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Re: Why breed? Re: musings of the human soul

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  • kate derrick
    Hey Les!!!! ... This sounds irresponsible, if not criminal, to me. We fuck up the world and then say that s the way it is -- stop complaining. My point was
    Message 1 of 42 , Aug 12, 2005
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      Hey Les!!!!


      >People, methinks that you're just going to have to accept the way
      >the world is, ie, fucked in many ways, and quit complaining about
      >how it is all going to end.<

      This sounds irresponsible, if not criminal, to me. We fuck up the
      world and then say that's the way it is -- stop complaining.

      My point was that nature fucks up the world. We ARE a part of nature. It is not cruel or irresponsible to accept that the world is goin to end is it??? It's obvious that all life ends due to the ravages of nature at one time or another. Suffering is suffering, whether that be from greenhouse gases or being attacked by predators.

      > It's NATURE people. NOTHING lasts forever.....that's right
      >NOTHING. Except perhaps the Universe. Now that's thinking beyond
      >what our brains can fathom.. So I reckon it's a waste of brain
      >space worrying about it, because we are a part of Nature, which
      >destroys and renews itself.<

      So if Nature does it, it's okay for us to do it? When do we start the
      renewing part?

      Good question. Obviously the answer is as much as possible and right now. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed so I can't sprout off exactly what needs to be done. Obviously since 2.2 billion people on this earth have no designated place to crap, there should be less people born, or the systems should be radically changed. There are people motivated to make these changes, however, I assume that humans are too materialistic for this to really eventuate. We also conform to the expectations of society in order to be accepted and "normal".

      > If we fuck up the earth, well so be it. That was the chapter of
      >the homo sapiens. Over and out. <

      This is the attitude that allows us to fuck up Earth's biosphere. We
      humans may not intentionally fuck things up for all other life, but
      we don't seem to give much of a shit about it either. Wouldn't you
      agree?

      I would be careful here in overgeneralising. Many humans *do* "give a shit". Do other species "give a shit?" Methinks not. I don't agree because I sincerely think that most humans are "humane" and do care about the fate of the earth and its inhabitants. Most of us are simply too overwhelmed and feel helpless to do anything about it. And most are too concerned about their own security and welfare. I believe that envy is a very strong motivator unfortunately. Many people feel entitled to have what a rich man does. Wouldn't you think????

      > What....do you think it will all continue without suffering in some
      >sort of utopia if we all just quit breeding????<

      When we are gone, we won't suffer, but I don't think non-existence
      could be considered utopia. For the non-human species left when we
      are gone, you're right, they will suffer on in some sort of utopia.

      I do not agree here. I do not believe that utopia exists here on earth. I would be interested to know your definition of utopia. Certainly clean air and water are basics that humans and all creatures need to survive, but how do we measure happiness??? These things certainly are not enough to satisfy the human psyche. We need love, culture, a sense of achievement. We seem to be far more complex in our emotional lives. Does that mean we should stop reproducing-because our needs are greater than the supply??? This, I think, is the crux of the matter, wouldn't you say???

      > Can you define what the life force is?????<

      No. But when it's gone, it's definitely gone. "The quick and the dead."

      > Perhaps the life force wants to snuff itself out on earth. Who knows???<

      Possibly, but someone once wrote that "Everything that is born has an
      indefinable spark within that wills it to survive."

      Wow-you've quoted me!!! Lol. Does that make me famous???

      For us to remove
      the life force of an entire species or in this example the entire
      biosphere, and then say maybe they were asking for it, seems to me
      rather weak justification.

      C'mon-they would do the same in our position!!!

      It's not for us to decide the fate of all
      other life -- perhaps not of any other life but our own.

      Hmmm. That's your own philosophy. If you were stuck somewhere will no food except for a live cow and the only thing you had were a chainsaw, i think you just might go ahead and eat that live creature. According to some that is not immoral. I am not against vegetarianism at all, but I do believe our teeth are made to eat SOME meat. And it clearly isn't a crime if you eat that creature with respect, i believe.

      > You're concerned about the future, and therefore you choose to have
      >no children. Okay, good for you. But why are you so concerned about
      >other people's choices???<

      Other people's reproductive choices impact my life, humanity, and all
      life on Earth. Each of us, particularly in over-industrialized
      regions, has a tremendously detrimental effect on ecosystems. We
      might help people, other animals, and restore some natural areas, but
      when you add it all up we come out a negative.

      So the solution is to convince people to not breed?? Do you realise how difficult it is for your average person to adopt???

      > Life is suffering-that's a tenet of Buddhism. Get used to it.<

      But I'm not a Buddhist. If life is suffering, creating a new life is
      an act of sadism.

      I'm not a buddhist either. But I think it is wise literature-to ACCEPT suffering. Obviously, not all life is suffering and there is joy in life as well. Many find that creating a child is the greatest joy that they could ever experience. I don't condemn that.

      > There's NOTHING you or I can do. NOTHING. Life is unfair. Life
      >is tough. <

      Let's assume this is true. Why would anyone feel justified in
      bringing an innocent creature into such a life? A life of suffering
      seems an awfully dear price for two people to demonstrate their love
      for each other. Carving initials in a tree is bad enough.

      Oh please, carving initials in a tree is harmless. How are we supposed to live then?? With a guilt complex for being born and everything we do??? I do struggle in my own life, even though I am very aware that in comparison to most people on this earth, I definitely have far less to complain about. I do agree that many chosse to have children for selfish reasons. For example they expect companionship or someone to help in thier business. What I think people fail to understand is that they do not own their children. Children are not obligated to obey, or even love their parents, especially if they are being exploited or abused. A trigger point for me.

      > Everything that is born has an indefinable spark within that wills
      >it to survive.<

      Except for those who commit suicide. There are also those who
      understand the global suicide humans are engineering and say, "So
      what?" Not much will to survive among those folks.

      Ha! Quoted again!! How flattering!! Hmmm, that's a VERY intersting point. Consciouness over life force. The will is not strong enough to conquer anything-we can't even control when we die. What is "good" and "evil"? I would have thought that "good" is that which nurtures and sustains life. So of course it follows that what humans are doing to the earth is "evil". However, is choosing not to breed entirely "good" according to my theory?? Do we want to phase out that which Nature itself has scattered onto the earth in the form of us??? What would that achieve when you consider that the future will no doubt bring about its own chaos? Should we be trying to convince the other animals to not breed as well?? :)

      > So the human being fucked it up and so now has to be removed. Says who???<

      You will, if you think about it long enough. Not to put too fine a
      point on this, but we don't have to be removed, nature will take its
      course and each of us will pass on. All we have to do is stop
      replacing ourselves.

      Father, forgive the rabbits for rooting and making baby rabbits!!! For they know not what they do!! What about the rabbits Les?? What about the future of the poor suffering rabbits????

      > Those of the future will generally be glad they came into
      >existence, because as a rule, those that live are glad to be alive.
      >Even those that are born into unfortunate circumstances are
      >generally glad to be given the chance to live.<

      Perhaps so, my experience is too limited to say. Those who have never
      been born aren't complaining at all though.

      > How many people would choose to be euthanased????<

      Very few -- that implies something done to a person without their
      permission. Many terminally ill folks like having the prescription on
      hand that lets them decide when they've had enough. Here in Oregon,
      half of those who are helped by the "death with dignity" law never
      use the drugs. Having control of their death in this way goes a long
      way in making up for losing control of their life.

      > So my point is that I think it is in our nature to fight, that is
      >what our ancestors have done, and what our children will have to do
      >too. <

      Seems to be our heritage. "Lean to the left. Lean to the right. Stand
      up. Sit down. Fight, fight, fight!" Rah.

      Don't be ridiculous. I'm not suggesting war.

      > And now it is a fight FOR the environment, rather than a fight
      >AGAINST it. It is in our instincts to fight against the ravages of
      >Nature, but we need to use our cerebral energies to learn how to
      >fight FOR her.<

      Who is it that we will be fighting against for the environment?
      Pogo's most famous quote goes here.

      Um, who is Pogo????? I'm thinking that you're using your porn name. Les U Knight. It's a good one. Love in action.


      > Cut humans some slack-we haven't had much time to make the switch.
      >We are, however, aware of what we are doing to our environment. <

      True, we should all know by now, but we have to care as well.

      *snort* How are we going to take care if, as you endeavor, we are all gone????

      > I just don't think that having absolutely no children is the answer.<

      Not breeding is only part of the answer, that alone isn't enough.
      Producing one new human increases a couple's environmental impact by
      50% and easily negate all the positive efforts they might find time
      for.

      Les

      You're a stud.

      Kate


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    • Vishwas Thoke
      ... As much as 3? 2? 1?? What if we ve already reached a point where even one more of us is as much ? What then, Kate? Would you still say we should go on
      Message 42 of 42 , Aug 16, 2005
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        --- In Why_breed@yahoogroups.com, kate derrick <bunny_drac@y...> wrote:

        > How do we reduce population, Kate?
        >
        > Duh, by not breeding as much of course

        "As much" as 3? 2? 1??

        What if we've already reached a point where even one more of us is "as
        much"? What then, Kate? Would you still say we should go on
        reproducing regardless?

        We both know that we are concerned about the status of environment
        today. It's just a matter of the degree to which each of us thinks the
        environment has decayed. Probably you still feel there's some time for
        us before we start taking such drastic steps as not reproducing at
        all, but that's the eventual choice our children would have to make
        tomorrow if we didn't today.
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