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Human extinction

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  • jmsilv
    I don t care about nature. If you check the universe you will find that most planets are baren and without life. Earth should be that way as well. That s why I
    Message 1 of 21 , May 2 12:43 AM
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      I don't care about nature. If you check the universe you will find
      that most planets are baren and without life. Earth should be that
      way as well. That's why I don't care what I do. Eventually everything
      is gonna be extinct, including humans. So screw all the animals on
      earth. I would kill a thousand lions to feed one child and i would
      make them extinct and i wouldnt care a bit. the future is death for
      all. So lets destroy all the animals on our planet and be the last
      ones standing. Eventually will die too. But who will be here to care?
    • Les U. Knight
      jmsilv asks, But who will be here to care? As you have clearly demonstrated, just being here doesn t mean we ll care. You speak well for the necessary
      Message 2 of 21 , May 2 6:36 AM
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        jmsilv asks, "But who will be here to care?"

        As you have clearly demonstrated, just being here doesn't mean we'll care.

        You speak well for the necessary extinction of humanity.

        Les
      • Gary
        and you speak well to the need of birth control... too bad the parents of all the ninnies in this sad group failed to practice birth control before you and
        Message 3 of 21 , May 2 8:14 AM
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          and you speak well to the need of birth control... too bad the parents of
          all the ninnies in this sad group failed to practice birth control before
          you and your ilk were conceived!
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Les U. Knight [mailto:les@...]
          Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 6:37 AM
          To: Why_VHEMT@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Why VHEMT? Human extinction


          jmsilv asks, "But who will be here to care?"

          As you have clearly demonstrated, just being here doesn't mean we'll care.

          You speak well for the necessary extinction of humanity.

          Les


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • kjquen@psnw.com
          jmsilv & Gary wrote: [but it s not worth repeating] ... Take heart, Les. Some just don t seem to get it. But that s their problem, not yours. Thought you might
          Message 4 of 21 , May 2 9:25 AM
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            jmsilv & Gary wrote:
            [but it's not worth repeating]

            Les wrote:
            > You speak well for the necessary extinction of humanity.

            Take heart, Les. Some just don't seem to get it. But that's
            their problem, not yours.

            Thought you might like this:
            http://heritage.stsci.edu/gallery/galindex.html
            K
          • lesuknight
            Gary, you re right about the need for contraception.It wasn t long ago that only married people could get it, and it wasn t always effective. The Pill was only
            Message 5 of 21 , May 2 9:36 AM
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              Gary, you're right about the need for contraception.It wasn't long
              ago that only married people could get it, and it wasn't always
              effective. The Pill was only indtroduced in about 1965, and abortion
              wasn't legalized throughout the US until 1973. People are still
              encouraged to breed, though we have too many already.

              Birth control isn't retroactive, so the damage of our parents is
              done. At least we can make sure we don't continue the cycle.

              Les
            • kjquen@psnw.com
              ... The desire to reproduce: is it innate, genetic or the product of conditioning? K
              Message 6 of 21 , May 2 10:15 AM
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                lesuknight wrote:
                >
                > People are still
                > encouraged to breed, though we have too many already.
                >
                > Birth control isn't retroactive, so the damage of our parents is
                > done. At least we can make sure we don't continue the cycle.

                The desire to reproduce: is it innate, genetic or the product
                of conditioning?
                K
              • Rawb Stryker
                ... When organisms first came out (as simple replicator molecules) reproduction was simply a chemical reaction that happened. The molecules it happened to
                Message 7 of 21 , May 2 10:48 AM
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                  > The desire to reproduce: is it innate, genetic or the product
                  > of conditioning?
                  > K


                  When organisms first came out (as simple replicator
                  molecules) reproduction was simply a chemical reaction that happened. The
                  molecules it happened to didnt care, weren't conscious, etc.

                  I believe reproduction works the same as different organisms survival
                  mechanisms. In the beginning, the molecules survived simply by not
                  breaking down... a moleculer form that was stable lasted longer, hence
                  survival. As organisms became slightly more complex so did their survival
                  mechanisms, now instead of being purely chemical it was programmed into
                  their genes how to react when it senses predators, etc. The programming
                  LED to the chemical reactions, but if the genetic programming wasnt there,
                  reproduction wouldnt just 'occur', nor would survival. This was a big
                  change from the past where a stable replicator could just survive
                  naturally and could also reproduce naturally without doing anything and
                  without being programmed for anything.

                  Finally a second major change occurred. Instead of everything being
                  programmed, hard-coded, into the organisms by way of genes, the genes
                  started giving general directions and a few specifics. The sense of orgasm
                  is good... so anything that makes you orgasm must be good... do it
                  more. Eating food is good, so eat food. The body chemically rewards the
                  organism when it does something the genes say are beneficial. This is like
                  a hybrid... The genes do mandate some things, but its not all 100%
                  reaction. There is some thought process. This is the same with
                  reproduction as it is with survival as a whole. The genes say pain is bad
                  so if you felt pain, don't do what you did again. Small general directions
                  instead of listing 8043267 possibilities in the genetic code.

                  Organisms still got even more complex. They began to develop into social
                  groups like whales and humans. Now a lot of the influence was from
                  society... a LOT. Even in things like cougars and birds, social
                  interaction with their parents teaches a lot. A lot is dictated by
                  genetics with them, but a lot is social too. In these higher level
                  organisms, however, it becomes predominately culture that takes
                  over. There are still some genetic reflexes, like orgasm is good... but
                  all we notice is that it feels good. Our biological impulse is to achieve
                  orgasm... (they're fun, right?) The social force is to breed and expand
                  the church and make more of gods children and all that rubbish, or to have
                  kids and spend your money to support the consumeristic and consumptionist
                  economy... or to support the starving kids in afghanistan and
                  ethiopia. These are all social forces, none biological. Biologically,
                  orgasm is quite enough.

                  So for humans, I'd have to say its almost entirely the product of social
                  conditioning... of course a tribe or society who didnt have the desire to
                  breed would quickly die out... not quickly, but definitely after a
                  generation. Or rather, it wouldnt exist to begin with because they had to
                  have been born somewhere that had a desire to breed, because if it didnt
                  they wouldnt be born... and then <insert circular logic>

                  I'm done I guess...

                  -rawb
                • kjquen@psnw.com
                  e*hem....thank you. :) Maybe I should have prefaced my question, or asked it somewhat differently... The desire for orgasm has little or nothing to do with the
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 2 11:46 AM
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                    e*hem....thank you. :) Maybe I should have prefaced my
                    question, or asked it somewhat differently...

                    The desire for orgasm has little or nothing to do with the
                    desire to have a child. Certainly animals aren't thinking
                    about having babies and preserving future generations when
                    they breed. And I don't think early humans ever were either.
                    You would certainly think that by now, or long before now,
                    education and common sense would cancel out any warm fuzzy
                    feelings and desires about having babies. It apparently
                    doesn't. So, again....
                    > > The desire to reproduce: is it innate, genetic or the product
                    > > of conditioning?

                    It seems the answer MAY be close to when
                    Rawb Stryker wrote:
                    < big snip>
                    >....it becomes predominately culture that takes
                    > over. There are still some genetic reflexes, like orgasm is good... but
                    > all we notice is that it feels good. Our biological impulse is to achieve
                    > orgasm... (they're fun, right?) The social force is to breed and expand
                    > the church and make more of gods children and all that rubbish, or to have
                    > kids and spend your money to support the consumeristic and consumptionist...

                    But why hasn't education and common sense prevailed by now,
                    earth wide? We all know orgasm is still possible without
                    having to reproduce too. But humans continue to mindlessly
                    reproduce!

                    It simply boggles my mind.
                    K
                  • Gary
                    Are you all going to tell your mothers, Happy Mpther s Day Mom! and Thanks for bringing me into this world! or are you going to just curse her for helping
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 2 5:06 PM
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                      Are you all going to tell your mothers, "Happy Mpther's Day Mom!" and
                      "Thanks for bringing me into this world!" or are you going to just curse
                      her for helping to destroy the earth by indeed raising your sorry asses?
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: kjquen@... [mailto:kjquen@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:26 AM
                      To: Why_VHEMT@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: Why VHEMT? Human extinction


                      jmsilv & Gary wrote:
                      [but it's not worth repeating]

                      Les wrote:
                      > You speak well for the necessary extinction of humanity.

                      Take heart, Les. Some just don't seem to get it. But that's
                      their problem, not yours.

                      Thought you might like this:
                      http://heritage.stsci.edu/gallery/galindex.html
                      K

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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Gary
                      or could it be something as simple as LOVE? A condition I am sure this group has never felt nor experianced! ... From: kjquen@psnw.com
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 2 5:06 PM
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                        or could it be something as simple as LOVE? A condition I am sure this
                        group has never felt nor experianced!
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: kjquen@... [mailto:kjquen@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:15 AM
                        To: Why_VHEMT@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: Why VHEMT? Human extinction


                        lesuknight wrote:
                        >
                        > People are still
                        > encouraged to breed, though we have too many already.
                        >
                        > Birth control isn't retroactive, so the damage of our parents is
                        > done. At least we can make sure we don't continue the cycle.

                        The desire to reproduce: is it innate, genetic or the product
                        of conditioning?
                        K

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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Gary
                        another brain fart from rawb, how pathetic can you get? ... From: Rawb Stryker [mailto:rjs3356@osfmail.isc.rit.edu] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:48 AM To:
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 2 5:06 PM
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                          another brain fart from rawb, how pathetic can you get?
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Rawb Stryker [mailto:rjs3356@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:48 AM
                          To: Why_VHEMT@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: Why VHEMT? Human extinction



                          > The desire to reproduce: is it innate, genetic or the product
                          > of conditioning?
                          > K


                          When organisms first came out (as simple replicator
                          molecules) reproduction was simply a chemical reaction that happened. The
                          molecules it happened to didnt care, weren't conscious, etc.

                          I believe reproduction works the same as different organisms survival
                          mechanisms. In the beginning, the molecules survived simply by not
                          breaking down... a moleculer form that was stable lasted longer, hence
                          survival. As organisms became slightly more complex so did their survival
                          mechanisms, now instead of being purely chemical it was programmed into
                          their genes how to react when it senses predators, etc. The programming
                          LED to the chemical reactions, but if the genetic programming wasnt there,
                          reproduction wouldnt just 'occur', nor would survival. This was a big
                          change from the past where a stable replicator could just survive
                          naturally and could also reproduce naturally without doing anything and
                          without being programmed for anything.

                          Finally a second major change occurred. Instead of everything being
                          programmed, hard-coded, into the organisms by way of genes, the genes
                          started giving general directions and a few specifics. The sense of orgasm
                          is good... so anything that makes you orgasm must be good... do it
                          more. Eating food is good, so eat food. The body chemically rewards the
                          organism when it does something the genes say are beneficial. This is like
                          a hybrid... The genes do mandate some things, but its not all 100%
                          reaction. There is some thought process. This is the same with
                          reproduction as it is with survival as a whole. The genes say pain is bad
                          so if you felt pain, don't do what you did again. Small general directions
                          instead of listing 8043267 possibilities in the genetic code.

                          Organisms still got even more complex. They began to develop into social
                          groups like whales and humans. Now a lot of the influence was from
                          society... a LOT. Even in things like cougars and birds, social
                          interaction with their parents teaches a lot. A lot is dictated by
                          genetics with them, but a lot is social too. In these higher level
                          organisms, however, it becomes predominately culture that takes
                          over. There are still some genetic reflexes, like orgasm is good... but
                          all we notice is that it feels good. Our biological impulse is to achieve
                          orgasm... (they're fun, right?) The social force is to breed and expand
                          the church and make more of gods children and all that rubbish, or to have
                          kids and spend your money to support the consumeristic and consumptionist
                          economy... or to support the starving kids in afghanistan and
                          ethiopia. These are all social forces, none biological. Biologically,
                          orgasm is quite enough.

                          So for humans, I'd have to say its almost entirely the product of social
                          conditioning... of course a tribe or society who didnt have the desire to
                          breed would quickly die out... not quickly, but definitely after a
                          generation. Or rather, it wouldnt exist to begin with because they had to
                          have been born somewhere that had a desire to breed, because if it didnt
                          they wouldnt be born... and then <insert circular logic>

                          I'm done I guess...

                          -rawb


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                          VHEMT Volunteers and Supporters may subscribe to
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Rawb Stryker
                          ... Because if we stopped having kids, we wouldnt have people to make our goods and services when we grow old... most of the people in the world want perfect
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 2 8:50 PM
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                            > But why hasn't education and common sense prevailed by now,
                            > earth wide? We all know orgasm is still possible without
                            > having to reproduce too. But humans continue to mindlessly
                            > reproduce!
                            >
                            > It simply boggles my mind.
                            > K

                            Because if we stopped having kids, we wouldnt have people to make our
                            goods and services when we grow old... most of the people in the world
                            want perfect security in their old age... of course what they neglect to
                            realize is that while our current society provides the goods and services
                            to us in our old age, we don't get the community feeling and we don't take
                            care of our elderly personally the way some cultures did.

                            There are countries struggling now because they have very low birth rates,
                            and so no one is available to do the services needed to let hte other
                            people live... Combine that with other aspects of our culture like that
                            people shouldnt commit suicide (because lets be honest, when someone
                            commits suicide they arent spending money any more...), or people should
                            stay alive as long as possible (regardless of quality of life really) or
                            go out and expand the church... its not any one reason... its everything
                            about our culture that forces people to keep having kids...

                            I feel bad for the children that ARE born in those low birth-rate
                            countries, because they'll have a tremendous burden on them to support
                            everyone else... kinda like how social security in america will eventually
                            go bankrupt, only much worse in the other countries because instead of the
                            government not being able to pay out money for people to exchange for the
                            needed goods, the other countries simply won't have anyone to make them at
                            all...

                            And yes... I like to have brain farts. They're fun. Fart Fart
                            Fart... faaaaaart...

                            -rawb

                            :loud fart: (moron)
                          • Les U. Knight
                            Gary, there are more choices than those two. Personally, I don t celebrate Mother s Day: Hallmark Card company doesn t determine such things for me. I m sure
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 3 6:09 AM
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                              Gary, there are more choices than those two. Personally, I don't
                              celebrate Mother's Day: Hallmark Card company doesn't determine such
                              things for me. I'm sure there are Volunteers who do observe the day.
                              It can't be assumed that those of us who don't will curse our moms.

                              Raising our sorry asses isn't what is helping to destroy ecosystems,
                              it's our creation in the first place. And now the US is producing
                              more new people than ever: four million per year.

                              "or could it be something as simple as LOVE? A condition I am sure
                              this group has never felt nor experianced!"

                              VHEMT is based on love. Breeding and love are two different things.
                              However, it's not possible for a disembodied philosophical movement
                              to feel anything.

                              "another brain fart from rawb, how pathetic can you get?"

                              Gee, I suppose I could get more pathetic than that retort, but I'll
                              just concede rather than try. You win.

                              Les
                            • Gary
                              VHEMt is based on Love??? Oh, good grief man! and you really believe this?? How is wishing the destruction of humankind be love? There is no logic in this
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 3 6:36 AM
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                                VHEMt is based on Love??? Oh, good grief man! and you really believe
                                this?? How is wishing the destruction of humankind be love? There is no
                                logic in this universe that you can use to support this. Maybe you have
                                issues in your life that you wish to end the misery, fine, but don't ever
                                think you represent a sane and logic approach to any issue here. Like it or
                                not we are as much a part of the nature order of life in the universe as any
                                other creature or plant that has ever lived on this planet. I suggest you
                                peddle your leftist bullshit elsewhere....
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Les U. Knight [mailto:les@...]
                                Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 6:09 AM
                                To: Why_VHEMT@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Why VHEMT? Human extinction


                                Gary, there are more choices than those two. Personally, I don't
                                celebrate Mother's Day: Hallmark Card company doesn't determine such
                                things for me. I'm sure there are Volunteers who do observe the day.
                                It can't be assumed that those of us who don't will curse our moms.

                                Raising our sorry asses isn't what is helping to destroy ecosystems,
                                it's our creation in the first place. And now the US is producing
                                more new people than ever: four million per year.

                                "or could it be something as simple as LOVE? A condition I am sure
                                this group has never felt nor experianced!"

                                VHEMT is based on love. Breeding and love are two different things.
                                However, it's not possible for a disembodied philosophical movement
                                to feel anything.

                                "another brain fart from rawb, how pathetic can you get?"

                                Gee, I suppose I could get more pathetic than that retort, but I'll
                                just concede rather than try. You win.

                                Les

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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • lesuknight
                                Gary, you ask, How is wishing the destruction of humankind be love? The destruction of humankind that is going on, and that is bound to accelerate if we
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 3 10:29 AM
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                                  Gary, you ask, "How is wishing the destruction of humankind be
                                  love?"

                                  The destruction of humankind that is going on, and that is bound
                                  to accelerate if we don't stop breeding, is definitely not love. Our
                                  voluntary phase-out would prevent this destruction -- if it's not too
                                  late.

                                  >There is no logic in this universe that you can use to support
                                  this. <

                                  That depends on what "this" is.

                                  >Maybe you have issues in your life that you wish to end the
                                  misery, fine, but don't ever think you represent a sane and logic
                                  approach to any issue here. <

                                  There are issues which we all share as life forms in Earth's
                                  biosphere. Anyone who cares about humanity will want the
                                  misery to end, or at least be diminished.

                                  > Like it or not we are as much a part of the nature order of life in
                                  the universe as any other creature or plant that has ever lived on
                                  this planet. <

                                  In some ways, we are a part of Nature: we breathe the air, drink
                                  the water, and so on. But really, just look around yourself right
                                  now and note how many living things there are. Look out the
                                  window and most of the life you'll see is domesticated, hybrid,
                                  and/or exotic. We've worked hard to remove ourselves from the
                                  natural order of life.

                                  >I suggest you peddle your leftist bullshit elsewhere....

                                  Thanks for the suggestion. Maybe I should start a yahoo
                                  discussion group where we talk about human extinction.

                                  I don't know about the bullshit I peddle being leftist, though.
                                  Seems ultra conservative to me. We should conserve what's left,
                                  and improving population density helps conserve.

                                  Les
                                • beamenace2
                                  ... Nor, it seems do most of the people on this planet. If you check the universe you will find ... Why should earth be that way as well ? ... Again, it would
                                  Message 16 of 21 , May 3 10:34 AM
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                                    --- In Why_VHEMT@y..., "jmsilv" <jmsilv@y...> wrote:

                                    > I don't care about nature.

                                    Nor, it seems do most of the people on this planet.


                                    If you check the universe you will find
                                    > that most planets are baren and without life. Earth should be that
                                    > way as well.

                                    Why should earth 'be that way as well'?


                                    >That's why I don't care what I do.

                                    Again, it would seem you are in the majority with this attitude.


                                    >Eventually everything is gonna be extinct,

                                    Not necessarily


                                    >including humans.

                                    I certainly hope so, the sooner the better


                                    >So screw all the animals on earth.

                                    I believe this is called bestiality.


                                    >I would kill a thousand lions to feed one child and i would
                                    > make them extinct and i wouldnt care a bit.

                                    You'd be lucky to find a thousand lions to kill in this day and age.


                                    >the future is death for all.

                                    That's true


                                    So lets destroy all the animals on our planet and be the last
                                    > ones standing.

                                    Mmm, you do have a problem with the existance of non-human animals on
                                    the planet. Could this be because most are more intelligent than you?

                                    >Eventually will die too.

                                    Just how does 'eventually' die?


                                    >But who will be here to care?

                                    Well, I can't imagine anyone mourning your demise.
                                  • James Skipper
                                    Yes, Les, The comments from Gary that I love best are when he wants you to stop discussing your ideas in your group. I guess to Gary you are fairly left when
                                    Message 17 of 21 , May 3 11:33 AM
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                                      Yes, Les,

                                      The comments from Gary that I love best are when he wants you to stop discussing your ideas in
                                      your group. I guess to Gary you are fairly left when he is so extremely Fascist.

                                      --- lesuknight <les@...> wrote:

                                      > >I suggest you peddle your leftist bullshit elsewhere....
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for the suggestion. Maybe I should start a yahoo
                                      > discussion group where we talk about human extinction.
                                      >
                                      > I don't know about the bullshit I peddle being leftist, though.
                                      > Seems ultra conservative to me. We should conserve what's left,
                                      > and improving population density helps conserve.
                                      >
                                      > Les
                                      >
                                      >


                                      =====
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                                    • kjquen@psnw.com
                                      In view of the topics, reactions to them and the thoughtful replies, these quotes seemed appropriate: Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or
                                      Message 18 of 21 , May 4 10:06 AM
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                                        In view of the topics, reactions to them and the thoughtful
                                        replies, these quotes seemed appropriate:

                                        Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed
                                        a human soul -- Mark Twain

                                        Know how to listen and you will profit even from those who
                                        talk badly. -- Plutarch
                                      • kjquen@psnw.com
                                        In view of the topics, reactions, and the thoughtful replies to them, these quotes seem appropriate: Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or
                                        Message 19 of 21 , May 4 10:08 AM
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                                          In view of the topics, reactions, and the thoughtful replies
                                          to them, these quotes seem appropriate:

                                          Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed
                                          a human soul -- Mark Twain

                                          Know how to listen and you will profit even from those who
                                          talk badly. -- Plutarch
                                        • Rawb Stryker
                                          Yes, the world without humans is still vicious and all that jazz, but there were never any hard feelings. When herds of animals are grazing, and 1 or 2 get
                                          Message 20 of 21 , May 4 10:15 PM
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                                            Yes, the world without humans is still vicious and all that jazz, but
                                            there were never any hard feelings. When herds of animals are grazing, and
                                            1 or 2 get singled out and eaten by a predator, the others may in fact
                                            grieve, but they don't hold hard feelings to the predators.

                                            Fact is things like that only allowed for evolution... only by having the
                                            slow and weak die can the fast and strong become a larger portion of the
                                            population. Not saying that the population itself would increase but
                                            rather that the strong's percentage OF the population would go up over
                                            time...

                                            I don't think we need a peaceful world where everything is
                                            happy... because imagine for a minute humans managed to make everything
                                            perfect to the point where no animals suffered and we didnt totally trash
                                            the planet anymore etc... What would happen is over the course of a long
                                            time, we'd turn into the small guys in 'the time machine'... the little
                                            playful guys who have no defenses to anything. A lack of predators makes a
                                            species weak... This is why all the indian tribes would have skirmishes
                                            with each other but never try to kill the other group off completely... It
                                            made them BOTH stronger, almost like sparring practice. Admittedly it
                                            wasnt always friendly between them, and they probably didnt KNOW that this
                                            was why they fought each other, but they did know trying to obliterate the
                                            other tribe was not the right thing to do...

                                            This was why the indians took so long to organize against the
                                            whiteys... they were totally unsuspecting of an all-out obliteration-type
                                            war where you try to completely remove the other group. They were used to
                                            small skirmishes, being rivals... etc.

                                            As for killing 10 lions to save 1 human baby? heh... I don't feel the same
                                            way at all. As a matter of fact, I got kicked out of my friends room,
                                            physically removed, for saying I don't have the same respect for human
                                            life they do... There are 6 billion of us... how can I have respect for us
                                            as a whole when we're causing more problems than we're worth...

                                            They apparently thought all human life was precious always. We were
                                            arguing about how the vegan couple who refused to feed their infant child
                                            milk or anything coming from animals, and I said that this was one source
                                            of natural selection... either natural selection of genes or of memes, but
                                            either way these people would die out and I didnt agree with social
                                            service for taking the child away. If 2 parents have kids, and every time
                                            the kid dies, then that says something. We don't need to end all
                                            suffering... suffering is a way of life and only through trials and
                                            tribulations can we grow stronger.

                                            The gem cannot be polished without friction, nor man perfected without
                                            trials. ~Confucius

                                            Anyway they didnt agree with my darwinism ideas and not only did they
                                            disagree, they got so upset over them that I'm not even sure if they'll
                                            talk to me anymore. I can understand that people have their own ideas, but
                                            what ever happened to letting people have them and agree to disagree?

                                            At one point, they said I'd feel entirely different if someone I loved
                                            died. I told them that at that moment yes I would agree... but thats
                                            because with an increased age of death you have a lot more time to know
                                            someone before they die, which only makes the grieving and loss that much
                                            worse. In the 1800s you rarely knew your grandparents and you certainly
                                            didnt know your parents for an excess of 55 years... so the grieving
                                            wasn't as bad as it is now. Making people live longer may seem like a
                                            great idea now, but the longer they live the harder the emotional pain
                                            when they die because you spent that much longer knowing them.

                                            Heh... he even went so far as to call me a nazi when I said stupid people
                                            should die, but we didnt have to do anything because over time they'd all
                                            eventually kill themselves... if we didnt make the entire world
                                            idiot-proof. He seemed to equate leaving the world a little dangerous with
                                            me being a nazi. I'm not saying we should kill anyone, but by encasing
                                            everything in rubber we end up with irresponsible parents who don't have
                                            to keep an eye on their kids. Now whats more important? The survival of a
                                            human life? Or the propagation of responsible parents? I'd personally
                                            leave the world dangerous because it'd make us all more responsible.

                                            What does this have to do with VHEMT? Nothing... I'm just upset about
                                            being physically being removed from a friends room and perhaps losing 2
                                            friends concurrently... and so for all you readers I thus leave, another
                                            brain fart from rawb. (thanks for my new sig btw)

                                            -rawb, brain farter extraordinare
                                          • Les U. Knight
                                            On 2 May 2002, Rawb wrote: There are countries struggling now because they have very low birth rates, and so no one is available to do the services
                                            Message 21 of 21 , May 19 6:14 PM
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                                              On 2 May 2002, Rawb wrote:

                                              <snip>
                                              There are countries struggling now because they have very low birth rates,
                                              and so no one is available to do the services needed to let hte other
                                              people live... <

                                              Can you give an example of this? Even in countries with very low
                                              birth rates -- negative population growth -- unemployment is still a
                                              problem. As long as there are more people than jobs, the services
                                              needed to let other people live could be provided. There may be other
                                              factors preventing human services from reaching those in need, but I
                                              doubt a lack of people is one of them.

                                              <snip>

                                              I feel bad for the children that ARE born in those low birth-rate
                                              countries, because they'll have a tremendous burden on them to support
                                              everyone else... kinda like how social security in america will eventually
                                              go bankrupt, only much worse in the other countries because instead of the
                                              government not being able to pay out money for people to exchange for the
                                              needed goods, the other countries simply won't have anyone to make them at
                                              all...
                                              <snip>

                                              I too feel sorry for those who are inheriting the messes and debts
                                              we've generated, however, wonder if a collapse of social security due
                                              to fewer people paying in is inevitable. Here's my perspective,
                                              available at: http://www.vhemt.org/economics.htm#socialsecurity

                                              Q: Who will pay our social security when we're old?

                                              Although most systems of providing for retired citizens are financed
                                              by taxing working citizens, the concept of needing younger people to
                                              support older people is obsolete. If used responsibly, products from
                                              the industrial and technological revolutions could satisfy our needs
                                              without selling our children into wage slavery.

                                              Social security systems are artificial, so adjustments for changes,
                                              such as a reduction in the number of potential workers, can be made.

                                              Automation removes more workers from payrolls than birth control
                                              does. Owners of the machines gain the "wages" formerly paid to
                                              workers, without paying a percentage into pension funds. Adjustments
                                              could be made.

                                              Unemployment reveals that we already have enough potential workers.
                                              Increasing employment and increasing wages will increase funds paid
                                              to social security.

                                              In the USA, a pea-and-shell game is being played on taxpayers. More
                                              money is taken in for social security than is shelled out, but the
                                              remainder vanishes instead of being invested for future pensioners.

                                              The solution to having our nest eggs stolen isn't to lay more eggs.

                                              I also recommend http://www.vhemt.org/economics.htm which discusses
                                              the economics of an improving population density.

                                              Les
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