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RE: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

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  • Mark
    Did you just call Tom old? ... Again, congrats on the upgrade. 73 Mark K8MHZ ... From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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      Did you just call Tom old?
       
      :)
       
      Again, congrats on the upgrade.
       
      73
       
      Mark K8MHZ
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
      Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:02 PM
      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

       

      Well I made General at the Holland Club old location at the house and then I heard an old Friend was  giving
      an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.   So last spring was the class in GR for EXTRA
      and the previous Spring was the General which I helped a friend out and gave a ride too. 
      My apologize to the other fella for not signing my post, sometimes we forget these things when normally
      you just view others notices and ideas here...

      (Thank you Holland Club and Tom KT8B)

      Tim N8NET

      On 12/30/2012 10:11 AM, Mark wrote:
       

      

      Hi Tim,
       
      I just saw you were an Extra.  When did that happen?????  Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General.
       
      Congrats.
       
      73
       
      Mark K8MHZ
       
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
      Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:25 PM
      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

       

      Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
      miss the net.
      Tim N8NET

      On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
       

      

      Hi Tim,
       
      From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
       
      Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
       
      Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
       
      :)
       
      73
       
      Mark K8MHZ
      -----Original Message-----
      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
      Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

       
      People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
      If someone driving through an area where people are using
      146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
      people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
      guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
      monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
      capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
      the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
      repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
      repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
      but me during what we once called Drive Time.
       So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
      as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
      leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
      And I totally disagree with Joe
      as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
      only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
      by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
      either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
      comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
      Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
      people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
      I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
      comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

      On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
       

      Exactly as you say.

      -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

      On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
      >
      >
      > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
      > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
      > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
      > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
      > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
      > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
      > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
      > general monitoring.
      > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Richards <jruing@...>
      > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
      > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
      > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
      >
      > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
      > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
      > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
      > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
      > channel to the cause.
      >
      > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
      >
      > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
      > > We hope you will join us.
      > > 73
      > > Art Snapper NK8X
      > >
      > >________________________________________
      >
      >
      >




    • TM
      Well I am old too..... Tim N8NET ... Well I am old too..... Tim N8NET On 12/30/2012 12:31 PM, Mark wrote:    Did you just call Tom old?   ...   Again,
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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        Well I am old too.....
        Tim N8NET

        On 12/30/2012 12:31 PM, Mark wrote:
         

        

        Did you just call Tom old?
         
        :)
         
        Again, congrats on the upgrade.
         
        73
         
        Mark K8MHZ
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
        Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:02 PM
        To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

         

        Well I made General at the Holland Club old location at the house and then I heard an old Friend was  giving
        an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.   So last spring was the class in GR for EXTRA
        and the previous Spring was the General which I helped a friend out and gave a ride too. 
        My apologize to the other fella for not signing my post, sometimes we forget these things when normally
        you just view others notices and ideas here...

        (Thank you Holland Club and Tom KT8B)

        Tim N8NET

        On 12/30/2012 10:11 AM, Mark wrote:
         

        

        Hi Tim,
         
        I just saw you were an Extra.  When did that happen?????  Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General.
         
        Congrats.
         
        73
         
        Mark K8MHZ
         
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
        Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:25 PM
        To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

         
        Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
        miss the net.
        Tim N8NET

        On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
         

        

        Hi Tim,
         
        From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
         
        Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
         
        Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
         
        :)
         
        73
         
        Mark K8MHZ
        -----Original Message-----
        From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
        Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
        To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

         
        People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
        If someone driving through an area where people are using
        146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
        people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
        guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
        monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
        capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
        the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
        repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
        repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
        but me during what we once called Drive Time.
         So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
        as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
        leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
        And I totally disagree with Joe
        as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
        only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
        by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
        either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
        comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
        Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
        people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
        I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
        comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

        On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
         

        Exactly as you say.

        -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

        On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
        > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
        > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
        > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
        > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
        > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
        > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
        > general monitoring.
        > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Richards <jruing@...>
        > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
        > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
        > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
        >
        > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
        > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
        > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
        > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
        > channel to the cause.
        >
        > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
        >
        > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
        > > We hope you will join us.
        > > 73
        > > Art Snapper NK8X
        > >
        > >________________________________________
        >
        >
        >





    • a_snapper
      Here is some background on the net. This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to
      Message 3 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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        Here is some background on the net.

        This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to communicate via normal means.

        I.E. when you emerged from a shelter and realized communications infrastructure (including ham) was disabled, and government agencies were rendered ineffective.

        Recent examples are Hurricane Katrina, and the Indonesian tsunami.

        West Michigan is relatively disaster-benign, but you never know.

        Some situations so dire, that amateur communications could have more value than merely a supplement to the ARES/RACES disaster response responsibilities. (i.e.damage assessment, ARC support)

        At this point, the radio operator could become a unique, autonomous communicator. Establishing a communications circuit,(2 or more hams) would benefit both the individuals and the community.

        Our plans for such a worse case scenario are in my opinion - weak. It seems to me that our network needs to be operational at the local level before we focus attention on restoring regional communications.

        An exception to this might be when calling in mutual aid resources. Of course, then the question becomes, where to put them.

        Since amateur radio is interoperable by nature, we are given an advantage over other communication services.

        When communications infrastructure is down, and lacking other plans, it logically follows to use a simplex calling frequency. Thus the use of .52 simplex for this net.

        An invitation was sent to over 500 amateur radio operators, and I was careful to extend it to all hams, not just ARES/RACES people.



        Thanks and 73,
        Art Snapper NK8X
      • Richards
        Yeah !! Congratulations on making EXTRA !!! ... _______________________________________
        Message 4 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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          Yeah !! Congratulations on making EXTRA !!!

          --------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

          On 12/30/2012 12:01 PM, TM wrote:

          > then I heard an old Friend was giving
          > an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.

          _______________________________________
        • Richards
          ... Since you ask... Because others want to monitor the calling frequency on their radios, and make contact when someone else calls in. But if two or three
          Message 5 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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            On 12/30/2012 10:56 AM, Mark wrote:

            > If the people chatting on '52 readily give up the
            > frequency, how do they impede the process of making a contact? In
            > actuality, they may even be able to assist people in their attempts to
            > make contacts.?

            --------------------------------------------------------------

            Since you ask...

            Because others want to monitor the calling
            frequency on their radios, and make contact
            when someone else calls in. But if two or three
            fellers monopolize the frequency for a 3 hour
            rag chew, other operators have to lock that
            frequency out and stop scanning it, or else their
            scanners would stick on that one frequency and
            play the three hour rag chew - it won't scan if
            there is a signal, and if they talk for 3 hours that
            is all I would ever hear, and my rig won't scan any
            other channel until they stop. Totally defeats
            my ability to listen for OTHER operators, such as
            those who might be cruising through town and
            look for a brief conversation or for directions to
            find gas, a restaurant, or the like. I have simply
            had to lock out the calling frequency and no longer
            monitor it - because they will tie up my rig for
            hours every day with pretty much the same
            old schtick - which they are entitled to talk about,
            but I cannot make contact with anyone else
            who might cruise through town until they get off.

            I know many hams who have simply given up
            monitoring the calling frequency, because it
            does not work as it could.

            This is a hot topic, so I don't wanna do any
            more than answer your question as to how it
            matters to other operators. Not illegal... just
            defeats the calling frequency idea.

            Sorry, Tom... I live by the highway and when I
            got into ham radio, I was sorta looking forward to
            talking to people on the radio, but have had to
            give up on the calling freq concept. Since everybody
            wants to be PC and not rock the boat, it just goes
            on as you say.

            ---------------------------- K8JHR --------------------
          • Richards
            OK... we all know Tim is a stand up guy and not the type to snipe or hide who he is. Thanks for the clarification. ... _____________________________________
            Message 6 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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              OK... we all know Tim is a stand up guy and not the
              type to snipe or hide who he is. Thanks for the clarification.

              -------------------------- JHR -----------------------

              On 12/30/2012 9:53 AM, Mark wrote:
              >
              > That wasn't an anonymous post. He just didn't sign it.

              _____________________________________
            • Richards
              This raises interesting and important questions, Art. I wonder how it would actually play out, if there really is such a wide reaching, large scale disaster,
              Message 7 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                This raises interesting and important questions, Art.

                I wonder how it would actually play out, if there really
                is such a wide reaching, large scale disaster, and every
                ham in town wanted to get on the air for all the various
                reasons they would have to do so.

                Personally, I envision chaos would be a good result, but
                I fear it could be far worse without some coordination and
                a lot of patient courtesy among the entire flock.

                But that is the point - it would be helpful to find out
                before a disaster occurs what might go down, and see
                whether or not there is a workable plan for avoiding
                chaos and rendering it useful.

                I agree the plan to include all hams was a good idea.

                I suspect it might have been more useful, and more
                widely "attended" had it been explained more fully,
                and announced more in advance. Nevertheless, it
                raises important questions, and serves as a starting
                point for further work.

                Happy trails.

                -------------------- K8JHR ----------------------------



                On 12/30/2012 2:39 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Here is some background on the net.
                >
                > This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to communicate via normal means.
                >
                > I.E. when you emerged from a shelter and realized communications infrastructure (including ham) was disabled, and government agencies were rendered ineffective.
                >
                > Recent examples are Hurricane Katrina, and the Indonesian tsunami.
                >
                > West Michigan is relatively disaster-benign, but you never know.
                >
                > Some situations so dire, that amateur communications could have more value than merely a supplement to the ARES/RACES disaster response responsibilities. (i.e.damage assessment, ARC support)
                >
                > At this point, the radio operator could become a unique, autonomous communicator. Establishing a communications circuit,(2 or more hams) would benefit both the individuals and the community.
                >
                > Our plans for such a worse case scenario are in my opinion - weak. It seems to me that our network needs to be operational at the local level before we focus attention on restoring regional communications.
                >
                > An exception to this might be when calling in mutual aid resources. Of course, then the question becomes, where to put them.
                >
                > Since amateur radio is interoperable by nature, we are given an advantage over other communication services.
                >
                > When communications infrastructure is down, and lacking other plans, it logically follows to use a simplex calling frequency. Thus the use of .52 simplex for this net.
                >
                > An invitation was sent to over 500 amateur radio operators, and I was careful to extend it to all hams, not just ARES/RACES people.
                >
                >
                >
                > Thanks and 73,
                > Art Snapper NK8X
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • wd8usa@aol.com
                Very thoughtful insights Mr. Snapper- Well spoken! All look, Read and learn!! Good stuff! DE WD8USA ...-.- ... From: a_snapper To:
                Message 8 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                  Very thoughtful insights Mr. Snapper- Well spoken!  All look, Read and learn!! Good stuff! DE WD8USA   ...-.-


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: a_snapper <art@...>
                  To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sun, Dec 30, 2012 2:39 pm
                  Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                   


                  Here is some background on the net.

                  This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to communicate via normal means.

                  I.E. when you emerged from a shelter and realized communications infrastructure (including ham) was disabled, and government agencies were rendered ineffective.

                  Recent examples are Hurricane Katrina, and the Indonesian tsunami.

                  West Michigan is relatively disaster-benign, but you never know.

                  Some situations so dire, that amateur communications could have more value than merely a supplement to the ARES/RACES disaster response responsibilities. (i.e.damage assessment, ARC support)

                  At this point, the radio operator could become a unique, autonomous communicator. Establishing a communications circuit,(2 or more hams) would benefit both the individuals and the community.

                  Our plans for such a worse case scenario are in my opinion - weak. It seems to me that our network needs to be operational at the local level before we focus attention on restoring regional communications.

                  An exception to this might be when calling in mutual aid resources. Of course, then the question becomes, where to put them.

                  Since amateur radio is interoperable by nature, we are given an advantage over other communication services.

                  When communications infrastructure is down, and lacking other plans, it logically follows to use a simplex calling frequency. Thus the use of .52 simplex for this net.

                  An invitation was sent to over 500 amateur radio operators, and I was careful to extend it to all hams, not just ARES/RACES people.

                  Thanks and 73,
                  Art Snapper NK8X

                • wd8usa@aol.com
                  If the calling Freq is tied up with local chit chat you decrease your chances of a contact when needed as those that tie up that call Freq will be the only
                  Message 9 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                    If the "calling Freq" is tied up with local chit chat you decrease your chances of a contact when needed as those that tie up that "call Freq" will be the only ones listening-
                     A call freq is just that call, and move off!
                    DE WD8USA   ...-.-


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Richards <jruing@...>
                    To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sun, Dec 30, 2012 3:01 am
                    Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                     
                    I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

                    Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
                    It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
                    it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
                    the same reason.

                    ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

                    On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

                    > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                    > If someone driving through an area where people are using
                    > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                    > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.

                  • Mark
                    Hi Jim, Thanks for the reply. I can see both sides of the issue, I think. So here are some questions: Totally defeats my ability to listen for OTHER
                    Message 10 of 30 , Dec 31, 2012
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                      Hi Jim,
                       
                      Thanks for the reply.  I can see both sides of the issue, I think.  So here are some questions:
                       
                      "Totally defeats
                      my ability to listen for OTHER operators, such as
                      those who might be cruising through town and
                      look for a brief conversation or for directions to
                      find gas, a restaurant, or the like."
                       
                      The conversational users of the '52 can't give directions and/or other local information?  I am pretty sure that someone cruising through town looking for a brief conversation would get their wish, as well.  So, it's your ability to listen, not your ability to make a call that is 'defeated', correct?
                       
                       
                      "But if two or three
                      fellers monopolize the frequency for a 3 hour
                      rag chew, other operators have to lock that
                      frequency out and stop scanning it, or else their
                      scanners would stick on that one frequency and
                      play the three hour rag chew - it won't scan if
                      there is a signal, and if they talk for 3 hours that
                      is all I would ever hear, and my rig won't scan any
                      other channel until they stop."
                       
                      Does your rig not change channels because the '52 ops aren't allowing a second or two between exchanges, or is it because your scanning feature is set to delay?  Or just delays and has no 'instantaneous' feature?  Some radios also have features for a time limit, like 2 seconds for stopping on scan. 
                       
                      "which they are entitled to talk about,
                      but I cannot make contact with anyone else
                      who might cruise through town until they get off."
                       
                      So, why can't you break in and make a contact? 
                       
                      "I know many hams who have simply given up
                      monitoring the calling frequency, because it
                      does not work as it could."
                       
                      Truthfully, what do you think makes the most people not monitor '52, a few guys chatting for 3 out of 24 hours, or no traffic at all, for days, weeks and even months on end?
                       
                      "This is a hot topic, so I don't wanna do any
                      more than answer your question as to how it
                      matters to other operators. Not illegal... just
                      defeats the calling frequency idea."
                       
                      It is also a topic in which rational discussion may lead to some long term improvements.  Did you know that when calling frequencies were first contrived, it was standard practice to stay there and have conversations?  This was prior to the VFO days.  It wasn't until maybe 20 years ago that someone, the ARRL perhaps, came up with the idea that once the contact was made to clear the frequency.  That practice was swiped from the marine radio service, Ch. 16 VHF.
                       
                      Learning a little about the history of calling frequencies shows that the way they have been used throughout history has changed.  Maybe it's time to once again reconsider the methodology behind the use of  '52.
                       
                      "Sorry, Tom... I live by the highway and when I
                      got into ham radio, I was sorta looking forward to
                      talking to people on the radio, but have had to
                      give up on the calling freq concept. Since everybody
                      wants to be PC and not rock the boat, it just goes
                      on as you say."
                       
                      Why does the boat have to be rocked?  Is it all that tough to discuss uses and possible changes of a single frequency without getting emotional about it?  As for talking to people, aren't the number of people on '52 simplex a minutia compared to the number of folks on the repeaters, especially the linked system? 
                       
                      To be honest, and Tim N8NET can vouch for this, I was first totally against rag chewing on '52.   So I decided to check the 'culprits' out.
                       
                      1)  Would they let me break in with no problem?   --  Yep.
                       
                      2)  Would they stop chatting long enough for me to make a call?  -- Yep.
                       
                      3)  Would they let me join the QSO?  -- Yep.
                       
                      4)  Would any one of them QSY with me because I didn't want to tie up the '52 -- Yep.
                       
                      Hmmm.....they aren't breaking any rules, they all seemed to be accommodating and polite. So I reconsidered.  I also found out that this issue is going on all over the US, and not just on 2 meters.  People are actually rag chewing on the 6 m SSB calling frequency, too.
                       
                       I also found out that one of Rileys career highlights was erroneously citing some hams for rag chewing on the '52.  Riley was big time wrong and had to rescind the citations.
                       
                      I guess that's part of the calling frequency history, too.
                       
                      73
                       
                      Mark K8MHZ
                       
                      PS  I think I may change my QRZ signature to '146.52?  Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded'.
                       
                      :)


                       
                       
                       
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                      Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 5:20 PM
                      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                       



                      On 12/30/2012 10:56 AM, Mark wrote:

                      > If the people chatting on '52 readily give up the
                      > frequency, how do they impede the process of making a contact? In
                      > actuality, they may even be able to assist people in their attempts to
                      > make contacts.?

                      ----------------------------------------------------------

                      Since you ask...

                      Because others want to monitor the calling
                      frequency on their radios, and make contact
                      when someone else calls in. But if two or three
                      fellers monopolize the frequency for a 3 hour
                      rag chew, other operators have to lock that
                      frequency out and stop scanning it, or else their
                      scanners would stick on that one frequency and
                      play the three hour rag chew - it won't scan if
                      there is a signal, and if they talk for 3 hours that
                      is all I would ever hear, and my rig won't scan any
                      other channel until they stop. Totally defeats
                      my ability to listen for OTHER operators, such as
                      those who might be cruising through town and
                      look for a brief conversation or for directions to
                      find gas, a restaurant, or the like. I have simply
                      had to lock out the calling frequency and no longer
                      monitor it - because they will tie up my rig for
                      hours every day with pretty much the same
                      old schtick - which they are entitled to talk about,
                      but I cannot make contact with anyone else
                      who might cruise through town until they get off.

                      I know many hams who have simply given up
                      monitoring the calling frequency, because it
                      does not work as it could.

                      This is a hot topic, so I don't wanna do any
                      more than answer your question as to how it
                      matters to other operators. Not illegal... just
                      defeats the calling frequency idea.

                      Sorry, Tom... I live by the highway and when I
                      got into ham radio, I was sorta looking forward to
                      talking to people on the radio, but have had to
                      give up on the calling freq concept. Since everybody
                      wants to be PC and not rock the boat, it just goes
                      on as you say.

                      ---------------------------- K8JHR --------------------

                    • Richards
                      ... Sure... but that cuts me and everybody else out. They continue to monopolize the channel. ... Both... but you are getting it. ... Good questions.
                      Message 11 of 30 , Dec 31, 2012
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                        > The conversational users of the '52 can't give directions and/or other
                        > local information?


                        Sure... but that cuts me and everybody
                        else out. They continue to monopolize
                        the channel.



                        > it's your ability to listen, not your ability to make a call that is
                        > 'defeated', correct?


                        Both... but you are getting it.




                        > Does your rig not change channels because the '52 ops aren't allowing a
                        > second or two between exchanges, or is it because your scanning feature
                        > is set to delay? Or just delays and has no 'instantaneous' feature?
                        > Some radios also have features for a time limit, like 2 seconds for
                        > stopping on scan.


                        Good questions. Let's put it into perspective
                        with an example - the guys on 53 pause a bit
                        to catch their breath, as is usual in any conversation,
                        so the rig releases the channel and scans. Then
                        it scans for another busy channel.

                        Finding none busy, it catches 52 when they start
                        up again - and instead of my listening for a contact,
                        I end up listening to them rag chew.

                        Or, let's assume the rig finds another busy channel,
                        say, the Lowell repeater, then it holds that until
                        they take a break, and then the guys on 52 catch
                        the attention of the scanner, and we are back to
                        them until they catch their breath again.

                        But... in any case, all the while 52 continues their
                        local rag chew session, I cannot monitor 52 and
                        make my own contacts. If a traveler does cut
                        into their conversation, THEY get the contact
                        and handle the questions... in any case, they
                        cut me out.

                        But wait... there's more:

                        Meanwhile, nobody can call ME on 52 and ask
                        ME to QSY to a simplex channel. I cannot call
                        YOU to make contact, and QSY with you to another
                        channel. I cannot call you - even if I interrupt
                        them - because you and the rest of the ham
                        community quit monitoring the channel long ago.

                        I should not have to beg permission from the
                        other guys to use 52 to make a new contact.
                        The whole idea is that it is always open for that
                        sort of thing. But you cannot call me on 52, either,
                        because I blocked that frequency on the scanner
                        so I don't have to listen to their rag chew session
                        every afternoon.

                        And this actually matters, because none of my
                        ham friends monitor 52 any more - because they
                        don't want to listen to those guys every day, hoping
                        somebody else will cut in - but, again, if they are on
                        they will deal with the new contact, I will have to
                        barge in and steal the contact to get involved, and
                        nobody is going to work that hard.

                        Unfortunately, it seems this way in a lot of places
                        across the country, so many traveling hams don't
                        even try 52 any more. But, maybe they would if
                        it worked the way it might.




                        > So, why can't you break in and make a contact?


                        Because I should not have to. It is supposed
                        to be open so anyone can call and make
                        contact and then leave it open to the
                        rest of the community to do so.

                        Besides, none of my friends monitor 52 any
                        more, so they are not listening for me to
                        call them there. They don't wanna listen to
                        the rag chew guys all afternoon, either, so they
                        simply don't monitor 52 any more... again,
                        defeating the whole idea of an open calling
                        frequency for everybody. That effectively
                        converts it into their personal, private channel,
                        and defeats the notion of an open, free for all
                        calling frequency.



                        > Truthfully, what do you think makes the most people not monitor '52, a
                        > few guys chatting for 3 out of 24 hours, or no traffic at all, for days,
                        > weeks and even months on end?

                        Good question. I doubt we can say for sure
                        either way, but I think it is most likely that
                        there is no traffic on 52 because so many
                        hams have killed it off in this manner. This
                        has been discussed on many nationwide internet
                        ham discussion groups, so it seems to be a problem
                        in many places, and it is possible the majority of
                        hams have has simply given up on 52 - so nobody
                        uses it much in this way any more.

                        That means a few has changed it for the many,
                        and considering I am one of the many, I lament
                        the loss of something good.





                        > It is also a topic in which rational discussion may lead to some long
                        > term improvements.


                        Yes... so far it has been plenty civil here.




                        It wasn't until maybe 20
                        > years ago that someone, the ARRL perhaps, came up with the idea that
                        > once the contact was made to clear the frequency. That practice was
                        > swiped from the marine radio service, Ch. 16 VHF.
                        > Learning a little about the history of calling frequencies shows that
                        > the way they have been used throughout history has changed. Maybe it's
                        > time to once again reconsider the methodology behind the use of '52.



                        Perhaps you are right. Perhaps it is changing
                        on its own, in an organic way, as opposed to
                        any intentional plan promulgated from above.




                        > Why does the boat have to be rocked? Is it all that tough to discuss
                        > uses and possible changes of a single frequency without getting
                        > emotional about it? As for talking to people, aren't the number of
                        > people on '52 simplex a minutia compared to the number of folks on the
                        > repeaters, especially the linked system?


                        You may be right about the statistics.

                        Unfortunately, no matter how civil and how
                        rational the debate is HERE... and it has been,
                        it is impossible to discuss the matter with the
                        crowd on 52. They say it is "legal" and have
                        no patience or interest in discussing the impact
                        or significance of any general understandings,
                        or gentlemens' agreements, and the conversation
                        is over. I negotiated the resolution of hundreds
                        of heated disputes, including a fair number of
                        heated divorces, but diplomacy has not chance
                        for success. I mentioned this to an ARRL Section
                        Manager - and he told me to simply give up and
                        let them go. It is this sort of "tolerance" that
                        allows a minority to overtake the majority.




                        > To be honest, and Tim N8NET can vouch for this, I was first totally
                        > against rag chewing on '52. So I decided to check the 'culprits' out.

                        > 1) Would they let me break in with no problem? -- Yep.
                        > 2) Would they stop chatting long enough for me to make a call? -- Yep.
                        > 3) Would they let me join the QSO? -- Yep.
                        > 4) Would any one of them QSY with me because I didn't want to tie up
                        > the '52 -- Yep.




                        Yes... but they should do this as
                        a matter of courtesy to others.


                        > Hmmm.....they aren't breaking any rules, they all seemed to be
                        > accommodating and polite. So I reconsidered. I also found out that this
                        > issue is going on all over the US, and not just on 2 meters. People are
                        > actually rag chewing on the 6 m SSB calling frequency, too.



                        OK... then I suppose we will have to give up
                        the whole notion of a calling frequency.

                        While they might have yield easily... the
                        whole point is that no one should have to
                        ask for it.

                        They don't violate any rules, per se... but they
                        unilaterally void a useful common practice.


                        We are now sliding down the old slippery slope.
                        How far are you willing to go... should we also
                        abandon the band plans ? After all, those are not
                        mandated by the Rules, either. How many long
                        established practices should yield to a few guys
                        who don't wanna play ball? Should my friends
                        and I set conduct our 6 hour nightly net on the
                        MidCars frequency, or the one used by the ARRL
                        for code practice bulletins? That would be legal,
                        and not violate any rules. Should we move our
                        SSB net into the CW portion of the band, because,
                        after all, it gets kinda crowded in the phone
                        portion of the band ? How many of the long
                        established gentlemens' agreements are we
                        willing to void in this way?




                        > I also found out that one of Rileys career highlights was erroneously
                        > citing some hams for rag chewing on the '52. Riley was big time wrong
                        > and had to rescind the citations. I guess that's part of the calling frequency history, too.


                        Yes. No doubt no one is operating illegally...
                        just operating so as to defeat notion of a calling
                        frequency. The fact they call it such gives it
                        meaning. Otherwise it is just another simplex
                        channel.

                        Perhaps there are not enough hams willing
                        to stand by the practice to support and
                        maintain it. Like so many things in our
                        socio-political environment, few are willing
                        to stand up and speak out - they just go
                        with the flow, and while that is their choice,
                        it is not mine. Silly me... I speak my mind!
                        ;-) The XYL thinks I will get shot for that
                        someday ... ;-)


                        GOOD QUESTIONS-- GOOD DISCUSSION HERE.

                        I APPEARS I MAY BE OUT-VOTED ON THE ISSUE... ;-)


                        HAPPY DAYS AND HAPPY HOLIDAY, MARK.

                        ________________JHR___________________
                      • Mark
                        Happy New Year, Jim! Most advice about ham radio practice centers around the just spin the knob paradigm. Or, basically ignore it. The Internet allows us to
                        Message 12 of 30 , Jan 1, 2013
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                          Happy New Year, Jim!
                           
                          Most advice about ham radio practice centers around the 'just spin the knob' paradigm.  Or, basically ignore it.
                           
                          The Internet allows us to do both, spin the knob when we don't like what is going on, and also voice our concerns to other hams off the air.
                           
                          There is a problem with that.  People get brave behind the keyboard and many of them simply toss etiquette out the window.  We have to remember to remain as emotionally neutral as possible, but still keep the opinion intact. 
                           
                          Many times, it's not what people say, but how they say it. 
                           
                          ----Break----
                           
                          Here is some more info on the '52.  First, you have to remember that I started looking for info on the '52 freq. to support a stance just like the one you have now.  Well, as you see, I haven't had much luck.   I just looked at a 1995 ARRL repeater directory.  144.200 is listed as the national calling frequency.  146.52 is listed simply as the "national simplex frequency".  The word 'calling' is not present.
                           
                          I don't know if the new versions are different.  If they are, then the change occurred sometime after 1995.  I found an old (2006) discussion on QRZ about it and from the banter there, the ARRL had already added the 'calling' thing at that point.  It is currently listed on arrl.org as 'national simplex calling frequency'.
                           
                          Now, I hate politics and I am not into ARRL bashing or anything of the like, so I tend to look at things mathematically.  
                           
                          The ARRL consists of a very small minority of licensed operators and the upper echelon of that organization has already admitted they exist for self-preservation (and I understand this) and not necessarily to represent the entire membership, nor hams in general.  And realize, if they did not make self preservation a major concern, they would have been gone long ago.  It is a strategy that simply has to be. 
                           
                          There are a large number of licensed, active hams that don't really agree with the ARRL and prefer to follow the FCC's rules instead.  Who are we to say that they can't or that following the ARRL's rules is a requirement for 'good operating practice'?
                           
                          Considering that the FCC indeed does require good operating practices (97.101), their opinion on the use of 146.52 must reflect that.   So....here it is:
                           
                          "NEWINGTON, CT, Oct 23, 2002--FCC Special Counsel for Enforcement Riley Hollingsworth has told five amateurs in Ohio and Michigan to disregard his earlier admonition to avoid lengthy QSOs on 146.52 MHz. Acknowledging that some confusion (sic!) exists within the amateur community as to whether 146.52 is a national calling channel or just another simplex frequency, Hollingsworth decided to simply rescind the five advisory notices he'd sent October 15.

                          "We made an error in issuing that Advisory Notice, and you may disregard it," Hollingsworth wrote today in letters sent to each of the affected amateurs. Commenting to ARRL, Hollingsworth was blunt yet good-natured. "I goofed," he said. "If I were worried about making a fool of myself from time to time, I never would have become a lawyer in the first place." "
                           
                          I think this is a good place to pause.  :)
                           
                          Oh, my New Year's resolution is to get some antennas, especially my 2m/440 one outside.  Then I could actually listen to 146.52 and see (hear) what I am missing.
                           
                          73
                           
                          Mark K8MHZ
                           
                           

                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          Yes. No doubt no one is operating illegally...
                          just operating so as to defeat notion of a calling
                          frequency. The fact they call it such gives it
                          meaning. Otherwise it is just another simplex
                          channel.

                          Perhaps there are not enough hams willing
                          to stand by the practice to support and
                          maintain it. Like so many things in our
                          socio-political environment, few are willing
                          to stand up and speak out - they just go
                          with the flow, and while that is their choice,
                          it is not mine. Silly me... I speak my mind!
                          ;-) The XYL thinks I will get shot for that
                          someday ... ;-)


                          GOOD QUESTIONS-- GOOD DISCUSSION HERE.

                          I APPEARS I MAY BE OUT-VOTED ON THE ISSUE... ;-)

                          HAPPY DAYS AND HAPPY HOLIDAY, MARK.

                          ________________JHR___________________

                        • Richards
                          Good Post, Mark -- a lot of buckshot in that one little shell! Happy days.
                          Message 13 of 30 , Jan 1, 2013
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                            Good Post, Mark -- a lot of buckshot in that one little shell!

                            Happy days.

                            ----------------------- JHR ------------------------------------
                          • Mark
                            Thanks Jim, Really, not much, if any of the info is mine, personally. I found it on the Net and just passed it on in somewhat of a condensed version. 73 Mark
                            Message 14 of 30 , Jan 1, 2013
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                              Thanks Jim,
                               
                              Really, not much, if any of the info is mine, personally.  I found it on the 'Net and just passed it on in somewhat of a condensed version.
                               
                              73
                               
                              Mark K8MHZ
                               
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                              Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 6:12 PM
                              To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                               

                              Good Post, Mark -- a lot of buckshot in that one little shell!

                              Happy days.

                              ----------------------- JHR ------------------------------------

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