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Emergency Antenna Platform System

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  • Hank Greeb
    From a friend in SW Ohio - might work for an upcoming next field day? When one looks at this one says, Duh! Why didn t we think of that years ago? Looks to
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 18, 2013
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      From a friend in SW Ohio - might work for an upcoming next field day?

      When one looks at this one says, "Duh! Why didn't we think of that years
      ago?" Looks to me plain old Mechanical/Electrical Engineering project.
      But it took a few High School folks who didn't know any better than
      to tackle the problem to make it work!

      ===================

      WN8U from Milford ARC sent this link to me...I found it fascinating. Any
      robotics enthusiasts in the local groups?

      http://wc2fd.com/index.php?title=Emergency_Antenna_Platform_System -73-
    • Mark
      That is a great invention! But, remember that light posts are usually owned by either utilities or corporations and getting permission from them to put a robot
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 18, 2013
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      • Tim Deater
        Course tossing an antenna up in a tree on private property would incur the same liability issues. We just need wireless antennas... lol ... corporations and
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 18, 2013
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          Course tossing an antenna up in a tree on private property would incur the same liability issues. 

          We just need wireless antennas...  lol

          On Jul 18, 2013 12:10 PM, "Mark" <k8mhz@...> wrote:
          >
          >  
          >
          > That is a great invention!
          >
          >  
          >
          > But, remember that light posts are usually owned by either utilities or corporations and getting permission from them to put a robot on one of their posts may be tricky.  They will be thinking of the liability aspects, like what if the robot lost it’s grip and fell on or injured someone?  Or what if the antenna got electrically energized and hurt someone?
          >
          >  
          >
          > For every silver lining, there usually is a cloud….or something like that.
          >
          >  
          >
          > J
          >
          >  
          >
          > 73
          >
          >  
          >
          > Mark K8MHZ
          >
          >  
          >
          >  
          >
          >  
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Hank Greeb
          > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:40 AM
          > To: westmichiganhams@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Emergency Antenna Platform System
          >
          >  
          >
          >  
          >
          > From a friend in SW Ohio - might work for an upcoming next field day?
          >
          > When one looks at this one says, "Duh! Why didn't we think of that years
          > ago?" Looks to me plain old Mechanical/Electrical Engineering project.
          > But it took a few High School folks who didn't know any better than
          > to tackle the problem to make it work!
          >
          > ===================
          >
          > WN8U from Milford ARC sent this link to me...I found it fascinating. Any
          > robotics enthusiasts in the local groups?
          >
          > http://wc2fd.com/index.php?title=Emergency_Antenna_Platform_System -73-
          >
          >

        • Richards
          ... ______________________________________________ I agree ! While I don t claim to know much about the risk of loss or legal liability liability in such cases
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 18, 2013
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            On 7/18/2013 12:19 PM, Tim Deater wrote:
            >
            >
            > Course tossing an antenna up in a tree on private property would incur
            > the same liability issues.
            >
            > We just need wireless antennas... lol

            ______________________________________________


            I agree !

            While I don't claim to know much about the
            risk of loss or legal liability liability in
            such cases ... I think this is a fairly low
            risk item - certainly lower risk than many
            temporary masts or towers and other temporary
            antenna installations I have seen.

            I think it is more likely the utility pole used
            will be a light pole, as used in the demo video,
            owned by a church, school, or shopping center,
            than an actually utility pole owned by a utility
            company, and permission may, therefore, be much
            easier to obtain than from an off site utility
            company.

            Moreover, I doubt this "nut" would fall too far
            from the "tree" if it were to fall, and it should
            be a fairly easy matter to keep people from
            standing directly under it during operations.
            Beyond that, a dipole is a dipole and if it let
            go, it would be same as falling from some other
            temporary support, as Tim suggests.

            So, while not offering a legal opinion by someone
            who really knows anything about this sort of thing,
            although I once assisted another lawyer obtain a
            seven figure Judgment against a tower manufacturer
            for product liability... I consider this is a fairly
            low risk item.

            BUT IT IS ALWAYS A GOOD IDEA TO ANALYZE AND DISCUSS
            THIS SORT OF THING - because it can only lead to
            better, safer and more sensible implementation.
            I wish more hams would pose such issues and ask
            this sort of question before embarking on any
            temporary mast or tower project.

            This is just MY take, after all... your mileage may vary.

            But, again, this is a very important consideration too rarely explored
            in such matters.

            --------------- K8JHR --------------------
          • n8xxham
            In case of emergency, I ve found it best to do what is needed first, and beg for forgiveness later if someone second guesses one s actions. Note that the
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 19, 2013
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              In case of emergency, I've found it best to do what is needed first, and beg for forgiveness later if someone "second guesses" one's actions.

              Note that the light pole in the video was a "yard light" type pole, on a parking lot, "probably" not owned by a municipality or other governmental agency. Since it was to be demonstrated widely, "probably" the trustee of the club station involve sought written permission for the demo.

              But, if I were in a situation where all the power was down, I had one of the robotic pole climbers and other stuff for a needed antenna for my repeater and/or a HF wire, I'd "just do it".

              One can be hemmed in by fear of whatever "might happen" to such a point which nothing can be done.

              72/73 de n8xx Hg
              QRP >99.44% of the time

              --- In WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <k8mhz@...> wrote:
              >
              > That is a great invention!
              >
              > But, remember that light posts are usually owned by either
              > utilities or corporations and getting permission from them to put
              > a robot on one of their posts may be tricky. They will be thinking
              > of the liability aspects, like what if the robot lost it's grip and
              > fell on or injured someone? Or what if the antenna got
              > electrically energized and hurt someone?
              >
              > For every silver lining, there usually is a cloud….or something
              > like that.
              >
              > :-)
              >
              > 73
              >
              > Mark K8MHZ
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Hank Greeb
              > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:40 AM
              > To: westmichiganhams@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Emergency Antenna Platform System
              >
              >
              > From a friend in SW Ohio - might work for an upcoming next field
              > day?
              >
              > When one looks at this one says, "Duh! Why didn't we think of that
              > years ago?" Looks to me plain old Mechanical/Electrical Engineering
              > project. But it took a few High School folks who didn't know any
              > better than to tackle the problem to make it work!
            • Richards
              ... That is a risky plan in a highly litigious society. probably the trustee of the club station involve sought written permission for the demo. I agree.
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 19, 2013
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                On 7/19/2013 11:21 AM, n8xxham wrote:
                > In case of emergency, I've found it best to do what is needed first, and beg for forgiveness later if someone "second guesses" one's actions.


                That is a risky plan in a highly litigious society.




                "probably" the trustee of the club station involve sought written
                permission for the demo.



                I agree. Mark's point applies in case of an
                actual emergency deployment where advance
                arrangements and permission unlikely.





                > But, if I were in a situation where all the power was down, I had one of the robotic pole climbers and other stuff for a needed antenna for my repeater and/or a HF wire, I'd "just do it".



                Understood. And most often you will be OK for
                acting first and asking questions later - but
                not always. I think it wise to consider the
                issues raised by Mark's post and be very careful
                so as to minimize risk and potential liability.
                In an emergency, one does what one must, but one
                must be very careful to avoid liability even in
                an emergency.



                > One can be hemmed in by fear of whatever "might happen" to such a point which nothing can be done.



                Yes. But acting without regard to an obvious
                and known risk may be foolish. One must carefully
                balance the need to provide emergency communications
                against the need to avoid doing so in a dangerous
                manner. Mark is wise to identify dangerous and
                risky aspects of this sort of operation. One cannot
                always avoid the risk of loss and liability to
                others simply by acting in good faith and pointing
                to the emergency nature of the operation.


                As with so many things, one will be judged on
                the reasonableness of his actions, and the
                extent of emergency will be but one factor in
                the assessment of what is reasonable under the
                circumstances.

                I may disagree with Mark on the extent of
                exposure to liability... but I strongly agree on
                the need for a careful assessment of the risk
                of loss and extent of liability in such cases.
                He raises a very important question that would
                apply to any similar operation. You may not
                be able to escape liability for a mishap by
                saying you were acting in good faith during
                an emergency.



                Just MY take.
                ===================== K8JHR ========================
              • Mark
                Jim, Thanks for your support! FWIW, I may look at safety a bit closer than others. I spent years working as a construction electrician. Part of our training
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 20, 2013
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                  Jim,

                  Thanks for your support!

                  FWIW, I may look at safety a bit closer than others. I spent years working
                  as a construction electrician. Part of our training was taking OSHA 10 and
                  OSHA 30 classes. Trust me, once OSHA presents their very graphic videos to
                  you, you will never again look at 'accidents' the same.

                  I also may have a more cautious take on being sued. At least once a month
                  in martial arts class we are instructed on how to not get sued for
                  protecting ourselves. We are told that pretty much, if you are an adult
                  martial artist and you kick the snot out of someone that has attacked you,
                  you WILL go to court and have to defend your actions. So, today, if you are
                  attacked you may have to defend yourself twice. Once on the street and then
                  again in court.

                  Was it like that 37 years ago when I first walked into a karate dojo? Not
                  even close. We did get instruction on legal issues, but it was mostly on
                  issues like excessive force. And it wasn't dwelled upon all that much. In
                  Tae Kwon Do, I don't even remember the subject being brought up.

                  I also had the good fortune over the years to work with engineers of all
                  sorts. The first time I saw the robot climb the pole all I could think of
                  was 'what could possibly go wrong?' and who was going to get smacked when
                  the thing let loose of it's hold.

                  Has anyone bothered to take a look at weapons laws in Michigan? Did you
                  know that slingshots are illegal in Michigan? Yes, even the kind we use for
                  putting up antennas. There are no exceptions, ALL slingshots are illegal in
                  Michigan.

                  Here is the law:

                  750.224 Weapons; manufacture, sale, or possession as felony; violation as
                  felony; penalty; exceptions; "muffler" or "silencer" defined.
                  Sec. 224.
                  (1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of
                  the following:
                  (a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot
                  automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single
                  function of the trigger.
                  (b) A muffler or silencer.
                  (c) A bomb or bombshell.
                  (d) A blackjack, slungshot, billy, metallic knuckles, sand club, sand bag,
                  or bludgeon.
                  (e) A device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance designed to
                  render a person temporarily or permanently disabled by the ejection,
                  release, or emission of a gas or other substance.
                  (2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a felony, punishable
                  by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not more than
                  $2,500.00, or both.
                  (3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
                  (a) A self-defense spray or foam device as defined in section 224d.
                  (b) A person manufacturing firearms, explosives, or munitions of war by
                  virtue of a contract with a department of the government of the United
                  States.
                  (c) A person licensed by the secretary of the treasury of the United States
                  or the secretary's delegate to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun,
                  or a device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance described in
                  subsection (1).
                  (4) As used in this chapter, "muffler" or "silencer" means 1 or more of the
                  following:
                  (a) A device for muffling, silencing, or deadening the report of a firearm.
                  (b) A combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in
                  assembling or fabricating a muffler or silencer.
                  (c) A part, designed or redesigned, and intended only for use in assembling
                  or fabricating a muffler or silencer.

                  History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.224 ;-- Am.
                  1959, Act 175, Eff. Mar. 19, 1960 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 564, Imd. Eff. Dec. 29,
                  1978 ;-- Am. 1980, Act 346, Eff. Mar. 31, 1981 ;-- Am. 1990, Act 321, Eff.
                  Mar. 28, 1991 ;-- Am. 1991, Act 33, Imd. Eff. June 10, 1991 ;-- Am. 2006,
                  Act 401, Eff. Dec. 28, 2006
                  Constitutionality: The Michigan supreme court held that the statute was not
                  unconstitutionally vague as applied to the defendant in People v Lynch, 410
                  Mich 343; 301 NW2d 796 (1981).
                  Former Law: See section 3 of Act 372 of 1927, being CL 1929, § 16751; and
                  Act 206 of 1929.

                  (c) 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan

                  Now, it may be argued that the actual word is 'slungshot' which of course is
                  a typo. Nonetheless, there is no exception for using any of the above to
                  put up antennas.

                  Notice that 'nunchucks' aren't part of the list? Many people think they are
                  illegal to possess, which they are not here in Michigan. Only four states
                  have laws against them.

                  I really like all the hams I know and that are part of this forum. I don't
                  want any of them to get sued and I surely don't want any of them to get
                  hurt.

                  If a retired lawyer is giving you advice, I would strongly consider taking
                  it. I am sure he has the same goal in mind as I did when I made the
                  original post, that goal being keeping people from getting sued or injured.

                  We want ham radio to bring us fun and happiness, not stress and injury.

                  73

                  Mark K8MHZ








                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                  Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 7:55 PM
                  To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Emergency Antenna Platform System


                  On 7/19/2013 11:21 AM, n8xxham wrote:
                  > In case of emergency, I've found it best to do what is needed first, and
                  beg for forgiveness later if someone "second guesses" one's actions.


                  That is a risky plan in a highly litigious society.




                  "probably" the trustee of the club station involve sought written
                  permission for the demo.



                  I agree. Mark's point applies in case of an
                  actual emergency deployment where advance
                  arrangements and permission unlikely.





                  > But, if I were in a situation where all the power was down, I had one of
                  the robotic pole climbers and other stuff for a needed antenna for my
                  repeater and/or a HF wire, I'd "just do it".



                  Understood. And most often you will be OK for
                  acting first and asking questions later - but
                  not always. I think it wise to consider the
                  issues raised by Mark's post and be very careful
                  so as to minimize risk and potential liability.
                  In an emergency, one does what one must, but one
                  must be very careful to avoid liability even in
                  an emergency.



                  > One can be hemmed in by fear of whatever "might happen" to such a point
                  which nothing can be done.



                  Yes. But acting without regard to an obvious
                  and known risk may be foolish. One must carefully
                  balance the need to provide emergency communications
                  against the need to avoid doing so in a dangerous
                  manner. Mark is wise to identify dangerous and
                  risky aspects of this sort of operation. One cannot
                  always avoid the risk of loss and liability to
                  others simply by acting in good faith and pointing
                  to the emergency nature of the operation.


                  As with so many things, one will be judged on
                  the reasonableness of his actions, and the
                  extent of emergency will be but one factor in
                  the assessment of what is reasonable under the
                  circumstances.

                  I may disagree with Mark on the extent of
                  exposure to liability... but I strongly agree on
                  the need for a careful assessment of the risk
                  of loss and extent of liability in such cases.
                  He raises a very important question that would
                  apply to any similar operation. You may not
                  be able to escape liability for a mishap by
                  saying you were acting in good faith during
                  an emergency.



                  Just MY take.
                  ===================== K8JHR ========================


                  ------------------------------------

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