.
                                          >
                                          > Matthew
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                          > removed]
                                          >
                                          >




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                                        • keith ford
                                          The old gas producers would start on deisel then feed the gas through the air intake. Or at least thats my understanding from reasearch and reading. Matthew
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Oct 7, 2005
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                                            The old gas producers would start on deisel then feed the gas through the air intake. Or at least thats my understanding from reasearch and reading.

                                            Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...> wrote:Why go to the trouble of making an additional gas
                                            injection system? There's no reason to stop you
                                            starting on diesel and changing over to methane like a
                                            veggie fuel diesel. I suspect that running the methane
                                            through the injector pump should work. The pre-heat
                                            time may need to be lengthened The only danger would
                                            seem to me to be injector pump lubrication, whether
                                            you run the gas through the inlet manifold or through
                                            the pump, there's a real risk of pump wear. Diesel oil
                                            has a wax additive for pump lubrication.


                                            Matthew



                                            --- maytagtwin@... wrote:

                                            > Hi Matthew,
                                            > While it is true that diesel engines receive fuel
                                            > through the means of high
                                            > pressure spray timed to start the burn at an
                                            > appropriate point near the end of
                                            > the compression stroke, they can also run on fuel
                                            > that enters with the
                                            > incoming air flow.
                                            >
                                            > For instance, if your diesel pickup is near a
                                            > propane or natural gas leak of
                                            > any consequence, you best shut it down before it can
                                            > pick up some of that gas
                                            > and use it as fuel. If you don't, your risk is not
                                            > only that of possibly
                                            > igniting the leaking gas, but also that of seeing
                                            > your engine run wild and
                                            > possibly damage itself as it is running ungoverned.
                                            >
                                            > While I have never experience the gas leak
                                            > situation, I have, on several
                                            > occasions, had a VW diesel run wild, using its own
                                            > crankcase blowby which has
                                            > considerable motor oil in mist with it, as fuel.
                                            > This blowby was available to
                                            > burn because the engine design has fumes from the
                                            > crankcase piped back to the
                                            > intake manifold. To those that have never
                                            > experienced this, it is quite a ride.
                                            > To achieve it, you take a well worn VW diesel and
                                            > run it down the interstate
                                            > at, say, 65-70 mph for a few miles. When everything
                                            > is in place, you will
                                            > feel a surge of power and acceleration and, if you
                                            > look in your mirror, you'll
                                            > see a cloud of smoke which will be causing other
                                            > drivers to head for the
                                            > shoulders. You can try turning off the engine, but,
                                            > that has no effect, and you are
                                            > still gaining speed. The only safe way is to hit
                                            > the brakes hard, and pull
                                            > the speed down to, say 30 mph or so, all without
                                            > touching the clutch or
                                            > disengaging the engine in any way. If you do hit
                                            > the clutch, the engine can then
                                            > overrev and break. Once the engine slows, the
                                            > blowby is reduced and the episode
                                            > is over and it drives normally.
                                            >
                                            > VW aftermarket kits were available which allowed the
                                            > mists coming off the
                                            > crankcase to condense before being recirculated back
                                            > through the air intake. I
                                            > installed one and it worked. The proper fix would
                                            > have been an engine
                                            > overhaul, but, that seemed too much $.
                                            >
                                            > So, I think if I wanted to burn methane in a diesel
                                            > engine, I would put an
                                            > adjustable valve for the methane in the diesel air
                                            > intake, and either start and
                                            > warm on regular diesel, then begin methane flow
                                            > while shutting down the diesel
                                            > flow, or, start directly on methane, whichever works
                                            > better. Due to the
                                            > difficulty of governing, I think this would work
                                            > best if the engine is doing a
                                            > steady job, such as pumping water.
                                            >
                                            > Ron
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > In a message dated 10/7/2005 5:01:14 AM Eastern
                                            > Daylight Time,
                                            > WoodGas@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                            > Message: 1
                                            > Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 21:01:59 +0100 (BST)
                                            > From: Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...>
                                            > Subject: Re: Harold Bate....Yes, he did exist.
                                            >
                                            > I don't remember where I heard about running diesel
                                            > engines on methane. Compressing the gas to store it
                                            > is
                                            > difficult. The fact that it is hard to compress
                                            > means
                                            > that unlike air (I know that diesels won't run on
                                            > air!) that compresses in the injector lines, failing
                                            > to "lift" the injector, the methane gas will inject
                                            > like diesel fuel. I have no personal experience of
                                            > running diesel engines on methane.
                                            >
                                            > Matthew
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                            > removed]
                                            >
                                            >




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                                          • William Carr
                                            ... Isn t the injector pump designed for fluid? Running it dry to allow methane to flow through it could be bad. What if the diesel fuel lubricates and cools
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Oct 7, 2005
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                                              On Oct 7, 2005, at 2:28 PM, keith ford wrote:

                                              > The old gas producers would start on deisel then feed the gas
                                              > through the air intake. Or at least thats my understanding from
                                              > reasearch and reading.
                                              >
                                              > Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...> wrote:Why go to the trouble of
                                              > making an additional gas
                                              > injection system? There's no reason to stop you
                                              > starting on diesel and changing over to methane like a
                                              > veggie fuel diesel. I suspect that running the methane
                                              > through the injector pump should work.


                                              Isn't the injector pump designed for fluid? Running it dry to allow
                                              methane to flow through it could be bad.

                                              What if the diesel fuel lubricates and cools the injector? Methane
                                              isn't going to do that.

                                              Blowing the methane in via the air intake seems safer.
                                            • keith ford
                                              The understanding i have is that when the deisel started and was running on oil you feed the gas through the air intake and turn off the fuel to the injectors.
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Oct 7, 2005
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                                                The understanding i have is that when the deisel started and was running on oil you feed the gas through the air intake and turn off the fuel to the injectors. Wirh this in mind i went to look at a deisel ford tractor. there is a rail pump to turn off fuel to the injector rail. Start the gas turn off the oil and run off gas. Then when you done turn off the gas.

                                                Keith

                                                William Carr <Jkirk3279@...> wrote:

                                                On Oct 7, 2005, at 2:28 PM, keith ford wrote:

                                                > The old gas producers would start on deisel then feed the gas
                                                > through the air intake. Or at least thats my understanding from
                                                > reasearch and reading.
                                                >
                                                > Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...> wrote:Why go to the trouble of
                                                > making an additional gas
                                                > injection system? There's no reason to stop you
                                                > starting on diesel and changing over to methane like a
                                                > veggie fuel diesel. I suspect that running the methane
                                                > through the injector pump should work.


                                                Isn't the injector pump designed for fluid? Running it dry to allow
                                                methane to flow through it could be bad.

                                                What if the diesel fuel lubricates and cools the injector? Methane
                                                isn't going to do that.

                                                Blowing the methane in via the air intake seems safer.











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                                              • Matthew Tinker
                                                I don t remember which post it was, but I said the same thing about the methane and the injector pump. I don t think that overheating the pump is a problem,
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Oct 8, 2005
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                                                  I don't remember which post it was, but I said the
                                                  same thing about the methane and the injector pump. I
                                                  don't think that overheating the pump is a problem,
                                                  methane should cool it. An old in-line pump would
                                                  probably work better than a modern rotary pump, the
                                                  in-line pumps had pressure lubrication. Gasses are
                                                  invisible liquids, i don't know how viscous methane
                                                  is! Anyone out there who knows about gasses!

                                                  Matthew


                                                  >
                                                  > Isn't the injector pump designed for fluid?
                                                  > Running it dry to allow
                                                  > methane to flow through it could be bad.
                                                  >
                                                  > What if the diesel fuel lubricates and cools the
                                                  > injector? Methane
                                                  > isn't going to do that.
                                                  >
                                                  > Blowing the methane in via the air intake seems
                                                  > safer.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >




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                                                • Brenda Lux
                                                  ... OK, waht is a greasecar? Although, it s looking like pigs, with 35 lbs of waste a day, would be even ... I have lots of dogs (some cats). How bout put a
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Oct 9, 2005
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                                                    On 10/4/05, Dee Dreslough <dee@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > interested in his work too..I drive a greasecar

                                                    OK, waht is a greasecar?

                                                    Although, it's looking like pigs, with 35 lbs of waste a day, would be even
                                                    > better. Put a tiger in
                                                    > your tank? Not quite...Put a porker in your tank. :)

                                                    I have lots of dogs (some cats). How bout "put a puppy in your tank?"
                                                    No doubt the PETA people would be aghast at such a thought.
                                                    Brenda

                                                    -Dee
                                                    > "Bwack!"
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                                                    >
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                                                    --
                                                    Brenda


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • keith ford
                                                    I think by grease car he means deisel. Puppy in the tank? That would be a novel way for the spca to power thier shelters. methane to fire the hot water
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Oct 9, 2005
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                                                      I think by grease car he means deisel. Puppy in the tank? That would be a novel way for the spca to power thier shelters. methane to fire the hot water heater!

                                                      The project here will use waste from the kids pets, 2 rabbits, 8 hens, 1 horse, and 1 dog. If it works as well as i have conservitaly i should be able to run the hot water heater, the gas stove, and a boiler for a small steam power generator. The whole system will take a while to build. But i will document it on my group page at recprocating steam engines at yahoogroups.

                                                      Keith

                                                      Brenda Lux <DLuxPets@...> wrote:
                                                      On 10/4/05, Dee Dreslough <dee@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > interested in his work too..I drive a greasecar

                                                      OK, waht is a greasecar?

                                                      Although, it's looking like pigs, with 35 lbs of waste a day, would be even
                                                      > better. Put a tiger in
                                                      > your tank? Not quite...Put a porker in your tank. :)

                                                      I have lots of dogs (some cats). How bout "put a puppy in your tank?"
                                                      No doubt the PETA people would be aghast at such a thought.
                                                      Brenda

                                                      -Dee
                                                      > "Bwack!"
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
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                                                      --
                                                      Brenda


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