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Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?

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  • T Behler
    Mark: See some of my earlier e-mails for the pleasant surprise I got as I used the antenna for the PA QSO Party this week-end. I know the antenna isn t quite
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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      Mark:

      See some of my earlier e-mails for the pleasant surprise I got as I used the
      antenna for the PA QSO Party this week-end.

      I know the antenna isn't quite optimal, but it sure did well, given the
      conditions that existed, especially yesterday.

      I would hate to have you come all the way over here from Muskegon just to do
      some work with the analyzer, so, unless you find yourself in Big Rapids for
      some reason, I probably wouldn't worry about it. However, I truly
      appreciate the offer.

      Sure wish they made an antenna analyzer that talked! (HI! HI!)

      73 from Tom Behler: KB8TYJ

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <k8mhz@...>
      To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 3:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


      > Hello Tom,
      >
      > Well, I am certainly no expert on the off center fed antennas but I just
      > happened to run across the site I posted and thought I would share it with
      > you.
      >
      > Nonetheless, we often put too much faith in SWR readings. Many times they
      > have NOTHING to do with antenna efficiency. All SWR readings are really
      > good for is to make sure that today's solid state radios won't be harmed
      > by
      > reflected energy. The topic of SWR, feedline loss and antenna efficiency
      > is
      > way to complex to master via e-mail.
      >
      > That being said, Greg's post is one to consider as well.
      >
      > Personally, I prefer to feed a multi-band antenna with balanced line so
      > that
      > no matter what the SWR readings are at efficiency there will be negligible
      > loss therein. If you want to make an attempt to understand all this I
      > strongly suggest reading 'Reflections' by Walt Maxwell W2DU.
      >
      > If you are only interested in getting a wire in the air to connect with
      > the
      > world my feelings are that a few of us should get together with an
      > analyzer
      > and come out to help you meet your goal.
      >
      > As Greg mentioned, 30 is an odd duck. If you really want to be hot on 30
      > it
      > may be best to have a dedicated antenna for that band.
      >
      > You may also want to investigate building a fan dipole. So many ways to
      > skin the same duck makes this craft most enjoyable, in my humble opinion.
      >
      > Cheers and best of 73
      >
      > Mark K8MHZ
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Tom Behler" <tbehler@...>
      > To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:48
      > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
      >
      >
      >> Mark:
      >>
      >> So, are you saying that the current arrangement I described in my
      >> previous
      >> e-mail is probably working as well as it will?
      >>
      >> Again, mine is 132 feet long--88 on the long end, and 44 on the short
      >> end.
      >> It is fed with RG8U coax with a 4-1 balun at the feed point.
      >>
      >> This is a traditional Windom design that I was given by another fellow
      >> ham.
      >>
      >> Will give the antenna a work-out today and tomorrow on the Pennsylvania
      >> QSO
      >> Party contest.
      >>
      >> 73 from Tom Behler: KB8TYJ
      >>
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: <k8mhz@...>
      >> To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:17 AM
      >> Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
      >>
      >>
      >>> Hi Tom,
      >>>
      >>> Here is a link with some info about the antenna you are trying to build:
      >>>
      >>> http://users.erols.com/k3mt/windom/windom.htm
      >>>
      >>> In summary, the antenna is 41 and a half feet on one side and 96 and a
      >>> half
      >>> feet on the other made from 12AWG wire, fed with 50 ohm coax and matched
      >>> with a 9:1 balun. It covers six bands but 30 is not listed.
      >>>
      >>> Good luck!
      >>>
      >>> 73
      >>>
      >>> Mark K8MHZ
      >>>
      >>> ----- Original Message -----
      >>> From: "T Behler" <tbehler@...>
      >>> To: "west michigan hams" <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
      >>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:06
      >>> Subject: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> Hi, all.
      >>>>
      >>>> This is Tom Behler: KB8TYJ.
      >>>>
      >>>> As some of you may know, I live in Big Rapids. I also am Mecosta
      >>>> County's
      >>>> EC/RO
      >>>>
      >>>> Anyway, I have recently put up a traditional Windom antenna for HF, and
      >>>> am
      >>>> not quite getting the results I had hoped.
      >>>>
      >>>> My Windom is a coax-fed 80-meter
      >>>> Windom. It is fed by RG8U coax, and has a 4-1 balun at the feed point
      >>>> on
      >>>> my tower. The feedpoint and legs are all about 35 feet off the ground.
      >>>> The
      >>>> short leg is 44 feet long, and the longer leg is 88 feet long. I based
      >>>> these lengths on the following formula:
      >>>>
      >>>> 468 divided by 3.550 Megahertz. I then multiplied 132 feet by .66 for
      >>>> the
      >>>> long end, and .33 for the short end. Due to space limitations, 8 feet
      >>>> of
      >>>> the longer leg is hanging down vertically.
      >>>>
      >>>> My SWR's on the various HF bands are marginal in many cases. Let me
      >>>> give
      >>>> you some readings to show you what I mean:
      >>>>
      >>>> I took readings at the low end, the center, and the high end, of the
      >>>> following bands, and came up with the following SWR readings:
      >>>>
      >>>> 80 meters:
      >>>> 2.9 2.1 1.1
      >>>>
      >>>> 40 meters:
      >>>> 3.3 3.1 2.3
      >>>>
      >>>> 20 meters:
      >>>> 3.0 2.4 1.7
      >>>>
      >>>> 15 meters:
      >>>> 3.8 3.9 4.8
      >>>>
      >>>> 10 meters from 28.05 to 28.5(very surprising):
      >>>> 5.1 4.7 3.4
      >>>>
      >>>> 17 meters:
      >>>> 1.7 1.8 2.0
      >>>>
      >>>> 30 meters:
      >>>> around 8.1 to 1 throughout--basically untunable.
      >>>>
      >>>> It has been suggested that my problem lies in the fact that i
      >>>> multiplied
      >>>> the
      >>>> 132 foot figure by the wrong factors, when doing my initial
      >>>> calculations.
      >>>> Perhaps I should have multiplied 132 by .64 and .36. This may mean
      >>>> that
      >>>> my
      >>>> long leg is now roughly 3 feet too long, and my short leg is roughly 3
      >>>> feet
      >>>> too short.
      >>>>
      >>>> At this point in my e-mail, I need to add the fact that I am a blind
      >>>> ham,
      >>>> who needs help with antenna projects of this nature. The antenna has
      >>>> been
      >>>> put up and taken down twice already, under rather difficult conditions,
      >>>> and
      >>>> I really am hesitant to have all of that done again by sighted help,
      >>>> unless
      >>>> I'm absolutely sure that any fix will truly correct the problems I am
      >>>> having.
      >>>>
      >>>> The antenna obviously is usable on most bands, with the auto-tuner in
      >>>> my
      >>>> Kenwood TS480, but I am sure the antenna is not performing optimally.
      >>>>
      >>>> Can someone tell me if I really need to modify this antenna again to
      >>>> make
      >>>> it
      >>>> work better, and what that modification should be?
      >>>>
      >>>> Also, is there anything I can do or check from the ground before going
      >>>> to
      >>>> all this trouble?
      >>>>
      >>>> Thanks for reading this e-mail.
      >>>>
      >>>> I look forward to any responses someone can provide.
      >>>>
      >>>> 73 from Tom Behler: Kb8TYJ, Big Rapids, MI
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> ------------------------------------
      >>>>
      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> --
      >>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
      >>>> Checked by AVG.
      >>>> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date:
      >>>> 10/10/2008
      >>>> 4:08 PM
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> ------------------------------------
      >>>
      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> --
      >> No virus found in this incoming message.
      >> Checked by AVG.
      >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date:
      >> 10/10/2008
      >> 4:08 PM
      >>
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • T Behler
      Thanks, Jim. Well, I m using a 4 - 1 balun, so at least that s right! (grin) 73 de KB8TYJ ... From: Jim KC8PCJ To:
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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        Thanks, Jim.

        Well, I'm using a 4 - 1 balun, so at least that's right! (grin)

        73 de KB8TYJ

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jim KC8PCJ" <kc8pcj@...>
        To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 6:10 PM
        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


        > Here are the deminsions and the plan that I used. Depending on how high
        > the
        > antenna is, they use a different balun. further down in the text they say
        > when in doubt use a 4-1 balun.
        >
        >
        > http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=15683
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • T Behler
        Jim: I m reading the mail with interest here. I m using the auto-tuner in the TS480, although I have an old MFJ 901B versatuner that I can also use with my
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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          Jim:

          I'm reading the mail with interest here.

          I'm using the auto-tuner in the TS480, although I have an old MFJ 901B
          versatuner that I can also use with my talking SWR meter if needed.

          Will continue to play around as I get time.

          73 from Tom Behler: KB8TYJ, Big Rapids

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jim KC8PCJ" <kc8pcj@...>
          To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:29 PM
          Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


          How about 8 PM on 14.235?

          I reset my tuners memory and it does not do as much tuning within each band.
          So it appears that even though the swr has changed it is flatter across each
          band.

          Tom: Hope some of this information has helped you.
          What kind of tuner are you running?

          I will do some more SWR reading and record them so you can compare.



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Richards
          To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:15 PM
          Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


          When ya gonna try it? Maybe I can find you on the air...

          ================ K8JHR =================

          Jim KC8PCJ wrote:
          > Well I made some changes. Went to 80' on the long side and 45 on the
          > short. 40M got much better 3.9 to 1.5 however 20 went the other way,
          > from 1.6 to 3.6. Tuner still cleans things up. Wish I had many more
          > hours to play but Will give it a try on the air and see what happens.

          ===================================================
        • Richards
          Aw... shoot. I got busy on a project and did not see your reply. (project is copying all the old user manuals into PDF format for Ten-Tec as a favor to
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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            Aw... shoot. I got busy on a project and did not see your reply.

            (project is copying all the old user manuals into PDF format
            for Ten-Tec as a favor to them... you cannot make too many
            friends...

            Sorry. =========== James - K8JHr =============

            Jim KC8PCJ wrote:
            > How about 8 PM on 14.235?
            >
            >
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