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Re: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: perception of the fate of human remains

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  • Carole
    Thank you but this did not answer the question,just danced around the issue Jonathon ... From: frater_carfax To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday,
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 1, 2007
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      Thank you but this did not answer the question,just danced around the issue Jonathon
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: frater_carfax
      To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 3:30 PM
      Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: perception of the fate of human remains



      > I find it curious that ,on one hand people can view in awe the
      > pyramids (grave of dead human) and the assumption that people who
      > have an interest in graves of common folk are somewhat deranged or
      > morbid to say the least.Would anyone like to debate this point of
      > view?

      For those who like the best of both worlds, you can check out the
      Pyramid Tomb in St Thomas' Cemetery in North Sydney - final resting
      place of early gentry Elizabeth Berry, Alexander Berry and Edward
      Wollstonecraft

      http://www.northsydney.nsw.gov.au/www/html/2270-st-thomas-rest-park.asp

      Lovely cemetery though - nice spot for a picnic, it has a childrens
      playground and is full of early colonial history.

      You can tell I probably sit in the 'deranged and morbid' camp .....I
      blame my father, when I was younger he would frequently take my sister
      and I on holidays through small towns in South Australia, and the
      local graveyard was often a port of call - but then that is where the
      history is at, isn't it?

      During my recent travels in Vienna I took a guided tour of the St
      Michael Church Crypt - due to the particular climactic conditions and
      constant temperature in the crypt, there are thousands of corpses in
      unamed unmarked coffins that are kept very well preserved and still in
      their finery, quite a few in 'open coffins'.

      Always good manners to leave a coin or two at the gate of any final
      resting place tho'...

      LLL

      Jonathan






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    • frater_carfax
      ... Far be it from me to dance on graves.... ... Ok - which people have these views in your opinion? Surely the awe is one of architectural achievement and
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 1, 2007
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        > Thank you but this did not answer the question,just danced around
        > the issue Jonathon

        Far be it from me to dance on graves....

        > I find it curious that ,on one hand people can view in awe the
        > pyramids (grave of dead human) and the assumption that people who
        > have an interest in graves of common folk are somewhat deranged or
        > morbid to say the least.Would anyone like to debate this point of
        > view?

        Ok - which people have these views in your opinion?

        Surely the 'awe' is one of architectural achievement and as such
        totally unrelated to any sentiments of interest with regards to the
        actual burial practices per se. This is generally evident when they go
        "oooh aaaah" at the pyramid, but "eughh" when told that the muumy had
        its brain pulled out through its nose.

        Thus there is nothing strange or contradictory in those who may marvel
        at the pyramids, may find any taphopiliacs such as me, you and anyone
        else with shameful history of spending too much time dressed in black
        hanging out at Waverly cemetery, just a touch weird.

        But that has more to do with Western society's lack of 'comfort' with
        Death.

        Or am I missing something in the proposition of your debate?

        LLL

        Jonathan
      • barbtrad
        Hi Carole. I don t know about debating the point of view, but my comment is that graveyards are a place where one can find a lot of unwritten historical facts,
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 1, 2007
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          Hi Carole.

          I don't know about debating the point of view, but my comment is that
          graveyards are a place where one can find a lot of unwritten
          historical facts, and providing that due respect is shown, I see
          nothing morbid or deranged in being interested in finding the
          interesting stories that are there to be discovered. I do stress
          though, that all due respect and a quiet demeanor in graveyards is
          essential to both plain good manners and due respect for those whose
          mortal remains are intered within...Bill.


          --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "Carole" <simonite1@...> wrote:
          >
          > I find it curious that ,on one hand people can view in awe the
          pyramids (grave of dead human) and the assumption that people who have
          an interest in graves of common folk are somewhat deranged or morbid
          to say the least.Would anyone like to debate this point of view?
          > CC
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Carole
          would I ever chose to disagree with my learned bretheren , but yes I feel that a tad of, compasssion should be taken into considerartion ,as to the diverse
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 1, 2007
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            would I ever chose to disagree with my learned bretheren , but yes I feel that a tad of, compasssion should be taken into considerartion ,as to the diverse record presented,but none of which can be verified
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: frater_carfax
            To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 7:15 PM
            Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: perception of the fate of human remains



            > Thank you but this did not answer the question,just danced around
            > the issue Jonathon

            Far be it from me to dance on graves....

            > I find it curious that ,on one hand people can view in awe the
            > pyramids (grave of dead human) and the assumption that people who
            > have an interest in graves of common folk are somewhat deranged or
            > morbid to say the least.Would anyone like to debate this point of
            > view?

            Ok - which people have these views in your opinion?

            Surely the 'awe' is one of architectural achievement and as such
            totally unrelated to any sentiments of interest with regards to the
            actual burial practices per se. This is generally evident when they go
            "oooh aaaah" at the pyramid, but "eughh" when told that the muumy had
            its brain pulled out through its nose.

            Thus there is nothing strange or contradictory in those who may marvel
            at the pyramids, may find any taphopiliacs such as me, you and anyone
            else with shameful history of spending too much time dressed in black
            hanging out at Waverly cemetery, just a touch weird.

            But that has more to do with Western society's lack of 'comfort' with
            Death.

            Or am I missing something in the proposition of your debate?

            LLL

            Jonathan






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          • Marian Dalton
            Hi Carole, all, ... pyramids (grave of dead human) and the assumption that people who have an interest in graves of common folk are somewhat deranged or
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 1, 2007
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              Hi Carole, all,

              --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "Carole" <simonite1@...> wrote:
              >
              > I find it curious that ,on one hand people can view in awe the
              pyramids (grave of dead human) and the assumption that people who have
              an interest in graves of common folk are somewhat deranged or morbid
              to say the least.Would anyone like to debate this point of view?

              This is a relatively recent phenomenon. Melbourne's "garden
              cemeteries" were originally planned to facilitate their use as
              recreation spots as well as final resting places. It wasn't uncommon
              to see a group of mourners on the train to Fawkner, with the coffin
              riding in a carriage specially designed for that purpose. Those
              mourners would have the funeral, burial, and then picnic in the
              cemetery grounds among the graves for the afternoon. This was going
              on well into the last century, and it certainly wasn't regarded as
              morbid at all.

              There are a great many superstitions surrounding graves, and certainly
              the phenomenon of grave desecration (usually by stupid kids)
              guarantees a shocked and outraged reaction. Photographs of beautiful
              tomb monuments, however, are well-established as art pieces, and many
              of the larger cemeteries in the world not only encourage tourists, but
              offer guided tours of the more "interesting" graves. Melbourne
              cemetery even had a night tour which was accompanied by the telling of
              ghost stories. Marie Leveaux's grave in St Louise No.1 in New Orleans
              is a place both for tourism and pilgrimage, as is Jim Morrison's in
              Paris.

              I think the idea that being interested in graves is "morbid" may not
              be that widespread at all.

              B*B


              Maz
            • Nisaba Merrieweather
              G dday. ... What, theirs, or yours? Dead people are *always* less obnoxious than living people - that s why I trained as an archaeologist, it s why my
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 1, 2007
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                G'dday.

                >From: "Carole" <simonite1@...>
                >Reply-To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
                >To: <WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com>
                >Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] perception of the fate of human remains
                >Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 14:40:30 +1000
                >
                >I find it curious that ,on one hand people can view in awe the pyramids
                >(grave of dead human) and the assumption that people who have an interest
                >in graves of common folk are somewhat deranged or morbid to say the
                >least.Would anyone like to debate this point of view?

                What, theirs, or yours?

                Dead people are *always* less obnoxious than living people - that's why I
                trained as an archaeologist, it's why my sister-in-law trained as an
                anaesthetist (she much prefers unconscious people).

                People are fascinating. We know more about royalty, even ancient royalty,
                because htey tend to try to document their lives. The servants don't. So
                they are *obviously* more fascinating because they are more mysterious.

                Nisaba
                being grave for once.

                _________________________________________________________________
                Join the millions of Australians using Live Search. Try live.com.au
                http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?mode=click&clientID=740&referral=million&URL=http://live.com.au
              • Cat
                Well beaing the kind of person that dos wear lots of darkér hued clothing and also spending time in graveyards at night I find that that atude is some what
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 1, 2007
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                  Well beaing the kind of person that dos wear lots of darkér hued
                  clothing and also spending time in graveyards at night I find that
                  that atude is some what perlevant acros scoicitys that arnt as
                  progresive as others you might say.
                  exzample over in european contrys it is quite normal to find people
                  doing etchings of grave stones and eaven in places like mexco people
                  go drinking with there dead frends in graveyards but hear in oz some
                  of the what wer told to be normal people will scrue up there faces and
                  say a non to kind word when you say in passing that you think
                  graveyards are nice places to spend time (reading books listening to
                  musick or tacking pice of gravestones)
                  Normal people find death hard to deal with and push it aside hopeing
                  that it might go away 4 a wile but smelly stuff dos happen and people
                  die its life live with it.
                  K cat
                • victoria_quinton
                  Co-incidentally I have just been looking through some examples of work for peace that won awards in 2005. One involved schools in Germany, working actively
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 1, 2007
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                    "Co-incidentally" I have just been looking through some examples of
                    work for peace that won awards in 2005.

                    One involved schools in Germany, working actively to combat
                    violence and racism.

                    Part of the synopsis about at least one of the schools was:

                    " Fifteen pupils from class 7b, who meet once a month and on special
                    occasions such as 9/11, to tend to memorials at the Trompeten
                    cemetery.
                    They weed, water and plant flowers, even during the holidays.
                    There are three burial grounds - for Russian and German soldiers,
                    and for Ukrainian forced labourers there. "

                    possibly more seemingly controversial:

                    another of the schools involved had a project for classes 9a b and c
                    entitled:
                    "Germany's Dark Age: Perpetrators and Victims in the Third Reich".

                    ***

                    Another winning entry, not related to the above

                    involved a school involved in finding letters in the municipal
                    archives in which the head of a protestant school informed the mayor
                    that two of the school's students were half Jewish. That family fled
                    to Holland, not long before its Occupation.. and the two children in
                    question ended up being killed at Auschwitz.

                    ***

                    First 'action for Peace in contemporary times' was to convince
                    local government to rename two streets after these two children.

                    ***

                    Next... the same municipal archives revealed that 11 other children
                    who were named as being (part) Jewish had survived, but had to leave
                    that town.

                    That was dealt with by the current students created works in graffiti-
                    style that contained the first names of these 11 children.

                    Children at the school also collect money for an autonomou Mayan
                    School, Ajaadw Tukur [ spelling may be off] their "informal partner
                    school".

                    This school aims to revive Mayan culture by holding lessons in the
                    native Mayan language and studying Mayan history.

                    They suggest that an amount equivalent to educating 11 children be
                    donated to the Mayan school.

                    ***

                    Another winner was the Parents Circle

                    A union of Palestinian and Israeli parents who have lost their
                    children to the violent conflicts in the Middle East. The members
                    are united in grief - but they advocate conflicting parties coming to
                    understandings and political compromises that are more tolerable than
                    further acts of violence.

                    *****

                    Not an award winner, but in the same vein

                    It has been a long time since the World Dreams Peace Bridge
                    > > heard from Chayim Levin, but the idea of a Bridge and, what's more
                    > > Hands Across the Jordan is a fine one, I believe.Hands Across the
                    > > Jordan - November 16
                    > >
                    > > We have come to consensus that on November 16 2004 of the
                    > > Christian calendar/ ,3th day in the month of Shewal in the Moslem
                    > > year of 1425/on the 3rd day of the month of Kislev in the Hebrew
                    year
                    > > of 5765, we shall with the help of our family build a Peace Bridge
                    > > over the Jordan River.
                    > >
                    > > Hands Across The Jordan
                    > >
                    > > To bring together all people from different religious and
                    > > socio-economic backgrounds for the purpose of building a "bridg! e
                    of
                    > > peace" over the Jordan River.
                    > >
                    > > Reaching across the River in peace and in silent prayer with
                    > > the hope of lighting a spark of hope for the common man. That in
                    > > spite of our differences we can come together to realize that
                    without
                    > > a common ideal we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.
                    That
                    > > only when the simple people of the world can drop their prejudice
                    and
                    > > bigotry will there be peace and harmony. That a bridge over the
                    Jordan
                    > > River will symbolize man's connection to man. That this bridge
                    will
                    > > support all people in spite of their in-bred bias and foolishness.
                    > > That in the process of building such a bridge we can prove to
                    > > ourselves and others that we can work together. To bridge heart to
                    > > heart and strength to strength. Given the opportunity to complete
                    > > such a task and to prove to God and each other that we worth of
                    the
                    > > peace we so desperately yearn for. This is an action of peace.
                    Come
                    > > and join the blessing.
                    > >
                    > > For further information contact Chayim Levin,
                    > > handsacrossthejordan@...
                    > >
                    > > HANDS ACROSS THE JORDANMy name is Chayim Levin.I moved to
                    > > Israel in 1974 from my home town,Chicago.The culture of my new
                    home
                    > > was certainly different than my place of birth but I was
                    convinced I
                    > > could grow spiritually in Jerusalem and create a peaceful nature
                    in
                    > > myself and maybe affect my comunity at large.Without a community
                    to
                    > > share with, I will no doubt fail at both.
                    > > In searching for a life partner I met Rachael. We are married
                    > > 29 years and have three children.We are both committed to our
                    faith,
                    > > family, and each other. On our wedding day we declared to each
                    other
                    > > that we must do whatever we can to bring about true peace in our
                    > > lives. Unfortunately,for us we have witnessed countless
                    > > atrocities and have buried many of our friends.
                    > > Sometimes we feel our lives, hanging by a thread at best.I have
                    > > failed in my commitment to my family to
                    > > live in peace in Israel.
                    > > Many years ago there! was a bus bombing in my community of
                    > > Maalot Dafne.Maalot Dafne is community inside Jerusalem.
                    > >
                    > > I volunteered to collect and match body parts to the proper body
                    for
                    > > burial.I've done this many times only to feel an emptiness in my
                    soul.
                    > > The Torah teaches it is important to do acts of kindness for the
                    dead
                    > > but what about the living.I need to do something!I need to bust
                    out
                    of
                    > > my fear!.I've prayed for peace and there is no peace.
                    > > Neither in myself nor in the community I live in.
                    > > It's time for a change.It's time for the bitterness to end.
                    > > Several years ago I attended my first National Rainbow
                    > > Gathering in the mountains of Pennsylvania.
                    > > I met many interesting people there
                    > > especially one curios fellow by the name of Gary Stubbs.Gary
                    > > runs a soup kitchen and feeds anyone who is hungry.He says God
                    told
                    > > him to do this.
                    > > Well,that was certainly different for me to hear.
                    > > He has a belief in God but gives no sermon with the food.
                    > > We spoke about all the ways we were going to save the world.
                    > > I didn't see Gary again until the next Gathering in Montana.
                    > > I stayed for the entire Gathering from beginning to end.
                    > > I experienced my first fourth of July with the Rainbows.
                    > > This is when all the Rainbows come together in a big circle and
                    pray
                    > > for peace in silence.There was probably 25,000 people in the
                    circle.
                    > > A beautiful site indeed!.But in the mountains of Montana where
                    > > there is no war.So what is the point?.
                    > > Why not pray for peace together where there is war?.
                    > >
                    > > An interesting idea?, another pipe dream?I retuned to Gary's house
                    > > to kill some time before returning to Israel.
                    > > We met again in Michigan 2 years later for the next gathering
                    > > and my trust in Gary grew. He truly had no personal agenda except
                    > > to feed people.
                    > > My second visit to Gary's house brought a revelation.We must
                    > > pray for peace together with our friends in the Middle
                    > > East.Gary's suggestion was to build a bridge across the Jordan
                    River
                    > > and on that bridge pray for peace in silence.We picked a date and
                    > > began reaching out to people we know.
                    > > We met together with Rep. Wally Herger.He gave us a letter of
                    support
                    > > for the project and we started running with the event.We have been
                    > > working on this project for a year and a half.
                    > > I sure hope this bridge is built.I pray that my community join
                    > > me in this celebration of life Nov.16.There has been too much
                    > > anger,too much hatred.It's time to bring some light in to the
                    > > darkness.I hope this will answer any and all questions people
                    might
                    > > have about my relationship with Gary Stubbs and Rainbow Crystal
                    > > Kitchen Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:18 pm
                    > > Subject: Hands Across The JordanToday we recieved a letter
                    > > from Mr. Ramsey Hakim,chairman of the
                    > > Islamic Center Of Southern California.He says "our Islamic
                    > > Center will extend all its efforts to participate in your event".
                    > > ChayimWe have received endorsements from the following groups
                    > > and if you wish! , we will send them to you.
                    > >
                    > > Martin Luther King Jr. Center
                    > > Wally Herger, Member of Congress
                    > > M. K. Gandhi Institute
                    > > The Dalai Lama
                    > > Bertrand Russell Foundation Ltd., Nottingham, England
                    > > Noble Peace Prize Winner, Ellie Wiesel
                    > > Phonecall from President William Jefferson Clinton's Office
                    > > Ambassador Alon
                    > > Pinkas Consul General of Israel in New York,Archbishop of
                    > > Canterbury,Rabbi Chaim Freidman of San Francisco University
                    > >
                    Respectfully yours,

                    Rabbi Chayim Levin

                    *********************

                    If you think this is all totally unrelated to "what is discussed on
                    Witches Workshop" then please say why, on list.

                    Could there ever be a group called something like "Pagans for
                    Peace" that would be listed with others; whereby the "Peace" part
                    dominated?








                    --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "Marian Dalton"
                    <crazyjane13@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Carole, all,
                    >
                    > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "Carole" <simonite1@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I find it curious that ,on one hand people can view in awe the
                    > pyramids (grave of dead human) and the assumption that people who
                    have
                    > an interest in graves of common folk are somewhat deranged or
                    morbid
                    > to say the least.Would anyone like to debate this point of view?
                    >
                    > This is a relatively recent phenomenon. Melbourne's "garden
                    > cemeteries" were originally planned to facilitate their use as
                    > recreation spots as well as final resting places. It wasn't
                    uncommon
                    > to see a group of mourners on the train to Fawkner, with the coffin
                    > riding in a carriage specially designed for that purpose. Those
                    > mourners would have the funeral, burial, and then picnic in the
                    > cemetery grounds among the graves for the afternoon. This was
                    going
                    > on well into the last century, and it certainly wasn't regarded as
                    > morbid at all.
                    >
                    > There are a great many superstitions surrounding graves, and
                    certainly
                    > the phenomenon of grave desecration (usually by stupid kids)
                    > guarantees a shocked and outraged reaction. Photographs of
                    beautiful
                    > tomb monuments, however, are well-established as art pieces, and
                    many
                    > of the larger cemeteries in the world not only encourage tourists,
                    but
                    > offer guided tours of the more "interesting" graves. Melbourne
                    > cemetery even had a night tour which was accompanied by the telling
                    of
                    > ghost stories. Marie Leveaux's grave in St Louise No.1 in New
                    Orleans
                    > is a place both for tourism and pilgrimage, as is Jim Morrison's in
                    > Paris.
                    >
                    > I think the idea that being interested in graves is "morbid" may
                    not
                    > be that widespread at all.
                    >
                    > B*B
                    >
                    >
                    > Maz
                    >
                  • Caroline Tully
                    Hi Carole, ... And what about how is is considered perfectly normal for archaeologists to dig up the dead, undress them and often take them away to exhibit or
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 2, 2007
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                      Hi Carole,

                      >>I find it curious that ,on one hand people can view in awe the pyramids (grave of dead human) and the assumption that people who have an interest in graves of common folk are somewhat deranged or morbid to say the least.Would anyone like to debate this point of view?<<

                      And what about how is is considered perfectly normal for archaeologists to dig up the dead, undress them and often take them away to exhibit or study, but... if anyone were to dig someone up in a suburban graveyeard you'd be considered possibly insane. I really like graves and graveyards, but I like a lot of other things too, things that have nothing to do with graveyards.

                      In Britain there's a bit of a debate going on regarding reburial of human remains, I'm not sure what I think about it,.. it is British Pagans, Druids, asking for (the example I saw) really ancient bodies to be reburied because they were "ancestors of the Druids", like how Native Americans and Australian Aboriginals ask for some bodies in museums to be reburied. I'm not sure the contemporary Druids have as much of a 'leg to stand on' as the Native Americans and Aboriginals, because the Druids were not a current living culture when these (ancient) bodies were excavated... Some people might even debate the claims of contemporary Druids to be "Druids" at all.... But I'm, not gonna go there (mainly because I'm not actually interested enough - and any Druids out there, don't yell at me, I'm just relaying information, not trying to make definitive statements - I said 'some people', I didn't say 'I').

                      Here's some interesting writings about this sort of subject by my British pal, Yvonne Aburrow.
                      http://pagantheologies.pbwiki.com/Human%20remains


                      ~Caroline.

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