Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Why breed? Re: Reasons why to breed

Expand Messages
  • Michaela Swift
      First of all i commend you for your intelligent writing Les and Rafael.   I have one question.   _Do you think God creates junk?  Fewer people to feed
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 2, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
       

      First of all i commend you for your intelligent writing Les and Rafael.
       
      I have one question.
       
      _Do you think God creates junk? 
      Fewer people to feed won't automatically end hunger but it'll make it more likely. Regions which have always exported grains are now importing them. Fish stocks are collapsing, and on and on. Seems clear to me that fewer people will be easier to feed than more people.

      Fewer people won't automatically end wars over resources, but it'll make them less likely. Rwanda's genocidal war is a good example: farmers and herders don't mix and they don't have to until there are too many of them. When the glaciers are gone and whole regions get thirsty, some people may resent those upriver not letting much water flow to them.

      Equality? Well, I think that's what's needed to improve birth rates more than the other way around, but yeah, it could help. People are more willing to cooperate when there's enough of everything and they don't have to compete for it.

      >I have no crystal ball, but I can assure you that there will be no less hunger, no less violence, no less injustice without human beings.<

      Observing ecosystems which have no humans, we will see hunger and violence, plus what we might consider injustice: ants enslave other ants, for example. Compared with our war zones, this is a fantasy world of peace and love. I think you're underestimating the amount of hunger, violence, and injustice humanity causes for itself.

      And the worst part is that almost all of it could be avoided: we're clever enough, we could reduce our density to a level supportable by Earth's biosphere, and everyone could be treated fairly. Unfortunately, Homo sapiens has evolved to keep doing what we've always done until it all collapses on us and we start over. VHEMT is the alternative.

      Les

      Michaela Swift wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Beth, Les et al.
      >
      > Let's attempt to project into the future a little. Let's consider the outcomes of our choices collectively.
      >
      > Why would your vision be a more peaceful outcome than continuing to breed?
      >
      > What exactly do you envision?
      >
      > Less violence? More food? More equality?
      >
      > I have no crystal ball, but I can assure you that there will be no less hunger, no less violence, no less injustice without human beings.
      >
      > I do not have time to elaborate.
      >
      > Peace,
      >
      > Michaela
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I know that you never said it was people's obligation to have as many children as possible. I did. That will end this scourge on the earth quickly. The planet is dying, mainly from the pollution that IS ALREADY HERE, already been created and sometimes stored, by people in the past couple of decades. Most people having 1 or 2 children, and some in the poorer parts of the world having many will increase the 3rd world population while maintaining the 1st and 2nd world's population.
      >
      > I'm not resorting to "red herrings". I simply do not hate anyone enough to support giving birth to them in this world as it is. The life of any child born anywhere - whether to nomadic tribes or to billionaires is doomed to a short, hard life. Babies, children, and adult need air, water, a climate-controlled environment. Scientists say that we are at, or a little beyond, "peak oil". This historically- high population is ONLY maintained by "cheap energy". When it goes away, population will not just "shrink back". A great deal of violence will erupt, with everyone trying to get the last few drops of oil. Evidence is for global warming NOW. It may switch to global cooling over just a few years. We need to be free from nuclear and chemical toxins, many of which are "stored", in hopes someone in the future will know how to "handle" them. The storage tanks have a finite lifespan, whereas some of these things have halflives in the billions of years.
      >
      > Homo Sapiens indeed, have as much of a right to live here as any other species. Unfortunately, we're too smart for our own good. If we were living according to natures laws, and as long as we did, we co-existed with the other species. We developed a lot of technology, which indeed made life a LOT easier. And, we had lots more children, and lots more adults, who went on to use these things, and effectively destroy the planet for all of the other species. Many have become extinct, and many more are becoming extinct DAILY. Do we, as humans, have the right to cause thousands of species to become extinct?
      >
      > I truly think you fail to grasp the gravity of the situation. Babies do not just exist to make some people feel "complete" in their relationships or their lives, or see what a combining of your own genes with those of a particular other person might produce.
      >
      > Beth
      >
      > --- In Why_breed@yahoogrou ps.com, "elisabella1983" <elisabella1983@ ...> wrote:
      >> You know very well that I never said it's people's obligation to have as many children as possible.
      >>
      >> Whatever I might think of your cause, I feel you do it a disservice by resorting to red herrings and hyperbole to defend it.
      >>
      >> --- In Why_breed@yahoogrou ps.com, "beth_h8" <beth_h8@> wrote:
      >>> WHAT future generations? ???? The number of human beings on this planet will start pulling apart at the seams if we get just another couple of billion people on it! At the present rate, that "couple of billion" people will be here before a baby born today becomes 18.
      >>>
      >>> Breed on! It's not only your right, it's your OBLIGATION. Have as many children as you possibly can, naturally or using artificial methods.
      >>>
      >>> I used to think that things could be reversed if we stopped or even reversed population growth. I think it's too late now, even if "by magic" we could reduce the population of the earth to 500 million overnight, without any dead bodies around, which would pose yet another health risk to the living. Now, there's too much damage that's already been done by those who are here now. The way to minimize the suffering, at this point, is to have as many BAYBEEZ as possible, as fast as possible, until the 20 billion is reached, then, POOF. It doesn't matter what technological or sociological assumptions you make. The debate is whether or not there will be enough people in any one place to make for a large enough gene pool to continue, or whether humans will become outright extinct. Either way, most of the animal population will have become extinct, and many plant species.
      >>>
      >>> --- In Why_breed@yahoogrou ps.com, "elisabella1983" <elisabella1983@ > wrote:
      >>>> I'm assuming this is where to post about why to breed, that's what it says on the website. First off, I want to clarify that I'm not saying people *should* breed or trying to enforce having babies, just defending the right to breed and why I think it's a good thing to choose it.
      >>>>
      >>>> As far as personal reasons go - having a child is the ultimate way to consummate the relationship between husband and wife. A child is a living, breathing symbol of the relationship - it has half of the father's genes, half of the mother's genes, and is raised with the combined values of both. It's an artistic collaboration between a man, a woman, and God.
      >>>>
      >>>> Regarding general reasons - homo sapien is a species of this planet and has just as right to be here as any other species. We're a native life form here, the same as the species we're making extinct, and if I had to choose between my own species going extinct or another species, I'd sacrifice the other for my own. You replied to a similar response like this on your website with "House cats seem to have this same perspective on life," but I notice you don't say house cats should be non-bred to extinction either. I'm guessing you have some sort of deep self loathing that would make you want to eradicate your own species.
      >>>>
      >>>> My only consolation is that since people who feel the way you do won't be having any children, that self loathing won't be taught to any future generations.
      >>>>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
      > Get started: http://local. yahoo.com. au
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
      >
      > VHEMT Volunteers and Supporters may subscribe to http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Voluntary_ Human_Extinction
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >



      Messages in this topic (9) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
      Messages
      VHEMT Volunteers and Supporters may subscribe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Voluntary_Human_Extinction



      Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
      Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
      Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
      Recent ActivityVisit Your Group
      Give Back
      Yahoo! for Good
      Get inspired
      by a good cause.
      Y! Toolbar
      Get it Free!
      easy 1-click access
      to your groups.
      Yahoo! Groups
      Start a group
      in 3 easy steps.
      Connect with others.
      .

      __,_.._,___


      __________________________________________________________________________________
      Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
      Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Les Knight
      Michaela, you asked: Do you think God creates junk? Which god? There are lots of them, y know. A world in which there will be no less hunger, no less
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 2, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Michaela, you asked: "Do you think God creates junk?"

        Which god? There are lots of them, y'know.

        A world in which "there will be no less hunger, no less violence, no less injustice without human beings," may not be junk but it sure could use some improvements.

        Les
      • Michaela Swift
        ________________________________ From: Les Knight To: Why_breed@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 2 September, 2009 11:14:52 PM Subject: Why
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 2, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          ________________________________
          From: Les Knight <les@...>
          To: Why_breed@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, 2 September, 2009 11:14:52 PM
          Subject: Why breed? Re: Reasons why to breed

           
          Michaela, you asked: "Do you think God creates junk?"

          Which god? There are lots of them, y'know.
          -In fact, there is only one supreme God and the rest are angels and fallen angels.  There IS such a thing as good and evil. Those forces exist.

          A world in which "there will be no less hunger, no less violence, no less injustice without human beings," may not be junk but it sure could use some improvements.

          - No, God does not create junk and who are you to "improve" upon it when you cannot even create anything? To believe that there is junk in creation reeks of Nazism to me. Instead of one particular "race" ie Jews being demonised, you hate yourself and your entire species. Some sort of sado-masochism?
          Have a good day.
           
          Michaela
          Les




          __________________________________________________________________________________
          Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
          Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • korhag
          junk? It s rarely a clear choice between good and evil. Often it s the lesser of two evils, or the greater of two goods. junk? there are a lot of annoyances,
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 2, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            junk?
            It's rarely a clear choice between good and evil. Often it's the lesser of two evils, or the greater of two goods.
            junk?
            there are a lot of annoyances, like mosquitos, even if they're not carrying yellow fever.
            junk?
            of all the many planets, the majority seem to be empty. In fact we only suspect life on other planets with no supporting evidence. Seems like junk to me.
            junk?
            supposing that God, the invisible omnipotent man, is real, is a pointless exercise which makes no difference what so ever.

            --- In Why_breed@yahoogroups.com, Michaela Swift <wildpeacechild@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Les Knight <les@...>
            > To: Why_breed@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, 2 September, 2009 11:14:52 PM
            > Subject: Why breed? Re: Reasons why to breed
            >
            >  
            > Michaela, you asked: "Do you think God creates junk?"
            >
            > Which god? There are lots of them, y'know.
            > -In fact, there is only one supreme God and the rest are angels and fallen angels.  There IS such a thing as good and evil. Those forces exist.
            >
            > A world in which "there will be no less hunger, no less violence, no less injustice without human beings," may not be junk but it sure could use some improvements.
            >
            > - No, God does not create junk and who are you to "improve" upon it when you cannot even create anything? To believe that there is junk in creation reeks of Nazism to me. Instead of one particular "race" ie Jews being demonised, you hate yourself and your entire species. Some sort of sado-masochism?
            > Have a good day.
            >  
            > Michaela
            > Les
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________________________________________
            > Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
            > Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • korhag
            junk? It s rarely a clear choice between good and evil. Often it s the lesser of two evils, or the greater of two goods. junk? there are a lot of annoyances,
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 2, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              junk?
              It's rarely a clear choice between good and evil. Often it's the lesser of two evils, or the greater of two goods.
              junk?
              there are a lot of annoyances, like mosquitos, even if they're not carrying yellow fever.
              junk?
              of all the many planets, the majority seem to be empty. In fact we only suspect life on other planets with no supporting evidence. Seems like junk to me.
              junk?
              supposing that God, the invisible omnipotent man, is real, is a pointless exercise which makes no difference what so ever.


              --- In Why_breed@yahoogroups.com, Michaela Swift <wildpeacechild@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              > First of all i commend you for your intelligent writing Les and Rafael.
              >  
              > I have one question.
              >  
              > _Do you think God creates junk? 
            • Michaela Swift
              ________________________________   Thank-you for answering my post. You said: junk? It s rarely a clear choice between good and evil. Often it s the lesser
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 4, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                ________________________________


                  Thank-you for answering my post.
                You said:
                "junk?"
                "It's rarely a clear choice between good and evil. Often it's the lesser of two evils, or the greater of two goods."
                - I asked the question because it is indeed a matter of values.  Do you value human life?  Either you value it as good or evil or somewhere in between.  I believe that humanity is fundamentally good and any deviations from goodness is sickness. I think human life is meaningful. We're souls having a human experience.

                "junk?
                there are a lot of annoyances, like mosquitos, even if they're not carrying yellow fever."
                - I believe human beings are superior to mosquitos, simple values.  Our species has potential in that we are aware of our problems. What say you about a humanless world? I would think it quite dull. But then super mutant mozzies might be interesting.
                 
                You said:
                "junk?
                of all the many planets, the majority seem to be empty. In fact we only suspect life on other planets with no supporting evidence. Seems like junk to me."
                -wow, I would perceive the rarity of earthlings to be something of immeasurable value for precisely those reasons. 
                "junk?
                supposing that God, the invisible omnipotent man, is real, is a pointless exercise which makes no difference what so ever."
                 - I believe God to be  Spirit and not a man.  I'm not so sure about angels and fallen angels - sort of pulled that out of my arse according to basic Christian teachings.  I yearn to see a more unified world where religion plays a more subtle role.  No man, no madness - I absolutely agree.  HOWEVER, the fact that we are discussing this dilemma is exciting, don't you think?
                I have searched and searched and SEARCHED for answers.  Meaning of life and all that. I FERVENTLY hope the world will  change. Fervently hope that *I* can change.  In the end - amongst all the craziness - you just have to listen to your inner voice.  You have to believe in yourself. 
                Vhemt envisages a peaceful future.  Healthy biosphere equals peace? How would you define peace?  That's my question.. How do you define peace? Try defining love while you're at it. I think acceptance is crucial to understanding love.  Acceptance and freedom.
                No one has all the answers. In fact, I think it would be boring without mystery.
                Actually, some writer, I think George Bernard Shaw said that heaven on earth would be intolerable.  Perhaps we just need that bit of drama!
                What about 2012?  I am very interested to know what's going to happen!  Perhaps even just the belief of something happening will inspire us to change. One shouldn't underestimate the power of culture.
                 
                Peace out,
                 
                Michaela
                --- In Why_breed@yahoogrou ps.com, Michaela Swift <wildpeacechild@ ...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                > First of all i commend you for your intelligent writing Les and Rafael.
                >  
                > I have one question.
                >  
                > _Do you think God creates junk? 





                __________________________________________________________________________________
                Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • beth_h8
                Do you have any evidence that the god of any particular culture is the TRUE God, and gods of any other culture are angels and fallen angels? Can you be sure
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 9, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Do you have any evidence that the god of any particular culture is the TRUE God, and gods of any other culture are angels and fallen angels? Can you be sure that the god you follow is not a asura (demon) in the Hindu pantheon? How can you be sure that all of these are not "false" to a worshiper of Quetzalcoatl?

                  Even though I cannot create life, as part of that life, I can observe improvements that could be made in any such "intelligent creation". I can criticize it. If God dislikes my refutations, he is welcome to somehow PROVE his existence to me. If God cannot explain reasons, and just punishes someone for questioning something very obvious, that God is an arbitrary bully. For a God who dislikes sex except under some circumstances, he sure did make a lot of it! If God does not like suffering, God created a lot of suffering. In an overpopulated world that is certain to have a lot of human suffering and human starvation simply because there are not enough resources, including food, it is ludicrous to believe that God wants you (and everyone) to "be fruitful and multiply". Of course, only if you are validly married.

                  There is PLENTY of "junk" in the world. There are people who society rids itself of in whatever way - from the criminally insane to habitual criminals. To use the word "Nazi" to denigrate such a stance is to make light of the people victimized by Nazi-ism. MANY more than Jews were targets. The Nazi regime was very pro-breeding of Arian (blond, blue-eyed) children. The German government was a major distributor of porn, to ensure lots of breeding. It would be less of a stretch in saying that the "pro-breeding" crowd reeks of Nazism than to say that those who see some "junk" in the world are Nazis.

                  Beth

                  --- In Why_breed@yahoogroups.com, Michaela Swift <wildpeacechild@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Les Knight <les@...>
                  > To: Why_breed@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, 2 September, 2009 11:14:52 PM
                  > Subject: Why breed? Re: Reasons why to breed
                  >
                  >  
                  > Michaela, you asked: "Do you think God creates junk?"
                  >
                  > Which god? There are lots of them, y'know.
                  > -In fact, there is only one supreme God and the rest are angels and fallen angels.  There IS such a thing as good and evil. Those forces exist.
                  >
                  > A world in which "there will be no less hunger, no less violence, no less injustice without human beings," may not be junk but it sure could use some improvements.
                  >
                  > - No, God does not create junk and who are you to "improve" upon it when you cannot even create anything? To believe that there is junk in creation reeks of Nazism to me. Instead of one particular "race" ie Jews being demonised, you hate yourself and your entire species. Some sort of sado-masochism?
                  > Have a good day.
                  >  
                  > Michaela
                  > Les
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________________________________________
                  > Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                  > Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • beth_h8
                  My comments in bright pink below. ... lesser of two evils, or the greater of two goods. ... you value human life? Either you value it as good or evil or
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 9, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    My comments in bright pink below.

                    --- In Why_breed@yahoogroups.com, Michaela Swift <wildpeacechild@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank-you for answering my post.
                    > You said:
                    > "junk?"
                    > "It's rarely a clear choice between good and evil. Often it's the
                    lesser of two evils, or the greater of two goods."
                    > - I asked the question because it is indeed a matter of values. Do
                    you value human life? Either you value it as good or evil or somewhere
                    in between. I believe that humanity is fundamentally good and any
                    deviations from goodness is sickness. I think human life is meaningful.
                    We're souls having a human experience.
                    Human life is good. As in many things in nature, a little of something
                    is good, whereas a lot of it is bad. Such is the case of invasive
                    species - species brought into somewhere from somewhere else, which has
                    no natural enemies in its new home. Having no natural enemies, these
                    plants or animals overwhelm the environment, crowding out many of the
                    naturally occurring species there. Human life has overpopulated, and it
                    has virtually no natural enemies.

                    What does human life mean? To who or what? Is it meaningful to a
                    starving person in Africa? Is it meaningful to see a 2-week old baby die
                    of diarrhea because of contaminated water? What is this "soul" thing
                    anyway? Where is it located, what does it weigh, and how was this
                    ascertained? I'll suggest that your conscience is a function of your
                    brain. It'll stop when your brain stops, which is usually at death.
                    Again, I'll ask what does life mean? In 3000 years, who will know or
                    care that you or I ever existed.
                    >
                    > "junk?
                    > there are a lot of annoyances, like mosquitos, even if they're not
                    carrying yellow fever."
                    > - I believe human beings are superior to mosquitos, simple values.
                    Our species has potential in that we are aware of our problems. What say
                    you about a humanless world? I would think it quite dull. But then super
                    mutant mozzies might be interesting.
                    Mosquitoes do not get usually seem to torture other mosquitoes. There is
                    no such thing as "poverty" or "wealth" among mosquitoes. Granted, some
                    creatures such as ants, enslave other ants. Most animals hunt and
                    quickly kill and eat their prey. They do not keep it alive for fun, at
                    least not for long.
                    >
                    > You said:
                    > "junk?
                    > of all the many planets, the majority seem to be empty. In fact we
                    only suspect life on other planets with no supporting evidence. Seems
                    like junk to me."
                    > -wow, I would perceive the rarity of earthlings to be something of
                    immeasurable value for precisely those reasons.
                    Earthlings are only on Earth, just as Germans are only in Germany. You
                    would be saying, "Wow, this is SPECIAL", if you were on some planet near
                    Alpha Centari or in Andromeda about how special it is, and how you are
                    so "lucky" to be on the planet you are on.

                    There are theories that planets are very common in the universe, and
                    life on planets is also quite common. We cannot know, for sure, at this
                    time.
                    > "junk?
                    > supposing that God, the invisible omnipotent man, is real, is a
                    pointless exercise which makes no difference what so ever."
                    > - I believe God to be Spirit and not a man. I'm not so sure about
                    angels and fallen angels - sort of pulled that out of my arse according
                    to basic Christian teachings. I yearn to see a more unified world where
                    religion plays a more subtle role. No man, no madness - I absolutely
                    agree. HOWEVER, the fact that we are discussing this dilemma is
                    exciting, don't you think?

                    > I have searched and searched and SEARCHED for answers. Meaning of
                    life and all that. I FERVENTLY hope the world will change. Fervently
                    hope that *I* can change. In the end - amongst all the craziness - you
                    just have to listen to your inner voice. You have to believe in
                    yourself.

                    I hope I will win the lottery also. I think that is a higher probability
                    occurrence than hoping the world will change. Humans are selfish because
                    of how we evolved, and we will stay that way. We will continue to try to
                    selfishly ensure our genes are passed on by putting as many as we can
                    out there. The result though will be that humans die out from
                    overpopulation, just as bacteria overgrown in a petri dish die in their
                    own waste matter. The question is how much of the rest of life on this
                    planet, or even the planet itself, do we take with us when we die out?

                    I believe my "inner voice". It says that creating more lives on this
                    planet is foolish and cruel. There is a difference between loving and
                    believing in yourself and others and having a delusion that everything
                    will magically change so that everyone and everything lives in harmony.
                    The reality is that life feeds on life. Life of any type requires some
                    chemical substances. In the case of humans, that includes water, air,
                    and carbohydrates and proteins. Our ability to grow food will diminish
                    drastically as oil production diminishes - we are at or just beyond
                    "Peak Oil". (Google it) There are too many human beings, and are taking
                    too much of the environment, and polluting it with our waste products -
                    which include the chemical leavings of petrolium and coal and assorted
                    other things. Like the bacteria in the petri dish, our environment is
                    getting too full of our wastes to sustain us.
                    > Vhemt envisages a peaceful future. Healthy biosphere equals peace?
                    How would you define peace? That's my question.. How do you define
                    peace? Try defining love while you're at it. I think acceptance is
                    crucial to understanding love. Acceptance and freedom.
                    You can't have freedom when the planet nears its carrying capacity.
                    Humanity will have to be regimented and highly managed, along with all
                    production.
                    > No one has all the answers. In fact, I think it would be boring
                    without mystery.
                    > Actually, some writer, I think George Bernard Shaw said that heaven on
                    earth would be intolerable. Perhaps we just need that bit of drama!
                    > What about 2012? I am very interested to know what's going to happen!
                    Perhaps even just the belief of something happening will inspire us to
                    change. One shouldn't underestimate the power of culture.
                    I predict that a ball will fall in Times Square in 2012. I also predict
                    that nothing extraordinary will occur besides that which is obviously
                    man made. Wars will start and wars will end. Economies will grow and
                    economies will collapse. People will sicken and die and more people will
                    be born. We won't have major catastrophes from something called "Planet
                    X"; it will not have a significant gravitational pull on earth - no more
                    than Mars currently has. Nor are Jesus, Elvis, the Secret masters of
                    the Universe, a hoard of demons, or anything else with sentience be on
                    it.
                    >
                    > Peace out,
                    >
                    > Michaela
                    > --- In Why_breed@yahoogrou ps.com, Michaela Swift <wildpeacechild@
                    ...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > First of all i commend you for your intelligent writing Les and
                    Rafael.
                    > >
                    > > I have one question.
                    > >
                    > > _Do you think God creates junk?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ________________________________________________________________________\
                    __________
                    > Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                    > Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • korhag
                    I wish they were in bright pink still black on white on my screen
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 9, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I wish they were in bright pink
                      still black on white on my screen

                      --- In Why_breed@yahoogroups.com, "beth_h8" <beth_h8@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > My comments in bright pink below.
                      >
                      > --- In Why_breed@yahoogroups.com, Michaela Swift <wildpeacechild@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Thank-you for answering my post.
                      > > You said:
                      > > "junk?"
                      > > "It's rarely a clear choice between good and evil. Often it's the
                      > lesser of two evils, or the greater of two goods."
                      > > - I asked the question because it is indeed a matter of values. Do
                      > you value human life? Either you value it as good or evil or somewhere
                      > in between. I believe that humanity is fundamentally good and any
                      > deviations from goodness is sickness. I think human life is meaningful.
                      > We're souls having a human experience.
                      > Human life is good. As in many things in nature, a little of something
                      > is good, whereas a lot of it is bad. Such is the case of invasive
                      > species - species brought into somewhere from somewhere else, which has
                      > no natural enemies in its new home. Having no natural enemies, these
                      > plants or animals overwhelm the environment, crowding out many of the
                      > naturally occurring species there. Human life has overpopulated, and it
                      > has virtually no natural enemies.
                      >
                      > What does human life mean? To who or what? Is it meaningful to a
                      > starving person in Africa? Is it meaningful to see a 2-week old baby die
                      > of diarrhea because of contaminated water? What is this "soul" thing
                      > anyway? Where is it located, what does it weigh, and how was this
                      > ascertained? I'll suggest that your conscience is a function of your
                      > brain. It'll stop when your brain stops, which is usually at death.
                      > Again, I'll ask what does life mean? In 3000 years, who will know or
                      > care that you or I ever existed.
                      > >
                      > > "junk?
                      > > there are a lot of annoyances, like mosquitos, even if they're not
                      > carrying yellow fever."
                      > > - I believe human beings are superior to mosquitos, simple values.
                      > Our species has potential in that we are aware of our problems. What say
                      > you about a humanless world? I would think it quite dull. But then super
                      > mutant mozzies might be interesting.
                      > Mosquitoes do not get usually seem to torture other mosquitoes. There is
                      > no such thing as "poverty" or "wealth" among mosquitoes. Granted, some
                      > creatures such as ants, enslave other ants. Most animals hunt and
                      > quickly kill and eat their prey. They do not keep it alive for fun, at
                      > least not for long.
                      > >
                      > > You said:
                      > > "junk?
                      > > of all the many planets, the majority seem to be empty. In fact we
                      > only suspect life on other planets with no supporting evidence. Seems
                      > like junk to me."
                      > > -wow, I would perceive the rarity of earthlings to be something of
                      > immeasurable value for precisely those reasons.
                      > Earthlings are only on Earth, just as Germans are only in Germany. You
                      > would be saying, "Wow, this is SPECIAL", if you were on some planet near
                      > Alpha Centari or in Andromeda about how special it is, and how you are
                      > so "lucky" to be on the planet you are on.
                      >
                      > There are theories that planets are very common in the universe, and
                      > life on planets is also quite common. We cannot know, for sure, at this
                      > time.
                      > > "junk?
                      > > supposing that God, the invisible omnipotent man, is real, is a
                      > pointless exercise which makes no difference what so ever."
                      > > - I believe God to be Spirit and not a man. I'm not so sure about
                      > angels and fallen angels - sort of pulled that out of my arse according
                      > to basic Christian teachings. I yearn to see a more unified world where
                      > religion plays a more subtle role. No man, no madness - I absolutely
                      > agree. HOWEVER, the fact that we are discussing this dilemma is
                      > exciting, don't you think?
                      >
                      > > I have searched and searched and SEARCHED for answers. Meaning of
                      > life and all that. I FERVENTLY hope the world will change. Fervently
                      > hope that *I* can change. In the end - amongst all the craziness - you
                      > just have to listen to your inner voice. You have to believe in
                      > yourself.
                      >
                      > I hope I will win the lottery also. I think that is a higher probability
                      > occurrence than hoping the world will change. Humans are selfish because
                      > of how we evolved, and we will stay that way. We will continue to try to
                      > selfishly ensure our genes are passed on by putting as many as we can
                      > out there. The result though will be that humans die out from
                      > overpopulation, just as bacteria overgrown in a petri dish die in their
                      > own waste matter. The question is how much of the rest of life on this
                      > planet, or even the planet itself, do we take with us when we die out?
                      >
                      > I believe my "inner voice". It says that creating more lives on this
                      > planet is foolish and cruel. There is a difference between loving and
                      > believing in yourself and others and having a delusion that everything
                      > will magically change so that everyone and everything lives in harmony.
                      > The reality is that life feeds on life. Life of any type requires some
                      > chemical substances. In the case of humans, that includes water, air,
                      > and carbohydrates and proteins. Our ability to grow food will diminish
                      > drastically as oil production diminishes - we are at or just beyond
                      > "Peak Oil". (Google it) There are too many human beings, and are taking
                      > too much of the environment, and polluting it with our waste products -
                      > which include the chemical leavings of petrolium and coal and assorted
                      > other things. Like the bacteria in the petri dish, our environment is
                      > getting too full of our wastes to sustain us.
                      > > Vhemt envisages a peaceful future. Healthy biosphere equals peace?
                      > How would you define peace? That's my question.. How do you define
                      > peace? Try defining love while you're at it. I think acceptance is
                      > crucial to understanding love. Acceptance and freedom.
                      > You can't have freedom when the planet nears its carrying capacity.
                      > Humanity will have to be regimented and highly managed, along with all
                      > production.
                      > > No one has all the answers. In fact, I think it would be boring
                      > without mystery.
                      > > Actually, some writer, I think George Bernard Shaw said that heaven on
                      > earth would be intolerable. Perhaps we just need that bit of drama!
                      > > What about 2012? I am very interested to know what's going to happen!
                      > Perhaps even just the belief of something happening will inspire us to
                      > change. One shouldn't underestimate the power of culture.
                      > I predict that a ball will fall in Times Square in 2012. I also predict
                      > that nothing extraordinary will occur besides that which is obviously
                      > man made. Wars will start and wars will end. Economies will grow and
                      > economies will collapse. People will sicken and die and more people will
                      > be born. We won't have major catastrophes from something called "Planet
                      > X"; it will not have a significant gravitational pull on earth - no more
                      > than Mars currently has. Nor are Jesus, Elvis, the Secret masters of
                      > the Universe, a hoard of demons, or anything else with sentience be on
                      > it.
                      > >
                      > > Peace out,
                      > >
                      > > Michaela
                      > > --- In Why_breed@yahoogrou ps.com, Michaela Swift <wildpeacechild@
                      > ...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > First of all i commend you for your intelligent writing Les and
                      > Rafael.
                      > > >
                      > > > I have one question.
                      > > >
                      > > > _Do you think God creates junk?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > ________________________________________________________________________\
                      > __________
                      > > Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                      > > Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.