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Sexually Liberated????? (was Nude Fiona etc)

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  • Clare De Mayo
    I think that there is a lot more to sexual liberation than running around naked or having sex with lots of different people. If our behaviour is primarily a
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
      I think that there is a lot more to sexual liberation than running
      around naked or having sex with lots of different people. If our
      behaviour is primarily a reaction to a certain paridigm (mostly
      Christian morality) then we are still locked into that paradigm. So if
      we think that Christians are sexually repressed and don't like
      nakedness, so then we'll go naked, or Christians don't approve of sex
      before marriage or polygamy, so we'll do that to prove that we are
      free, then I think we are deluding ourselves. To be liberated sexually,
      I think, is to feel comfortable with one's sexual choices, and to be
      free to make them and live according to them. There are lots of reasons
      why people might choose to be naked in public, or engage in group sex
      or whatever, and some of them would have very little to do with
      liberated sexual behaviour....it could be related to being very
      narcissistic, to be extremely extroverted and unwillingly to explore a
      more introverted style, to having not learnt personal boundaries due to
      an earlier abuse situation. My point is that there are different sexual
      STYLES, and we need to discover the style that is truly right for us.
      (any good astrologer will tell you that the placement of Venus and Mars
      in your chart, and the aspects to these planets will describe your
      sexual style....someone with Mars in Cancer and Venus in Libra will
      have a very different way of expressing their sexuality to someone
      with Mars in Scorpio and Venus in Aquarius, for example. This is just
      one way of finding out more about oneself...there are lots of others).
      Despite protests to the contrary the position is often put that if you
      are truly pagan you should feel comfortable with and approve of sky
      clad rituals, group or public sex, etc etc. Why? I bet that those
      pagans who do feel comfortable with those forms of expression are
      merely exhibiting their particular sexual style, and if they weren't
      pagan they would be doing it in the secular world too, in some other
      way. It can be argued that Gardner's original call to naked rites
      represented his own life preference rather than some ancient
      traditional decree.
      I do believe too that there is a danger within Pagan circles when
      sexual expression is linked to authority or magical power. It is much
      harder to say 'no' to someone who says they 'know the way', and have a
      greater knowledge or power than you do. And sexual power itself has a
      potency which can be used to have 'power over' others.

      It is possible to be sexually liberated and to be celibate, and to be
      sexually unliberated and to have mulitiple sexual partners, or the
      opposite case, or any shades in between.

      Clare


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    • Tim Rice
      ... be sexually unliberated and to have mulitiple sexual partners, or the opposite case, or any shades in between.
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 2, 2004
        >>It is possible to be sexually liberated and to be celibate, and to
        be sexually unliberated and to have mulitiple sexual partners, or the
        opposite case, or any shades in between.<<

        Good post, Clare. I think you certainly have a point. Going out of
        one's way to be promiscous or nude seems like what teenagers
        call "being a try-hard."

        Sexual freedom surely equates to not feeling uncomfortable with any
        kind of sexuality (whether the context concerns your own sexuality or
        the sexual expression of others), rather than going out of one's way
        to prove to others what an uncontrolled fertility god/dess one is.
      • vicpagan
        Hi Clare You wrote:- ... Yep, I would think that it would entail knowing when not to do those things as well. ... (Original post snipped for brevity)... Yep, I
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 2, 2004
          Hi Clare
          You wrote:-

          > I think that there is a lot more to sexual liberation than running
          > around naked or having sex with lots of different people.

          Yep, I would think that it would entail knowing when not to do those
          things as well.

          >If our
          > behaviour is primarily a reaction to a certain paridigm (mostly
          > Christian morality) then we are still locked into that paradigm.

          (Original post snipped for brevity)...

          Yep, I totaly agree.

          > To be liberated sexually,
          > I think, is to feel comfortable with one's sexual choices, and to be
          > free to make them and live according to them.

          Agreed again, provided of course that living according to ones own
          choices don't cause harm to anyone who is minding their own business,
          and not harming anyone either.

          > There are lots of reasons
          > why people might choose to be naked in public, or engage in group
          sex
          > or whatever, and some of them would have very little to do with
          > liberated sexual behaviour....

          Agreed again, however, I have to say that while I am quite prepared
          to make judgements about specific behaviours in specific situations I
          would be very wary about presuming to know anothers motivation.

          > My point is that there are different sexual
          > STYLES, and we need to discover the style that is truly right for
          us.

          Yep exactly so, I reckon.

          > Despite protests to the contrary the position is often put that if
          you
          > are truly pagan you should feel comfortable with and approve of sky
          > clad rituals, group or public sex, etc etc. Why?

          I suspect that this stems partly from the fervent zealotry that one
          often sees in the newly converted, or in those experiencing the heady
          rush that new and liberating philosophies can have on people. Also I
          think that a lot of people have difficulty getting their heads out
          from under the advesarial either/or thought patterns that typify many
          of the restrictive philosophies that prevail in modern societies.

          > I bet that those
          > pagans who do feel comfortable with those forms of expression are
          > merely exhibiting their particular sexual style, and if they weren't
          > pagan they would be doing it in the secular world too, in some other
          > way.

          Possibly so, but also I think that some paganisms support people to
          embrace their own nature, including their sexual nature, whereas many
          mainstream social values often work to suppress or distort that
          nature.

          > It can be argued that Gardner's original call to naked rites
          > represented his own life preference rather than some ancient
          > traditional decree.

          I reckon it is also possible that being naked both fitted Gardners
          personality and beliefs and also represents a (potentially)powerfull
          magical technique. I might also add that I couldn't care less
          how 'ancient' or 'traditional' this practice is or was, so long as it
          works. I don't have much time for 'decrees' about magick or religion
          either, come to that, at least not until I have tested them for
          myself.

          > I do believe too that there is a danger within Pagan circles when
          > sexual expression is linked to authority or magical power. It is
          much
          > harder to say 'no' to someone who says they 'know the way', and
          have a
          > greater knowledge or power than you do. And sexual power itself has
          a
          > potency which can be used to have 'power over' others.

          I would agree with this also, actually I think there is a danger when
          any power is linked to any authoriy. Which is a bit of a potential
          problem because in many ways power is a key element of magick. One
          of the only really effective way I can think of to deal with this in
          the pagan communities is to resist all efforts to standardise,
          beaurocratise or institutionalise authority.

          > It is possible to be sexually liberated and to be celibate,

          I've noticed that there are quite a few different interpretations of
          the word celibacy, some people use it to mean no sexual or erotic
          activity (or even thoughts) at all, some mean no genital activity
          and/or orgasm, and others mean no sexual activity with another
          person. I'm sure there are other definitions as well. Add to that
          the many varried definitions of sex and it all gets rather confusing.

          However anyone choses to define celibacy I do feel that the practice
          of celibacy at specific times in our lifes and for different lengths
          of time can be extremely benificial. However, I have to admit that
          I'm a bit suss about the idea of lifelong celibacy, a lot of bizarre
          anti life philosophies have come out of that camp IMO.

          > and to be
          > sexually unliberated and to have mulitiple sexual partners, or the
          > opposite case, or any shades in between.

          I reckon that to be obsessed with sex or obsessed with the need to
          repress sexuality are just 2 sides of the same coin, now the only
          problem is working out exactly what degree of interest equates with
          obsession and what degree is reasonable. But then so long as no one
          who is minding their own business is harmed, does it matter?
          BM
          Hawthorn
        • She`
          I was talking to an aboriginal elder, Kakkib li`Dthia Warrawee a, a very sensible and mature man who lectures at several uni s and was on his way to The Haig,
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 4, 2004
            I was talking to an aboriginal elder, Kakkib li`Dthia Warrawee'a, a
            very sensible and mature man who lectures at several uni's and was on
            his way to The Haig, (certainly not a teenager try-hard)last week
            about his "national costume" and how said it is that he can be
            arrested for wearing it and worse yet he could be put into an insane
            asylum and called crazy because he was adhering to his deeply held
            personal beliefs.
            The aboriginal people think we are the crazy ones for wearing clothes
            and feeling ashamed of our bodies.

            Recently some female aboriginal elders were arrested for performing a
            traditional dance topless... it caused a big stink and apologies were
            handed out quick smart.

            If you were invited to do an aboriginal dance and you refused to take
            off your clothes and be body painted not only would this offend the
            indigenous people present they would laugh and say, "Silly White Fella!"

            The Tibetan tradition I come from the women, even the practitioners
            today, all go at least topless whilst practising magick, I have many
            photos of this... They are not as glam as Fiona but beautiful none the
            less.

            > Going out of
            > one's way to be promiscous or nude seems like what teenagers
            > call "being a try-hard."

            Its the attitude and hang ups of the offended person which needs
            examining not the attitude of the practitioner that is at question
            here! No one tuts at a three year old running around naked on the
            beach. They aren't trying hard. It's just natural. And if it raises
            issues for you, then you should deal with your own guilt not try and
            make everyone else feel guilty. You are the one that is ashamed not
            the child. Why make innocence feel guilt?

            > Sexual freedom surely equates to not feeling uncomfortable with any
            > kind of sexuality

            -AGREED!

            > rather than going out of one's way
            > to prove to others what an uncontrolled fertility god/dess one is.

            Most of the time, in this context, its "not out of the way"...its part
            of the ritual/weekend! I went to one event in January that is
            traditionally nearly all topless but the participants were made to
            feel so bad by the "tutting" from a small number of firs-timers who
            were supposedly experienced pagans, that this nearly completely ceased
            to not happen... it was a very sad thing....

            BB
            Shé
          • venusmoon5
            I agree with you she, apart from pagans and all the ritual stuff you re taling about. am I a try hard if I sun bake topless here in Australia or when I go over
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 4, 2004
              I agree with you she, apart from pagans and all the ritual stuff
              you're taling about. am I a try hard if I sun bake topless here in
              Australia or when I go over seas, I think not. Ask the Europeans.
              They have no hang ups, there was also a talk show on the radio a
              couple of days ago asking if mothers walked around naked in their own
              homes,in front of their children, a lot of replies saying absolutely
              they do, then there wouldn't be all these hangups with the human body.
              Venusmoon
              --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "She`" <shambhallah@y...>
              wrote:
              > I was talking to an aboriginal elder, Kakkib li`Dthia Warrawee'a, a
              > very sensible and mature man who lectures at several uni's and was
              on
              > his way to The Haig, (certainly not a teenager try-hard)last week
              > about his "national costume" and how said it is that he can be
              > arrested for wearing it and worse yet he could be put into an insane
              > asylum and called crazy because he was adhering to his deeply held
              > personal beliefs.
              > The aboriginal people think we are the crazy ones for wearing
              clothes
              > and feeling ashamed of our bodies.
              >
              > Recently some female aboriginal elders were arrested for performing
              a
              > traditional dance topless... it caused a big stink and apologies
              were
              > handed out quick smart.
              >
              > If you were invited to do an aboriginal dance and you refused to
              take
              > off your clothes and be body painted not only would this offend the
              > indigenous people present they would laugh and say, "Silly White
              Fella!"
              >
              > The Tibetan tradition I come from the women, even the practitioners
              > today, all go at least topless whilst practising magick, I have many
              > photos of this... They are not as glam as Fiona but beautiful none
              the
              > less.
              >
              > > Going out of
              > > one's way to be promiscous or nude seems like what teenagers
              > > call "being a try-hard."
              >
              > Its the attitude and hang ups of the offended person which needs
              > examining not the attitude of the practitioner that is at question
              > here! No one tuts at a three year old running around naked on the
              > beach. They aren't trying hard. It's just natural. And if it raises
              > issues for you, then you should deal with your own guilt not try and
              > make everyone else feel guilty. You are the one that is ashamed not
              > the child. Why make innocence feel guilt?
              >
              > > Sexual freedom surely equates to not feeling uncomfortable with
              any
              > > kind of sexuality
              >
              > -AGREED!
              >
              > > rather than going out of one's way
              > > to prove to others what an uncontrolled fertility god/dess one is.
              >
              > Most of the time, in this context, its "not out of the way"...its
              part
              > of the ritual/weekend! I went to one event in January that is
              > traditionally nearly all topless but the participants were made to
              > feel so bad by the "tutting" from a small number of firs-timers who
              > were supposedly experienced pagans, that this nearly completely
              ceased
              > to not happen... it was a very sad thing....
              >
              > BB
              > Shé
            • Pagan Pride QLD Inc.
              Back in 1997 I spent some time with I guess, the people who are the most extraordinary passion of my life which is the (gods spelling will kill me on this one)
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 4, 2004
                Back in 1997 I spent some time with I guess, the people who are the most
                extraordinary passion of my life which is the (gods spelling will kill me
                on this one) Ptjentjarra tribe at Kuta Djutu (Tutu) anyway, 25 yrs previous
                to my most extraordinary stay with them, they had come out of the wilds of
                the Central Australian desert, totally unknown ... the first thing the
                media did was ...was put clothes on them for photos!!! What a
                disgrace???... I am so ashamed at that.

                I have partaken of spear throwing, dance and kinship with these people who
                had more honour and understanding of my culture, ways and beliefs than I
                had of theirs, I was so impressed with their concept of family and humanity
                in general for which I was part of simply because I was human, nothing
                more... well as I said they have become my passion, their insight etc still
                blows me away, I have such story's that bring tears to me.

                Still it's a cultural thing and in Western culture/society clothes "maketh
                the man" in the indigenous world I have learned alot of things we take for
                granted as natural and our way of life and behaviour, they although more
                tolerant of us, can still find offensive to them and their culture. Just as
                they can be found by the tight constrains of our society offensive and
                primitive, so I guess it's all in the society and soul's perception ....
                their "spirituality" has no name it "just is" unlike ours with the i's
                dotted, the t's crossed and a way of doing things, they on the other hand
                just "walk their talk" and it's all part of everyday life. No ritual, no
                fuss they just are ....

                xxx Anji



                At 01:41 PM 5/04/2004, you wrote:
                >I was talking to an aboriginal elder, Kakkib li`Dthia Warrawee'a, a
                >very sensible and mature man who lectures at several uni's and was on
                >his way to The Haig, (certainly not a teenager try-hard)last week
                >about his "national costume" and how said it is that he can be
                >arrested for wearing it and worse yet he could be put into an insane
                >asylum and called crazy because he was adhering to his deeply held
                >personal beliefs.
                >The aboriginal people think we are the crazy ones for wearing clothes
                >and feeling ashamed of our bodies.
                >
                >Recently some female aboriginal elders were arrested for performing a
                >traditional dance topless... it caused a big stink and apologies were
                >handed out quick smart.
                >
                >If you were invited to do an aboriginal dance and you refused to take
                >off your clothes and be body painted not only would this offend the
                >indigenous people present they would laugh and say, "Silly White Fella!"
                >
                >The Tibetan tradition I come from the women, even the practitioners
                >today, all go at least topless whilst practising magick, I have many
                >photos of this... They are not as glam as Fiona but beautiful none the
                >less.
                >
                > > Going out of
                > > one's way to be promiscous or nude seems like what teenagers
                > > call "being a try-hard."
                >
                >Its the attitude and hang ups of the offended person which needs
                >examining not the attitude of the practitioner that is at question
                >here! No one tuts at a three year old running around naked on the
                >beach. They aren't trying hard. It's just natural. And if it raises
                >issues for you, then you should deal with your own guilt not try and
                >make everyone else feel guilty. You are the one that is ashamed not
                >the child. Why make innocence feel guilt?
                >
                > > Sexual freedom surely equates to not feeling uncomfortable with any
                > > kind of sexuality
                >
                >-AGREED!
                >
                > > rather than going out of one's way
                > > to prove to others what an uncontrolled fertility god/dess one is.
                >
                >Most of the time, in this context, its "not out of the way"...its part
                >of the ritual/weekend! I went to one event in January that is
                >traditionally nearly all topless but the participants were made to
                >feel so bad by the "tutting" from a small number of firs-timers who
                >were supposedly experienced pagans, that this nearly completely ceased
                >to not happen... it was a very sad thing....
                >
                >BB
                >Shé
              • Emily
                ... I completely agree with this - we learn so much about acceptable cultural and social conventions from our parents actions, so if they exhibit a healthy
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 5, 2004
                  Venusmoon wrote:

                  >there was also a talk show on the radio a
                  >couple of days ago asking if mothers walked around naked in their own
                  >homes,in front of their children, a lot of replies saying absolutely
                  >they do, then there wouldn't be all these hangups with the human body.

                  I completely agree with this - we learn so much about 'acceptable' cultural
                  and social conventions from our parents' actions, so if they exhibit a
                  healthy and accepting attitude towards the human body, their children will
                  probably pick it up. Which would be a great thing, imo.

                  Blessings,

                  Emily
                • She`
                  ... I have/do, do this... not overtly..just naturally.. we lived on 168 acres in humid tropical rainforrest where clothes were optional.... We leave the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
                    ... I have/do, do this... not overtly..just naturally.. we lived on
                    168 acres in humid tropical rainforrest where clothes were
                    optional.... We leave the bathroom doors open when in use ect ...
                    unashamed of natural things... If you live in the same house you end
                    up with very few secrets....

                    Though I must admit my boys (especially the oldest, 17), who are now
                    teenages are going through that phase of ... "Aww muuuummmm put you
                    clothes on" and I respect that too... but they have absolutly zero
                    problem with it in ritual or pagan gatherings... as they say.. "But
                    everyone's doing it there so it's different!"
                    BB
                    She`

                    --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Emily <pixiewitch@w...> wrote:
                    > Venusmoon wrote:
                    >
                    > >there was also a talk show on the radio a
                    > >couple of days ago asking if mothers walked around naked in their own
                    > >homes,in front of their children, a lot of replies saying absolutely
                    > >they do, then there wouldn't be all these hangups with the human body.
                    >
                    > I completely agree with this - we learn so much about 'acceptable'
                    cultural
                    > and social conventions from our parents' actions, so if they exhibit a
                    > healthy and accepting attitude towards the human body, their
                    children will
                    > probably pick it up. Which would be a great thing, imo.
                    >
                    > Blessings,
                    >
                    > Emily
                  • Nick C
                    Hey all, Maybe it s just my young generation with our Sagittarian Uranus and Neptune and that lovely Libran Pluto, but I personally don t link skyclad working
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
                      Hey all,

                      Maybe it's just my young generation with our Sagittarian Uranus and Neptune
                      and that lovely Libran Pluto, but I personally don't link skyclad working
                      with any kind of sexual element. The fact that I am skyclad with a whole
                      bunch of other people is the last thing on my mind when I enter a ritual.
                      Whenever I try to explain the issue of skyclad working to non-Pagans they
                      instantly either a) say "Oooh, naked romps! Where can I sign up?" or b) make
                      a comment on the use of the word "skyclad" as some kind of pretentious
                      euphemism for being naked with a whole bunch of people.

                      With regard to b) I thought the reason we have the word is because it's not
                      just being naked - it is SKYCLAD - and therefore elevate above a normal "in
                      the buff" state - it is RITUAL NUDITY for want of a better phrase, nudity
                      which has a purpose and spiritual function. It symbolises freedom and
                      openness - and dare I say it, PLPT! (Perfect Love and Perfect Trust). I am
                      sharing myself with my fellows and with the Divine - not sexually, but
                      entirely. I shed all outside trappings to be as true an expression of my
                      Self in circle as possible.

                      Certainly I have been in rituals which spontaneously exhibited a sexually
                      charged atmosphere, but we didn't all break down moaning and fornicating. It
                      is simply an "erotic" energy - maybe I'm using a more broad definition for
                      eroticism there too.

                      I think too many people mask their own body image problems - which arise
                      from society's pressures and hang-ups, not innate human nature - or their
                      own sexual frustrations by simply barring any thought of skyclad working -
                      writing it off as "sexual exhibitionism" where for me the sexual side is
                      irrelevant when you are working to open yourself psychically and connect
                      with the Divine. Certainly if you are performing a fertility rite such as
                      Beltane, you cannot separate the sexual elements of the event, but it
                      doesn't mean that everyone should be walking around with hard ons and
                      fondling eachother - and I don't think that's the assumption that should be
                      made about those who do work skyclad. It's been said a couple of times there
                      are a lot of people who are getting into Paganism because of the perception
                      that it's all about orgies. I've not encountered them yet, and for that I
                      suppose I'm thankful.

                      Working skyclad is a part of Witchcraft, whether or not you follow Gardner,
                      Sanders, or whatever other less structured Witchcraft practices. If you
                      don't want to do it - okay, and I most certainly aggree that at public
                      gatherings where it is to be utilised, there should be ample notice of the
                      intention. But I would suggest you examine your personal reasons for not
                      wanting to work skyclad. If it is practical - Winter, semi-public space, etc
                      - fine. But if you are still hung up on how you look, or you are simply
                      scared, maybe you should think about WHY you are scared and FACE your fear,
                      after all, facing fear and owning your own life is one of the many things
                      Witchcraft is for.

                      Among many other things I believe a core goal of magickal and occult
                      pracitce is to "Know Thyself" and to me (I'll emphasise "to me") that
                      extends to loving yourself for who you are, and not hiding yourself,
                      celebrating what is natural and TRUE.

                      Too many people are unwilling to examine their beliefs - and that is the
                      mark of fundamentalism IMO. Someone who believes what they believe - but has
                      no idea why. The reasons and logic behind belief are subverted by the need
                      to be "A Believer." If there can be said to be a "meaning of life", for me
                      it is learning, and that is the opposite of learning - it is passive
                      spirituality, and in my opinion has no purpose other than personal comfort,
                      which serves no one, least of all the Divine.

                      She, your story about supposedly experienced Pagans tutting the skyclad
                      working at that January gathering is exactly what I am talking about. Such
                      hang-ups should be left at the edge of the Circle because they distract not
                      just yourself from your true purpose, but the entire group involved.

                      Forgive me if I'm sounding a bit hard line here - I tend to tie myself in
                      knots trying to explain what I mean. Maybe I've ripped the lid off a can of
                      worms...

                      Nick

                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Personalise your phone with chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
                      http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
                    • venusmoon5
                      ... You are right with the boys She, I can t speak for teenage girls as I have 3 boys, one that lived with me when I divorced, and I ll never forget the day a
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
                        --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "She`" <shambhallah@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > ... I have/do, do this... not overtly..just naturally.. we lived on
                        > 168 acres in humid tropical rainforrest where clothes were
                        > optional.... We leave the bathroom doors open when in use ect ...
                        > unashamed of natural things... If you live in the same house you end
                        > up with very few secrets....
                        >
                        > Though I must admit my boys (especially the oldest, 17), who are now
                        > teenages are going through that phase of ... "Aww muuuummmm put you
                        > clothes on" and I respect that too... but they have absolutly zero
                        > problem with it in ritual or pagan gatherings... as they say.. "But
                        > everyone's doing it there so it's different!"
                        > BB
                        > She`
                        >
                        You are right with the boys She, I can't speak for teenage girls as
                        I have 3 boys, one that lived with me when I divorced, and I'll never
                        forget the day a couple of years ago, when he came home, me topless,
                        as it was so hot, he ran to his room, and locked himself in.[very
                        funny to think of now] but I still believe even though teenagers go
                        through this mum shock thing, they have essentially grown up in a
                        natural environment, not like my other two, who grew up with their
                        father and at 20 are disgusted if you bring up the word mentruation
                        or menopause, pms, etc.
                        I feel sorry for there partners, as they will have to have a more
                        open mind to femininity to stay in a healthy relationship, my
                        thoughts anyway, as for being pagan, I wish mine were, as that is one
                        of the reasons my youngest just went to live with his father, as he
                        couldn't stand my beliefs anymore,
                        Which I must say I never pushed upon him in any way, but I suppose
                        we must all walk the paths we choose, so he is free to do his thing
                        and me mine. And I must respect those decisions.
                        love Venusmoon
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