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Re: [WoodGas] Oof! Induction Generators

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  • Bruce Jackson
    Here are more links http://users.telenet.be/b0y/content/links/tpimg.pdf  This was the wiring diagram I used originally.
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 27, 2009
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      Here are more links
      http://users.telenet.be/b0y/content/links/tpimg.pdf%c2%a0
      This was the wiring diagram I used originally.
      http://users.telenet.be/b0y/content/links.htm

      BPJ

      --- On Sat, 6/27/09, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...> wrote:


      From: Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...>
      Subject: [WoodGas] Oof! Induction Generators
      To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, June 27, 2009, 7:09 PM








      Whoops!
      I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time, since 2002. All my references are gone! Hats off to T. Houston for downloading PDFs. I, apparently have got to dig through seven years worth of printouts to find my schematics.
      Regardless,
       Its becoming apparent that most folks don't know what I am talking about so....
       
       Do this thought experiment. Imagine an AC induction motor like one that runs an air compressor. This motor is plugged in the wall and turning. Now imagine this motor belted up to an 8hp Briggs engine with a centrifigal belt clutch. Imagine starting the Briggs engine and bringing it up to the same rpm as the AC induction motor. As long as the pulley size is the same nothing happens if the two shafts are turning at the same rpm. Now increase the speed of the Briggs engine slightly and it begins to try and make the induction motor's rotor slip past its magnetic field. The field resists and instead of drawing power from the grid, the motor begins pumping power back into the grid. This is the principle of an induction generator.
       I use three phase induction motors when I build these generators because the three phase motors come in sizes up to around 50 hp in the 240 vac size. This is important because most of these motors have two legs per phase. Because of that you can pull out 120volt or 208 volt from a single leg.
       So if you find a 30hp three phase motor rated for 240 volts then each leg is good for roughly 8hp. Three phase motors come in a Delta or Y wiring scheme. To excite these motors and turn them into generators one has only to wire in a capacitor bank with a higher VAC rating then the motor ex. if the motor is 240vac, look for 370vac or 480vac capacitors. The capacitors are wired in parrallel with the motor.
       The jewel I found here is when wiring the capacitors, lay them on the ground in the shape that the motor is wired. So if you have a "Y", put three capacitors on the ground in a "Y" shape with their terminals lined up like the wiring diagram on the motor. Then its just plug in some wire. The visual shape keeps one from crossing the wires.
       To excite a fresh generator, simply stroke one of the capcitors with some jumper cables when the motor is being turned.  A light bulb hooked to another leg helps tell you when the motor has become a generator.
       The most I ever paid for a motor was $10 (a 480 vac 40hp) and the capacitors I use are ballast capacitors from those big lights.
       To size the capacitors, one needs a frequency meter, set the engine rpm so that the generator is turning at 60hrz then read the voltage. The higher the capacitance the higher the voltage. One sometimes has to parrallel and series the capacitors to get the right voltage with 60hrz.
      The fun thing about this is no more brown outs...you can have 120vac, not 110 or 107 like some of these REA outfits put out.
      The last generator I ran like this was right before I got drafted. We ran the house on one leg, the biodiesel processor heater on another leg and the water heater on the third leg.
       Since I scored the Kubota synchronus generator, the solar panels, and the 5000 watt inverters, I haven't had the need for the induction generators. I recommend them highly because they cost so very little to build and run. I paid $400 for a 22hp diesel engine that ran the house generator. An induction generator costs the least per watt of any source of electricity.
       Terry reminded me of those dark days when the power bill got over $1200 and they shut us off. After that it was all about the induction generator and our little 600 watt inverters. Desulfating dead car batteries and charging them on the back of a 6.2l powered Chevy one ton during trips to the bush for wood. We were broke but we came out swinging. The best part of it was being forced to live within our means. Also the time when lightning struck the substation in town and the grid went down and we didn't even know it.
       
       http://www.scribd com/doc/3198677/ 3-phase-motor- as-1-phase- generator- diagram.pdf
      I found this but its awfully complicated for a beginner.
      Maybe I can wire one up here and take a picture and post it. I already owe the group a bunch of other stuff already (tank cutter, Tabletop, etc.) So not sure when. Everything is on hold til I pour my driveway.
      Anyhow,
       I hope this answers some questions about this.
      BPJ

      --- On Sat, 6/27/09, pdmac@... <pdmac@...> wrote:

      From: pdmac@... <pdmac@...>
      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] cap and trade
      To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
      Date: Saturday, June 27, 2009, 4:16 PM

      On Jun 27, 2009, at 8:45 AM, Bruce Jackson wrote:

      > INDUCTION GENERATOR. Google that. Perhaps I still have some
      > literature on it. I built my first one seven years ago.

      Hi Bruce,

      Can you recommend a brand name? There are a lot of Chinese sets for
      sale, but I found I nice Northstar head at Northern Tool. Any idea
      who makes it?

      Paul

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mike LaRosa
      Hi Bruce, That was quite an informative lecture and over my head. I somewhat understand the stuff but when an old friend starts his 3 phase converter with his
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 27, 2009
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        Hi Bruce, That was quite an informative lecture and over my head. I somewhat understand the stuff but when an old friend starts his 3 phase converter with his foot I get just a bit lost, even though I somewhat underdstand it. I still remember my wife btchn at me about what was on TV a few years ago even though she was the only person in a several mile radius that had power to watch TV. Please send me specific directions to your place soon and rescue and wifey number. I'm scheduled pretty thick till then. The truck is ready and running great. I need to consolidate tools and get the right batch in it. I just have some harbor freight junk in it right now. Looking forward to swatting some of your bugs soon .. Mike L



        --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...> wrote:
        >
        > Whoops!
        > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time, since 2002. All my references are gone! Hats off to T. Houston for downloading PDFs. I, apparently have got to dig through seven years worth of printouts to find my schematics.
        > Regardless,
        > Its becoming apparent that most folks don't know what I am talking about so....
        >
        > Do this thought experiment. Imagine an AC induction motor like one that runs an air compressor. This motor is plugged in the wall and turning. Now imagine this motor belted up to an 8hp Briggs engine with a centrifigal belt clutch. Imagine starting the Briggs engine and bringing it up to the same rpm as the AC induction motor. As long as the pulley size is the same nothing happens if the two shafts are turning at the same rpm. Now increase the speed of the Briggs engine slightly and it begins to try and make the induction motor's rotor slip past its magnetic field. The field resists and instead of drawing power from the grid, the motor begins pumping power back into the grid. This is the principle of an induction generator.
        > I use three phase induction motors when I build these generators because the three phase motors come in sizes up to around 50 hp in the 240 vac size. This is important because most of these motors have two legs per phase. Because of that you can pull out 120volt or 208 volt from a single leg.
        > So if you find a 30hp three phase motor rated for 240 volts then each leg is good for roughly 8hp. Three phase motors come in a Delta or Y wiring scheme. To excite these motors and turn them into generators one has only to wire in a capacitor bank with a higher VAC rating then the motor ex. if the motor is 240vac, look for 370vac or 480vac capacitors. The capacitors are wired in parrallel with the motor.
        > The jewel I found here is when wiring the capacitors, lay them on the ground in the shape that the motor is wired. So if you have a "Y", put three capacitors on the ground in a "Y" shape with their terminals lined up like the wiring diagram on the motor. Then its just plug in some wire. The visual shape keeps one from crossing the wires.
        > To excite a fresh generator, simply stroke one of the capcitors with some jumper cables when the motor is being turned. A light bulb hooked to another leg helps tell you when the motor has become a generator.
        > The most I ever paid for a motor was $10 (a 480 vac 40hp) and the capacitors I use are ballast capacitors from those big lights.
        > To size the capacitors, one needs a frequency meter, set the engine rpm so that the generator is turning at 60hrz then read the voltage. The higher the capacitance the higher the voltage. One sometimes has to parrallel and series the capacitors to get the right voltage with 60hrz.
        > The fun thing about this is no more brown outs...you can have 120vac, not 110 or 107 like some of these REA outfits put out.
        > The last generator I ran like this was right before I got drafted. We ran the house on one leg, the biodiesel processor heater on another leg and the water heater on the third leg.
        > Since I scored the Kubota synchronus generator, the solar panels, and the 5000 watt inverters, I haven't had the need for the induction generators. I recommend them highly because they cost so very little to build and run. I paid $400 for a 22hp diesel engine that ran the house generator. An induction generator costs the least per watt of any source of electricity.
        > Terry reminded me of those dark days when the power bill got over $1200 and they shut us off. After that it was all about the induction generator and our little 600 watt inverters. Desulfating dead car batteries and charging them on the back of a 6.2l powered Chevy one ton during trips to the bush for wood. We were broke but we came out swinging. The best part of it was being forced to live within our means. Also the time when lightning struck the substation in town and the grid went down and we didn't even know it.
        >
        > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3198677/3-phase-motor-as-1-phase-generator-diagram.pdf
        > I found this but its awfully complicated for a beginner.
        > Maybe I can wire one up here and take a picture and post it. I already owe the group a bunch of other stuff already (tank cutter, Tabletop, etc.) So not sure when. Everything is on hold til I pour my driveway.
        > Anyhow,
        > I hope this answers some questions about this.
        > BPJ
        >
        > --- On Sat, 6/27/09, pdmac@... <pdmac@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: pdmac@... <pdmac@...>
        > Subject: Re: [WoodGas] cap and trade
        > To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Saturday, June 27, 2009, 4:16 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Jun 27, 2009, at 8:45 AM, Bruce Jackson wrote:
        >
        > > INDUCTION GENERATOR. Google that. Perhaps I still have some
        > > literature on it. I built my first one seven years ago.
        >
        > Hi Bruce,
        >
        > Can you recommend a brand name? There are a lot of Chinese sets for
        > sale, but I found I nice Northstar head at Northern Tool. Any idea
        > who makes it?
        >
        > Paul
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Dutch John
        ... Bruce, What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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          --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...> wrote:
          >
          > Whoops!
          > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time, since 2002.


          Bruce,

          What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor, how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce when only one phase and ground is used?

          I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

          Regards,
          DJ
        • Bruce Jackson
          DJ, From the hip, 1500/3 =500watts per leg then derate by %20 would give 400 watts.   Thats to say 400 watts per leg. I am not sure of how they do the 50hrz
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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            DJ,
            From the hip, 1500/3 =500watts per leg then derate by %20 would give 400 watts.
             
            Thats to say 400 watts per leg. I am not sure of how they do the 50hrz stuff. I tried to look at that while in Iraq. There, I never found motors that had hi/low voltage connections on each leg. They were all 240volt. I wanted to try 480 volts but never found the right motor.
             
            There is no substitute for just hooking these things up. They all act differently. The most that happens is that you draw too many amps and drain the capacitors. The generator simply stops producing power. For that, unhook the load, restrike the capacitors while spinning the motor and wella! Back in business.
             I ran into dilemmas when I tried using my Lincoln Buzz Box welder. Apparently the generators can't tolerate loads too close to their limits. I'd have to restrike the capacitors if I stuck the rod on the weldpiece.
             
            The real time saver would be a digital RPM meter so that the motors could be spinning at their rated rpm BEFORE the capacitors are hooked up. I have destroyed capacitors by making too much voltage and not knowing it, this by spinning the motors too fast.
             
            When I started using motors in the 30hp or better range, I had much greater sucess. Then I had enough potential power to handle surges from motor start ups, welding, and acts of stupidity.
             
             
            Things I'd like to buy because of induction generators....
            1. Frequency meter
            2. rpm meter
            3. Three phase 12volt battery charger
            3. Three phase AC welder
            4. Three phase water heater.
             
            My stationary producer cogen project includes a three phase motor, Continental Red Seal Six, and hydronic storage. We poured the pad for the gen house last summer and if things sort out right will have the engine mounted in the shack by this fall.
            Anyhow,
            Post the links to the literature that you found, I gotta download and either print the files or put it on disk. As this thing is probably the most boot strapable method for off gridders to get gobbs of power affordably.
            BPJ

            --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@...> wrote:


            From: Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@...>
            Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
            To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 10:36 AM








            --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups .com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > Whoops!
            > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time, since 2002.

            Bruce,

            What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor, how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce when only one phase and ground is used?

            I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

            Regards,
            DJ



















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kevin Chisholm
            Dear Bruce Some of the Lecric Wizards on the list can correct us, but I think that the power available from a single phase of a 3 phase motor is 1500/1.732 =
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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              Dear Bruce

              Some of the 'Lecric Wizards" on the list can correct us, but I think that the power available from a single phase of a 3 phase motor is
              1500/1.732 = 866 watts, where 1.732 is the square root of 3.

              If that is true, then if the three legs powered three loads in the single phase mode, the 3 phase 1500 watt generator could potentially deliver 3 x 866 = 2598 watts. However, this might be a bad move, in that generator cooling may be insufficient. With your estimate of 500 watts per leg, then the generator would not likely be in danger of overheating.

              I look forward to comments from the "Lecric Wizards."

              Best wishes,

              Kevin




              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Bruce Jackson
              To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 1:44 PM
              Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators





              DJ,
              From the hip, 1500/3 =500watts per leg then derate by %20 would give 400 watts.

              Thats to say 400 watts per leg. I am not sure of how they do the 50hrz stuff. I tried to look at that while in Iraq. There, I never found motors that had hi/low voltage connections on each leg. They were all 240volt. I wanted to try 480 volts but never found the right motor.

              There is no substitute for just hooking these things up. They all act differently. The most that happens is that you draw too many amps and drain the capacitors. The generator simply stops producing power. For that, unhook the load, restrike the capacitors while spinning the motor and wella! Back in business.
              I ran into dilemmas when I tried using my Lincoln Buzz Box welder. Apparently the generators can't tolerate loads too close to their limits. I'd have to restrike the capacitors if I stuck the rod on the weldpiece.

              The real time saver would be a digital RPM meter so that the motors could be spinning at their rated rpm BEFORE the capacitors are hooked up. I have destroyed capacitors by making too much voltage and not knowing it, this by spinning the motors too fast.

              When I started using motors in the 30hp or better range, I had much greater sucess. Then I had enough potential power to handle surges from motor start ups, welding, and acts of stupidity.


              Things I'd like to buy because of induction generators....
              1. Frequency meter
              2. rpm meter
              3. Three phase 12volt battery charger
              3. Three phase AC welder
              4. Three phase water heater.

              My stationary producer cogen project includes a three phase motor, Continental Red Seal Six, and hydronic storage. We poured the pad for the gen house last summer and if things sort out right will have the engine mounted in the shack by this fall.
              Anyhow,
              Post the links to the literature that you found, I gotta download and either print the files or put it on disk. As this thing is probably the most boot strapable method for off gridders to get gobbs of power affordably.
              BPJ

              --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@...> wrote:

              From: Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@...>
              Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
              To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 10:36 AM

              --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups .com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Whoops!
              > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time, since 2002.

              Bruce,

              What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor, how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce when only one phase and ground is used?

              I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

              Regards,
              DJ

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Natural Treasures Massage Products
              DJ There is a book Induction Motors as Generators that I got (very skinny book). By connecting some run capacitors across two legs in a 1C,2C pattern one
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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                DJ

                There is a book 'Induction Motors as Generators' that I got (very skinny book). By connecting some run capacitors across two legs in a 1C,2C pattern one can get the phases to line up and get full power out of a three phase induction motor. The Yahoo group - microhydro - has a lot of info on this.

                David Green
                "Rootless half diminished"
                "A voicing that resolves two ways"

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Dutch John
                To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 7:36 AM
                Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators





                --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...> wrote:
                >
                > Whoops!
                > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time, since 2002.

                Bruce,

                What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor, how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce when only one phase and ground is used?

                I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

                Regards,
                DJ





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • mikeotter
                ... DJ, Daryl give a good explanation when he was here about using induction motors as generators. Now, when using a 3 phase motor as a generator, when you get
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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                  > What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor, how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce when only one phase and ground is used?
                  > > I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.
                  > > Regards,
                  > DJ


                  DJ,
                  Daryl give a good explanation when he was here about using induction motors as generators.
                  Now, when using a 3 phase motor as a generator, when you get excitation between two legs when it is spun to speed the 3rd leg gets excitation.

                  This is how I make 3 phase in my shop. You can ask Paul and Ken, it works fin. I have several books on doing this and you can get TONS of info on line about how to do it and how to excite them all by themselves to be used for a 3 phase power generator. You can also use single phase motors for this and I believe this is what Daryl was speaking of but what he understood to make them more efficient you have to change some of the windings. He was VERY up on it and intended to use this with the Listeroid I sold him.

                  OOE
                • Bruce Jackson
                  Dear Kevin, Once again, I m sure you are right. I never measured the wattage available. I simply plugged things in until it stopped working. Then restruck the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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                    Dear Kevin,
                    Once again, I'm sure you are right. I never measured the wattage available. I simply plugged things in until it stopped working. Then restruck the capacitors, with less load. It was a really hungry impoverished time and when the first lights came on with that rig we were cheering. I really got atta boys when the water heater and clothes washing machine came on line as well.
                     One very important point I should make is the 15hp motor I first used weighed 250 lbs. The 30hp motor weighs in over 400lbs. I could walk the little one around but could only deadlift the big one. They cannot overheat, ever.
                    I am getting back to this. Seriously. Once this silly concrete driveway gets poured, I am getting all my parts set out for assembly. I'm thinkin' the Continental coupled to the 30hp with the center feed producer fueling the engine. My buddy, the carpenter, wants to set up the waste heat/hydronics set up.
                     This time I want to set up a leg that powers a bank of electric heaters. The engine will need a minimum load to make the producer work right, and those heaters might be just the ticket.
                     Anyhow,
                    BPJ

                    --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@...> wrote:


                    From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@...>
                    Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                    To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 1:34 PM








                    Dear Bruce

                    Some of the 'Lecric Wizards" on the list can correct us, but I think that the power available from a single phase of a 3 phase motor is
                    1500/1.732 = 866 watts, where 1.732 is the square root of 3.

                    If that is true, then if the three legs powered three loads in the single phase mode, the 3 phase 1500 watt generator could potentially deliver 3 x 866 = 2598 watts. However, this might be a bad move, in that generator cooling may be insufficient. With your estimate of 500 watts per leg, then the generator would not likely be in danger of overheating.

                    I look forward to comments from the "Lecric Wizards."

                    Best wishes,

                    Kevin

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Bruce Jackson
                    To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                    Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 1:44 PM
                    Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators

                    DJ,
                    From the hip, 1500/3 =500watts per leg then derate by %20 would give 400 watts.

                    Thats to say 400 watts per leg. I am not sure of how they do the 50hrz stuff. I tried to look at that while in Iraq. There, I never found motors that had hi/low voltage connections on each leg. They were all 240volt. I wanted to try 480 volts but never found the right motor.

                    There is no substitute for just hooking these things up. They all act differently. The most that happens is that you draw too many amps and drain the capacitors. The generator simply stops producing power. For that, unhook the load, restrike the capacitors while spinning the motor and wella! Back in business.
                    I ran into dilemmas when I tried using my Lincoln Buzz Box welder. Apparently the generators can't tolerate loads too close to their limits. I'd have to restrike the capacitors if I stuck the rod on the weldpiece.

                    The real time saver would be a digital RPM meter so that the motors could be spinning at their rated rpm BEFORE the capacitors are hooked up. I have destroyed capacitors by making too much voltage and not knowing it, this by spinning the motors too fast.

                    When I started using motors in the 30hp or better range, I had much greater sucess. Then I had enough potential power to handle surges from motor start ups, welding, and acts of stupidity.


                    Things I'd like to buy because of induction generators.. ..
                    1. Frequency meter
                    2. rpm meter
                    3. Three phase 12volt battery charger
                    3. Three phase AC welder
                    4. Three phase water heater.

                    My stationary producer cogen project includes a three phase motor, Continental Red Seal Six, and hydronic storage. We poured the pad for the gen house last summer and if things sort out right will have the engine mounted in the shack by this fall.
                    Anyhow,
                    Post the links to the literature that you found, I gotta download and either print the files or put it on disk. As this thing is probably the most boot strapable method for off gridders to get gobbs of power affordably.
                    BPJ

                    --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                    From: Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@ yahoo.com>
                    Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                    To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                    Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 10:36 AM

                    --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups .com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    > Whoops!
                    > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time, since 2002.

                    Bruce,

                    What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor, how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce when only one phase and ground is used?

                    I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

                    Regards,
                    DJ

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Greg Manning
                    People.... Hold on for a second OK ? A 3 phase unit can NOT be directly setup to produce 220 2 pole single phase, the windings in a 3 phase unit are set to be
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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                      People....

                      Hold on for a second OK ?


                      A 3 phase unit can NOT be directly setup to produce 220 2 pole single phase,
                      the windings in a 3 phase unit are set to be 120 degrees apart, NOT 180
                      degrees like 2 pole single phase.

                      You CAN however use a single phase (as Bruce says) and hook it to red and
                      black of the 2 pole and produce 220 HOWEVER it is NOT center taped.....
                      therefore WATCH IT !!!!

                      3 phase generators can be wired in "Zig-Zag" in lieu of "Wye" or "Delta",
                      these MUST be 12 lead styled generators and are only 70% of their 3 phase
                      rating.

                      if one does connect 2 sets of the 3 phase windings to a 220 2 pole single
                      phase connection what will happen is the system will "Buck" 60 degrees of a
                      360 degree circle (the rotation of the rotor (in case of a motor, the
                      armature), therefore you might get a portion of ONE LEG of a 2 pole single
                      phase system as a "sell back" or "free" electricity HOWEVER the other leg
                      will consume 60% of the "free" electricity you created, therefore only
                      actually giving you 40% of what you generated as "free" so to speak......


                      3 phase hooked to 3 phase... NO PROBLEM !!! 98% efficiency of electricity
                      recovery of the "free" portion you are generating...

                      WARNING !!!! do this will cause your electricity provider to monitor you,
                      and here is how....


                      VARS (inductive reactance) (also called I/R)

                      Inductive reactance is what is the "kick" in a cars ignition coil, it is
                      the buildup and collapse of the magnetic field in the coil that causes the
                      high voltage kick in the high tension winding in a coil, it also is a
                      measure by the eclectic utility company as to the effective sale of
                      volt/amps (VA's or Watts) (*Watts are the corrected measurement of VA's*)

                      VARS are the reactive component of VA's so when another inductive generator
                      is added to the system (even a small one) the VARS on the system change,
                      this is a given with motors starting and stopping, BUT.... they have a very
                      good log of the seasonal average, even the addition of a small inductive
                      generator will drastically change the VAR measurement on a leg of the
                      grid....

                      ANY changes to the var readings within a 24 hour period, warrant an
                      investigation into the change (eg: a bad leg capacitor or a blown reactance
                      coil on their equipment will cause the same type of changes to that leg of
                      the grid).

                      Oh, Btw, I am speaking of the local grid NOT the international one, you as
                      a person would never be allowed to attach to it, it is way to high a voltage
                      (over 50 k volt).


                      Greg Manning





                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                      Of Dutch John
                      Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 9:37 AM
                      To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators


                      --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Whoops!
                      > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time,
                      since 2002.


                      Bruce,

                      What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as
                      induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor,
                      how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce
                      when only one phase and ground is used?

                      I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

                      Regards,
                      DJ



                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links



                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2207 - Release Date: 06/28/09
                      17:54:00
                    • Bruce Jackson
                      Greg, Just to check myself and see if we are on the same page... You are talking about the C2C hook ups where you DON T parallel all the capacitors? I can see
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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                      • 0 Attachment
                        Greg,
                        Just to check myself and see if we are on the same page...
                        You are talking about the C2C hook ups where you DON'T parallel all the capacitors? I can see where it would be stupid to try and share legs. That'd be a dead short.
                        I pull power from all three phases BUT run them on seperate circuits. Individual legs are single phase and are split (this must be the 12 terminal you mentioned) so that you can pull 120vac or 208 vac. Frequency varies with engine speed.
                        This to the readers in the group,
                        I gotta say this too. Do not try and be a Wiley E. Coyote and turn your meter backwards by using the grid as your exciter. Its not clever, and its a really fine way to lose both your grid power and your house. Screw up while trying to lock phases and see what breaks. This generator scheme is something I recommend if you are too broke to do anything else, meaning you already don't have grid power.
                         
                        Now, for those who are running the three phase motors from single phase power...has anyone used the pulsating light bulbs to lock the phases or match frequencies?
                        Never had grid power and induction generators going at the same time, so I don't know for sure how that goes.
                        Anyhow,
                        That was fun.
                        BPJ

                        --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Greg Manning <a31ford@...> wrote:


                        From: Greg Manning <a31ford@...>
                        Subject: [WoodGas] Induction Generators... Basics
                        To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 10:42 PM










                        People....

                        Hold on for a second OK ?

                        A 3 phase unit can NOT be directly setup to produce 220 2 pole single phase,
                        the windings in a 3 phase unit are set to be 120 degrees apart, NOT 180
                        degrees like 2 pole single phase.

                        You CAN however use a single phase (as Bruce says) and hook it to red and
                        black of the 2 pole and produce 220 HOWEVER it is NOT center taped.....
                        therefore WATCH IT !!!!

                        3 phase generators can be wired in "Zig-Zag" in lieu of "Wye" or "Delta",
                        these MUST be 12 lead styled generators and are only 70% of their 3 phase
                        rating.

                        if one does connect 2 sets of the 3 phase windings to a 220 2 pole single
                        phase connection what will happen is the system will "Buck" 60 degrees of a
                        360 degree circle (the rotation of the rotor (in case of a motor, the
                        armature), therefore you might get a portion of ONE LEG of a 2 pole single
                        phase system as a "sell back" or "free" electricity HOWEVER the other leg
                        will consume 60% of the "free" electricity you created, therefore only
                        actually giving you 40% of what you generated as "free" so to speak......

                        3 phase hooked to 3 phase... NO PROBLEM !!! 98% efficiency of electricity
                        recovery of the "free" portion you are generating.. .

                        WARNING !!!! do this will cause your electricity provider to monitor you,
                        and here is how....

                        VARS (inductive reactance) (also called I/R)

                        Inductive reactance is what is the "kick" in a cars ignition coil, it is
                        the buildup and collapse of the magnetic field in the coil that causes the
                        high voltage kick in the high tension winding in a coil, it also is a
                        measure by the eclectic utility company as to the effective sale of
                        volt/amps (VA's or Watts) (*Watts are the corrected measurement of VA's*)

                        VARS are the reactive component of VA's so when another inductive generator
                        is added to the system (even a small one) the VARS on the system change,
                        this is a given with motors starting and stopping, BUT.... they have a very
                        good log of the seasonal average, even the addition of a small inductive
                        generator will drastically change the VAR measurement on a leg of the
                        grid....

                        ANY changes to the var readings within a 24 hour period, warrant an
                        investigation into the change (eg: a bad leg capacitor or a blown reactance
                        coil on their equipment will cause the same type of changes to that leg of
                        the grid).

                        Oh, Btw, I am speaking of the local grid NOT the international one, you as
                        a person would never be allowed to attach to it, it is way to high a voltage
                        (over 50 k volt).

                        Greg Manning

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups .com]On Behalf
                        Of Dutch John
                        Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 9:37 AM
                        To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                        Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators

                        --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups .com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@.. .> wrote:
                        >
                        > Whoops!
                        > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time,
                        since 2002.

                        Bruce,

                        What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as
                        induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor,
                        how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce
                        when only one phase and ground is used?

                        I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

                        Regards,
                        DJ

                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2207 - Release Date: 06/28/09
                        17:54:00



















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Terry Houston
                        Hello Bruce, Yep, just never know where an innocent little statement is gonna go around here, hehe! I finished the frame for the 3 kw generator today.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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                          Hello Bruce,
                          Yep, just never know where an innocent little statement is gonna go around here, hehe!
                          I finished the frame for the 3 kw generator today.
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas/photos/album/952944824/pic/1306295389/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&count=20&dir=asc
                          I'll drag it outside and drop the generator in it tomorrow and try to get it fired up on gas. Hasn't been started in about 3 years, but it ran ok before I put it away. I didn't say I was giving up on the 300, just want to make sure I've got something ready to go, and this is the easiest project to complete right now. Might as well use some of this crap I've been collecting and storing all these years. Yeah, if my divorce was over I'd pull out all the stops. I've got all my survival goodies packed away in the semi and I'd get the bait shop open and start doing some welding for cash. I don't want to go to hog wild just in the very unlikely event I have to pull up stakes.
                          That's pretty interesting about the induction motor generators. I've been downloading some stuff and reading in it, but I don't really grasp 3-phase. I've read some on it and understand the delta and wye setup, just never had a reason to get deep off into it. The neighbor at the end of the road is a union electrician, I'll have to get together with him sometime. Preferably after I get the generator running on woodgas, kind of primes the pump.
                          Take care,
                          TJ

                          --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...> wrote:


                          From: Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...>
                          Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Induction Generators... Basics
                          To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 11:22 PM








                          Greg,
                          Just to check myself and see if we are on the same page...
                          You are talking about the C2C hook ups where you DON'T parallel all the capacitors? I can see where it would be stupid to try and share legs. That'd be a dead short.
                          I pull power from all three phases BUT run them on seperate circuits. Individual legs are single phase and are split (this must be the 12 terminal you mentioned) so that you can pull 120vac or 208 vac. Frequency varies with engine speed.
                          This to the readers in the group,
                          I gotta say this too. Do not try and be a Wiley E. Coyote and turn your meter backwards by using the grid as your exciter. Its not clever, and its a really fine way to lose both your grid power and your house. Screw up while trying to lock phases and see what breaks. This generator scheme is something I recommend if you are too broke to do anything else, meaning you already don't have grid power.
                           
                          Now, for those who are running the three phase motors from single phase power...has anyone used the pulsating light bulbs to lock the phases or match frequencies?
                          Never had grid power and induction generators going at the same time, so I don't know for sure how that goes.
                          Anyhow,
                          That was fun.
                          BPJ

                          --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Greg Manning <a31ford@inetlink. ca> wrote:

                          From: Greg Manning <a31ford@inetlink. ca>
                          Subject: [WoodGas] Induction Generators.. . Basics
                          To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                          Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 10:42 PM

                          People....

                          Hold on for a second OK ?

                          A 3 phase unit can NOT be directly setup to produce 220 2 pole single phase,
                          the windings in a 3 phase unit are set to be 120 degrees apart, NOT 180
                          degrees like 2 pole single phase.

                          You CAN however use a single phase (as Bruce says) and hook it to red and
                          black of the 2 pole and produce 220 HOWEVER it is NOT center taped.....
                          therefore WATCH IT !!!!

                          3 phase generators can be wired in "Zig-Zag" in lieu of "Wye" or "Delta",
                          these MUST be 12 lead styled generators and are only 70% of their 3 phase
                          rating.

                          if one does connect 2 sets of the 3 phase windings to a 220 2 pole single
                          phase connection what will happen is the system will "Buck" 60 degrees of a
                          360 degree circle (the rotation of the rotor (in case of a motor, the
                          armature), therefore you might get a portion of ONE LEG of a 2 pole single
                          phase system as a "sell back" or "free" electricity HOWEVER the other leg
                          will consume 60% of the "free" electricity you created, therefore only
                          actually giving you 40% of what you generated as "free" so to speak......

                          3 phase hooked to 3 phase... NO PROBLEM !!! 98% efficiency of electricity
                          recovery of the "free" portion you are generating.. .

                          WARNING !!!! do this will cause your electricity provider to monitor you,
                          and here is how....

                          VARS (inductive reactance) (also called I/R)

                          Inductive reactance is what is the "kick" in a cars ignition coil, it is
                          the buildup and collapse of the magnetic field in the coil that causes the
                          high voltage kick in the high tension winding in a coil, it also is a
                          measure by the eclectic utility company as to the effective sale of
                          volt/amps (VA's or Watts) (*Watts are the corrected measurement of VA's*)

                          VARS are the reactive component of VA's so when another inductive generator
                          is added to the system (even a small one) the VARS on the system change,
                          this is a given with motors starting and stopping, BUT.... they have a very
                          good log of the seasonal average, even the addition of a small inductive
                          generator will drastically change the VAR measurement on a leg of the
                          grid....

                          ANY changes to the var readings within a 24 hour period, warrant an
                          investigation into the change (eg: a bad leg capacitor or a blown reactance
                          coil on their equipment will cause the same type of changes to that leg of
                          the grid).

                          Oh, Btw, I am speaking of the local grid NOT the international one, you as
                          a person would never be allowed to attach to it, it is way to high a voltage
                          (over 50 k volt).

                          Greg Manning

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com [mailto:WoodGas@ yahoogroups .com]On Behalf
                          Of Dutch John
                          Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 9:37 AM
                          To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                          Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators

                          --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups .com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@.. .> wrote:
                          >
                          > Whoops!
                          > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time,
                          since 2002.

                          Bruce,

                          What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as
                          induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor,
                          how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce
                          when only one phase and ground is used?

                          I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

                          Regards,
                          DJ

                          ------------ --------- --------- ------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2207 - Release Date: 06/28/09
                          17:54:00

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dutch John
                          ... Bruce, Why did this guy put series of different exitation capacitators in his bank? Stability for a wide range of load? Does it always need a dump load?
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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                            --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...> wrote:
                            >  http://www.scribd.com/doc/3198677/3-phase-motor-as-1-phase-generator-diagram.pdf
                            > I found this but its awfully complicated for a beginner.


                            Bruce,

                            Why did this guy put series of different exitation capacitators in his bank? Stability for a wide range of load?

                            Does it always need a dump load? How is the dump load controlled?

                            Regards,
                            DJ
                          • Hugh
                            For a step by step tutorial on how to make your own: http://www.qsl.net/ns8o/Induction_Generator.html
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 28, 2009
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                            • 0 Attachment
                              For a step by step tutorial on how to make your own:

                              http://www.qsl.net/ns8o/Induction_Generator.html




                              --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups.com, "mikeotter" wrote:
                              >
                              > > What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor, how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce when only one phase and ground is used?
                              > > > I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.
                              > > > Regards,
                              > > DJ
                              >
                              >
                              > DJ,
                              > Daryl give a good explanation when he was here about using induction motors as generators.
                              > Now, when using a 3 phase motor as a generator, when you get excitation between two legs when it is spun to speed the 3rd leg gets excitation.
                              >
                              > This is how I make 3 phase in my shop. You can ask Paul and Ken, it works fin. I have several books on doing this and you can get TONS of info on line about how to do it and how to excite them all by themselves to be used for a 3 phase power generator. You can also use single phase motors for this and I believe this is what Daryl was speaking of but what he understood to make them more efficient you have to change some of the windings. He was VERY up on it and intended to use this with the Listeroid I sold him.
                              >
                              > OOE
                              >
                            • Greg Manning
                              Yes Bruce, when running stand alone (as you are) you would be correct, all 3 legs can be used, I was referring to those that want to stop their meter by
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 29, 2009
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                                Yes Bruce, when running stand alone (as you are) you would be correct, all
                                3 legs can be used, I was referring to those that want to "stop their meter"
                                by using what they create instead of grid power. (live tie of grid and
                                generator together).

                                Greg


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                Of Bruce Jackson
                                Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 11:23 PM
                                To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Induction Generators... Basics


                                Greg,
                                Just to check myself and see if we are on the same page...
                                You are talking about the C2C hook ups where you DON'T parallel all the
                                capacitors? I can see where it would be stupid to try and share legs. That'd
                                be a dead short.
                                I pull power from all three phases BUT run them on seperate circuits.
                                Individual legs are single phase and are split (this must be the 12 terminal
                                you mentioned) so that you can pull 120vac or 208 vac. Frequency varies with
                                engine speed.
                                This to the readers in the group,
                                I gotta say this too. Do not try and be a Wiley E. Coyote and turn your
                                meter backwards by using the grid as your exciter. Its not clever, and its a
                                really fine way to lose both your grid power and your house. Screw up while
                                trying to lock phases and see what breaks. This generator scheme is
                                something I recommend if you are too broke to do anything else, meaning you
                                already don't have grid power.
                                 
                                Now, for those who are running the three phase motors from single phase
                                power...has anyone used the pulsating light bulbs to lock the phases or
                                match frequencies?
                                Never had grid power and induction generators going at the same time, so I
                                don't know for sure how that goes.
                                Anyhow,
                                That was fun.
                                BPJ

                                --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Greg Manning <a31ford@...> wrote:


                                From: Greg Manning <a31ford@...>
                                Subject: [WoodGas] Induction Generators... Basics
                                To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 10:42 PM










                                People....

                                Hold on for a second OK ?

                                A 3 phase unit can NOT be directly setup to produce 220 2 pole single phase,
                                the windings in a 3 phase unit are set to be 120 degrees apart, NOT 180
                                degrees like 2 pole single phase.

                                You CAN however use a single phase (as Bruce says) and hook it to red and
                                black of the 2 pole and produce 220 HOWEVER it is NOT center taped.....
                                therefore WATCH IT !!!!

                                3 phase generators can be wired in "Zig-Zag" in lieu of "Wye" or "Delta",
                                these MUST be 12 lead styled generators and are only 70% of their 3 phase
                                rating.

                                if one does connect 2 sets of the 3 phase windings to a 220 2 pole single
                                phase connection what will happen is the system will "Buck" 60 degrees of a
                                360 degree circle (the rotation of the rotor (in case of a motor, the
                                armature), therefore you might get a portion of ONE LEG of a 2 pole single
                                phase system as a "sell back" or "free" electricity HOWEVER the other leg
                                will consume 60% of the "free" electricity you created, therefore only
                                actually giving you 40% of what you generated as "free" so to speak......

                                3 phase hooked to 3 phase... NO PROBLEM !!! 98% efficiency of electricity
                                recovery of the "free" portion you are generating.. .

                                WARNING !!!! do this will cause your electricity provider to monitor you,
                                and here is how....

                                VARS (inductive reactance) (also called I/R)

                                Inductive reactance is what is the "kick" in a cars ignition coil, it is
                                the buildup and collapse of the magnetic field in the coil that causes the
                                high voltage kick in the high tension winding in a coil, it also is a
                                measure by the eclectic utility company as to the effective sale of
                                volt/amps (VA's or Watts) (*Watts are the corrected measurement of VA's*)

                                VARS are the reactive component of VA's so when another inductive generator
                                is added to the system (even a small one) the VARS on the system change,
                                this is a given with motors starting and stopping, BUT.... they have a very
                                good log of the seasonal average, even the addition of a small inductive
                                generator will drastically change the VAR measurement on a leg of the
                                grid....

                                ANY changes to the var readings within a 24 hour period, warrant an
                                investigation into the change (eg: a bad leg capacitor or a blown reactance
                                coil on their equipment will cause the same type of changes to that leg of
                                the grid).

                                Oh, Btw, I am speaking of the local grid NOT the international one, you as
                                a person would never be allowed to attach to it, it is way to high a voltage
                                (over 50 k volt).

                                Greg Manning

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com [mailto:WoodGas@yahoogroups .com]On Behalf
                                Of Dutch John
                                Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 9:37 AM
                                To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                                Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators

                                --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups .com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@.. .> wrote:
                                >
                                > Whoops!
                                > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time,
                                since 2002.

                                Bruce,

                                What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as
                                induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor,
                                how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce
                                when only one phase and ground is used?

                                I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

                                Regards,
                                DJ

                                ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2207 - Release Date: 06/28/09
                                17:54:00



















                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links



                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2207 - Release Date: 06/28/09
                                17:54:00
                              • ron ohler
                                Hi Bruce, What size is the engine you have? Fxxx? Ron ... From: Bruce Jackson Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators To:
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 29, 2009
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                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Bruce,
                                  What size is the engine you have? Fxxx?
                                  Ron

                                  --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...> wrote:


                                  From: Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                                  To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 12:44 PM








                                  DJ,
                                  From the hip, 1500/3 =500watts per leg then derate by %20 would give 400 watts.
                                   
                                  Thats to say 400 watts per leg. I am not sure of how they do the 50hrz stuff. I tried to look at that while in Iraq. There, I never found motors that had hi/low voltage connections on each leg. They were all 240volt. I wanted to try 480 volts but never found the right motor.
                                   
                                  There is no substitute for just hooking these things up. They all act differently. The most that happens is that you draw too many amps and drain the capacitors. The generator simply stops producing power. For that, unhook the load, restrike the capacitors while spinning the motor and wella! Back in business.
                                   I ran into dilemmas when I tried using my Lincoln Buzz Box welder. Apparently the generators can't tolerate loads too close to their limits. I'd have to restrike the capacitors if I stuck the rod on the weldpiece.
                                   
                                  The real time saver would be a digital RPM meter so that the motors could be spinning at their rated rpm BEFORE the capacitors are hooked up. I have destroyed capacitors by making too much voltage and not knowing it, this by spinning the motors too fast.
                                   
                                  When I started using motors in the 30hp or better range, I had much greater sucess. Then I had enough potential power to handle surges from motor start ups, welding, and acts of stupidity.
                                   
                                   
                                  Things I'd like to buy because of induction generators.. ..
                                  1. Frequency meter
                                  2. rpm meter
                                  3. Three phase 12volt battery charger
                                  3. Three phase AC welder
                                  4. Three phase water heater.
                                   
                                  My stationary producer cogen project includes a three phase motor, Continental Red Seal Six, and hydronic storage. We poured the pad for the gen house last summer and if things sort out right will have the engine mounted in the shack by this fall.
                                  Anyhow,
                                  Post the links to the literature that you found, I gotta download and either print the files or put it on disk. As this thing is probably the most boot strapable method for off gridders to get gobbs of power affordably.
                                  BPJ

                                  --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                  From: Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@ yahoo.com>
                                  Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                                  To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                                  Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 10:36 AM

                                  --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups .com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@.. .> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Whoops!
                                  > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time, since 2002.

                                  Bruce,

                                  What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor, how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce when only one phase and ground is used?

                                  I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

                                  Regards,
                                  DJ

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Bruce Jackson
                                  Hi DJ,   Yeah, I just took a look at that bank, hmmm. T1-T2 adds up to 87MFD T2-T3 adds up to 262MFD T1-T3 adds up to 175MFD   I just don t know. I have
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 29, 2009
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                                    Hi DJ,
                                     
                                    Yeah, I just took a look at that bank, hmmm.
                                    T1-T2 adds up to 87MFD
                                    T2-T3 adds up to 262MFD
                                    T1-T3 adds up to 175MFD
                                     
                                    I just don't know. I have always series or paralled them until I got the voltage I wanted at 60hrz. But I always had equal capcitance on each leg.
                                     
                                    They would'nt have gone to all that trouble making the schematic, just to screw up the capacitance would they?
                                    I am sorry I posted that link. Its too confusing for someone who is just starting. 
                                    There is a much simpler way of attaching the capacitors. Every schematic I have seen is a PITA.
                                    I'll get back with a picture. I have the capacitors at the house here and one tiny 3phase motor I can wire up just to show.
                                    I had to learn on the run but this might be too confusing without hands on or detailed photographs.
                                    Thanks for asking, I feel like I got everybody thinking about it and now I better make sure no one is left high and dry.
                                    BPJ
                                    --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@...> wrote:


                                    From: Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@...>
                                    Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                                    To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 2:07 AM








                                    --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups .com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@.. .> wrote:
                                    >  http://www.scribd com/doc/3198677/ 3-phase-motor- as-1-phase- generator- diagram.pdf
                                    > I found this but its awfully complicated for a beginner.

                                    Bruce,

                                    Why did this guy put series of different exitation capacitators in his bank? Stability for a wide range of load?

                                    Does it always need a dump load? How is the dump load controlled?

                                    Regards,
                                    DJ



















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Bruce Jackson
                                    Hi, I went out to look and I can t find the number. Its out of a 6000lb capacity Clark forklift. Same engine that was in the Divco milk delivery trucks.  
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 29, 2009
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                                      Hi,
                                      I went out to look and I can't find the number. Its out of a 6000lb capacity Clark forklift. Same engine that was in the Divco milk delivery trucks.
                                       
                                      This is the kind of rock crusher I was thinking of....
                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-xjkKObC6I&feature=related
                                       
                                      BPJ

                                      --- On Mon, 6/29/09, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:


                                      From: ron ohler <ohler_ron@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                                      To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 7:30 AM








                                      Hi Bruce,
                                      What size is the engine you have? Fxxx?
                                      Ron

                                      --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                      From: Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@yahoo. com>
                                      Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                                      To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                                      Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 12:44 PM

                                      DJ,
                                      From the hip, 1500/3 =500watts per leg then derate by %20 would give 400 watts.
                                       
                                      Thats to say 400 watts per leg. I am not sure of how they do the 50hrz stuff. I tried to look at that while in Iraq. There, I never found motors that had hi/low voltage connections on each leg. They were all 240volt. I wanted to try 480 volts but never found the right motor.
                                       
                                      There is no substitute for just hooking these things up. They all act differently. The most that happens is that you draw too many amps and drain the capacitors. The generator simply stops producing power. For that, unhook the load, restrike the capacitors while spinning the motor and wella! Back in business.
                                       I ran into dilemmas when I tried using my Lincoln Buzz Box welder. Apparently the generators can't tolerate loads too close to their limits. I'd have to restrike the capacitors if I stuck the rod on the weldpiece.
                                       
                                      The real time saver would be a digital RPM meter so that the motors could be spinning at their rated rpm BEFORE the capacitors are hooked up. I have destroyed capacitors by making too much voltage and not knowing it, this by spinning the motors too fast.
                                       
                                      When I started using motors in the 30hp or better range, I had much greater sucess. Then I had enough potential power to handle surges from motor start ups, welding, and acts of stupidity.
                                       
                                       
                                      Things I'd like to buy because of induction generators.. ..
                                      1. Frequency meter
                                      2. rpm meter
                                      3. Three phase 12volt battery charger
                                      3. Three phase AC welder
                                      4. Three phase water heater.
                                       
                                      My stationary producer cogen project includes a three phase motor, Continental Red Seal Six, and hydronic storage. We poured the pad for the gen house last summer and if things sort out right will have the engine mounted in the shack by this fall.
                                      Anyhow,
                                      Post the links to the literature that you found, I gotta download and either print the files or put it on disk. As this thing is probably the most boot strapable method for off gridders to get gobbs of power affordably.
                                      BPJ

                                      --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                      From: Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@ yahoo.com>
                                      Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                                      To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                                      Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 10:36 AM

                                      --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups .com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@.. .> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Whoops!
                                      > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time, since 2002.

                                      Bruce,

                                      What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor, how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce when only one phase and ground is used?

                                      I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

                                      Regards,
                                      DJ

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • mikeotter
                                      ... Bruce, Yes I have. I use two in series with a fairly heavy switch parallel. A breaker is always a must. I use grid power to re-power dead generator heads
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 29, 2009
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                                        > Now, for those who are running the three phase motors from single phase power...has anyone used the pulsating light bulbs to lock the phases or match frequencies?
                                        > Never had grid power and induction generators going at the same time, so I don't know for sure how that goes.
                                        > Anyhow,
                                        > That was fun.
                                        > BPJ


                                        Bruce,
                                        Yes I have. I use two in series with a fairly heavy switch parallel. A breaker is always a must. I use grid power to re-power dead generator heads too. The light stays on until you start up then it starts to blink. The faster you rev, the slower the blink. When the sines start to overlap the light goes on and off slowly. This is the Wile E. Coyote part you speak so highly of. You get those lights turning on and off slowly ,like nearing staying off and slam the switch when the bulb is black. If it is a generator or an overly large electric motor this is the point when you slam the throttle wide open and go watch the meter. If something happens to bust, your breaker will save you from burning the house down. You will NEVER keep up to demand should the grid drop. The over sized motor or genny head will lug the little motor to shut down.

                                        Thy any of these things at you own risk. I am not liable for your melt downs or your breakers popping to save your over stuffed electric motors..... I won't be there when the investigators show up because your meter is running backwards due to your "Gorilla Home Electric Company"... Yes, they too have been here. Along with the gas company investigators. I still have that leter in my Email someplace...

                                        OOE
                                      • Bruce Jackson
                                        Great! Mike, I can t wait to hear more about this. It has some potential for paralleling generators. Like those slick little hondas   I am totally not
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 29, 2009
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                                          Great! Mike,
                                          I can't wait to hear more about this. It has some potential for paralleling generators. Like those slick little hondas
                                           
                                          I am totally not interested in fooling with the grid, I don't want the power company investigating us. We have cloth wiring, and some insulator and tube wires in the basement.
                                          For now the grid is nice. Its not vital but convienent. I always tell her if she doesnt pay them then I'll cheerfully let them unhook the meters. That always gets some action around here. She knows I'm not joking, especially since I got that big old air compressor that I could run with the Yanmar.
                                           Anyhow,
                                          Its raining hard and about 50F so we are going to the bush to burn brush today. No bugs, no sweat, and the fellas can try their 4-moto.
                                          BPJ

                                          --- On Mon, 6/29/09, mikeotter <mikeotter@...> wrote:


                                          From: mikeotter <mikeotter@...>
                                          Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Induction Generators... Basics
                                          To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:26 AM









                                          > Now, for those who are running the three phase motors from single phase power...has anyone used the pulsating light bulbs to lock the phases or match frequencies?
                                          > Never had grid power and induction generators going at the same time, so I don't know for sure how that goes.
                                          > Anyhow,
                                          > That was fun.
                                          > BPJ

                                          Bruce,
                                          Yes I have. I use two in series with a fairly heavy switch parallel. A breaker is always a must. I use grid power to re-power dead generator heads too. The light stays on until you start up then it starts to blink. The faster you rev, the slower the blink. When the sines start to overlap the light goes on and off slowly. This is the Wile E. Coyote part you speak so highly of. You get those lights turning on and off slowly ,like nearing staying off and slam the switch when the bulb is black. If it is a generator or an overly large electric motor this is the point when you slam the throttle wide open and go watch the meter. If something happens to bust, your breaker will save you from burning the house down. You will NEVER keep up to demand should the grid drop. The over sized motor or genny head will lug the little motor to shut down.

                                          Thy any of these things at you own risk. I am not liable for your melt downs or your breakers popping to save your over stuffed electric motors..... I won't be there when the investigators show up because your meter is running backwards due to your "Gorilla Home Electric Company"... Yes, they too have been here. Along with the gas company investigators. I still have that leter in my Email someplace...

                                          OOE




















                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • mikeotter
                                          ... Bruce, The governors on the generators will get in a serious dog fight if you try that. Nothing wrong with knob a tube wiring as long as you don t overload
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 29, 2009
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                                            > Great! Mike,
                                            > I can't wait to hear more about this. It has some potential for paralleling generators. Like those slick little hondas
                                            > I am totally not interested in fooling with the grid, I don't want the power company investigating us. We have cloth wiring, and some insulator and tube wires in the basement.
                                            > For now the grid is nice. Its not vital but convienent. I always tell her if she doesnt pay them then I'll cheerfully let them unhook the meters. That always gets some action around here. She knows I'm not joking, especially since I got that big old air compressor that I could run with the Yanmar.
                                            >  Anyhow,
                                            > Its raining hard and about 50F so we are going to the bush to burn brush today. No bugs, no sweat, and the fellas can try their 4-moto.
                                            > BPJ

                                            Bruce,
                                            The governors on the generators will get in a serious dog fight if you try that. Nothing wrong with knob a tube wiring as long as you don't overload it and turn it into a toaster..LOL..
                                            And those Hondas are REAL slick with the inverter technology. You ARE supposed to be able to daisy chain them things and they're supposed to dance with the grid. I'd like to know for sure about them as they'd dance with any other generator just fine too if that's the case.
                                            I can draw picture schematics and show an actual picture of the junk I used to sync with..... It's just two light bulbs in series basically.

                                            OOE
                                          • ron ohler
                                            Hi Bruce, The in-line 6 cylinder flat head(L-head)engines typically had the ID tag near the engine oil dipstick. It s an aluminum tag rivited to the block.
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jun 29, 2009
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                                              Hi Bruce,
                                              The in-line 6 cylinder flat head(L-head)engines typically had the ID tag near the engine oil dipstick. It's an aluminum tag rivited to the block. Some rebuilders take them off for some reason.
                                              Ron
                                              --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...> wrote:


                                              From: Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                                              To: WoodGas@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:08 AM








                                              Hi,
                                              I went out to look and I can't find the number. Its out of a 6000lb capacity Clark forklift. Same engine that was in the Divco milk delivery trucks.
                                               
                                              This is the kind of rock crusher I was thinking of....
                                              http://www.youtube com/watch? v=9-xjkKObC6I& feature=related
                                               
                                              BPJ

                                              --- On Mon, 6/29/09, ron ohler <ohler_ron@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                              From: ron ohler <ohler_ron@yahoo. com>
                                              Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                                              To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                                              Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 7:30 AM

                                              Hi Bruce,
                                              What size is the engine you have? Fxxx?
                                              Ron

                                              --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                              From: Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@yahoo. com>
                                              Subject: Re: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                                              To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                                              Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 12:44 PM

                                              DJ,
                                              From the hip, 1500/3 =500watts per leg then derate by %20 would give 400 watts.
                                               
                                              Thats to say 400 watts per leg. I am not sure of how they do the 50hrz stuff. I tried to look at that while in Iraq. There, I never found motors that had hi/low voltage connections on each leg. They were all 240volt. I wanted to try 480 volts but never found the right motor.
                                               
                                              There is no substitute for just hooking these things up. They all act differently. The most that happens is that you draw too many amps and drain the capacitors. The generator simply stops producing power. For that, unhook the load, restrike the capacitors while spinning the motor and wella! Back in business.
                                               I ran into dilemmas when I tried using my Lincoln Buzz Box welder. Apparently the generators can't tolerate loads too close to their limits. I'd have to restrike the capacitors if I stuck the rod on the weldpiece.
                                               
                                              The real time saver would be a digital RPM meter so that the motors could be spinning at their rated rpm BEFORE the capacitors are hooked up. I have destroyed capacitors by making too much voltage and not knowing it, this by spinning the motors too fast.
                                               
                                              When I started using motors in the 30hp or better range, I had much greater sucess. Then I had enough potential power to handle surges from motor start ups, welding, and acts of stupidity.
                                               
                                               
                                              Things I'd like to buy because of induction generators.. ..
                                              1. Frequency meter
                                              2. rpm meter
                                              3. Three phase 12volt battery charger
                                              3. Three phase AC welder
                                              4. Three phase water heater.
                                               
                                              My stationary producer cogen project includes a three phase motor, Continental Red Seal Six, and hydronic storage. We poured the pad for the gen house last summer and if things sort out right will have the engine mounted in the shack by this fall.
                                              Anyhow,
                                              Post the links to the literature that you found, I gotta download and either print the files or put it on disk. As this thing is probably the most boot strapable method for off gridders to get gobbs of power affordably.
                                              BPJ

                                              --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                              From: Dutch John <dutchjohn1st@ yahoo.com>
                                              Subject: [WoodGas] Re: Oof! Induction Generators
                                              To: WoodGas@yahoogroups .com
                                              Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 10:36 AM

                                              --- In WoodGas@yahoogroups .com, Bruce Jackson <bpjackso@.. .> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Whoops!
                                              > I haven't looked for induction generators on the internet in a long time, since 2002.

                                              Bruce,

                                              What is the ratio generated power to nominal motor power for a motor used as induction generator? In other words, say I have a 1500 Watt 3 phase motor, how much can it produce as a 3 phase generator? And how much can it produce when only one phase and ground is used?

                                              I ask this, because I read different numbers in the literature.

                                              Regards,
                                              DJ

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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