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the witch and the cat (re:what is a witch)

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  • rhonda
    hi Sandra and Justin As I am not a physicist, I need to know a couple of things about cats and magical intentions. If I intend for the cat to be alive will it
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 1, 2007
      hi Sandra and Justin

      As I am not a physicist, I need to know a couple of things about cats
      and magical intentions.

      If I intend for the cat to be alive will it live?
      If I intend for the cat to be dead will it die?
      If I want it half dead and half alive can I make it so?

      Is this a matter of faith or can I see and touch the half dead/alive
      cat? Or would this ruin the experiment by giving it a quantum reality?

      Also does it matter what the cat feels about it, (except of course from
      a humane point of view)ie: will the cats feelings get in the way of my
      intentions? What are the cats intentions?

      As it is a witch's cat does it have to have to be black?

      Merry musings
      Rhonda
    • Nisaba Merrieweather
      G dday. ... From: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rhonda Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:35 AM To:
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 1, 2007
        G'dday.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rhonda
        Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:35 AM
        To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] the witch and the cat (re:what is a witch)

        >If I intend for the cat to be alive will it live?
        If I intend for the cat to be dead will it die?
        If I want it half dead and half alive can I make it so?

        >Is this a matter of faith or can I see and touch the half dead/alive
        cat? Or would this ruin the experiment by giving it a quantum reality?

        >Also does it matter what the cat feels about it, (except of course from
        a humane point of view)ie: will the cats feelings get in the way of my
        intentions? What are the cats intentions?

        >As it is a witch's cat does it have to have to be black?

        <cackle> You've been talking to my friend Schrodinger, haven't you. Take a
        leaf out of Heisenberg's book (he came up with the only scientific theorem
        that isn't sure whether it exists or not, making it rather zen).

        Okay, a little more seriously, let's look at that.

        You said:
        >If I intend for the cat to be alive will it live?
        If I intend for the cat to be dead will it die?

        People intend for cats to be alive all the time, causing heartbreak when
        they die, even when the cat is in a box through which a bullet passes.
        People want cats to die all the time, and many of them inconveniently don't,
        becoming feral.

        Cats are thinking, knowing beings, and arguably, as they spend more time in
        the astral, closer to the Ancient Ones than we are. Do not their own
        intentions and thoughts probably outweigh yours for their own destiny?

        You said:
        > If I want it half dead and half alive can I make it so?

        Nope, and nor can it. But, as in Schroedinger's famous thought-experiment,
        there is a time when it is NEITHER dead nor alive, or both dead and alive.
        If it is neither (or both), the cat will be both fully alive and fully dead,
        not half-alive or half-dead, and ditto, when it is neither alive nor dead,
        it will be both not alive, and not dead, fully and completely in both
        states. This is fairly basic magic, and being able to reach into that plane
        and do things there is the basis of thaumaturgy. The trick is not to make it
        neither (or both) dead and alive, but to wait for the moment (or rearrange
        time to bring it to you), then plunge in and make use of the situation
        magically.

        You said:
        >Also does it matter what the cat feels about it, (except of course from
        a humane point of view)ie: will the cats feelings get in the way of my
        intentions? What are the cats intentions?

        Absolutely. Domestic cats in particular are abstract thinkers - they've had
        thousands of years freed from the need to use what brain they have to live,
        due to the doting attentions of humans, so that they can use that same brain
        power for abstract and magickal thought. That's why some of us adore and are
        fascinated by them, whilst the rest of us loathe or slightly fear them - I
        think you'll find few enough people who have met cats face-to-face who are
        completely indifferent to them. Cats have their own intentions. And they
        don't share them around, except to make plain to us that our role is to
        master door handles and tin openers, and provide warm laps.

        Moving away from Schroedinger's famous feline example (and he used cats
        purely as an example), I saw Schroedinger's Theorum in full magical
        application in front of my eyes in 1994. I was with my then-partner, and
        their grandmother's place, who had full-blown emphysaemia and was very, very
        frail. The house was an old house, and was perched over an eroded cliff. It
        was a stormy and very windy winter at that location. The house was over a
        century old, made of weatherboard, and poorly maintained. I'm a pretty solid
        person, and my partner wasn't exactly klight either. We had gone out onto
        the porch over the cliff to watch the storm, lowering the clear plastic
        awning for shelter against the rain and the worst of the wind. Gran was
        indoors making a pot o'tea, her cure-all for everything including stormy
        nights when the kids inexplicably wanted to sit out in the weather.

        We moved to the far end of the porch, some distance from the door. It was
        quite dark. Then the tea was made, and this tiny, frail little woman, with
        probably no more weight in her body than a spider, walked daintily across
        the decking we had stomped over. It gave under her few ounces. She threw her
        hands up and disappeared downwards, her mouth a round "o". I clearly
        remember how she looked falling down. The tea things went everywhere.

        We looked at each other. There was no sound, no cries, no moans. A moment of
        dread went by. I asked what was below the decking and got told it wasn't
        deep beneath us yet, but there were sharp rocks and she would have hurt
        herself badly. She should be crying, if she wasn't, she was probably dead.
        "But she's not dead yet," my partner suddenly said, and both of us could
        feel a twirl of some kind of energy around us. We both knew we had to stay
        in that energy.

        Without looking at each other and without saying anything both went to the
        broken floorboards (too small a hole for us to climb through), we both stuck
        our hands down the hole blind (small hole, and dark night), and we both
        groped around. My partner made contact with a hand and grabbed it as hard as
        possible. Pulled. And up came a grandmother, looking shocked and frightened.
        She turned around, we asked if she was hurt, and she said no, she hadn't had
        time to hit the rocks yet - we had caught her in midair.

        Unless by magic, I fail to see how she thought no time had elapsed at all
        and she was still right at the beginning of a fall, while our experience on
        the other side of the decking was that enough time had elapsed for us to
        look at each other, have a brief conversation, then move at a fast walk the
        length of the house before sticking our hands down. In this case, the
        invisibility of the decking was the invisibility of Schroedinger's catbox:
        her experience was that we were right there and moved with lightning speed
        as she was falling at a normal rate and had just started falling, whilst our
        experience was that she had had fallen for several seconds at least, and
        should have been lying on the rocks beneath. She was both dead (or seriously
        injured) and alive, both still falling and on the rocks. My partner just
        very skillfully grabbed the hand of the grandmother who was still falling,
        still uninjured.

        She never fully understood what happened, thinking we must have been right
        there when it happened. She sustained a slightly bruised hand from being
        desperately grabbed and lost some hair which snared in the floorboards, but
        otherwise was untouched. She lived another couple of years, then her lungs
        finished her. It enabled her to meet the baby my partner's sister had just
        before she died.

        The Schroedinger's Cat theorem in practical application.

        Nisaba
        Caeser si viveret, ad remum dareris.
        www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/nisaba000
        ICQ 361565370
      • rhonda
        ... wrote: Greetings Nisaba ... example of Schroedingers Theorum. An incredible experience to be (or not to be)a part of. Yes cats are their own
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 2, 2007
          --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "Nisaba Merrieweather"
          <nisaba@...> wrote:

          Greetings Nisaba
          >Wow!Its amazing that a tongue-in-cheek post can extract a true life
          example of Schroedingers Theorum. An incredible experience to be (or
          not to be)a part of. Yes cats are their own beings, which is what I
          was infering.Did Schroedinger forget to take the will of the cat into
          consideration or am I missing something here?
          I too am fascinated by that nith(a word I just coined)point. The
          timeless magical moment of transformation, neither here or there.

          Rhonda

          .
          > G'dday.
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rhonda
          > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:35 AM
          > To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] the witch and the cat (re:what is a
          witch)
          >
          > >If I intend for the cat to be alive will it live?
          > If I intend for the cat to be dead will it die?
          > If I want it half dead and half alive can I make it so?
          >
          > >Is this a matter of faith or can I see and touch the half
          dead/alive
          > cat? Or would this ruin the experiment by giving it a quantum
          reality?
          >
          > >Also does it matter what the cat feels about it, (except of course
          from
          > a humane point of view)ie: will the cats feelings get in the way of
          my
          > intentions? What are the cats intentions?
          >
          > >As it is a witch's cat does it have to have to be black?
          >
          > <cackle> You've been talking to my friend Schrodinger, haven't you.
          Take a
          > leaf out of Heisenberg's book (he came up with the only scientific
          theorem
          > that isn't sure whether it exists or not, making it rather zen).
          >
          > Okay, a little more seriously, let's look at that.
          >
          > You said:
          > >If I intend for the cat to be alive will it live?
          > If I intend for the cat to be dead will it die?
          >
          > People intend for cats to be alive all the time, causing heartbreak
          when
          > they die, even when the cat is in a box through which a bullet
          passes.
          > People want cats to die all the time, and many of them
          inconveniently don't,
          > becoming feral.
          >
          > Cats are thinking, knowing beings, and arguably, as they spend more
          time in
          > the astral, closer to the Ancient Ones than we are. Do not their own
          > intentions and thoughts probably outweigh yours for their own
          destiny?
          >
          > You said:
          > > If I want it half dead and half alive can I make it so?
          >
          > Nope, and nor can it. But, as in Schroedinger's famous thought-
          experiment,
          > there is a time when it is NEITHER dead nor alive, or both dead and
          alive.
          > If it is neither (or both), the cat will be both fully alive and
          fully dead,
          > not half-alive or half-dead, and ditto, when it is neither alive
          nor dead,
          > it will be both not alive, and not dead, fully and completely in
          both
          > states. This is fairly basic magic, and being able to reach into
          that plane
          > and do things there is the basis of thaumaturgy. The trick is not
          to make it
          > neither (or both) dead and alive, but to wait for the moment (or
          rearrange
          > time to bring it to you), then plunge in and make use of the
          situation
          > magically.
          >
          > You said:
          > >Also does it matter what the cat feels about it, (except of course
          from
          > a humane point of view)ie: will the cats feelings get in the way of
          my
          > intentions? What are the cats intentions?
          >
          > Absolutely. Domestic cats in particular are abstract thinkers -
          they've had
          > thousands of years freed from the need to use what brain they have
          to live,
          > due to the doting attentions of humans, so that they can use that
          same brain
          > power for abstract and magickal thought. That's why some of us
          adore and are
          > fascinated by them, whilst the rest of us loathe or slightly fear
          them - I
          > think you'll find few enough people who have met cats face-to-face
          who are
          > completely indifferent to them. Cats have their own intentions. And
          they
          > don't share them around, except to make plain to us that our role
          is to
          > master door handles and tin openers, and provide warm laps.
          >
          > Moving away from Schroedinger's famous feline example (and he used
          cats
          > purely as an example), I saw Schroedinger's Theorum in full magical
          > application in front of my eyes in 1994. I was with my then-
          partner, and
          > their grandmother's place, who had full-blown emphysaemia and was
          very, very
          > frail. The house was an old house, and was perched over an eroded
          cliff. It
          > was a stormy and very windy winter at that location. The house was
          over a
          > century old, made of weatherboard, and poorly maintained. I'm a
          pretty solid
          > person, and my partner wasn't exactly klight either. We had gone
          out onto
          > the porch over the cliff to watch the storm, lowering the clear
          plastic
          > awning for shelter against the rain and the worst of the wind. Gran
          was
          > indoors making a pot o'tea, her cure-all for everything including
          stormy
          > nights when the kids inexplicably wanted to sit out in the weather.
          >
          > We moved to the far end of the porch, some distance from the door.
          It was
          > quite dark. Then the tea was made, and this tiny, frail little
          woman, with
          > probably no more weight in her body than a spider, walked daintily
          across
          > the decking we had stomped over. It gave under her few ounces. She
          threw her
          > hands up and disappeared downwards, her mouth a round "o". I clearly
          > remember how she looked falling down. The tea things went
          everywhere.
          >
          > We looked at each other. There was no sound, no cries, no moans. A
          moment of
          > dread went by. I asked what was below the decking and got told it
          wasn't
          > deep beneath us yet, but there were sharp rocks and she would have
          hurt
          > herself badly. She should be crying, if she wasn't, she was
          probably dead.
          > "But she's not dead yet," my partner suddenly said, and both of us
          could
          > feel a twirl of some kind of energy around us. We both knew we had
          to stay
          > in that energy.
          >
          > Without looking at each other and without saying anything both went
          to the
          > broken floorboards (too small a hole for us to climb through), we
          both stuck
          > our hands down the hole blind (small hole, and dark night), and we
          both
          > groped around. My partner made contact with a hand and grabbed it
          as hard as
          > possible. Pulled. And up came a grandmother, looking shocked and
          frightened.
          > She turned around, we asked if she was hurt, and she said no, she
          hadn't had
          > time to hit the rocks yet - we had caught her in midair.
          >
          > Unless by magic, I fail to see how she thought no time had elapsed
          at all
          > and she was still right at the beginning of a fall, while our
          experience on
          > the other side of the decking was that enough time had elapsed for
          us to
          > look at each other, have a brief conversation, then move at a fast
          walk the
          > length of the house before sticking our hands down. In this case,
          the
          > invisibility of the decking was the invisibility of Schroedinger's
          catbox:
          > her experience was that we were right there and moved with
          lightning speed
          > as she was falling at a normal rate and had just started falling,
          whilst our
          > experience was that she had had fallen for several seconds at
          least, and
          > should have been lying on the rocks beneath. She was both dead (or
          seriously
          > injured) and alive, both still falling and on the rocks. My partner
          just
          > very skillfully grabbed the hand of the grandmother who was still
          falling,
          > still uninjured.
          >
          > She never fully understood what happened, thinking we must have
          been right
          > there when it happened. She sustained a slightly bruised hand from
          being
          > desperately grabbed and lost some hair which snared in the
          floorboards, but
          > otherwise was untouched. She lived another couple of years, then
          her lungs
          > finished her. It enabled her to meet the baby my partner's sister
          had just
          > before she died.
          >
          > The Schroedinger's Cat theorem in practical application.
          >
          > Nisaba
          > Caeser si viveret, ad remum dareris.
          > www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/nisaba000
          > ICQ 361565370
          >
        • Sandra
          Well Rhonda, since I had never really heard of Schroedinger s theory before I had to go away and learn a little. So, I am currently reading Gary Zukav s The
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 2, 2007
            Well Rhonda, since I had never really heard of Schroedinger's theory
            before I had to go away and learn a little. So, I am currently
            reading Gary Zukav's The Dancing Wu Li Masters to enlighten myself. I
            think Nisaba covered your question fairly well.

            Sandra



            --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "rhonda" <greenlilith_7@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > hi Sandra and Justin
            >

            >
            > Merry musings
            > Rhonda
            >
          • darkmoon.rising@optusnet.com.au
            Hi Nisaba, Great story. I think even for those that use magic all the time, when a situation like this happens, it still astounds us. A couple of years back,
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 2, 2007
              Hi Nisaba,

              Great story. I think even for those that use magic all the time, when a situation like this happens, it still astounds us.

              A couple of years back, as a scout leader, I took a nasty fall. To short story it, scouts were pulling on rope in a game, I was attached to it and with my momentum and theirs I fell full force onto my elbow.
              This elbow was exactly at right angles to the ground and I was moving fast when I hit, it's supported by a shoulder that has had surgery from which it never recovered and weakend muscle running across calcified bones.
              Despite the velocity, my 95kg frame, and the 50kg scout coming with me, it seemed to take much too long to hit the ground. I had expected my shoulder to give way, and my upper arm to shatter like glass.
              When I got up and took stock, I has a very slight elbow bruise and what essentially can be described as mild shock. As the reverberation of the concrete floor dissipated, I found I was feeling pretty damned good, but somewhat drained of energy.

              Peter

              > Nisaba Merrieweather <nisaba@...> wrote:
              >
              > And up came a grandmother, looking shocked and
              > frightened.
              > She turned around, we asked if she was hurt, and she said no, she hadn't
              > had
              > time to hit the rocks yet - we had caught her in midair.
              >
              > Unless by magic, I fail to see how she thought no time had elapsed at
              > all
              > and she was still right at the beginning of a fall, while our experience
              > on
              > the other side of the decking was that enough time had elapsed for us to
              > look at each other, have a brief conversation, then move at a fast walk
              > the
              > length of the house before sticking our hands down.
            • Nisaba Merrieweather
              G dday. ... From: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rhonda Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:50 PM To:
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 2, 2007
                G'dday.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rhonda
                Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:50 PM
                To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: the witch and the cat (re:what is a witch)

                >Did Schroedinger forget to take the will of the cat into
                consideration or am I missing something here?

                No, Schroedinger was just using the cat as an example. It could easily have
                been meteorological systems he was talking about, or the destruction of a
                belt-buckle in an earthquake. The example he used, of a cat in a sealed box
                into which a bullet is fired, was merely a metaphor to illustrate something
                that had an equal chance of happening or not happening (ie, the injury of
                the cat) when there is no observation possible, and how both alternatives
                have happened simultaneously until the exact split-second when observation
                becomes possible.

                Right up until the grandmother incident, I was suspicious that it wouldn't
                have worked with a cat, because thinking beings (and both cats and
                grandmothers think) observe themselves. However, as I pointed out, my
                partner's magic in desperately needing to catch a family member was greater
                than the old lady's need to die.

                Or perhaps, now I think of it, we were caught in a multiple-universes
                moment, and my partner grabbed the hand of the alternative grandmother who
                happened to still be falling and alive.

                Whatever, we both knew we were in a magical moment.


                Nisaba
                Caeser si viveret, ad remum dareris.
                www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/nisaba000
                ICQ 361565370
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