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  • barrowisp
    The site reads ...will enough of us reach the level of awareness needed to voluntarily reverse our present course toward involuntary extinction? We can only
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 2, 2005
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      The site reads "...will enough of us reach the level of awareness
      needed to voluntarily reverse our present course toward involuntary
      extinction? We can only hope, and try to bring it about."

      But the site doesn't address (except by implication) the challenges to
      the VHEMT movement posed by the pronatalist policies of mormons and
      catholics.

      It further reads, "We can't assume that instructions given before our
      fall from grace and banishment from the Garden of Eden apply afterward."

      Unfortunately, mormons are explicitly taught that "God's commandment
      for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in
      force," which means they aren't ASSUMING the instructions still apply,
      but rather are considered apostate if they WANT to refrain from
      multiplying.
      (from the Proclamation to the World on the Family, 2000)
      http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$xhitlist_q=proclamation%20world%20family$xhitlist_x=Simple$xhitlist_s=relevance-weight$xhitlist_d=$xhitlist_hc=%5BXML%5D%5Bkwic%2C0%5D$xhitlist_xsl=xhitlist.xsl$xhitlist_vpc=first$xhitlist_sel=title%3Bpath%3Bcontent-type%3Bhome-title%3Bhit-context%3Bfield%3Azr%3Bfield%3ARef

      Moreover, they believe that the millenial reign of Christ cannot begin
      until each spirit child of god has received a body, hence the sooner
      we get these babies produced the sooner the world can stop being
      violent and destructive. Returning the earth to its natural,
      undefiled state isn't a concern since the world is expected to be
      cleansed and renewed with the coming of Christ, and competition for
      resources will dissolve in the harmonious interactions of the millenium.

      My point is, how can we hope for human extinction when the beliefs of
      mormons preclude voluntary childlessness? Wouldn't we just end up
      with a world populated solely by mormons, catholics, and irreligious
      wanton reproducers? Education, via the website and bumper stickers
      etc. can't compete with the religious education mormons receive as
      long as it is in blatant opposition to perceived commandments of god.
      ={
    • Jim Miller
      ... Great points, brought up with some frequency. Fear of the unknown, and immersion in religion which often accompanies it, are powerful inter-generational
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 2, 2005
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        barrowisp wrote:

        > The site reads "...will enough of us reach the level of
        > awareness needed to voluntarily reverse our present course
        > toward involuntary extinction? We can only hope, and try to
        > bring it about."
        >
        > But the site doesn't address (except by implication) the
        > challenges to the VHEMT movement posed by the pronatalist
        > policies of mormons and catholics.

        > My point is, how can we hope for human extinction when the
        > beliefs of mormons preclude voluntary childlessness?
        > Wouldn't we just end up with a world populated solely by
        > mormons, catholics, and irreligious wanton reproducers?
        > Education, via the website and bumper stickers etc. can't
        > compete with the religious education mormons receive as long
        > as it is in blatant opposition to perceived commandments of god.
        > ={


        Great points, brought up with some frequency. Fear of the unknown, and immersion in religion which often accompanies it, are
        powerful inter-generational forces. One hope I have is that in a world visibly declining in quality and hopefully more exposed to
        anti-breeding ideals, children old enough to begin to make value judgements - perhaps 10 years and up - will be able to look around
        and form ideas independent of the brainwashing they got in the first 10 years of their life. That time frame is critical because
        they still have time to make the decision not to breed, or at least delay it, before the age when sexual activity typically begins.

        It's a long shot. But I haven't thought of a plan better than encouraging everyone not to breed, combined with logical, compelling
        rebuttal of bs religious and other doctrine, an example of which you mention above. If we play the game of trying to out-breed the
        ideological breeders (and non-thinkers), just in order to have a majority bloc on the planet, we'll defeat the purpose and I don't
        think anyone will win.

        And even if a cause is completely hopeless, there is satisfaction to be had in promoting and practicing the sane ideas behind it.
        In the end, I hold myself completely unresponsible for the dumb thinking of other people.

        Jim
      • Suzy Davies
        Moreover, they believe that the millenial reign of Christ cannot begin until each spirit child of god has received a body . Are they suggesting that the plant
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 2, 2005
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          "Moreover, they believe that the millenial reign of Christ cannot begin
          until each spirit child of god has received a body".



          Are they suggesting that the plant and creature beings are not also entitled to space enough in which to incarnate in their bodies? That sounds blasphemous to me!


          barrowisp <barrowisp@...> wrote:
          The site reads "...will enough of us reach the level of awareness
          needed to voluntarily reverse our present course toward involuntary
          extinction? We can only hope, and try to bring it about."

          But the site doesn't address (except by implication) the challenges to
          the VHEMT movement posed by the pronatalist policies of mormons and
          catholics.

          It further reads, "We can't assume that instructions given before our
          fall from grace and banishment from the Garden of Eden apply afterward."

          Unfortunately, mormons are explicitly taught that "God's commandment
          for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in
          force," which means they aren't ASSUMING the instructions still apply,
          but rather are considered apostate if they WANT to refrain from
          multiplying.
          (from the Proclamation to the World on the Family, 2000)
          http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$xhitlist_q=proclamation%20world%20family$xhitlist_x=Simple$xhitlist_s=relevance-weight$xhitlist_d=$xhitlist_hc=%5BXML%5D%5Bkwic%2C0%5D$xhitlist_xsl=xhitlist.xsl$xhitlist_vpc=first$xhitlist_sel=title%3Bpath%3Bcontent-type%3Bhome-title%3Bhit-context%3Bfield%3Azr%3Bfield%3ARef

          Moreover, they believe that the millenial reign of Christ cannot begin
          until each spirit child of god has received a body, hence the sooner
          we get these babies produced the sooner the world can stop being
          violent and destructive. Returning the earth to its natural,
          undefiled state isn't a concern since the world is expected to be
          cleansed and renewed with the coming of Christ, and competition for
          resources will dissolve in the harmonious interactions of the millenium.

          My point is, how can we hope for human extinction when the beliefs of
          mormons preclude voluntary childlessness? Wouldn't we just end up
          with a world populated solely by mormons, catholics, and irreligious
          wanton reproducers? Education, via the website and bumper stickers
          etc. can't compete with the religious education mormons receive as
          long as it is in blatant opposition to perceived commandments of god.
          ={






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        • emma riedel
          I lost the article, but I thought people here might be interested in what I read in a local newspaper. The article I read criticised Angelina Jolie and other
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 3, 2005
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            I lost the article, but I thought people here might be interested in what I read in a local newspaper. The article I read criticised Angelina Jolie and other people who adopt babies from poor countries as having "Messiah complexes." Apparently the avoidance of stretch marks, weight gain, breast feeding and varicose veins means that you are a selfish person. A sane person breeds apparently - well that was the general tone of the article.

            As for Mormons and the like, this is a prime example of how the religious are deluded. I truly believe it is a mental illness. I have a mood disorder and I know that when i am particularly elevated i begin to believe in all that rubbish but when I am stable I think much more clearly. If something isn't scientifically verifiable I don't bother wasting my time. Humans have been on this earth for hundreds of thousand of years with so many religions and we still have not found any great answers about the meaning of our own existence or the nature of God. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

            Suzy Davies <reindeer2uk@...> wrote:
            "Moreover, they believe that the millenial reign of Christ cannot begin
            until each spirit child of god has received a body".



            Are they suggesting that the plant and creature beings are not also entitled to space enough in which to incarnate in their bodies? That sounds blasphemous to me!


            barrowisp <barrowisp@...> wrote:
            The site reads "...will enough of us reach the level of awareness
            needed to voluntarily reverse our present course toward involuntary
            extinction? We can only hope, and try to bring it about."

            But the site doesn't address (except by implication) the challenges to
            the VHEMT movement posed by the pronatalist policies of mormons and
            catholics.

            It further reads, "We can't assume that instructions given before our
            fall from grace and banishment from the Garden of Eden apply afterward."

            Unfortunately, mormons are explicitly taught that "God's commandment
            for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in
            force," which means they aren't ASSUMING the instructions still apply,
            but rather are considered apostate if they WANT to refrain from
            multiplying.
            (from the Proclamation to the World on the Family, 2000)
            http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$xhitlist_q=proclamation%20world%20family$xhitlist_x=Simple$xhitlist_s=relevance-weight$xhitlist_d=$xhitlist_hc=%5BXML%5D%5Bkwic%2C0%5D$xhitlist_xsl=xhitlist.xsl$xhitlist_vpc=first$xhitlist_sel=title%3Bpath%3Bcontent-type%3Bhome-title%3Bhit-context%3Bfield%3Azr%3Bfield%3ARef

            Moreover, they believe that the millenial reign of Christ cannot begin
            until each spirit child of god has received a body, hence the sooner
            we get these babies produced the sooner the world can stop being
            violent and destructive. Returning the earth to its natural,
            undefiled state isn't a concern since the world is expected to be
            cleansed and renewed with the coming of Christ, and competition for
            resources will dissolve in the harmonious interactions of the millenium.

            My point is, how can we hope for human extinction when the beliefs of
            mormons preclude voluntary childlessness? Wouldn't we just end up
            with a world populated solely by mormons, catholics, and irreligious
            wanton reproducers? Education, via the website and bumper stickers
            etc. can't compete with the religious education mormons receive as
            long as it is in blatant opposition to perceived commandments of god.
            ={






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          • Christiane Nickels
            Thanks to those who replied, but I d like to put the question out there again in hopes of even more responses. ... of ... course ... and try to ... the ...
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 3, 2005
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              Thanks to those who replied, but I'd like to put the
              question out there again in hopes of even more
              responses.

              barrowisp wrote:

              > The site reads "...will enough of us reach the level
              of
              > awareness needed to voluntarily reverse our present
              course
              > toward involuntary extinction? We can only hope,
              and try to
              > bring it about."
              >
              > But the site doesn't address (except by implication)
              the
              > challenges to the VHEMT movement posed by the
              pronatalist
              > policies of mormons and catholics.

              > My point is, how can we hope for human extinction
              when the
              > beliefs of mormons preclude voluntary childlessness?

              > Wouldn't we just end up with a world populated
              solely by
              > mormons, catholics, and irreligious wanton
              reproducers?
              > Education, via the website and bumper stickers etc.
              can't
              > compete with the religious education mormons receive
              as long
              > as it is in blatant opposition to perceived
              commandments of god.
              > ={

              Let me rephrase the question, though:

              How can we hope for human extinction when the beliefs
              of mormons preclude voluntary childlessness? What
              specifically can be done? (avoiding, of course,
              assaults on the rights of others) What kind of
              education campaign can be put forward?

              In response to those who answered last time:
              I was a little bothered by Jim's apparent lack of
              respect for religions (I for one think nearly all
              youth would benefit from a religious upbringing,
              especially a mormon one, and wish to say that it
              doesn't feel at all like brainwashing...more like
              self-censorship). I even wonder whether any or all
              religions might be right after all, but choose to
              dismiss that idea as insupportable. Religion might
              not be bs (at least completely) and it has led to
              roughly as much good as it has caused harm. I really
              appreciate the comment, tho, that "even if a cause is
              completely hopeless, there is satisfaction to be had
              in promoting and practicing the sane ideas behind it."

              I felt Suzy's retort was insubstantial, especially
              since I think I addressed her concern in the rest of
              the paragraph: "Returning the earth to its natural,
              undefiled state isn't a concern since the world is
              expected to be cleansed and renewed with the coming of
              Christ." I think the millenium is EXPECTED to involve
              plants and other creatures (think lions and lambs) and
              that space won't be an issue (not every human ever
              born will participate in the millenium, and those that
              do will take turns in which they, being now
              enlightened and ruled perfectly, would not destroy the
              world for those who come after them). I don't
              actually believe this, but I don't think those mormons
              who do are being hypocritical or blasphemous, Suzy.

              Thanks again




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            • Christiane Nickels
              Emma, thanks for your intelligent comments. islesfan3421 wrote:
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 4, 2005
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                Emma, thanks for your intelligent comments.

                islesfan3421 <islesfan3421@...> wrote:
                <Why not attempt to eliminate war, famine, and
                disease, rather than writing off all of humanity as a
                blight upon the earth?>

                Comments like these make me reluctant to even argue,
                since vhemt DOES want to eliminate things like war but
                only has hope of doing so by eliminating warmongering
                humans; attempts to eliminate war, famine, disease
                haven't been successful, tho they HAVE been tried
                already (beCAUSE humanity is a blight upon the earth,
                I want to add, tho that would make me sound as
                thoughtlessly zealous as the comments I criticize).

                (I don't advocate giving up on cures or treatments for
                disease; make good use of our time alive to reduce
                suffering among others. Those we have solved,
                however, get replaced by new ones--think bird flue--so
                our progress is agonizingly slow. And when one war
                ends another brews. Famine isn't as much of an issue
                as intentional destruction of excess food to keep
                prices high, in my opinion. Although at our rate of
                deforestation and soil depletion we may very well set
                ourselves up for a horrible famine.)


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              • islesfan3421
                Firstly, disease is disease, we don t create it, and obviously we have been more successful than any other species in eradicating it. I fail to see a human
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 4, 2005
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                  Firstly, disease is disease, we don't create it, and obviously we
                  have been more successful than any other species in eradicating it.
                  I fail to see a human role in BIRD FLU. I see many humans trying to
                  destroy it, however. I don't see how you can call me thoughtlessly
                  zealous, as the philosophy I subscribe to is the natural course of
                  life. To not reproduce is to run counter to basic genetic
                  programming.

                  I would say that war is a very minor problem, in this day and age
                  brought about by a few misguided individuals, rather than the
                  massive affairs they used to be. There is nobody to fight anymore,
                  as we all have so many interests vested in one another. I urge you
                  to take a look at the "McDonald's effect" and its role in preventing
                  war. Take it not as selfish greed, but rather a willingness to join
                  together. I also find it typical that extreme groups (and VHEMT is
                  extreme, you cannot deny that) tend to dismiss those that disagree
                  as closed to new ideas and, of course, "thoughtless zealots". And
                  your example of intentional destruction of food is an outdated one,
                  reminiscent of a misguided Depression-Era policy.
                  --- In Why_VHEMT@yahoogroups.com, Christiane Nickels
                  <barrowisp@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Emma, thanks for your intelligent comments.
                  >
                  > islesfan3421 <islesfan3421@y...> wrote:
                  > <Why not attempt to eliminate war, famine, and
                  > disease, rather than writing off all of humanity as a
                  > blight upon the earth?>
                  >
                  > Comments like these make me reluctant to even argue,
                  > since vhemt DOES want to eliminate things like war but
                  > only has hope of doing so by eliminating warmongering
                  > humans; attempts to eliminate war, famine, disease
                  > haven't been successful, tho they HAVE been tried
                  > already (beCAUSE humanity is a blight upon the earth,
                  > I want to add, tho that would make me sound as
                  > thoughtlessly zealous as the comments I criticize).
                  >
                  > (I don't advocate giving up on cures or treatments for
                  > disease; make good use of our time alive to reduce
                  > suffering among others. Those we have solved,
                  > however, get replaced by new ones--think bird flue--so
                  > our progress is agonizingly slow. And when one war
                  > ends another brews. Famine isn't as much of an issue
                  > as intentional destruction of excess food to keep
                  > prices high, in my opinion. Although at our rate of
                  > deforestation and soil depletion we may very well set
                  > ourselves up for a horrible famine.)
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                • Les U. Knight
                  Christiane, all religions have dogma which agrees with voluntary human extinction, and I ve included some for Christianity at: http://vhemt.org/philrel.htm .
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 6, 2005
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                    Christiane, all religions have dogma which agrees with voluntary
                    human extinction, and I've included some for Christianity at:
                    http://vhemt.org/philrel.htm .

                    However, LDS is a sect which I have no good argument for. The belief
                    in Spirit Babies -- pre existence -- precludes all arguments agains
                    breeding for the sake of the non-existent because they already exist.
                    Better to have them born into a Mormon family, even one that is
                    struggling to feed everyone, than to let them be born to a couple who
                    won't be able to keep them from starving to death. Plus, they'll
                    already be in the right religion and won't have to be converted later.

                    As you say, there's also motivation to get them all born so that
                    Jesus can return and then everything will be hunky dory. Even extinct
                    species could be brought back.

                    I know this is not very helpful. With all other sects, I don't
                    question the belief system, just try to help them find the aspects
                    which allow them to consider not breeding. If anyone has suggestions
                    for LDS, I'd love to hear them.

                    Les
                  • Les U. Knight
                    ... Yes, the site is down as a new server is installed. ... Naturally. The selected passages address some of your concerns. Les -- orig msg -- The Bible
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 6, 2005
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                      AMEN, you wrote:

                      >It did not go thru, <

                      Yes, the site is down as a new server is installed.

                      >and it better come from the Bible, and not some "teaching" from some
                      >human tradition you quote.<

                      Naturally. The selected passages address some of your concerns.

                      Les

                      -- orig msg --
                      The Bible teaches us that
                      God has created all babies, and knows every hair on their head. It also
                      teaches to be fruitful and multiply. There is obviously no place where it
                      says to put any place or thing in creation above God's creation of man. It
                      tells man to have dominion over His creation, not to make himself equal to
                      it. Man has a spirit which animals don't, in addtion to other things, you
                      just don't like my God. Well at least I won't be stuck seeing you when I
                      die, since you want some other god. But I pray you wake up, repent, and ask
                      God to come into your life before it is too late. AMEN
                    • emma riedel
                      Amen, Whichever way you look at it, we are called to be stewards of God s creation are we not??? If God really wanted us to procreate without regard for our
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 7, 2005
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                        Amen,
                        Whichever way you look at it, we are called to be stewards of God's creation are we not??? If God really wanted us to procreate without regard for our environment, then God would have provided us with an infinite living space to live in. Earth has finite resources, so I think it is rational to concolude that God wills us to look after the Earth which He/She/It created. I think every religion, if it is based on love, will be for protecting the environment. The spiritually aware among us are extra sensitive to the harm done to the planet. If it is such a blessed thing to breed, then why did Jesus not have a child??? In my opinion, it is a far more moral choice to not breed and to devote your time and energy into protecting wildlife and adding your own beauty and using your intelligence to benefit the world. I do hope that humans will evolve fast enough to survive great catastrophes and that the future is a more loving and peaceful one. Technology is not our foe, it is hate and
                        fear which cause the greatest destruction on the planet. I do think that spirituality is very important for humans to pull through. The grim reality is that now is not a good time to choose to breed. I would be honoured to have the opportunity to adopt one day, as I believe it would be a life changing experience. I certainly do not see extinction as the ideal, and I doubt that anyone here actually does. To see VHEMT as an ideal does seem to be based on hate - the ideal is surely to want to see a future with humans. However, the sanest choice at the moment may be to decide to phase us out if you consider the current rate of earthly destruction. I view it only as a last resort and not the ideal solution. I have heard that more right-brained children are being born which suggests that humans are evolving to become more creative and emotionally intelligent. These are called the Indigo Children.



                        "Les U. Knight" <les@...> wrote:
                        AMEN, you wrote:

                        >It did not go thru, <

                        Yes, the site is down as a new server is installed.

                        >and it better come from the Bible, and not some "teaching" from some
                        >human tradition you quote.<

                        Naturally. The selected passages address some of your concerns.

                        Les

                        -- orig msg --
                        The Bible teaches us that
                        God has created all babies, and knows every hair on their head. It also
                        teaches to be fruitful and multiply. There is obviously no place where it
                        says to put any place or thing in creation above God's creation of man. It
                        tells man to have dominion over His creation, not to make himself equal to
                        it. Man has a spirit which animals don't, in addtion to other things, you
                        just don't like my God. Well at least I won't be stuck seeing you when I
                        die, since you want some other god. But I pray you wake up, repent, and ask
                        God to come into your life before it is too late. AMEN


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                      • Suzy Davies
                        RE: The Bible teaches us that God has created all babies, and knows every hair on their head. It also teaches to be fruitful and multiply. There is obviously
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 7, 2005
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                          RE:


                          The Bible teaches us that
                          God has created all babies, and knows every hair on their head. It also
                          teaches to be fruitful and multiply. There is obviously no place where it
                          says to put any place or thing in creation above God's creation of man. It
                          tells man to have dominion over His creation, not to make himself equal to
                          it. Man has a spirit which animals don't, in addtion to other things, you
                          just don't like my God. Well at least I won't be stuck seeing you when I
                          die, since you want some other god. But I pray you wake up, repent, and ask
                          God to come into your life before it is too late. AMEN


                          OK, Whatever happened to "All things Bright and Beautiful

                          All Creatures Great and Small

                          All Things Wise and Wonderful

                          The Lord God Made Them All"

                          If God made them, then it is sacreligious to drive them into oblivion in one of the greatest mass extinctions in the history/prehistory of the world, driven I`m sorry to say by the hand of man.



                          I pray that that you"Amen" and your ilk not only open up your eyes before it`s too late, but also your hearts, because you may think you`re going to heaven, but with your arrogance I wouldn`t be too cock-sure.







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                        • islesfan3421
                          I think there are some people here that think extinction is the ideal (Rodney Marsh). This is what I was trying to understand. I agree that the world is a
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 7, 2005
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                            I think there are some people here that think extinction is the
                            ideal (Rodney Marsh). This is what I was trying to understand. I
                            agree that the world is a frightening place at this moment. To end
                            humanity because of some bad apples seems to be a very extreme
                            solution to the problem. Sure, you can kill a fly with a baseball
                            bat, but do you really need to when you can catch it in a cup and
                            put it outside? I believe that God intended for us to manage our
                            resources wisely. People complain about oil problems, but we are on
                            the cusp of developing oil-free vehicles, and we already have oil
                            alternatives for heating and industry. As for food, there is
                            plenty. It is not because of man's evil nature that third world
                            countries starve, it is because those that hold power in these
                            countries hoard supplies for their own benefit. Destroying an
                            entire bushel because of a few bad apples is excessive at best.
                            --- In Why_VHEMT@yahoogroups.com, emma riedel <follybythefool@y...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Amen,
                            > Whichever way you look at it, we are called to be stewards of
                            God's creation are we not??? If God really wanted us to procreate
                            without regard for our environment, then God would have provided us
                            with an infinite living space to live in. Earth has finite
                            resources, so I think it is rational to concolude that God wills us
                            to look after the Earth which He/She/It created. I think every
                            religion, if it is based on love, will be for protecting the
                            environment. The spiritually aware among us are extra sensitive to
                            the harm done to the planet. If it is such a blessed thing to
                            breed, then why did Jesus not have a child??? In my opinion, it is
                            a far more moral choice to not breed and to devote your time and
                            energy into protecting wildlife and adding your own beauty and using
                            your intelligence to benefit the world. I do hope that humans will
                            evolve fast enough to survive great catastrophes and that the future
                            is a more loving and peaceful one. Technology is not our foe, it is
                            hate and
                            > fear which cause the greatest destruction on the planet. I do
                            think that spirituality is very important for humans to pull
                            through. The grim reality is that now is not a good time to choose
                            to breed. I would be honoured to have the opportunity to adopt one
                            day, as I believe it would be a life changing experience. I
                            certainly do not see extinction as the ideal, and I doubt that
                            anyone here actually does. To see VHEMT as an ideal does seem to be
                            based on hate - the ideal is surely to want to see a future with
                            humans. However, the sanest choice at the moment may be to decide to
                            phase us out if you consider the current rate of earthly
                            destruction. I view it only as a last resort and not the ideal
                            solution. I have heard that more right-brained children are being
                            born which suggests that humans are evolving to become more creative
                            and emotionally intelligent. These are called the Indigo Children.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > "Les U. Knight" <les@v...> wrote:
                            > AMEN, you wrote:
                            >
                            > >It did not go thru, <
                            >
                            > Yes, the site is down as a new server is installed.
                            >
                            > >and it better come from the Bible, and not some "teaching" from
                            some
                            > >human tradition you quote.<
                            >
                            > Naturally. The selected passages address some of your concerns.
                            >
                            > Les
                            >
                            > -- orig msg --
                            > The Bible teaches us that
                            > God has created all babies, and knows every hair on their head.
                            It also
                            > teaches to be fruitful and multiply. There is obviously no place
                            where it
                            > says to put any place or thing in creation above God's creation of
                            man. It
                            > tells man to have dominion over His creation, not to make himself
                            equal to
                            > it. Man has a spirit which animals don't, in addtion to other
                            things, you
                            > just don't like my God. Well at least I won't be stuck seeing you
                            when I
                            > die, since you want some other god. But I pray you wake up,
                            repent, and ask
                            > God to come into your life before it is too late. AMEN
                            >
                            >
                            > VHEMT Volunteers and Supporters may subscribe to
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Voluntary_Human_Extinction
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            >
                            > Visit your group "Why_VHEMT" on the web.
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > Why_VHEMT-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Send instant messages to your online friends
                            http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • iconicidenyc
                            ... Unnatural concentration or homogenization of any population births greater vulnerability to disease. That s why the Bubonic Plague was so *successful*.
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 23, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In Why_VHEMT@yahoogroups.com, "islesfan3421" <islesfan3421@y...>
                              wrote:

                              > Firstly, disease is disease, we don't create it, and obviously we
                              > have been more successful than any other species in eradicating it.

                              Unnatural concentration or homogenization of any population births
                              greater vulnerability to disease. That's why the Bubonic Plague was
                              so *successful*. Perpetuation of a condition that would not exist in
                              our absence equals creation, or damned close to.

                              > I fail to see a human role in BIRD FLU. I see many humans trying
                              to
                              > destroy it, however. I don't see how you can call me thoughtlessly
                              > zealous, as the philosophy I subscribe to is the natural course of
                              > life. To not reproduce is to run counter to basic genetic
                              > programming.

                              Fine, if genetic programming demands the extermination of all other
                              forms of life. As extinction is the inevitable outcome of your line
                              of thinking, you're making a very good argument for VHEMT.

                              > I would say that war is a very minor problem, in this day and age
                              > brought about by a few misguided individuals, rather than the
                              > massive affairs they used to be.

                              Total the police actions and 'not quite wars' we've had since the
                              last acknowledged World War, and try saying that with a straight face.

                              There is nobody to fight anymore,
                              > as we all have so many interests vested in one another.

                              There is EVERYBODY to fight now. We are supposedly at war with
                              terrorism. Tell me, exactly who IS terrorism?

                              I urge you
                              > to take a look at the "McDonald's effect" and its role in
                              preventing
                              > war.

                              Nice choice of words, as multinationals wage war on autonomy and
                              biological diversity.

                              Take it not as selfish greed, but rather a willingness to join
                              > together.

                              ARBEIT MACHT FREI!

                              I also find it typical that extreme groups (and VHEMT is
                              > extreme, you cannot deny that) tend to dismiss those that disagree
                              > as closed to new ideas and, of course, "thoughtless zealots".

                              Oh, and your attempt at Menifest destiny is a 'New Idea'. Bravo?

                              And
                              > your example of intentional destruction of food is an outdated one,
                              > reminiscent of a misguided Depression-Era policy.

                              I suggest you do some reseach before opening your mouth again.
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