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RE: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

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  • Mark
    Hi Tim, From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes. Correct? Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything? I kind
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 29, 2012
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      Hi Tim,
       
      From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
       
      Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
       
      Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
       
      :)
       
      73
       
      Mark K8MHZ
      -----Original Message-----
      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
      Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

       

      People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
      If someone driving through an area where people are using
      146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
      people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
      guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
      monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
      capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
      the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
      repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
      repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
      but me during what we once called Drive Time.
       So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
      as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
      leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
      And I totally disagree with Joe
      as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
      only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
      by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
      either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
      comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
      Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
      people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
      I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
      comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

      On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
       

      Exactly as you say.

      -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

      On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
      >
      >
      > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
      > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
      > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
      > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
      > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
      > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
      > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
      > general monitoring.
      > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Richards <jruing@...>
      > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
      > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
      > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
      >
      > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
      > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
      > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
      > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
      > channel to the cause.
      >
      > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
      >
      > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
      > > We hope you will join us.
      > > 73
      > > Art Snapper NK8X
      > >
      > >________________________________________
      >
      >
      >


    • Jeff Nawrot
      We had 27 contacts in Kent County. I believe Kalamazoo was pretty close to the same. ... -- Thank You -- ... This message has been prepared on resources owned
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 29, 2012
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        We had 27 contacts in Kent County.  I believe Kalamazoo was pretty close to the same. 



        On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Mark <k8mhz28@...> wrote:
         

        Hi Tim,
         
        From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
         
        Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
         
        Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
         
        :)
         
        73
         
        Mark K8MHZ
        -----Original Message-----
        From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
        Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
        To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

         

        People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
        If someone driving through an area where people are using
        146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
        people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
        guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
        monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
        capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
        the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
        repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
        repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
        but me during what we once called Drive Time.
         So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
        as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
        leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
        And I totally disagree with Joe
        as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
        only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
        by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
        either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
        comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
        Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
        people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
        I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
        comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

        On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
         

        Exactly as you say.

        -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

        On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
        > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
        > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
        > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
        > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
        > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
        > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
        > general monitoring.
        > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Richards <jruing@...>
        > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
        > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
        > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
        >
        > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
        > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
        > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
        > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
        > channel to the cause.
        >
        > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
        >
        > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
        > > We hope you will join us.
        > > 73
        > > Art Snapper NK8X
        > >
        > >________________________________________
        >
        >
        >





        --
        Thank You




        -- 




        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        This message has been prepared on resources owned by Kent County Emergency Services
        Team Inc. It is subject to the Acceptable Use Policy and Procedures of KCEST.
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Jeffrey Nawrot (N8JSN)
        Director 
        Kent County Emergency Service Team
        Search and Rescue, Communications, Events
        www.kentcountysar.org |www.Kcest.org | www.kcraces.net
        NASAR SARTECH 2®
        Emergency Response Services/SAR Services Coordinator - Fortune Bay Expedition Team
        Personal Cell Non-Emergency -    (616) 723-0917
        KCEST / RACES / SAR Non-Emergency Office -  (616) 827-7601
        All Emergencies Please call KCSD Dispatch and ask for the on-call RACES Coordinator!
        --- "the right decision is not always the easy decision! ---
      • TM
        Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months, So I did miss the net. Tim N8NET ... Sorry mark I have not been on the
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 29, 2012
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          Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
          miss the net.
          Tim N8NET

          On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
           

          

          Hi Tim,
           
          From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
           
          Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
           
          Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
           
          :)
           
          73
           
          Mark K8MHZ
          -----Original Message-----
          From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
          Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
          To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

           

          People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
          If someone driving through an area where people are using
          146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
          people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
          guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
          monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
          capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
          the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
          repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
          repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
          but me during what we once called Drive Time.
           So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
          as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
          leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
          And I totally disagree with Joe
          as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
          only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
          by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
          either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
          comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
          Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
          people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
          I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
          comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

          On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
           

          Exactly as you say.

          -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

          On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
          > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
          > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
          > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
          > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
          > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
          > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
          > general monitoring.
          > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Richards <jruing@...>
          > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
          > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
          > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
          >
          > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
          > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
          > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
          > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
          > channel to the cause.
          >
          > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
          >
          > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
          > > We hope you will join us.
          > > 73
          > > Art Snapper NK8X
          > >
          > >________________________________________
          >
          >
          >



        • Richards
          I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post. Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction: It is called a calling frequency for a
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 29, 2012
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            I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

            Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
            It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
            it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
            the same reason.

            ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------



            On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

            > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
            > If someone driving through an area where people are using
            > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
            > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.
          • Mark
            That wasn t an anonymous post. He just didn t sign it. The post was from Tim N8NET. I guess I recognize the user names, being a moderator and all. I can
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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              That wasn't an anonymous post.  He just didn't sign it.
               
              The post was from Tim N8NET.  I guess I recognize the user names, being a moderator and all.
               
              I can vouch for Tim and friends letting people break in.  And I have never heard any of them break any laws.
               
              73
               
              Mark K8MHZ
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
              Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 2:58 AM
              To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

               

              I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

              Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
              It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
              it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
              the same reason.

              ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

              On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

              > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
              > If someone driving through an area where people are using
              > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
              > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.

            • Mark
              Hi Tim, I just saw you were an Extra. When did that happen????? Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General. Congrats. 73 Mark K8MHZ ...
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                Hi Tim,
                 
                I just saw you were an Extra.  When did that happen?????  Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General.
                 
                Congrats.
                 
                73
                 
                Mark K8MHZ
                 
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:25 PM
                To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                 

                Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
                miss the net.
                Tim N8NET

                On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
                 

                

                Hi Tim,
                 
                From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                 
                Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                 
                Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                 
                :)
                 
                73
                 
                Mark K8MHZ
                -----Original Message-----
                From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                 

                People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                If someone driving through an area where people are using
                146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                 So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                And I totally disagree with Joe
                as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                 

                Exactly as you say.

                -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                > general monitoring.
                > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                >
                > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                > channel to the cause.
                >
                > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                >
                > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                > > We hope you will join us.
                > > 73
                > > Art Snapper NK8X
                > >
                > >________________________________________
                >
                >
                >



              • Mark
                As a moderator of this group, I had to think a bit about the subject of 146.520. Since this discussion could get heated, one part of me really wants to avoid
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  
                  As a moderator of this group, I had to think a bit about the subject of 146.520.
                   
                  Since this discussion could get heated, one part of me really wants to avoid that, as discourse among members can often get out of hand.
                   
                  However, the cat has been let out of the bag.  So, please, as with any discussion here, keep it civil. 
                   
                  We have something like 150 members here.  There are going to be people that are going to disagree.  It is possible disagree without getting nasty about it.
                   
                  So please, people, no name calling, or insults.
                   
                  The 146.520 debate is not just a local one.  I run across it on QRZ from time to time and the 'complaints' are pretty much the same.
                   
                  As far as the FCC is concerned, there is no such thing as a calling frequency for ham radio on any band. 
                   
                  So, this is an unwritten rule.  Even so, what is the purpose of a calling frequency?  To make a contact.  If the people chatting on '52 readily give up the frequency, how do they impede the process of making a contact?  In actuality, they may even be able to assist people in their attempts to make contacts.  Especially from a mobile radio.
                   
                  Things were different when the concept of a calling frequency was considered.  Radios were far from frequency agile.  In the crystal days, you were limited to a few 'channels'.  So, hams decided that all should have one in common, and some 'rule's for using the special 'channel' were put forth and all was well.
                   
                  We no longer have such constraints and as such may want to reconsider how 'calling frequencies' are used and be prepared to accept something that differs from tradition.
                   
                  73
                   
                  Mark K8MHZ

                  [Mark] 
                   
                   -----Original Message-----
                  From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                  Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 2:58 AM
                  To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                   

                  I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

                  Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
                  It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
                  it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
                  the same reason.

                  ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

                  On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

                  > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                  > If someone driving through an area where people are using
                  > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                  > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.

                • TM
                  Well I made General at the Holland Club old location at the house and then I heard an old Friend was giving an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Well I made General at the Holland Club old location at the house and then I heard an old Friend was  giving
                    an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.   So last spring was the class in GR for EXTRA
                    and the previous Spring was the General which I helped a friend out and gave a ride too. 
                    My apologize to the other fella for not signing my post, sometimes we forget these things when normally
                    you just view others notices and ideas here...

                    (Thank you Holland Club and Tom KT8B)

                    Tim N8NET

                    On 12/30/2012 10:11 AM, Mark wrote:
                     

                    

                    Hi Tim,
                     
                    I just saw you were an Extra.  When did that happen?????  Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General.
                     
                    Congrats.
                     
                    73
                     
                    Mark K8MHZ
                     
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                    Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:25 PM
                    To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                     

                    Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
                    miss the net.
                    Tim N8NET

                    On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
                     

                    

                    Hi Tim,
                     
                    From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                     
                    Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                     
                    Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                     
                    :)
                     
                    73
                     
                    Mark K8MHZ
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                    Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                    To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                     
                    People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                    If someone driving through an area where people are using
                    146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                    people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                    guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                    monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                    capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                    the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                    repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                    repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                    but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                     So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                    as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                    leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                    And I totally disagree with Joe
                    as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                    only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                    by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                    either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                    comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                    Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                    people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                    I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                    comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                    On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                     

                    Exactly as you say.

                    -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                    On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                    > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                    > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                    > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                    > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                    > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                    > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                    > general monitoring.
                    > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                    > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                    > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                    > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                    >
                    > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                    > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                    > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                    > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                    > channel to the cause.
                    >
                    > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                    >
                    > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                    > > We hope you will join us.
                    > > 73
                    > > Art Snapper NK8X
                    > >
                    > >________________________________________
                    >
                    >
                    >




                • Tom KD8DEG
                  Thank You Mark!!!! I truly was hopping you would put it to rest. This rear s it s ugly head from time to time. As many have stated the repeaters are dead 85%
                  Message 9 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    
                    Thank You Mark!!!!
                     
                    I truly was hopping you would put it to rest. This rear's it's ugly head from time to time. As many have stated the repeaters are dead 85% of the time, and some even more. When I do listen on 52 it is about the same, and while traveling, good luck in finding anyone on 52. When someone does break-in on one of those long winded converastions on 52, they have always let them break in. Listen on 52 during a VHF contest weekend and see how busy it isn't.
                     
                    Attetudes always get out of hand when someone gets pissy about the use, this happens alot on the HF bands as well, and starts saying, this frequency is for such and such use "ONLY", and then it's; Here we go again. Be happy for any use, before big brother, FCC, starts taking frequency spectrum away for lack of use, or change us to secondary users, as they have done before.
                     
                    73's
                     
                    KD8DEG  Tom
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Mark
                    Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:56 AM
                    Subject: RE: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                     

                    

                    As a moderator of this group, I had to think a bit about the subject of 146.520.
                     
                    Since this discussion could get heated, one part of me really wants to avoid that, as discourse among members can often get out of hand.
                     
                    However, the cat has been let out of the bag.  So, please, as with any discussion here, keep it civil. 
                     
                    We have something like 150 members here.  There are going to be people that are going to disagree.  It is possible disagree without getting nasty about it.
                     
                    So please, people, no name calling, or insults.
                     
                    The 146.520 debate is not just a local one.  I run across it on QRZ from time to time and the 'complaints' are pretty much the same.
                     
                    As far as the FCC is concerned, there is no such thing as a calling frequency for ham radio on any band. 
                     
                    So, this is an unwritten rule.  Even so, what is the purpose of a calling frequency?  To make a contact.  If the people chatting on '52 readily give up the frequency, how do they impede the process of making a contact?  In actuality, they may even be able to assist people in their attempts to make contacts.  Especially from a mobile radio.
                     
                    Things were different when the concept of a calling frequency was considered.  Radios were far from frequency agile.  In the crystal days, you were limited to a few 'channels'.  So, hams decided that all should have one in common, and some 'rule's for using the special 'channel' were put forth and all was well.
                     
                    We no longer have such constraints and as such may want to reconsider how 'calling frequencies' are used and be prepared to accept something that differs from tradition.
                     
                    73
                     
                    Mark K8MHZ

                    [Mark] 
                     
                     -----Original Message-----
                    From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                    Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 2:58 AM
                    To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                     

                    I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

                    Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
                    It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
                    it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
                    the same reason.

                    ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

                    On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

                    > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                    > If someone driving through an area where people are using
                    > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                    > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.

                  • Mark
                    Did you just call Tom old? ... Again, congrats on the upgrade. 73 Mark K8MHZ ... From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 10 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      
                      Did you just call Tom old?
                       
                      :)
                       
                      Again, congrats on the upgrade.
                       
                      73
                       
                      Mark K8MHZ
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                      Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:02 PM
                      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                       

                      Well I made General at the Holland Club old location at the house and then I heard an old Friend was  giving
                      an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.   So last spring was the class in GR for EXTRA
                      and the previous Spring was the General which I helped a friend out and gave a ride too. 
                      My apologize to the other fella for not signing my post, sometimes we forget these things when normally
                      you just view others notices and ideas here...

                      (Thank you Holland Club and Tom KT8B)

                      Tim N8NET

                      On 12/30/2012 10:11 AM, Mark wrote:
                       

                      

                      Hi Tim,
                       
                      I just saw you were an Extra.  When did that happen?????  Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General.
                       
                      Congrats.
                       
                      73
                       
                      Mark K8MHZ
                       
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                      Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:25 PM
                      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                       

                      Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
                      miss the net.
                      Tim N8NET

                      On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
                       

                      

                      Hi Tim,
                       
                      From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                       
                      Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                       
                      Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                       
                      :)
                       
                      73
                       
                      Mark K8MHZ
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                      Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                       
                      People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                      If someone driving through an area where people are using
                      146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                      people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                      guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                      monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                      capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                      the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                      repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                      repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                      but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                       So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                      as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                      leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                      And I totally disagree with Joe
                      as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                      only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                      by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                      either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                      comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                      Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                      people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                      I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                      comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                      On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                       

                      Exactly as you say.

                      -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                      On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                      > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                      > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                      > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                      > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                      > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                      > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                      > general monitoring.
                      > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                      > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                      > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                      > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                      >
                      > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                      > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                      > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                      > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                      > channel to the cause.
                      >
                      > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                      >
                      > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                      > > We hope you will join us.
                      > > 73
                      > > Art Snapper NK8X
                      > >
                      > >________________________________________
                      >
                      >
                      >




                    • TM
                      Well I am old too..... Tim N8NET ... Well I am old too..... Tim N8NET On 12/30/2012 12:31 PM, Mark wrote:    Did you just call Tom old?   ...   Again,
                      Message 11 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Well I am old too.....
                        Tim N8NET

                        On 12/30/2012 12:31 PM, Mark wrote:
                         

                        

                        Did you just call Tom old?
                         
                        :)
                         
                        Again, congrats on the upgrade.
                         
                        73
                         
                        Mark K8MHZ
                         
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                        Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:02 PM
                        To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                         

                        Well I made General at the Holland Club old location at the house and then I heard an old Friend was  giving
                        an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.   So last spring was the class in GR for EXTRA
                        and the previous Spring was the General which I helped a friend out and gave a ride too. 
                        My apologize to the other fella for not signing my post, sometimes we forget these things when normally
                        you just view others notices and ideas here...

                        (Thank you Holland Club and Tom KT8B)

                        Tim N8NET

                        On 12/30/2012 10:11 AM, Mark wrote:
                         

                        

                        Hi Tim,
                         
                        I just saw you were an Extra.  When did that happen?????  Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General.
                         
                        Congrats.
                         
                        73
                         
                        Mark K8MHZ
                         
                         
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                        Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:25 PM
                        To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                         
                        Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
                        miss the net.
                        Tim N8NET

                        On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
                         

                        

                        Hi Tim,
                         
                        From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                         
                        Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                         
                        Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                         
                        :)
                         
                        73
                         
                        Mark K8MHZ
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                        Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                        To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                         
                        People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                        If someone driving through an area where people are using
                        146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                        people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                        guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                        monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                        capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                        the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                        repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                        repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                        but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                         So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                        as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                        leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                        And I totally disagree with Joe
                        as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                        only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                        by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                        either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                        comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                        Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                        people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                        I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                        comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                        On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                         

                        Exactly as you say.

                        -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                        On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                        > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                        > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                        > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                        > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                        > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                        > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                        > general monitoring.
                        > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                        > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                        > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                        > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                        >
                        > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                        > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                        > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                        > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                        > channel to the cause.
                        >
                        > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                        >
                        > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                        > > We hope you will join us.
                        > > 73
                        > > Art Snapper NK8X
                        > >
                        > >________________________________________
                        >
                        >
                        >





                      • a_snapper
                        Here is some background on the net. This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to
                        Message 12 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Here is some background on the net.

                          This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to communicate via normal means.

                          I.E. when you emerged from a shelter and realized communications infrastructure (including ham) was disabled, and government agencies were rendered ineffective.

                          Recent examples are Hurricane Katrina, and the Indonesian tsunami.

                          West Michigan is relatively disaster-benign, but you never know.

                          Some situations so dire, that amateur communications could have more value than merely a supplement to the ARES/RACES disaster response responsibilities. (i.e.damage assessment, ARC support)

                          At this point, the radio operator could become a unique, autonomous communicator. Establishing a communications circuit,(2 or more hams) would benefit both the individuals and the community.

                          Our plans for such a worse case scenario are in my opinion - weak. It seems to me that our network needs to be operational at the local level before we focus attention on restoring regional communications.

                          An exception to this might be when calling in mutual aid resources. Of course, then the question becomes, where to put them.

                          Since amateur radio is interoperable by nature, we are given an advantage over other communication services.

                          When communications infrastructure is down, and lacking other plans, it logically follows to use a simplex calling frequency. Thus the use of .52 simplex for this net.

                          An invitation was sent to over 500 amateur radio operators, and I was careful to extend it to all hams, not just ARES/RACES people.



                          Thanks and 73,
                          Art Snapper NK8X
                        • Richards
                          Yeah !! Congratulations on making EXTRA !!! ... _______________________________________
                          Message 13 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Yeah !! Congratulations on making EXTRA !!!

                            --------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

                            On 12/30/2012 12:01 PM, TM wrote:

                            > then I heard an old Friend was giving
                            > an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.

                            _______________________________________
                          • Richards
                            ... Since you ask... Because others want to monitor the calling frequency on their radios, and make contact when someone else calls in. But if two or three
                            Message 14 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On 12/30/2012 10:56 AM, Mark wrote:

                              > If the people chatting on '52 readily give up the
                              > frequency, how do they impede the process of making a contact? In
                              > actuality, they may even be able to assist people in their attempts to
                              > make contacts.?

                              --------------------------------------------------------------

                              Since you ask...

                              Because others want to monitor the calling
                              frequency on their radios, and make contact
                              when someone else calls in. But if two or three
                              fellers monopolize the frequency for a 3 hour
                              rag chew, other operators have to lock that
                              frequency out and stop scanning it, or else their
                              scanners would stick on that one frequency and
                              play the three hour rag chew - it won't scan if
                              there is a signal, and if they talk for 3 hours that
                              is all I would ever hear, and my rig won't scan any
                              other channel until they stop. Totally defeats
                              my ability to listen for OTHER operators, such as
                              those who might be cruising through town and
                              look for a brief conversation or for directions to
                              find gas, a restaurant, or the like. I have simply
                              had to lock out the calling frequency and no longer
                              monitor it - because they will tie up my rig for
                              hours every day with pretty much the same
                              old schtick - which they are entitled to talk about,
                              but I cannot make contact with anyone else
                              who might cruise through town until they get off.

                              I know many hams who have simply given up
                              monitoring the calling frequency, because it
                              does not work as it could.

                              This is a hot topic, so I don't wanna do any
                              more than answer your question as to how it
                              matters to other operators. Not illegal... just
                              defeats the calling frequency idea.

                              Sorry, Tom... I live by the highway and when I
                              got into ham radio, I was sorta looking forward to
                              talking to people on the radio, but have had to
                              give up on the calling freq concept. Since everybody
                              wants to be PC and not rock the boat, it just goes
                              on as you say.

                              ---------------------------- K8JHR --------------------
                            • Richards
                              OK... we all know Tim is a stand up guy and not the type to snipe or hide who he is. Thanks for the clarification. ... _____________________________________
                              Message 15 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                OK... we all know Tim is a stand up guy and not the
                                type to snipe or hide who he is. Thanks for the clarification.

                                -------------------------- JHR -----------------------

                                On 12/30/2012 9:53 AM, Mark wrote:
                                >
                                > That wasn't an anonymous post. He just didn't sign it.

                                _____________________________________
                              • Richards
                                This raises interesting and important questions, Art. I wonder how it would actually play out, if there really is such a wide reaching, large scale disaster,
                                Message 16 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  This raises interesting and important questions, Art.

                                  I wonder how it would actually play out, if there really
                                  is such a wide reaching, large scale disaster, and every
                                  ham in town wanted to get on the air for all the various
                                  reasons they would have to do so.

                                  Personally, I envision chaos would be a good result, but
                                  I fear it could be far worse without some coordination and
                                  a lot of patient courtesy among the entire flock.

                                  But that is the point - it would be helpful to find out
                                  before a disaster occurs what might go down, and see
                                  whether or not there is a workable plan for avoiding
                                  chaos and rendering it useful.

                                  I agree the plan to include all hams was a good idea.

                                  I suspect it might have been more useful, and more
                                  widely "attended" had it been explained more fully,
                                  and announced more in advance. Nevertheless, it
                                  raises important questions, and serves as a starting
                                  point for further work.

                                  Happy trails.

                                  -------------------- K8JHR ----------------------------



                                  On 12/30/2012 2:39 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Here is some background on the net.
                                  >
                                  > This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to communicate via normal means.
                                  >
                                  > I.E. when you emerged from a shelter and realized communications infrastructure (including ham) was disabled, and government agencies were rendered ineffective.
                                  >
                                  > Recent examples are Hurricane Katrina, and the Indonesian tsunami.
                                  >
                                  > West Michigan is relatively disaster-benign, but you never know.
                                  >
                                  > Some situations so dire, that amateur communications could have more value than merely a supplement to the ARES/RACES disaster response responsibilities. (i.e.damage assessment, ARC support)
                                  >
                                  > At this point, the radio operator could become a unique, autonomous communicator. Establishing a communications circuit,(2 or more hams) would benefit both the individuals and the community.
                                  >
                                  > Our plans for such a worse case scenario are in my opinion - weak. It seems to me that our network needs to be operational at the local level before we focus attention on restoring regional communications.
                                  >
                                  > An exception to this might be when calling in mutual aid resources. Of course, then the question becomes, where to put them.
                                  >
                                  > Since amateur radio is interoperable by nature, we are given an advantage over other communication services.
                                  >
                                  > When communications infrastructure is down, and lacking other plans, it logically follows to use a simplex calling frequency. Thus the use of .52 simplex for this net.
                                  >
                                  > An invitation was sent to over 500 amateur radio operators, and I was careful to extend it to all hams, not just ARES/RACES people.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thanks and 73,
                                  > Art Snapper NK8X
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • wd8usa@aol.com
                                  Very thoughtful insights Mr. Snapper- Well spoken! All look, Read and learn!! Good stuff! DE WD8USA ...-.- ... From: a_snapper To:
                                  Message 17 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Very thoughtful insights Mr. Snapper- Well spoken!  All look, Read and learn!! Good stuff! DE WD8USA   ...-.-


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: a_snapper <art@...>
                                    To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sun, Dec 30, 2012 2:39 pm
                                    Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                     


                                    Here is some background on the net.

                                    This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to communicate via normal means.

                                    I.E. when you emerged from a shelter and realized communications infrastructure (including ham) was disabled, and government agencies were rendered ineffective.

                                    Recent examples are Hurricane Katrina, and the Indonesian tsunami.

                                    West Michigan is relatively disaster-benign, but you never know.

                                    Some situations so dire, that amateur communications could have more value than merely a supplement to the ARES/RACES disaster response responsibilities. (i.e.damage assessment, ARC support)

                                    At this point, the radio operator could become a unique, autonomous communicator. Establishing a communications circuit,(2 or more hams) would benefit both the individuals and the community.

                                    Our plans for such a worse case scenario are in my opinion - weak. It seems to me that our network needs to be operational at the local level before we focus attention on restoring regional communications.

                                    An exception to this might be when calling in mutual aid resources. Of course, then the question becomes, where to put them.

                                    Since amateur radio is interoperable by nature, we are given an advantage over other communication services.

                                    When communications infrastructure is down, and lacking other plans, it logically follows to use a simplex calling frequency. Thus the use of .52 simplex for this net.

                                    An invitation was sent to over 500 amateur radio operators, and I was careful to extend it to all hams, not just ARES/RACES people.

                                    Thanks and 73,
                                    Art Snapper NK8X

                                  • wd8usa@aol.com
                                    If the calling Freq is tied up with local chit chat you decrease your chances of a contact when needed as those that tie up that call Freq will be the only
                                    Message 18 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      If the "calling Freq" is tied up with local chit chat you decrease your chances of a contact when needed as those that tie up that "call Freq" will be the only ones listening-
                                       A call freq is just that call, and move off!
                                      DE WD8USA   ...-.-


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Richards <jruing@...>
                                      To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Sun, Dec 30, 2012 3:01 am
                                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                       
                                      I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

                                      Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
                                      It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
                                      it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
                                      the same reason.

                                      ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

                                      On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

                                      > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                                      > If someone driving through an area where people are using
                                      > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                                      > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.

                                    • Mark
                                      Hi Jim, Thanks for the reply. I can see both sides of the issue, I think. So here are some questions: Totally defeats my ability to listen for OTHER
                                      Message 19 of 30 , Dec 31, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        
                                        Hi Jim,
                                         
                                        Thanks for the reply.  I can see both sides of the issue, I think.  So here are some questions:
                                         
                                        "Totally defeats
                                        my ability to listen for OTHER operators, such as
                                        those who might be cruising through town and
                                        look for a brief conversation or for directions to
                                        find gas, a restaurant, or the like."
                                         
                                        The conversational users of the '52 can't give directions and/or other local information?  I am pretty sure that someone cruising through town looking for a brief conversation would get their wish, as well.  So, it's your ability to listen, not your ability to make a call that is 'defeated', correct?
                                         
                                         
                                        "But if two or three
                                        fellers monopolize the frequency for a 3 hour
                                        rag chew, other operators have to lock that
                                        frequency out and stop scanning it, or else their
                                        scanners would stick on that one frequency and
                                        play the three hour rag chew - it won't scan if
                                        there is a signal, and if they talk for 3 hours that
                                        is all I would ever hear, and my rig won't scan any
                                        other channel until they stop."
                                         
                                        Does your rig not change channels because the '52 ops aren't allowing a second or two between exchanges, or is it because your scanning feature is set to delay?  Or just delays and has no 'instantaneous' feature?  Some radios also have features for a time limit, like 2 seconds for stopping on scan. 
                                         
                                        "which they are entitled to talk about,
                                        but I cannot make contact with anyone else
                                        who might cruise through town until they get off."
                                         
                                        So, why can't you break in and make a contact? 
                                         
                                        "I know many hams who have simply given up
                                        monitoring the calling frequency, because it
                                        does not work as it could."
                                         
                                        Truthfully, what do you think makes the most people not monitor '52, a few guys chatting for 3 out of 24 hours, or no traffic at all, for days, weeks and even months on end?
                                         
                                        "This is a hot topic, so I don't wanna do any
                                        more than answer your question as to how it
                                        matters to other operators. Not illegal... just
                                        defeats the calling frequency idea."
                                         
                                        It is also a topic in which rational discussion may lead to some long term improvements.  Did you know that when calling frequencies were first contrived, it was standard practice to stay there and have conversations?  This was prior to the VFO days.  It wasn't until maybe 20 years ago that someone, the ARRL perhaps, came up with the idea that once the contact was made to clear the frequency.  That practice was swiped from the marine radio service, Ch. 16 VHF.
                                         
                                        Learning a little about the history of calling frequencies shows that the way they have been used throughout history has changed.  Maybe it's time to once again reconsider the methodology behind the use of  '52.
                                         
                                        "Sorry, Tom... I live by the highway and when I
                                        got into ham radio, I was sorta looking forward to
                                        talking to people on the radio, but have had to
                                        give up on the calling freq concept. Since everybody
                                        wants to be PC and not rock the boat, it just goes
                                        on as you say."
                                         
                                        Why does the boat have to be rocked?  Is it all that tough to discuss uses and possible changes of a single frequency without getting emotional about it?  As for talking to people, aren't the number of people on '52 simplex a minutia compared to the number of folks on the repeaters, especially the linked system? 
                                         
                                        To be honest, and Tim N8NET can vouch for this, I was first totally against rag chewing on '52.   So I decided to check the 'culprits' out.
                                         
                                        1)  Would they let me break in with no problem?   --  Yep.
                                         
                                        2)  Would they stop chatting long enough for me to make a call?  -- Yep.
                                         
                                        3)  Would they let me join the QSO?  -- Yep.
                                         
                                        4)  Would any one of them QSY with me because I didn't want to tie up the '52 -- Yep.
                                         
                                        Hmmm.....they aren't breaking any rules, they all seemed to be accommodating and polite. So I reconsidered.  I also found out that this issue is going on all over the US, and not just on 2 meters.  People are actually rag chewing on the 6 m SSB calling frequency, too.
                                         
                                         I also found out that one of Rileys career highlights was erroneously citing some hams for rag chewing on the '52.  Riley was big time wrong and had to rescind the citations.
                                         
                                        I guess that's part of the calling frequency history, too.
                                         
                                        73
                                         
                                        Mark K8MHZ
                                         
                                        PS  I think I may change my QRZ signature to '146.52?  Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded'.
                                         
                                        :)


                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                                        Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 5:20 PM
                                        To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                         



                                        On 12/30/2012 10:56 AM, Mark wrote:

                                        > If the people chatting on '52 readily give up the
                                        > frequency, how do they impede the process of making a contact? In
                                        > actuality, they may even be able to assist people in their attempts to
                                        > make contacts.?

                                        ----------------------------------------------------------

                                        Since you ask...

                                        Because others want to monitor the calling
                                        frequency on their radios, and make contact
                                        when someone else calls in. But if two or three
                                        fellers monopolize the frequency for a 3 hour
                                        rag chew, other operators have to lock that
                                        frequency out and stop scanning it, or else their
                                        scanners would stick on that one frequency and
                                        play the three hour rag chew - it won't scan if
                                        there is a signal, and if they talk for 3 hours that
                                        is all I would ever hear, and my rig won't scan any
                                        other channel until they stop. Totally defeats
                                        my ability to listen for OTHER operators, such as
                                        those who might be cruising through town and
                                        look for a brief conversation or for directions to
                                        find gas, a restaurant, or the like. I have simply
                                        had to lock out the calling frequency and no longer
                                        monitor it - because they will tie up my rig for
                                        hours every day with pretty much the same
                                        old schtick - which they are entitled to talk about,
                                        but I cannot make contact with anyone else
                                        who might cruise through town until they get off.

                                        I know many hams who have simply given up
                                        monitoring the calling frequency, because it
                                        does not work as it could.

                                        This is a hot topic, so I don't wanna do any
                                        more than answer your question as to how it
                                        matters to other operators. Not illegal... just
                                        defeats the calling frequency idea.

                                        Sorry, Tom... I live by the highway and when I
                                        got into ham radio, I was sorta looking forward to
                                        talking to people on the radio, but have had to
                                        give up on the calling freq concept. Since everybody
                                        wants to be PC and not rock the boat, it just goes
                                        on as you say.

                                        ---------------------------- K8JHR --------------------

                                      • Richards
                                        ... Sure... but that cuts me and everybody else out. They continue to monopolize the channel. ... Both... but you are getting it. ... Good questions.
                                        Message 20 of 30 , Dec 31, 2012
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                                          > The conversational users of the '52 can't give directions and/or other
                                          > local information?


                                          Sure... but that cuts me and everybody
                                          else out. They continue to monopolize
                                          the channel.



                                          > it's your ability to listen, not your ability to make a call that is
                                          > 'defeated', correct?


                                          Both... but you are getting it.




                                          > Does your rig not change channels because the '52 ops aren't allowing a
                                          > second or two between exchanges, or is it because your scanning feature
                                          > is set to delay? Or just delays and has no 'instantaneous' feature?
                                          > Some radios also have features for a time limit, like 2 seconds for
                                          > stopping on scan.


                                          Good questions. Let's put it into perspective
                                          with an example - the guys on 53 pause a bit
                                          to catch their breath, as is usual in any conversation,
                                          so the rig releases the channel and scans. Then
                                          it scans for another busy channel.

                                          Finding none busy, it catches 52 when they start
                                          up again - and instead of my listening for a contact,
                                          I end up listening to them rag chew.

                                          Or, let's assume the rig finds another busy channel,
                                          say, the Lowell repeater, then it holds that until
                                          they take a break, and then the guys on 52 catch
                                          the attention of the scanner, and we are back to
                                          them until they catch their breath again.

                                          But... in any case, all the while 52 continues their
                                          local rag chew session, I cannot monitor 52 and
                                          make my own contacts. If a traveler does cut
                                          into their conversation, THEY get the contact
                                          and handle the questions... in any case, they
                                          cut me out.

                                          But wait... there's more:

                                          Meanwhile, nobody can call ME on 52 and ask
                                          ME to QSY to a simplex channel. I cannot call
                                          YOU to make contact, and QSY with you to another
                                          channel. I cannot call you - even if I interrupt
                                          them - because you and the rest of the ham
                                          community quit monitoring the channel long ago.

                                          I should not have to beg permission from the
                                          other guys to use 52 to make a new contact.
                                          The whole idea is that it is always open for that
                                          sort of thing. But you cannot call me on 52, either,
                                          because I blocked that frequency on the scanner
                                          so I don't have to listen to their rag chew session
                                          every afternoon.

                                          And this actually matters, because none of my
                                          ham friends monitor 52 any more - because they
                                          don't want to listen to those guys every day, hoping
                                          somebody else will cut in - but, again, if they are on
                                          they will deal with the new contact, I will have to
                                          barge in and steal the contact to get involved, and
                                          nobody is going to work that hard.

                                          Unfortunately, it seems this way in a lot of places
                                          across the country, so many traveling hams don't
                                          even try 52 any more. But, maybe they would if
                                          it worked the way it might.




                                          > So, why can't you break in and make a contact?


                                          Because I should not have to. It is supposed
                                          to be open so anyone can call and make
                                          contact and then leave it open to the
                                          rest of the community to do so.

                                          Besides, none of my friends monitor 52 any
                                          more, so they are not listening for me to
                                          call them there. They don't wanna listen to
                                          the rag chew guys all afternoon, either, so they
                                          simply don't monitor 52 any more... again,
                                          defeating the whole idea of an open calling
                                          frequency for everybody. That effectively
                                          converts it into their personal, private channel,
                                          and defeats the notion of an open, free for all
                                          calling frequency.



                                          > Truthfully, what do you think makes the most people not monitor '52, a
                                          > few guys chatting for 3 out of 24 hours, or no traffic at all, for days,
                                          > weeks and even months on end?

                                          Good question. I doubt we can say for sure
                                          either way, but I think it is most likely that
                                          there is no traffic on 52 because so many
                                          hams have killed it off in this manner. This
                                          has been discussed on many nationwide internet
                                          ham discussion groups, so it seems to be a problem
                                          in many places, and it is possible the majority of
                                          hams have has simply given up on 52 - so nobody
                                          uses it much in this way any more.

                                          That means a few has changed it for the many,
                                          and considering I am one of the many, I lament
                                          the loss of something good.





                                          > It is also a topic in which rational discussion may lead to some long
                                          > term improvements.


                                          Yes... so far it has been plenty civil here.




                                          It wasn't until maybe 20
                                          > years ago that someone, the ARRL perhaps, came up with the idea that
                                          > once the contact was made to clear the frequency. That practice was
                                          > swiped from the marine radio service, Ch. 16 VHF.
                                          > Learning a little about the history of calling frequencies shows that
                                          > the way they have been used throughout history has changed. Maybe it's
                                          > time to once again reconsider the methodology behind the use of '52.



                                          Perhaps you are right. Perhaps it is changing
                                          on its own, in an organic way, as opposed to
                                          any intentional plan promulgated from above.




                                          > Why does the boat have to be rocked? Is it all that tough to discuss
                                          > uses and possible changes of a single frequency without getting
                                          > emotional about it? As for talking to people, aren't the number of
                                          > people on '52 simplex a minutia compared to the number of folks on the
                                          > repeaters, especially the linked system?


                                          You may be right about the statistics.

                                          Unfortunately, no matter how civil and how
                                          rational the debate is HERE... and it has been,
                                          it is impossible to discuss the matter with the
                                          crowd on 52. They say it is "legal" and have
                                          no patience or interest in discussing the impact
                                          or significance of any general understandings,
                                          or gentlemens' agreements, and the conversation
                                          is over. I negotiated the resolution of hundreds
                                          of heated disputes, including a fair number of
                                          heated divorces, but diplomacy has not chance
                                          for success. I mentioned this to an ARRL Section
                                          Manager - and he told me to simply give up and
                                          let them go. It is this sort of "tolerance" that
                                          allows a minority to overtake the majority.




                                          > To be honest, and Tim N8NET can vouch for this, I was first totally
                                          > against rag chewing on '52. So I decided to check the 'culprits' out.

                                          > 1) Would they let me break in with no problem? -- Yep.
                                          > 2) Would they stop chatting long enough for me to make a call? -- Yep.
                                          > 3) Would they let me join the QSO? -- Yep.
                                          > 4) Would any one of them QSY with me because I didn't want to tie up
                                          > the '52 -- Yep.




                                          Yes... but they should do this as
                                          a matter of courtesy to others.


                                          > Hmmm.....they aren't breaking any rules, they all seemed to be
                                          > accommodating and polite. So I reconsidered. I also found out that this
                                          > issue is going on all over the US, and not just on 2 meters. People are
                                          > actually rag chewing on the 6 m SSB calling frequency, too.



                                          OK... then I suppose we will have to give up
                                          the whole notion of a calling frequency.

                                          While they might have yield easily... the
                                          whole point is that no one should have to
                                          ask for it.

                                          They don't violate any rules, per se... but they
                                          unilaterally void a useful common practice.


                                          We are now sliding down the old slippery slope.
                                          How far are you willing to go... should we also
                                          abandon the band plans ? After all, those are not
                                          mandated by the Rules, either. How many long
                                          established practices should yield to a few guys
                                          who don't wanna play ball? Should my friends
                                          and I set conduct our 6 hour nightly net on the
                                          MidCars frequency, or the one used by the ARRL
                                          for code practice bulletins? That would be legal,
                                          and not violate any rules. Should we move our
                                          SSB net into the CW portion of the band, because,
                                          after all, it gets kinda crowded in the phone
                                          portion of the band ? How many of the long
                                          established gentlemens' agreements are we
                                          willing to void in this way?




                                          > I also found out that one of Rileys career highlights was erroneously
                                          > citing some hams for rag chewing on the '52. Riley was big time wrong
                                          > and had to rescind the citations. I guess that's part of the calling frequency history, too.


                                          Yes. No doubt no one is operating illegally...
                                          just operating so as to defeat notion of a calling
                                          frequency. The fact they call it such gives it
                                          meaning. Otherwise it is just another simplex
                                          channel.

                                          Perhaps there are not enough hams willing
                                          to stand by the practice to support and
                                          maintain it. Like so many things in our
                                          socio-political environment, few are willing
                                          to stand up and speak out - they just go
                                          with the flow, and while that is their choice,
                                          it is not mine. Silly me... I speak my mind!
                                          ;-) The XYL thinks I will get shot for that
                                          someday ... ;-)


                                          GOOD QUESTIONS-- GOOD DISCUSSION HERE.

                                          I APPEARS I MAY BE OUT-VOTED ON THE ISSUE... ;-)


                                          HAPPY DAYS AND HAPPY HOLIDAY, MARK.

                                          ________________JHR___________________
                                        • Mark
                                          Happy New Year, Jim! Most advice about ham radio practice centers around the just spin the knob paradigm. Or, basically ignore it. The Internet allows us to
                                          Message 21 of 30 , Jan 1, 2013
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                                            Happy New Year, Jim!
                                             
                                            Most advice about ham radio practice centers around the 'just spin the knob' paradigm.  Or, basically ignore it.
                                             
                                            The Internet allows us to do both, spin the knob when we don't like what is going on, and also voice our concerns to other hams off the air.
                                             
                                            There is a problem with that.  People get brave behind the keyboard and many of them simply toss etiquette out the window.  We have to remember to remain as emotionally neutral as possible, but still keep the opinion intact. 
                                             
                                            Many times, it's not what people say, but how they say it. 
                                             
                                            ----Break----
                                             
                                            Here is some more info on the '52.  First, you have to remember that I started looking for info on the '52 freq. to support a stance just like the one you have now.  Well, as you see, I haven't had much luck.   I just looked at a 1995 ARRL repeater directory.  144.200 is listed as the national calling frequency.  146.52 is listed simply as the "national simplex frequency".  The word 'calling' is not present.
                                             
                                            I don't know if the new versions are different.  If they are, then the change occurred sometime after 1995.  I found an old (2006) discussion on QRZ about it and from the banter there, the ARRL had already added the 'calling' thing at that point.  It is currently listed on arrl.org as 'national simplex calling frequency'.
                                             
                                            Now, I hate politics and I am not into ARRL bashing or anything of the like, so I tend to look at things mathematically.  
                                             
                                            The ARRL consists of a very small minority of licensed operators and the upper echelon of that organization has already admitted they exist for self-preservation (and I understand this) and not necessarily to represent the entire membership, nor hams in general.  And realize, if they did not make self preservation a major concern, they would have been gone long ago.  It is a strategy that simply has to be. 
                                             
                                            There are a large number of licensed, active hams that don't really agree with the ARRL and prefer to follow the FCC's rules instead.  Who are we to say that they can't or that following the ARRL's rules is a requirement for 'good operating practice'?
                                             
                                            Considering that the FCC indeed does require good operating practices (97.101), their opinion on the use of 146.52 must reflect that.   So....here it is:
                                             
                                            "NEWINGTON, CT, Oct 23, 2002--FCC Special Counsel for Enforcement Riley Hollingsworth has told five amateurs in Ohio and Michigan to disregard his earlier admonition to avoid lengthy QSOs on 146.52 MHz. Acknowledging that some confusion (sic!) exists within the amateur community as to whether 146.52 is a national calling channel or just another simplex frequency, Hollingsworth decided to simply rescind the five advisory notices he'd sent October 15.

                                            "We made an error in issuing that Advisory Notice, and you may disregard it," Hollingsworth wrote today in letters sent to each of the affected amateurs. Commenting to ARRL, Hollingsworth was blunt yet good-natured. "I goofed," he said. "If I were worried about making a fool of myself from time to time, I never would have become a lawyer in the first place." "
                                             
                                            I think this is a good place to pause.  :)
                                             
                                            Oh, my New Year's resolution is to get some antennas, especially my 2m/440 one outside.  Then I could actually listen to 146.52 and see (hear) what I am missing.
                                             
                                            73
                                             
                                            Mark K8MHZ
                                             
                                             

                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                            Yes. No doubt no one is operating illegally...
                                            just operating so as to defeat notion of a calling
                                            frequency. The fact they call it such gives it
                                            meaning. Otherwise it is just another simplex
                                            channel.

                                            Perhaps there are not enough hams willing
                                            to stand by the practice to support and
                                            maintain it. Like so many things in our
                                            socio-political environment, few are willing
                                            to stand up and speak out - they just go
                                            with the flow, and while that is their choice,
                                            it is not mine. Silly me... I speak my mind!
                                            ;-) The XYL thinks I will get shot for that
                                            someday ... ;-)


                                            GOOD QUESTIONS-- GOOD DISCUSSION HERE.

                                            I APPEARS I MAY BE OUT-VOTED ON THE ISSUE... ;-)

                                            HAPPY DAYS AND HAPPY HOLIDAY, MARK.

                                            ________________JHR___________________

                                          • Richards
                                            Good Post, Mark -- a lot of buckshot in that one little shell! Happy days.
                                            Message 22 of 30 , Jan 1, 2013
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                                              Good Post, Mark -- a lot of buckshot in that one little shell!

                                              Happy days.

                                              ----------------------- JHR ------------------------------------
                                            • Mark
                                              Thanks Jim, Really, not much, if any of the info is mine, personally. I found it on the Net and just passed it on in somewhat of a condensed version. 73 Mark
                                              Message 23 of 30 , Jan 1, 2013
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                                                Thanks Jim,
                                                 
                                                Really, not much, if any of the info is mine, personally.  I found it on the 'Net and just passed it on in somewhat of a condensed version.
                                                 
                                                73
                                                 
                                                Mark K8MHZ
                                                 
                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 6:12 PM
                                                To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                                 

                                                Good Post, Mark -- a lot of buckshot in that one little shell!

                                                Happy days.

                                                ----------------------- JHR ------------------------------------

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