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Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

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  • Hal Thomas
    ARMAGEDDON NET DEFINITION: the site or time of a final and conclusive battle between the forces of good and evil - Webster s SITUATION: Both the Mayan
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 10, 2012
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      ARMAGEDDON NET
      DEFINITION: “the site or time of a final and conclusive battle between the forces
      of good and evil” – Webster’s


      SITUATION: Both the Mayan calendar and the “fiscal cliff” predict
      mayhem around the end of 2012 . This is as good a reason as any to
      test our communications skills.


      OBJECTIVE: Less than ten percent of Amateur Radio licensees are
      registered with an ARES or RACES program. To date, amateur radio
      communication exercises have been associated with ARES, RACES
      or other official groups. During a disaster, manpower requirements
      may well exceed the capacity of this group. Assistance from amateur
      radio operators who aren't registered with their local program may
      be required. At this point, trained and credentialed ARES or RACES
      personnel can become managers, overseeing certain communication
      tasks performed by other ham radio volunteers.
      This exercise will test the ability for everyone to communicate
      on a moment’s notice.


      MISSION: This exercise will require the individual amateur radio
      operator to make contact with any other amateur radio station.
      EXECUTION: All amateur radio stations should monitor the VHF
      calling frequency 146.520 FM, or an alternate HF frequency of
      28.375 USB. The exercise will have a duration of 30 minutes. When
      the frequency is clear, contact can be initiated with the preamble
      “CQ the Armageddon Net” followed by your call sign.

      Log your contacts.


      ADDITIONAL TASKS: Prior to the event, local amateur radio
      clubs will promote the event.

       

      More information to follow as the month progresses- Stay tuned.

      If you are on Facebook there is an event page  http://www.facebook.com/events/265857036869811/

       

       

    • a_snapper
      We hope you will join us. 73 Art Snapper NK8X
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 28, 2012
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        We hope you will join us.
        73
        Art Snapper NK8X

        --- In WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com, "Hal Thomas" <hal@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > ARMAGEDDON NET
        > DEFINITION: "the site or time of a final and conclusive battle between the
        > forces
        > of good and evil" - Webster's
        >
        >
        > SITUATION: Both the Mayan calendar and the "fiscal cliff" predict
        > mayhem around the end of 2012 . This is as good a reason as any to
        > test our communications skills.
        >
        >
        > OBJECTIVE: Less than ten percent of Amateur Radio licensees are
        > registered with an ARES or RACES program. To date, amateur radio
        > communication exercises have been associated with ARES, RACES
        > or other official groups. During a disaster, manpower requirements
        > may well exceed the capacity of this group. Assistance from amateur
        > radio operators who aren't registered with their local program may
        > be required. At this point, trained and credentialed ARES or RACES
        > personnel can become managers, overseeing certain communication
        > tasks performed by other ham radio volunteers.
        > This exercise will test the ability for everyone to communicate
        > on a moment's notice.
        >
        >
        > MISSION: This exercise will require the individual amateur radio
        > operator to make contact with any other amateur radio station.
        > EXECUTION: All amateur radio stations should monitor the VHF
        > calling frequency 146.520 FM, or an alternate HF frequency of
        > 28.375 USB. The exercise will have a duration of 30 minutes. When
        > the frequency is clear, contact can be initiated with the preamble
        > "CQ the Armageddon Net" followed by your call sign.
        >
        > Log your contacts.
        >
        >
        > ADDITIONAL TASKS: Prior to the event, local amateur radio
        > clubs will promote the event.
        >
        >
        >
        > More information to follow as the month progresses- Stay tuned.
        >
        > If you are on Facebook there is an event page
        > http://www.facebook.com/events/265857036869811/
        >
      • a_snapper
        There is also a Facebook page for feedback and last minute details.Armageddon Net ... between the
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 28, 2012
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          There is also a Facebook page for feedback and last minute details.
          Armageddon Net 


          --- In WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com, "a_snapper" wrote:
          >
          > We hope you will join us.
          > 73
          > Art Snapper NK8X
          >
          > --- In WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com, "Hal Thomas" hal@ wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ARMAGEDDON NET
          > > DEFINITION: "the site or time of a final and conclusive battle between the
          > > forces
          > > of good and evil" - Webster's
          > >
          > >
          > > SITUATION: Both the Mayan calendar and the "fiscal cliff" predict
          > > mayhem around the end of 2012 . This is as good a reason as any to
          > > test our communications skills.
          > >
          > >
          > > OBJECTIVE: Less than ten percent of Amateur Radio licensees are
          > > registered with an ARES or RACES program. To date, amateur radio
          > > communication exercises have been associated with ARES, RACES
          > > or other official groups. During a disaster, manpower requirements
          > > may well exceed the capacity of this group. Assistance from amateur
          > > radio operators who aren't registered with their local program may
          > > be required. At this point, trained and credentialed ARES or RACES
          > > personnel can become managers, overseeing certain communication
          > > tasks performed by other ham radio volunteers.
          > > This exercise will test the ability for everyone to communicate
          > > on a moment's notice.
          > >
          > >
          > > MISSION: This exercise will require the individual amateur radio
          > > operator to make contact with any other amateur radio station.
          > > EXECUTION: All amateur radio stations should monitor the VHF
          > > calling frequency 146.520 FM, or an alternate HF frequency of
          > > 28.375 USB. The exercise will have a duration of 30 minutes. When
          > > the frequency is clear, contact can be initiated with the preamble
          > > "CQ the Armageddon Net" followed by your call sign.
          > >
          > > Log your contacts.
          > >
          > >
          > > ADDITIONAL TASKS: Prior to the event, local amateur radio
          > > clubs will promote the event.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > More information to follow as the month progresses- Stay tuned.
          > >
          > > If you are on Facebook there is an event page
          > > http://www.facebook.com/events/265857036869811/
          > >
          >
        • Richards
          That won t work well around here... three or four guys seem to think the calling frequency is their private channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 28, 2012
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            That won't work well around here... three or four guys
            seem to think the calling frequency is their private
            channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
            edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
            channel to the cause.

            ------------------------- JR ---------------------

            On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
            > We hope you will join us.
            > 73
            > Art Snapper NK8X
            >
            >________________________________________
          • wd8usa@aol.com
            We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up forcing many to lock
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 28, 2012
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              We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few base stations use 146.52 for   general chit chat and tie the freq up  forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list! 
               
              It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
              For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for general monitoring.
               
              OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA   ...-.-


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Richards <jruing@...>
              To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
              Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

               
              That won't work well around here... three or four guys
              seem to think the calling frequency is their private
              channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
              edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
              channel to the cause.

              ------------------------- JR ---------------------

              On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
              > We hope you will join us.
              > 73
              > Art Snapper NK8X
              >
              >________________________________________
            • Richards
              Exactly as you say.
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 28, 2012
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                Exactly as you say.

                -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                > general monitoring.
                > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                >
                > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                > channel to the cause.
                >
                > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                >
                > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                > > We hope you will join us.
                > > 73
                > > Art Snapper NK8X
                > >
                > >________________________________________
                >
                >
                >
              • TM
                People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!! If someone driving through an area where people are using 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 29, 2012
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                  People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                  If someone driving through an area where people are using
                  146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                  people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                  guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                  monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                  capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                  the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                  repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                  repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                  but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                   So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                  as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                  leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                  And I totally disagree with Joe
                  as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                  only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                  by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                  either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                  comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                  Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                  people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                  I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                  comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                  On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                   

                  Exactly as you say.

                  -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                  On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                  > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                  > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                  > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                  > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                  > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                  > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                  > general monitoring.
                  > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                  > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                  > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                  > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                  >
                  > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                  > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                  > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                  > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                  > channel to the cause.
                  >
                  > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                  >
                  > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                  > > We hope you will join us.
                  > > 73
                  > > Art Snapper NK8X
                  > >
                  > >________________________________________
                  >
                  >
                  >


                • Mark
                  Hi Tim, From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes. Correct? Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything? I kind
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 29, 2012
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                    Hi Tim,
                     
                    From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                     
                    Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                     
                    Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                     
                    :)
                     
                    73
                     
                    Mark K8MHZ
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                    Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                    To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                     

                    People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                    If someone driving through an area where people are using
                    146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                    people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                    guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                    monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                    capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                    the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                    repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                    repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                    but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                     So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                    as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                    leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                    And I totally disagree with Joe
                    as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                    only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                    by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                    either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                    comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                    Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                    people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                    I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                    comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                    On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                     

                    Exactly as you say.

                    -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                    On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                    > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                    > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                    > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                    > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                    > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                    > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                    > general monitoring.
                    > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                    > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                    > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                    > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                    >
                    > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                    > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                    > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                    > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                    > channel to the cause.
                    >
                    > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                    >
                    > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                    > > We hope you will join us.
                    > > 73
                    > > Art Snapper NK8X
                    > >
                    > >________________________________________
                    >
                    >
                    >


                  • Jeff Nawrot
                    We had 27 contacts in Kent County. I believe Kalamazoo was pretty close to the same. ... -- Thank You -- ... This message has been prepared on resources owned
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 29, 2012
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                      We had 27 contacts in Kent County.  I believe Kalamazoo was pretty close to the same. 



                      On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Mark <k8mhz28@...> wrote:
                       

                      Hi Tim,
                       
                      From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                       
                      Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                       
                      Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                       
                      :)
                       
                      73
                       
                      Mark K8MHZ
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                      Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                       

                      People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                      If someone driving through an area where people are using
                      146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                      people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                      guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                      monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                      capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                      the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                      repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                      repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                      but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                       So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                      as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                      leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                      And I totally disagree with Joe
                      as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                      only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                      by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                      either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                      comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                      Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                      people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                      I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                      comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                      On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                       

                      Exactly as you say.

                      -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                      On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                      > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                      > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                      > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                      > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                      > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                      > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                      > general monitoring.
                      > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                      > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                      > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                      > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                      >
                      > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                      > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                      > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                      > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                      > channel to the cause.
                      >
                      > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                      >
                      > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                      > > We hope you will join us.
                      > > 73
                      > > Art Snapper NK8X
                      > >
                      > >________________________________________
                      >
                      >
                      >





                      --
                      Thank You




                      -- 




                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      This message has been prepared on resources owned by Kent County Emergency Services
                      Team Inc. It is subject to the Acceptable Use Policy and Procedures of KCEST.
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Jeffrey Nawrot (N8JSN)
                      Director 
                      Kent County Emergency Service Team
                      Search and Rescue, Communications, Events
                      www.kentcountysar.org |www.Kcest.org | www.kcraces.net
                      NASAR SARTECH 2®
                      Emergency Response Services/SAR Services Coordinator - Fortune Bay Expedition Team
                      Personal Cell Non-Emergency -    (616) 723-0917
                      KCEST / RACES / SAR Non-Emergency Office -  (616) 827-7601
                      All Emergencies Please call KCSD Dispatch and ask for the on-call RACES Coordinator!
                      --- "the right decision is not always the easy decision! ---
                    • TM
                      Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months, So I did miss the net. Tim N8NET ... Sorry mark I have not been on the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 29, 2012
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                        Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
                        miss the net.
                        Tim N8NET

                        On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
                         

                        

                        Hi Tim,
                         
                        From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                         
                        Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                         
                        Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                         
                        :)
                         
                        73
                         
                        Mark K8MHZ
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                        Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                        To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                         

                        People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                        If someone driving through an area where people are using
                        146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                        people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                        guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                        monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                        capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                        the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                        repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                        repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                        but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                         So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                        as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                        leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                        And I totally disagree with Joe
                        as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                        only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                        by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                        either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                        comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                        Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                        people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                        I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                        comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                        On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                         

                        Exactly as you say.

                        -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                        On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                        > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                        > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                        > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                        > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                        > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                        > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                        > general monitoring.
                        > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                        > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                        > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                        > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                        >
                        > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                        > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                        > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                        > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                        > channel to the cause.
                        >
                        > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                        >
                        > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                        > > We hope you will join us.
                        > > 73
                        > > Art Snapper NK8X
                        > >
                        > >________________________________________
                        >
                        >
                        >



                      • Richards
                        I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post. Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction: It is called a calling frequency for a
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 29, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

                          Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
                          It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
                          it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
                          the same reason.

                          ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------



                          On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

                          > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                          > If someone driving through an area where people are using
                          > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                          > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.
                        • Mark
                          That wasn t an anonymous post. He just didn t sign it. The post was from Tim N8NET. I guess I recognize the user names, being a moderator and all. I can
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            
                            That wasn't an anonymous post.  He just didn't sign it.
                             
                            The post was from Tim N8NET.  I guess I recognize the user names, being a moderator and all.
                             
                            I can vouch for Tim and friends letting people break in.  And I have never heard any of them break any laws.
                             
                            73
                             
                            Mark K8MHZ
                             
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                            Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 2:58 AM
                            To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                             

                            I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

                            Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
                            It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
                            it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
                            the same reason.

                            ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

                            On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

                            > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                            > If someone driving through an area where people are using
                            > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                            > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.

                          • Mark
                            Hi Tim, I just saw you were an Extra. When did that happen????? Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General. Congrats. 73 Mark K8MHZ ...
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              
                              Hi Tim,
                               
                              I just saw you were an Extra.  When did that happen?????  Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General.
                               
                              Congrats.
                               
                              73
                               
                              Mark K8MHZ
                               
                               
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                              Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:25 PM
                              To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                               

                              Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
                              miss the net.
                              Tim N8NET

                              On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
                               

                              

                              Hi Tim,
                               
                              From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                               
                              Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                               
                              Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                               
                              :)
                               
                              73
                               
                              Mark K8MHZ
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                              Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                              To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                               

                              People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                              If someone driving through an area where people are using
                              146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                              people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                              guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                              monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                              capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                              the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                              repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                              repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                              but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                               So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                              as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                              leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                              And I totally disagree with Joe
                              as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                              only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                              by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                              either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                              comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                              Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                              people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                              I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                              comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                              On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                               

                              Exactly as you say.

                              -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                              On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                              > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                              > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                              > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                              > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                              > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                              > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                              > general monitoring.
                              > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                              > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                              > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                              > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                              >
                              > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                              > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                              > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                              > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                              > channel to the cause.
                              >
                              > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                              >
                              > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                              > > We hope you will join us.
                              > > 73
                              > > Art Snapper NK8X
                              > >
                              > >________________________________________
                              >
                              >
                              >



                            • Mark
                              As a moderator of this group, I had to think a bit about the subject of 146.520. Since this discussion could get heated, one part of me really wants to avoid
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                
                                As a moderator of this group, I had to think a bit about the subject of 146.520.
                                 
                                Since this discussion could get heated, one part of me really wants to avoid that, as discourse among members can often get out of hand.
                                 
                                However, the cat has been let out of the bag.  So, please, as with any discussion here, keep it civil. 
                                 
                                We have something like 150 members here.  There are going to be people that are going to disagree.  It is possible disagree without getting nasty about it.
                                 
                                So please, people, no name calling, or insults.
                                 
                                The 146.520 debate is not just a local one.  I run across it on QRZ from time to time and the 'complaints' are pretty much the same.
                                 
                                As far as the FCC is concerned, there is no such thing as a calling frequency for ham radio on any band. 
                                 
                                So, this is an unwritten rule.  Even so, what is the purpose of a calling frequency?  To make a contact.  If the people chatting on '52 readily give up the frequency, how do they impede the process of making a contact?  In actuality, they may even be able to assist people in their attempts to make contacts.  Especially from a mobile radio.
                                 
                                Things were different when the concept of a calling frequency was considered.  Radios were far from frequency agile.  In the crystal days, you were limited to a few 'channels'.  So, hams decided that all should have one in common, and some 'rule's for using the special 'channel' were put forth and all was well.
                                 
                                We no longer have such constraints and as such may want to reconsider how 'calling frequencies' are used and be prepared to accept something that differs from tradition.
                                 
                                73
                                 
                                Mark K8MHZ

                                [Mark] 
                                 
                                 -----Original Message-----
                                From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                                Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 2:58 AM
                                To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                 

                                I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

                                Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
                                It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
                                it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
                                the same reason.

                                ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

                                On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

                                > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                                > If someone driving through an area where people are using
                                > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                                > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.

                              • TM
                                Well I made General at the Holland Club old location at the house and then I heard an old Friend was giving an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Well I made General at the Holland Club old location at the house and then I heard an old Friend was  giving
                                  an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.   So last spring was the class in GR for EXTRA
                                  and the previous Spring was the General which I helped a friend out and gave a ride too. 
                                  My apologize to the other fella for not signing my post, sometimes we forget these things when normally
                                  you just view others notices and ideas here...

                                  (Thank you Holland Club and Tom KT8B)

                                  Tim N8NET

                                  On 12/30/2012 10:11 AM, Mark wrote:
                                   

                                  

                                  Hi Tim,
                                   
                                  I just saw you were an Extra.  When did that happen?????  Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General.
                                   
                                  Congrats.
                                   
                                  73
                                   
                                  Mark K8MHZ
                                   
                                   
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                                  Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:25 PM
                                  To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                   

                                  Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
                                  miss the net.
                                  Tim N8NET

                                  On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
                                   

                                  

                                  Hi Tim,
                                   
                                  From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                                   
                                  Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                                   
                                  Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                                   
                                  :)
                                   
                                  73
                                   
                                  Mark K8MHZ
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                                  Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                                  To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                   
                                  People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                                  If someone driving through an area where people are using
                                  146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                                  people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                                  guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                                  monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                                  capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                                  the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                                  repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                                  repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                                  but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                                   So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                                  as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                                  leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                                  And I totally disagree with Joe
                                  as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                                  only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                                  by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                                  either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                                  comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                                  Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                                  people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                                  I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                                  comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                                  On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                                   

                                  Exactly as you say.

                                  -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                                  On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                                  > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                                  > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                                  > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                                  > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                                  > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                                  > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                                  > general monitoring.
                                  > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                                  > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                                  > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                                  > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                                  >
                                  > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                                  > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                                  > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                                  > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                                  > channel to the cause.
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                                  >
                                  > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                                  > > We hope you will join us.
                                  > > 73
                                  > > Art Snapper NK8X
                                  > >
                                  > >________________________________________
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >




                              • Tom KD8DEG
                                Thank You Mark!!!! I truly was hopping you would put it to rest. This rear s it s ugly head from time to time. As many have stated the repeaters are dead 85%
                                Message 16 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  
                                  Thank You Mark!!!!
                                   
                                  I truly was hopping you would put it to rest. This rear's it's ugly head from time to time. As many have stated the repeaters are dead 85% of the time, and some even more. When I do listen on 52 it is about the same, and while traveling, good luck in finding anyone on 52. When someone does break-in on one of those long winded converastions on 52, they have always let them break in. Listen on 52 during a VHF contest weekend and see how busy it isn't.
                                   
                                  Attetudes always get out of hand when someone gets pissy about the use, this happens alot on the HF bands as well, and starts saying, this frequency is for such and such use "ONLY", and then it's; Here we go again. Be happy for any use, before big brother, FCC, starts taking frequency spectrum away for lack of use, or change us to secondary users, as they have done before.
                                   
                                  73's
                                   
                                  KD8DEG  Tom
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Mark
                                  Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:56 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                   

                                  

                                  As a moderator of this group, I had to think a bit about the subject of 146.520.
                                   
                                  Since this discussion could get heated, one part of me really wants to avoid that, as discourse among members can often get out of hand.
                                   
                                  However, the cat has been let out of the bag.  So, please, as with any discussion here, keep it civil. 
                                   
                                  We have something like 150 members here.  There are going to be people that are going to disagree.  It is possible disagree without getting nasty about it.
                                   
                                  So please, people, no name calling, or insults.
                                   
                                  The 146.520 debate is not just a local one.  I run across it on QRZ from time to time and the 'complaints' are pretty much the same.
                                   
                                  As far as the FCC is concerned, there is no such thing as a calling frequency for ham radio on any band. 
                                   
                                  So, this is an unwritten rule.  Even so, what is the purpose of a calling frequency?  To make a contact.  If the people chatting on '52 readily give up the frequency, how do they impede the process of making a contact?  In actuality, they may even be able to assist people in their attempts to make contacts.  Especially from a mobile radio.
                                   
                                  Things were different when the concept of a calling frequency was considered.  Radios were far from frequency agile.  In the crystal days, you were limited to a few 'channels'.  So, hams decided that all should have one in common, and some 'rule's for using the special 'channel' were put forth and all was well.
                                   
                                  We no longer have such constraints and as such may want to reconsider how 'calling frequencies' are used and be prepared to accept something that differs from tradition.
                                   
                                  73
                                   
                                  Mark K8MHZ

                                  [Mark] 
                                   
                                   -----Original Message-----
                                  From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                                  Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 2:58 AM
                                  To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                   

                                  I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

                                  Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
                                  It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
                                  it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
                                  the same reason.

                                  ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

                                  On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

                                  > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                                  > If someone driving through an area where people are using
                                  > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                                  > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.

                                • Mark
                                  Did you just call Tom old? ... Again, congrats on the upgrade. 73 Mark K8MHZ ... From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 17 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    
                                    Did you just call Tom old?
                                     
                                    :)
                                     
                                    Again, congrats on the upgrade.
                                     
                                    73
                                     
                                    Mark K8MHZ
                                     
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                                    Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:02 PM
                                    To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                     

                                    Well I made General at the Holland Club old location at the house and then I heard an old Friend was  giving
                                    an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.   So last spring was the class in GR for EXTRA
                                    and the previous Spring was the General which I helped a friend out and gave a ride too. 
                                    My apologize to the other fella for not signing my post, sometimes we forget these things when normally
                                    you just view others notices and ideas here...

                                    (Thank you Holland Club and Tom KT8B)

                                    Tim N8NET

                                    On 12/30/2012 10:11 AM, Mark wrote:
                                     

                                    

                                    Hi Tim,
                                     
                                    I just saw you were an Extra.  When did that happen?????  Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General.
                                     
                                    Congrats.
                                     
                                    73
                                     
                                    Mark K8MHZ
                                     
                                     
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                                    Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:25 PM
                                    To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                     

                                    Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
                                    miss the net.
                                    Tim N8NET

                                    On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
                                     

                                    

                                    Hi Tim,
                                     
                                    From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                                     
                                    Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                                     
                                    Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                                     
                                    :)
                                     
                                    73
                                     
                                    Mark K8MHZ
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                                    Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                                    To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                     
                                    People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                                    If someone driving through an area where people are using
                                    146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                                    people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                                    guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                                    monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                                    capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                                    the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                                    repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                                    repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                                    but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                                     So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                                    as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                                    leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                                    And I totally disagree with Joe
                                    as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                                    only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                                    by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                                    either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                                    comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                                    Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                                    people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                                    I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                                    comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                                    On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                                     

                                    Exactly as you say.

                                    -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                                    On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                                    > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                                    > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                                    > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                                    > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                                    > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                                    > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                                    > general monitoring.
                                    > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                                    > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                                    > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                                    > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                                    >
                                    > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                                    > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                                    > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                                    > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                                    > channel to the cause.
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                                    >
                                    > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                                    > > We hope you will join us.
                                    > > 73
                                    > > Art Snapper NK8X
                                    > >
                                    > >________________________________________
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >




                                  • TM
                                    Well I am old too..... Tim N8NET ... Well I am old too..... Tim N8NET On 12/30/2012 12:31 PM, Mark wrote:    Did you just call Tom old?   ...   Again,
                                    Message 18 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Well I am old too.....
                                      Tim N8NET

                                      On 12/30/2012 12:31 PM, Mark wrote:
                                       

                                      

                                      Did you just call Tom old?
                                       
                                      :)
                                       
                                      Again, congrats on the upgrade.
                                       
                                      73
                                       
                                      Mark K8MHZ
                                       
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                                      Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:02 PM
                                      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                       

                                      Well I made General at the Holland Club old location at the house and then I heard an old Friend was  giving
                                      an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.   So last spring was the class in GR for EXTRA
                                      and the previous Spring was the General which I helped a friend out and gave a ride too. 
                                      My apologize to the other fella for not signing my post, sometimes we forget these things when normally
                                      you just view others notices and ideas here...

                                      (Thank you Holland Club and Tom KT8B)

                                      Tim N8NET

                                      On 12/30/2012 10:11 AM, Mark wrote:
                                       

                                      

                                      Hi Tim,
                                       
                                      I just saw you were an Extra.  When did that happen?????  Last time I talked to you I was bugging you to get your General.
                                       
                                      Congrats.
                                       
                                      73
                                       
                                      Mark K8MHZ
                                       
                                       
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                                      Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:25 PM
                                      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                       
                                      Sorry mark I have not been on the frequency but only 3 times in the last six months,  So I did
                                      miss the net.
                                      Tim N8NET

                                      On 12/29/2012 4:53 PM, Mark wrote:
                                       

                                      

                                      Hi Tim,
                                       
                                      From what I read, the exercise was from 10:00 am and was to last 30 minutes.  Correct?
                                       
                                      Just curious, did you listen and did you hear anything?  I kind of forgot about it and didn't even listen..... 
                                       
                                      Oh well, it's not like it was the end of the world or anything.
                                       
                                      :)
                                       
                                      73
                                       
                                      Mark K8MHZ
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TM
                                      Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:19 PM
                                      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                       
                                      People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                                      If someone driving through an area where people are using
                                      146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                                      people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.  Are you going to
                                      guarantee that you can put volunteers in place 24/7 to
                                      monitor like it was a REACT frequency?  I wonder of your
                                      capabilities as more people use cell phones and less are using
                                      the ham bands in VHF and UHF.   I had a friend call me on my
                                      repeater and said he tried calling for someone on all the
                                      repeaters and simplex frequencies in GR and found no one
                                      but me during what we once called Drive Time.
                                       So lets drop this line hash that keeps coming up
                                      as the people Joe mentions, in GR the folks would be glad to
                                      leave the frequency for a directed net or when the bands open up.
                                      And I totally disagree with Joe
                                      as it being bad Amateur Practice and the Calling frequency is
                                      only a recommendation by a Texas club originally and adopted
                                      by the ARRL.  I know a lot of people who do not belong to
                                      either of these organizations.  Well don't flame me for my
                                      comments as I am just pointing out my facts as I see it.
                                      Also last point I have driven all across the US and have heard
                                      people talking on 520 Just like GR and Flint do as example.
                                      I think this is just a personal idea that one wants and why we
                                      comment every once here to stir the pot, so to say....

                                      On 12/28/2012 11:47 PM, Richards wrote:
                                       

                                      Exactly as you say.

                                      -------------------- JR ---------------------------------

                                      On 12/28/2012 11:28 PM, wd8usa@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > We have has a problem here in the Grand Rapids area for years- A few
                                      > base stations use 146.52 for general chit chat and tie the freq up
                                      > forcing many to lock 652 out of our scan list!
                                      > It is not illegal of course in any sense of the law but not good Amateur
                                      > Radio practice but this is just my opinion only!
                                      > For all the wide open spaces for simplex on 2 is available, They sit
                                      > right there and don't move off to another freq and leave 652 clear for
                                      > general monitoring.
                                      > OH well, So be it- It is what it is- DE WD8USA ...-.-
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Richards <jruing@...>
                                      > To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm
                                      > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec.
                                      > 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.
                                      >
                                      > That won't work well around here... three or four guys
                                      > seem to think the calling frequency is their private
                                      > channel for hours on end. Maybe YOU can present an
                                      > edifying course that can motivate them to yield the
                                      > channel to the cause.
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------- JR ---------------------
                                      >
                                      > On 12/28/2012 5:22 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                                      > > We hope you will join us.
                                      > > 73
                                      > > Art Snapper NK8X
                                      > >
                                      > >________________________________________
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >





                                    • a_snapper
                                      Here is some background on the net. This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to
                                      Message 19 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                                        Here is some background on the net.

                                        This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to communicate via normal means.

                                        I.E. when you emerged from a shelter and realized communications infrastructure (including ham) was disabled, and government agencies were rendered ineffective.

                                        Recent examples are Hurricane Katrina, and the Indonesian tsunami.

                                        West Michigan is relatively disaster-benign, but you never know.

                                        Some situations so dire, that amateur communications could have more value than merely a supplement to the ARES/RACES disaster response responsibilities. (i.e.damage assessment, ARC support)

                                        At this point, the radio operator could become a unique, autonomous communicator. Establishing a communications circuit,(2 or more hams) would benefit both the individuals and the community.

                                        Our plans for such a worse case scenario are in my opinion - weak. It seems to me that our network needs to be operational at the local level before we focus attention on restoring regional communications.

                                        An exception to this might be when calling in mutual aid resources. Of course, then the question becomes, where to put them.

                                        Since amateur radio is interoperable by nature, we are given an advantage over other communication services.

                                        When communications infrastructure is down, and lacking other plans, it logically follows to use a simplex calling frequency. Thus the use of .52 simplex for this net.

                                        An invitation was sent to over 500 amateur radio operators, and I was careful to extend it to all hams, not just ARES/RACES people.



                                        Thanks and 73,
                                        Art Snapper NK8X
                                      • Richards
                                        Yeah !! Congratulations on making EXTRA !!! ... _______________________________________
                                        Message 20 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                                          Yeah !! Congratulations on making EXTRA !!!

                                          --------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

                                          On 12/30/2012 12:01 PM, TM wrote:

                                          > then I heard an old Friend was giving
                                          > an Extra Class at the Red Cross here in GR and figure , why not.

                                          _______________________________________
                                        • Richards
                                          ... Since you ask... Because others want to monitor the calling frequency on their radios, and make contact when someone else calls in. But if two or three
                                          Message 21 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                                            On 12/30/2012 10:56 AM, Mark wrote:

                                            > If the people chatting on '52 readily give up the
                                            > frequency, how do they impede the process of making a contact? In
                                            > actuality, they may even be able to assist people in their attempts to
                                            > make contacts.?

                                            --------------------------------------------------------------

                                            Since you ask...

                                            Because others want to monitor the calling
                                            frequency on their radios, and make contact
                                            when someone else calls in. But if two or three
                                            fellers monopolize the frequency for a 3 hour
                                            rag chew, other operators have to lock that
                                            frequency out and stop scanning it, or else their
                                            scanners would stick on that one frequency and
                                            play the three hour rag chew - it won't scan if
                                            there is a signal, and if they talk for 3 hours that
                                            is all I would ever hear, and my rig won't scan any
                                            other channel until they stop. Totally defeats
                                            my ability to listen for OTHER operators, such as
                                            those who might be cruising through town and
                                            look for a brief conversation or for directions to
                                            find gas, a restaurant, or the like. I have simply
                                            had to lock out the calling frequency and no longer
                                            monitor it - because they will tie up my rig for
                                            hours every day with pretty much the same
                                            old schtick - which they are entitled to talk about,
                                            but I cannot make contact with anyone else
                                            who might cruise through town until they get off.

                                            I know many hams who have simply given up
                                            monitoring the calling frequency, because it
                                            does not work as it could.

                                            This is a hot topic, so I don't wanna do any
                                            more than answer your question as to how it
                                            matters to other operators. Not illegal... just
                                            defeats the calling frequency idea.

                                            Sorry, Tom... I live by the highway and when I
                                            got into ham radio, I was sorta looking forward to
                                            talking to people on the radio, but have had to
                                            give up on the calling freq concept. Since everybody
                                            wants to be PC and not rock the boat, it just goes
                                            on as you say.

                                            ---------------------------- K8JHR --------------------
                                          • Richards
                                            OK... we all know Tim is a stand up guy and not the type to snipe or hide who he is. Thanks for the clarification. ... _____________________________________
                                            Message 22 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                                              OK... we all know Tim is a stand up guy and not the
                                              type to snipe or hide who he is. Thanks for the clarification.

                                              -------------------------- JHR -----------------------

                                              On 12/30/2012 9:53 AM, Mark wrote:
                                              >
                                              > That wasn't an anonymous post. He just didn't sign it.

                                              _____________________________________
                                            • Richards
                                              This raises interesting and important questions, Art. I wonder how it would actually play out, if there really is such a wide reaching, large scale disaster,
                                              Message 23 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                                                This raises interesting and important questions, Art.

                                                I wonder how it would actually play out, if there really
                                                is such a wide reaching, large scale disaster, and every
                                                ham in town wanted to get on the air for all the various
                                                reasons they would have to do so.

                                                Personally, I envision chaos would be a good result, but
                                                I fear it could be far worse without some coordination and
                                                a lot of patient courtesy among the entire flock.

                                                But that is the point - it would be helpful to find out
                                                before a disaster occurs what might go down, and see
                                                whether or not there is a workable plan for avoiding
                                                chaos and rendering it useful.

                                                I agree the plan to include all hams was a good idea.

                                                I suspect it might have been more useful, and more
                                                widely "attended" had it been explained more fully,
                                                and announced more in advance. Nevertheless, it
                                                raises important questions, and serves as a starting
                                                point for further work.

                                                Happy trails.

                                                -------------------- K8JHR ----------------------------



                                                On 12/30/2012 2:39 PM, a_snapper wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Here is some background on the net.
                                                >
                                                > This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to communicate via normal means.
                                                >
                                                > I.E. when you emerged from a shelter and realized communications infrastructure (including ham) was disabled, and government agencies were rendered ineffective.
                                                >
                                                > Recent examples are Hurricane Katrina, and the Indonesian tsunami.
                                                >
                                                > West Michigan is relatively disaster-benign, but you never know.
                                                >
                                                > Some situations so dire, that amateur communications could have more value than merely a supplement to the ARES/RACES disaster response responsibilities. (i.e.damage assessment, ARC support)
                                                >
                                                > At this point, the radio operator could become a unique, autonomous communicator. Establishing a communications circuit,(2 or more hams) would benefit both the individuals and the community.
                                                >
                                                > Our plans for such a worse case scenario are in my opinion - weak. It seems to me that our network needs to be operational at the local level before we focus attention on restoring regional communications.
                                                >
                                                > An exception to this might be when calling in mutual aid resources. Of course, then the question becomes, where to put them.
                                                >
                                                > Since amateur radio is interoperable by nature, we are given an advantage over other communication services.
                                                >
                                                > When communications infrastructure is down, and lacking other plans, it logically follows to use a simplex calling frequency. Thus the use of .52 simplex for this net.
                                                >
                                                > An invitation was sent to over 500 amateur radio operators, and I was careful to extend it to all hams, not just ARES/RACES people.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Thanks and 73,
                                                > Art Snapper NK8X
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • wd8usa@aol.com
                                                Very thoughtful insights Mr. Snapper- Well spoken! All look, Read and learn!! Good stuff! DE WD8USA ...-.- ... From: a_snapper To:
                                                Message 24 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                                                  Very thoughtful insights Mr. Snapper- Well spoken!  All look, Read and learn!! Good stuff! DE WD8USA   ...-.-


                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: a_snapper <art@...>
                                                  To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Sun, Dec 30, 2012 2:39 pm
                                                  Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                                   


                                                  Here is some background on the net.

                                                  This event was constructed to generate thought about the day that you became aware there was a disaster, and were unable to communicate via normal means.

                                                  I.E. when you emerged from a shelter and realized communications infrastructure (including ham) was disabled, and government agencies were rendered ineffective.

                                                  Recent examples are Hurricane Katrina, and the Indonesian tsunami.

                                                  West Michigan is relatively disaster-benign, but you never know.

                                                  Some situations so dire, that amateur communications could have more value than merely a supplement to the ARES/RACES disaster response responsibilities. (i.e.damage assessment, ARC support)

                                                  At this point, the radio operator could become a unique, autonomous communicator. Establishing a communications circuit,(2 or more hams) would benefit both the individuals and the community.

                                                  Our plans for such a worse case scenario are in my opinion - weak. It seems to me that our network needs to be operational at the local level before we focus attention on restoring regional communications.

                                                  An exception to this might be when calling in mutual aid resources. Of course, then the question becomes, where to put them.

                                                  Since amateur radio is interoperable by nature, we are given an advantage over other communication services.

                                                  When communications infrastructure is down, and lacking other plans, it logically follows to use a simplex calling frequency. Thus the use of .52 simplex for this net.

                                                  An invitation was sent to over 500 amateur radio operators, and I was careful to extend it to all hams, not just ARES/RACES people.

                                                  Thanks and 73,
                                                  Art Snapper NK8X

                                                • wd8usa@aol.com
                                                  If the calling Freq is tied up with local chit chat you decrease your chances of a contact when needed as those that tie up that call Freq will be the only
                                                  Message 25 of 30 , Dec 30, 2012
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                                                    If the "calling Freq" is tied up with local chit chat you decrease your chances of a contact when needed as those that tie up that "call Freq" will be the only ones listening-
                                                     A call freq is just that call, and move off!
                                                    DE WD8USA   ...-.-


                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: Richards <jruing@...>
                                                    To: WestMichiganHams <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Sun, Dec 30, 2012 3:01 am
                                                    Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                                     
                                                    I rarely accord high credibility to any anonymous post.

                                                    Your point fails to address the most obvious contradiction:
                                                    It is called a "calling frequency" for a reason...
                                                    it is not called a "ragchew net frequency" for
                                                    the same reason.

                                                    ------------------- K8JHR -------------------------

                                                    On 12/29/2012 2:18 PM, TM wrote:

                                                    > People who think this is a problem you are wrong!!!
                                                    > If someone driving through an area where people are using
                                                    > 146.520 and needed instructions or help, and you want these
                                                    > people to vacate the frequency, hmmmm.

                                                  • Mark
                                                    Hi Jim, Thanks for the reply. I can see both sides of the issue, I think. So here are some questions: Totally defeats my ability to listen for OTHER
                                                    Message 26 of 30 , Dec 31, 2012
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                                                      Hi Jim,
                                                       
                                                      Thanks for the reply.  I can see both sides of the issue, I think.  So here are some questions:
                                                       
                                                      "Totally defeats
                                                      my ability to listen for OTHER operators, such as
                                                      those who might be cruising through town and
                                                      look for a brief conversation or for directions to
                                                      find gas, a restaurant, or the like."
                                                       
                                                      The conversational users of the '52 can't give directions and/or other local information?  I am pretty sure that someone cruising through town looking for a brief conversation would get their wish, as well.  So, it's your ability to listen, not your ability to make a call that is 'defeated', correct?
                                                       
                                                       
                                                      "But if two or three
                                                      fellers monopolize the frequency for a 3 hour
                                                      rag chew, other operators have to lock that
                                                      frequency out and stop scanning it, or else their
                                                      scanners would stick on that one frequency and
                                                      play the three hour rag chew - it won't scan if
                                                      there is a signal, and if they talk for 3 hours that
                                                      is all I would ever hear, and my rig won't scan any
                                                      other channel until they stop."
                                                       
                                                      Does your rig not change channels because the '52 ops aren't allowing a second or two between exchanges, or is it because your scanning feature is set to delay?  Or just delays and has no 'instantaneous' feature?  Some radios also have features for a time limit, like 2 seconds for stopping on scan. 
                                                       
                                                      "which they are entitled to talk about,
                                                      but I cannot make contact with anyone else
                                                      who might cruise through town until they get off."
                                                       
                                                      So, why can't you break in and make a contact? 
                                                       
                                                      "I know many hams who have simply given up
                                                      monitoring the calling frequency, because it
                                                      does not work as it could."
                                                       
                                                      Truthfully, what do you think makes the most people not monitor '52, a few guys chatting for 3 out of 24 hours, or no traffic at all, for days, weeks and even months on end?
                                                       
                                                      "This is a hot topic, so I don't wanna do any
                                                      more than answer your question as to how it
                                                      matters to other operators. Not illegal... just
                                                      defeats the calling frequency idea."
                                                       
                                                      It is also a topic in which rational discussion may lead to some long term improvements.  Did you know that when calling frequencies were first contrived, it was standard practice to stay there and have conversations?  This was prior to the VFO days.  It wasn't until maybe 20 years ago that someone, the ARRL perhaps, came up with the idea that once the contact was made to clear the frequency.  That practice was swiped from the marine radio service, Ch. 16 VHF.
                                                       
                                                      Learning a little about the history of calling frequencies shows that the way they have been used throughout history has changed.  Maybe it's time to once again reconsider the methodology behind the use of  '52.
                                                       
                                                      "Sorry, Tom... I live by the highway and when I
                                                      got into ham radio, I was sorta looking forward to
                                                      talking to people on the radio, but have had to
                                                      give up on the calling freq concept. Since everybody
                                                      wants to be PC and not rock the boat, it just goes
                                                      on as you say."
                                                       
                                                      Why does the boat have to be rocked?  Is it all that tough to discuss uses and possible changes of a single frequency without getting emotional about it?  As for talking to people, aren't the number of people on '52 simplex a minutia compared to the number of folks on the repeaters, especially the linked system? 
                                                       
                                                      To be honest, and Tim N8NET can vouch for this, I was first totally against rag chewing on '52.   So I decided to check the 'culprits' out.
                                                       
                                                      1)  Would they let me break in with no problem?   --  Yep.
                                                       
                                                      2)  Would they stop chatting long enough for me to make a call?  -- Yep.
                                                       
                                                      3)  Would they let me join the QSO?  -- Yep.
                                                       
                                                      4)  Would any one of them QSY with me because I didn't want to tie up the '52 -- Yep.
                                                       
                                                      Hmmm.....they aren't breaking any rules, they all seemed to be accommodating and polite. So I reconsidered.  I also found out that this issue is going on all over the US, and not just on 2 meters.  People are actually rag chewing on the 6 m SSB calling frequency, too.
                                                       
                                                       I also found out that one of Rileys career highlights was erroneously citing some hams for rag chewing on the '52.  Riley was big time wrong and had to rescind the citations.
                                                       
                                                      I guess that's part of the calling frequency history, too.
                                                       
                                                      73
                                                       
                                                      Mark K8MHZ
                                                       
                                                      PS  I think I may change my QRZ signature to '146.52?  Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded'.
                                                       
                                                      :)


                                                       
                                                       
                                                       
                                                       
                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                                                      Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 5:20 PM
                                                      To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                                       



                                                      On 12/30/2012 10:56 AM, Mark wrote:

                                                      > If the people chatting on '52 readily give up the
                                                      > frequency, how do they impede the process of making a contact? In
                                                      > actuality, they may even be able to assist people in their attempts to
                                                      > make contacts.?

                                                      ----------------------------------------------------------

                                                      Since you ask...

                                                      Because others want to monitor the calling
                                                      frequency on their radios, and make contact
                                                      when someone else calls in. But if two or three
                                                      fellers monopolize the frequency for a 3 hour
                                                      rag chew, other operators have to lock that
                                                      frequency out and stop scanning it, or else their
                                                      scanners would stick on that one frequency and
                                                      play the three hour rag chew - it won't scan if
                                                      there is a signal, and if they talk for 3 hours that
                                                      is all I would ever hear, and my rig won't scan any
                                                      other channel until they stop. Totally defeats
                                                      my ability to listen for OTHER operators, such as
                                                      those who might be cruising through town and
                                                      look for a brief conversation or for directions to
                                                      find gas, a restaurant, or the like. I have simply
                                                      had to lock out the calling frequency and no longer
                                                      monitor it - because they will tie up my rig for
                                                      hours every day with pretty much the same
                                                      old schtick - which they are entitled to talk about,
                                                      but I cannot make contact with anyone else
                                                      who might cruise through town until they get off.

                                                      I know many hams who have simply given up
                                                      monitoring the calling frequency, because it
                                                      does not work as it could.

                                                      This is a hot topic, so I don't wanna do any
                                                      more than answer your question as to how it
                                                      matters to other operators. Not illegal... just
                                                      defeats the calling frequency idea.

                                                      Sorry, Tom... I live by the highway and when I
                                                      got into ham radio, I was sorta looking forward to
                                                      talking to people on the radio, but have had to
                                                      give up on the calling freq concept. Since everybody
                                                      wants to be PC and not rock the boat, it just goes
                                                      on as you say.

                                                      ---------------------------- K8JHR --------------------

                                                    • Richards
                                                      ... Sure... but that cuts me and everybody else out. They continue to monopolize the channel. ... Both... but you are getting it. ... Good questions.
                                                      Message 27 of 30 , Dec 31, 2012
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                                                        > The conversational users of the '52 can't give directions and/or other
                                                        > local information?


                                                        Sure... but that cuts me and everybody
                                                        else out. They continue to monopolize
                                                        the channel.



                                                        > it's your ability to listen, not your ability to make a call that is
                                                        > 'defeated', correct?


                                                        Both... but you are getting it.




                                                        > Does your rig not change channels because the '52 ops aren't allowing a
                                                        > second or two between exchanges, or is it because your scanning feature
                                                        > is set to delay? Or just delays and has no 'instantaneous' feature?
                                                        > Some radios also have features for a time limit, like 2 seconds for
                                                        > stopping on scan.


                                                        Good questions. Let's put it into perspective
                                                        with an example - the guys on 53 pause a bit
                                                        to catch their breath, as is usual in any conversation,
                                                        so the rig releases the channel and scans. Then
                                                        it scans for another busy channel.

                                                        Finding none busy, it catches 52 when they start
                                                        up again - and instead of my listening for a contact,
                                                        I end up listening to them rag chew.

                                                        Or, let's assume the rig finds another busy channel,
                                                        say, the Lowell repeater, then it holds that until
                                                        they take a break, and then the guys on 52 catch
                                                        the attention of the scanner, and we are back to
                                                        them until they catch their breath again.

                                                        But... in any case, all the while 52 continues their
                                                        local rag chew session, I cannot monitor 52 and
                                                        make my own contacts. If a traveler does cut
                                                        into their conversation, THEY get the contact
                                                        and handle the questions... in any case, they
                                                        cut me out.

                                                        But wait... there's more:

                                                        Meanwhile, nobody can call ME on 52 and ask
                                                        ME to QSY to a simplex channel. I cannot call
                                                        YOU to make contact, and QSY with you to another
                                                        channel. I cannot call you - even if I interrupt
                                                        them - because you and the rest of the ham
                                                        community quit monitoring the channel long ago.

                                                        I should not have to beg permission from the
                                                        other guys to use 52 to make a new contact.
                                                        The whole idea is that it is always open for that
                                                        sort of thing. But you cannot call me on 52, either,
                                                        because I blocked that frequency on the scanner
                                                        so I don't have to listen to their rag chew session
                                                        every afternoon.

                                                        And this actually matters, because none of my
                                                        ham friends monitor 52 any more - because they
                                                        don't want to listen to those guys every day, hoping
                                                        somebody else will cut in - but, again, if they are on
                                                        they will deal with the new contact, I will have to
                                                        barge in and steal the contact to get involved, and
                                                        nobody is going to work that hard.

                                                        Unfortunately, it seems this way in a lot of places
                                                        across the country, so many traveling hams don't
                                                        even try 52 any more. But, maybe they would if
                                                        it worked the way it might.




                                                        > So, why can't you break in and make a contact?


                                                        Because I should not have to. It is supposed
                                                        to be open so anyone can call and make
                                                        contact and then leave it open to the
                                                        rest of the community to do so.

                                                        Besides, none of my friends monitor 52 any
                                                        more, so they are not listening for me to
                                                        call them there. They don't wanna listen to
                                                        the rag chew guys all afternoon, either, so they
                                                        simply don't monitor 52 any more... again,
                                                        defeating the whole idea of an open calling
                                                        frequency for everybody. That effectively
                                                        converts it into their personal, private channel,
                                                        and defeats the notion of an open, free for all
                                                        calling frequency.



                                                        > Truthfully, what do you think makes the most people not monitor '52, a
                                                        > few guys chatting for 3 out of 24 hours, or no traffic at all, for days,
                                                        > weeks and even months on end?

                                                        Good question. I doubt we can say for sure
                                                        either way, but I think it is most likely that
                                                        there is no traffic on 52 because so many
                                                        hams have killed it off in this manner. This
                                                        has been discussed on many nationwide internet
                                                        ham discussion groups, so it seems to be a problem
                                                        in many places, and it is possible the majority of
                                                        hams have has simply given up on 52 - so nobody
                                                        uses it much in this way any more.

                                                        That means a few has changed it for the many,
                                                        and considering I am one of the many, I lament
                                                        the loss of something good.





                                                        > It is also a topic in which rational discussion may lead to some long
                                                        > term improvements.


                                                        Yes... so far it has been plenty civil here.




                                                        It wasn't until maybe 20
                                                        > years ago that someone, the ARRL perhaps, came up with the idea that
                                                        > once the contact was made to clear the frequency. That practice was
                                                        > swiped from the marine radio service, Ch. 16 VHF.
                                                        > Learning a little about the history of calling frequencies shows that
                                                        > the way they have been used throughout history has changed. Maybe it's
                                                        > time to once again reconsider the methodology behind the use of '52.



                                                        Perhaps you are right. Perhaps it is changing
                                                        on its own, in an organic way, as opposed to
                                                        any intentional plan promulgated from above.




                                                        > Why does the boat have to be rocked? Is it all that tough to discuss
                                                        > uses and possible changes of a single frequency without getting
                                                        > emotional about it? As for talking to people, aren't the number of
                                                        > people on '52 simplex a minutia compared to the number of folks on the
                                                        > repeaters, especially the linked system?


                                                        You may be right about the statistics.

                                                        Unfortunately, no matter how civil and how
                                                        rational the debate is HERE... and it has been,
                                                        it is impossible to discuss the matter with the
                                                        crowd on 52. They say it is "legal" and have
                                                        no patience or interest in discussing the impact
                                                        or significance of any general understandings,
                                                        or gentlemens' agreements, and the conversation
                                                        is over. I negotiated the resolution of hundreds
                                                        of heated disputes, including a fair number of
                                                        heated divorces, but diplomacy has not chance
                                                        for success. I mentioned this to an ARRL Section
                                                        Manager - and he told me to simply give up and
                                                        let them go. It is this sort of "tolerance" that
                                                        allows a minority to overtake the majority.




                                                        > To be honest, and Tim N8NET can vouch for this, I was first totally
                                                        > against rag chewing on '52. So I decided to check the 'culprits' out.

                                                        > 1) Would they let me break in with no problem? -- Yep.
                                                        > 2) Would they stop chatting long enough for me to make a call? -- Yep.
                                                        > 3) Would they let me join the QSO? -- Yep.
                                                        > 4) Would any one of them QSY with me because I didn't want to tie up
                                                        > the '52 -- Yep.




                                                        Yes... but they should do this as
                                                        a matter of courtesy to others.


                                                        > Hmmm.....they aren't breaking any rules, they all seemed to be
                                                        > accommodating and polite. So I reconsidered. I also found out that this
                                                        > issue is going on all over the US, and not just on 2 meters. People are
                                                        > actually rag chewing on the 6 m SSB calling frequency, too.



                                                        OK... then I suppose we will have to give up
                                                        the whole notion of a calling frequency.

                                                        While they might have yield easily... the
                                                        whole point is that no one should have to
                                                        ask for it.

                                                        They don't violate any rules, per se... but they
                                                        unilaterally void a useful common practice.


                                                        We are now sliding down the old slippery slope.
                                                        How far are you willing to go... should we also
                                                        abandon the band plans ? After all, those are not
                                                        mandated by the Rules, either. How many long
                                                        established practices should yield to a few guys
                                                        who don't wanna play ball? Should my friends
                                                        and I set conduct our 6 hour nightly net on the
                                                        MidCars frequency, or the one used by the ARRL
                                                        for code practice bulletins? That would be legal,
                                                        and not violate any rules. Should we move our
                                                        SSB net into the CW portion of the band, because,
                                                        after all, it gets kinda crowded in the phone
                                                        portion of the band ? How many of the long
                                                        established gentlemens' agreements are we
                                                        willing to void in this way?




                                                        > I also found out that one of Rileys career highlights was erroneously
                                                        > citing some hams for rag chewing on the '52. Riley was big time wrong
                                                        > and had to rescind the citations. I guess that's part of the calling frequency history, too.


                                                        Yes. No doubt no one is operating illegally...
                                                        just operating so as to defeat notion of a calling
                                                        frequency. The fact they call it such gives it
                                                        meaning. Otherwise it is just another simplex
                                                        channel.

                                                        Perhaps there are not enough hams willing
                                                        to stand by the practice to support and
                                                        maintain it. Like so many things in our
                                                        socio-political environment, few are willing
                                                        to stand up and speak out - they just go
                                                        with the flow, and while that is their choice,
                                                        it is not mine. Silly me... I speak my mind!
                                                        ;-) The XYL thinks I will get shot for that
                                                        someday ... ;-)


                                                        GOOD QUESTIONS-- GOOD DISCUSSION HERE.

                                                        I APPEARS I MAY BE OUT-VOTED ON THE ISSUE... ;-)


                                                        HAPPY DAYS AND HAPPY HOLIDAY, MARK.

                                                        ________________JHR___________________
                                                      • Mark
                                                        Happy New Year, Jim! Most advice about ham radio practice centers around the just spin the knob paradigm. Or, basically ignore it. The Internet allows us to
                                                        Message 28 of 30 , Jan 1, 2013
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                                                          Happy New Year, Jim!
                                                           
                                                          Most advice about ham radio practice centers around the 'just spin the knob' paradigm.  Or, basically ignore it.
                                                           
                                                          The Internet allows us to do both, spin the knob when we don't like what is going on, and also voice our concerns to other hams off the air.
                                                           
                                                          There is a problem with that.  People get brave behind the keyboard and many of them simply toss etiquette out the window.  We have to remember to remain as emotionally neutral as possible, but still keep the opinion intact. 
                                                           
                                                          Many times, it's not what people say, but how they say it. 
                                                           
                                                          ----Break----
                                                           
                                                          Here is some more info on the '52.  First, you have to remember that I started looking for info on the '52 freq. to support a stance just like the one you have now.  Well, as you see, I haven't had much luck.   I just looked at a 1995 ARRL repeater directory.  144.200 is listed as the national calling frequency.  146.52 is listed simply as the "national simplex frequency".  The word 'calling' is not present.
                                                           
                                                          I don't know if the new versions are different.  If they are, then the change occurred sometime after 1995.  I found an old (2006) discussion on QRZ about it and from the banter there, the ARRL had already added the 'calling' thing at that point.  It is currently listed on arrl.org as 'national simplex calling frequency'.
                                                           
                                                          Now, I hate politics and I am not into ARRL bashing or anything of the like, so I tend to look at things mathematically.  
                                                           
                                                          The ARRL consists of a very small minority of licensed operators and the upper echelon of that organization has already admitted they exist for self-preservation (and I understand this) and not necessarily to represent the entire membership, nor hams in general.  And realize, if they did not make self preservation a major concern, they would have been gone long ago.  It is a strategy that simply has to be. 
                                                           
                                                          There are a large number of licensed, active hams that don't really agree with the ARRL and prefer to follow the FCC's rules instead.  Who are we to say that they can't or that following the ARRL's rules is a requirement for 'good operating practice'?
                                                           
                                                          Considering that the FCC indeed does require good operating practices (97.101), their opinion on the use of 146.52 must reflect that.   So....here it is:
                                                           
                                                          "NEWINGTON, CT, Oct 23, 2002--FCC Special Counsel for Enforcement Riley Hollingsworth has told five amateurs in Ohio and Michigan to disregard his earlier admonition to avoid lengthy QSOs on 146.52 MHz. Acknowledging that some confusion (sic!) exists within the amateur community as to whether 146.52 is a national calling channel or just another simplex frequency, Hollingsworth decided to simply rescind the five advisory notices he'd sent October 15.

                                                          "We made an error in issuing that Advisory Notice, and you may disregard it," Hollingsworth wrote today in letters sent to each of the affected amateurs. Commenting to ARRL, Hollingsworth was blunt yet good-natured. "I goofed," he said. "If I were worried about making a fool of myself from time to time, I never would have become a lawyer in the first place." "
                                                           
                                                          I think this is a good place to pause.  :)
                                                           
                                                          Oh, my New Year's resolution is to get some antennas, especially my 2m/440 one outside.  Then I could actually listen to 146.52 and see (hear) what I am missing.
                                                           
                                                          73
                                                           
                                                          Mark K8MHZ
                                                           
                                                           

                                                           
                                                           
                                                           
                                                           
                                                           
                                                           
                                                           
                                                           
                                                           
                                                          Yes. No doubt no one is operating illegally...
                                                          just operating so as to defeat notion of a calling
                                                          frequency. The fact they call it such gives it
                                                          meaning. Otherwise it is just another simplex
                                                          channel.

                                                          Perhaps there are not enough hams willing
                                                          to stand by the practice to support and
                                                          maintain it. Like so many things in our
                                                          socio-political environment, few are willing
                                                          to stand up and speak out - they just go
                                                          with the flow, and while that is their choice,
                                                          it is not mine. Silly me... I speak my mind!
                                                          ;-) The XYL thinks I will get shot for that
                                                          someday ... ;-)


                                                          GOOD QUESTIONS-- GOOD DISCUSSION HERE.

                                                          I APPEARS I MAY BE OUT-VOTED ON THE ISSUE... ;-)

                                                          HAPPY DAYS AND HAPPY HOLIDAY, MARK.

                                                          ________________JHR___________________

                                                        • Richards
                                                          Good Post, Mark -- a lot of buckshot in that one little shell! Happy days.
                                                          Message 29 of 30 , Jan 1, 2013
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                                                            Good Post, Mark -- a lot of buckshot in that one little shell!

                                                            Happy days.

                                                            ----------------------- JHR ------------------------------------
                                                          • Mark
                                                            Thanks Jim, Really, not much, if any of the info is mine, personally. I found it on the Net and just passed it on in somewhat of a condensed version. 73 Mark
                                                            Message 30 of 30 , Jan 1, 2013
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                                                              Thanks Jim,
                                                               
                                                              Really, not much, if any of the info is mine, personally.  I found it on the 'Net and just passed it on in somewhat of a condensed version.
                                                               
                                                              73
                                                               
                                                              Mark K8MHZ
                                                               
                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                              From: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richards
                                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 6:12 PM
                                                              To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Reminder: Armageddon Net Exercise Dec. 29th (Saturday) 10:00 am.

                                                               

                                                              Good Post, Mark -- a lot of buckshot in that one little shell!

                                                              Happy days.

                                                              ----------------------- JHR ------------------------------------

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