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Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?

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  • k8mhz@k8mhz.com
    Hello Tom, Well, I am certainly no expert on the off center fed antennas but I just happened to run across the site I posted and thought I would share it with
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 11, 2008
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      Hello Tom,

      Well, I am certainly no expert on the off center fed antennas but I just
      happened to run across the site I posted and thought I would share it with
      you.

      Nonetheless, we often put too much faith in SWR readings. Many times they
      have NOTHING to do with antenna efficiency. All SWR readings are really
      good for is to make sure that today's solid state radios won't be harmed by
      reflected energy. The topic of SWR, feedline loss and antenna efficiency is
      way to complex to master via e-mail.

      That being said, Greg's post is one to consider as well.

      Personally, I prefer to feed a multi-band antenna with balanced line so that
      no matter what the SWR readings are at efficiency there will be negligible
      loss therein. If you want to make an attempt to understand all this I
      strongly suggest reading 'Reflections' by Walt Maxwell W2DU.

      If you are only interested in getting a wire in the air to connect with the
      world my feelings are that a few of us should get together with an analyzer
      and come out to help you meet your goal.

      As Greg mentioned, 30 is an odd duck. If you really want to be hot on 30 it
      may be best to have a dedicated antenna for that band.

      You may also want to investigate building a fan dipole. So many ways to
      skin the same duck makes this craft most enjoyable, in my humble opinion.

      Cheers and best of 73

      Mark K8MHZ

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Tom Behler" <tbehler@...>
      To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:48
      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


      > Mark:
      >
      > So, are you saying that the current arrangement I described in my previous
      > e-mail is probably working as well as it will?
      >
      > Again, mine is 132 feet long--88 on the long end, and 44 on the short end.
      > It is fed with RG8U coax with a 4-1 balun at the feed point.
      >
      > This is a traditional Windom design that I was given by another fellow
      > ham.
      >
      > Will give the antenna a work-out today and tomorrow on the Pennsylvania
      > QSO
      > Party contest.
      >
      > 73 from Tom Behler: KB8TYJ
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: <k8mhz@...>
      > To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:17 AM
      > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
      >
      >
      >> Hi Tom,
      >>
      >> Here is a link with some info about the antenna you are trying to build:
      >>
      >> http://users.erols.com/k3mt/windom/windom.htm
      >>
      >> In summary, the antenna is 41 and a half feet on one side and 96 and a
      >> half
      >> feet on the other made from 12AWG wire, fed with 50 ohm coax and matched
      >> with a 9:1 balun. It covers six bands but 30 is not listed.
      >>
      >> Good luck!
      >>
      >> 73
      >>
      >> Mark K8MHZ
      >>
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: "T Behler" <tbehler@...>
      >> To: "west michigan hams" <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:06
      >> Subject: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
      >>
      >>
      >>> Hi, all.
      >>>
      >>> This is Tom Behler: KB8TYJ.
      >>>
      >>> As some of you may know, I live in Big Rapids. I also am Mecosta
      >>> County's
      >>> EC/RO
      >>>
      >>> Anyway, I have recently put up a traditional Windom antenna for HF, and
      >>> am
      >>> not quite getting the results I had hoped.
      >>>
      >>> My Windom is a coax-fed 80-meter
      >>> Windom. It is fed by RG8U coax, and has a 4-1 balun at the feed point
      >>> on
      >>> my tower. The feedpoint and legs are all about 35 feet off the ground.
      >>> The
      >>> short leg is 44 feet long, and the longer leg is 88 feet long. I based
      >>> these lengths on the following formula:
      >>>
      >>> 468 divided by 3.550 Megahertz. I then multiplied 132 feet by .66 for
      >>> the
      >>> long end, and .33 for the short end. Due to space limitations, 8 feet
      >>> of
      >>> the longer leg is hanging down vertically.
      >>>
      >>> My SWR's on the various HF bands are marginal in many cases. Let me
      >>> give
      >>> you some readings to show you what I mean:
      >>>
      >>> I took readings at the low end, the center, and the high end, of the
      >>> following bands, and came up with the following SWR readings:
      >>>
      >>> 80 meters:
      >>> 2.9 2.1 1.1
      >>>
      >>> 40 meters:
      >>> 3.3 3.1 2.3
      >>>
      >>> 20 meters:
      >>> 3.0 2.4 1.7
      >>>
      >>> 15 meters:
      >>> 3.8 3.9 4.8
      >>>
      >>> 10 meters from 28.05 to 28.5(very surprising):
      >>> 5.1 4.7 3.4
      >>>
      >>> 17 meters:
      >>> 1.7 1.8 2.0
      >>>
      >>> 30 meters:
      >>> around 8.1 to 1 throughout--basically untunable.
      >>>
      >>> It has been suggested that my problem lies in the fact that i multiplied
      >>> the
      >>> 132 foot figure by the wrong factors, when doing my initial
      >>> calculations.
      >>> Perhaps I should have multiplied 132 by .64 and .36. This may mean that
      >>> my
      >>> long leg is now roughly 3 feet too long, and my short leg is roughly 3
      >>> feet
      >>> too short.
      >>>
      >>> At this point in my e-mail, I need to add the fact that I am a blind
      >>> ham,
      >>> who needs help with antenna projects of this nature. The antenna has
      >>> been
      >>> put up and taken down twice already, under rather difficult conditions,
      >>> and
      >>> I really am hesitant to have all of that done again by sighted help,
      >>> unless
      >>> I'm absolutely sure that any fix will truly correct the problems I am
      >>> having.
      >>>
      >>> The antenna obviously is usable on most bands, with the auto-tuner in my
      >>> Kenwood TS480, but I am sure the antenna is not performing optimally.
      >>>
      >>> Can someone tell me if I really need to modify this antenna again to
      >>> make
      >>> it
      >>> work better, and what that modification should be?
      >>>
      >>> Also, is there anything I can do or check from the ground before going
      >>> to
      >>> all this trouble?
      >>>
      >>> Thanks for reading this e-mail.
      >>>
      >>> I look forward to any responses someone can provide.
      >>>
      >>> 73 from Tom Behler: Kb8TYJ, Big Rapids, MI
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> ------------------------------------
      >>>
      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> --
      >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
      >>> Checked by AVG.
      >>> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date:
      >>> 10/10/2008
      >>> 4:08 PM
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG.
      > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date: 10/10/2008
      > 4:08 PM
      >
    • Jim KC8PCJ
      I hope to lower mine tomorrow and tweak it a bit.. I will let you know what lengths I wind up with. My antenna is about 35 feet above the ground and runs NW to
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 11, 2008
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        I hope to lower mine tomorrow and tweak it a bit.. I will let you know what
        lengths I wind up with. My antenna is about 35 feet above the ground and
        runs NW to SE.



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "T Behler" <tbehler@...>
        To: "west michigan hams" <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:06 PM
        Subject: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


        > Hi, all.
        >
        > This is Tom Behler: KB8TYJ.
        >
        > As some of you may know, I live in Big Rapids. I also am Mecosta County's
        > EC/RO
        >
        > Anyway, I have recently put up a traditional Windom antenna for HF, and am
        > not quite getting the results I had hoped.
        >
        > My Windom is a coax-fed 80-meter
        > Windom. It is fed by RG8U coax, and has a 4-1 balun at the feed point on
        > my tower. The feedpoint and legs are all about 35 feet off the ground.
        The
        > short leg is 44 feet long, and the longer leg is 88 feet long. I based
        > these lengths on the following formula:
        >
        > 468 divided by 3.550 Megahertz. I then multiplied 132 feet by .66 for
        the
        > long end, and .33 for the short end. Due to space limitations, 8 feet of
        > the longer leg is hanging down vertically.
        >
        > My SWR's on the various HF bands are marginal in many cases. Let me give
        > you some readings to show you what I mean:
        >
        > I took readings at the low end, the center, and the high end, of the
        > following bands, and came up with the following SWR readings:
        >
        > 80 meters:
        > 2.9 2.1 1.1
        >
        > 40 meters:
        > 3.3 3.1 2.3
        >
        > 20 meters:
        > 3.0 2.4 1.7
        >
        > 15 meters:
        > 3.8 3.9 4.8
        >
        > 10 meters from 28.05 to 28.5(very surprising):
        > 5.1 4.7 3.4
        >
        > 17 meters:
        > 1.7 1.8 2.0
        >
        > 30 meters:
        > around 8.1 to 1 throughout--basically untunable.
        >
        > It has been suggested that my problem lies in the fact that i multiplied
        the
        > 132 foot figure by the wrong factors, when doing my initial calculations.
        > Perhaps I should have multiplied 132 by .64 and .36. This may mean that
        my
        > long leg is now roughly 3 feet too long, and my short leg is roughly 3
        feet
        > too short.
        >
        > At this point in my e-mail, I need to add the fact that I am a blind ham,
        > who needs help with antenna projects of this nature. The antenna has been
        > put up and taken down twice already, under rather difficult conditions,
        and
        > I really am hesitant to have all of that done again by sighted help,
        unless
        > I'm absolutely sure that any fix will truly correct the problems I am
        > having.
        >
        > The antenna obviously is usable on most bands, with the auto-tuner in my
        > Kenwood TS480, but I am sure the antenna is not performing optimally.
        >
        > Can someone tell me if I really need to modify this antenna again to make
        it
        > work better, and what that modification should be?
        >
        > Also, is there anything I can do or check from the ground before going to
        > all this trouble?
        >
        > Thanks for reading this e-mail.
        >
        > I look forward to any responses someone can provide.
        >
        > 73 from Tom Behler: Kb8TYJ, Big Rapids, MI
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Jim KC8PCJ
        Here are the deminsions and the plan that I used. Depending on how high the antenna is, they use a different balun. further down in the text they say when in
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 11, 2008
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          Here are the deminsions and the plan that I used. Depending on how high the
          antenna is, they use a different balun. further down in the text they say
          when in doubt use a 4-1 balun.


          http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=15683
        • Richards
          Gee Jim -- I ran the numbers according to that formula, and came up with an 80-10 meter OCF Windom - which is not really a windom because I think that a
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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            Gee Jim -- I ran the numbers according to that formula, and
            came up with an 80-10 meter OCF "Windom" - which is not
            really a windom because I think that a "true' windom is a single
            wire, like a random wire, that is off center fed "Marconi style"...
            but anyway...

            I came up with a total length of 123 feet, with 79 on the long
            side and 44 feet on the short side (rounded off to whole
            numbers.)

            Using the formula for a 160 meter antenna, I came up with
            166 feet on the long side, and 166 on the short side, for
            a total length of 260 feet, with 166 on the long side, and
            94 feet on the short side.

            The article pictures one measuring 135 feet in length, and
            it is 90 feet on the long side, and 45 feet on the short side.

            NONE of these measurements seem to coincide with your
            antenna measurements as stated in the first post.

            Maybe you need to revisit the formula and double check the
            lengths to be sure both sides are correct.

            Not sure what happens when the lengths are not determed
            according to the formula, but are just in direct proportion to
            what the formala would call for... but I doubt it would work as
            well as cutting the lengths to what the formula calls for, and
            not being just in proper proportion.

            Happy trails. Hope this is helpful in some way.

            =============== Richards - K8JHR =============



            Jim KC8PCJ wrote:
            > Here are the deminsions and the plan that I used. Depending on
            how high the antenna is, they use a different balun. further down in the
            text they say when in doubt use a 4-1 balun.
            >
            > http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=15683
            >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          • Jim KC8PCJ
            Well I have looked at so many numbers and different plans, now I am getting a little confused. You are right the Original windom was a single wire fed aprox
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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              Well I have looked at so many numbers and different plans, now I am getting a little confused. You are right the Original "windom" was a single wire fed aprox 14% off center. The antenna I have built and found plans on the web is many time referred to as a "Carolina Windom". It is off center fed at 33% and uses a 9-1, 6-1, 4-1 balun (depending on what plans you look at) and a portion of the coax is used as a vertical radiator with a choke at 22' down from the balun. Maybe the correct term would be to call it a OFC Multi band dipole. I have found many plans for this antenna and there seems to be many variations. Baluns and lengths also seem to vary.
               
              I guess in the end antennas may be a science but than again when you can find the resonant freq of any object, It could be an antenna. ie the window blind that was in a article in QST.
               
              I am glad to see this discussion. It keeps the brain working. Today I am going to drop my antenna, do a little trimming and see what happens. Hopefully after all this I will have an even better antenna.
               
              Will let you know what happens.
               
              73s Jim
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Richards
              Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 3:18 AM
              Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?

              Gee Jim -- I ran the numbers according to that formula, and
              came up with an 80-10 meter OCF "Windom" - which is not
              really a windom because I think that a "true' windom is a single
              wire, like a random wire, that is off center fed "Marconi style"...
              but anyway...

              I came up with a total length of 123 feet, with 79 on the long
              side and 44 feet on the short side (rounded off to whole
              numbers.)

              Using the formula for a 160 meter antenna, I came up with
              166 feet on the long side, and 166 on the short side, for
              a total length of 260 feet, with 166 on the long side, and
              94 feet on the short side.

              The article pictures one measuring 135 feet in length, and
              it is 90 feet on the long side, and 45 feet on the short side.

              NONE of these measurements seem to coincide with your
              antenna measurements as stated in the first post.

              Maybe you need to revisit the formula and double check the
              lengths to be sure both sides are correct.

              Not sure what happens when the lengths are not determed
              according to the formula, but are just in direct proportion to
              what the formala would call for... but I doubt it would work as
              well as cutting the lengths to what the formula calls for, and
              not being just in proper proportion.

              Happy trails. Hope this is helpful in some way.

              ============ === Richards - K8JHR ============ =

              Jim KC8PCJ wrote:
              > Here are the deminsions and the plan that I used. Depending on
              how high the antenna is, they use a different balun. further down in the
              text they say when in doubt use a 4-1 balun.
              >
              > http://www.dxzone. com/cgi-bin/ dir/jump2. cgi?ID=15683
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

            • Richards
              When ya gonna try it? Maybe I can find you on the air... ================ K8JHR ================= ... ===================================================
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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                When ya gonna try it? Maybe I can find you on the air...


                ================ K8JHR =================

                Jim KC8PCJ wrote:
                > Well I made some changes. Went to 80' on the long side and 45 on the
                > short. 40M got much better 3.9 to 1.5 however 20 went the other way,
                > from 1.6 to 3.6. Tuner still cleans things up. Wish I had many more
                > hours to play but Will give it a try on the air and see what happens.

                ===================================================
              • Jim KC8PCJ
                Well I made some changes. Went to 80 on the long side and 45 on the short. 40M got much better 3.9 to 1.5 however 20 went the other way, from 1.6 to 3.6.
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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                  Well I made some changes. Went  to 80' on the long side and 45 on the short. 40M got much better 3.9 to 1.5 however 20 went the other way, from 1.6 to 3.6. Tuner still cleans things up. Wish I had many more hours to play but Will give it a try on the air and see what happens.
                   

                • Jim KC8PCJ
                  How about 8 PM on 14.235? I reset my tuners memory and it does not do as much tuning within each band. So it appears that even though the swr has changed it is
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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                    How about 8 PM on 14.235?
                     
                    I reset my tuners memory and it does not do as much tuning within each band. So it appears that even though the swr has changed it is flatter across each band.
                     
                    Tom: Hope some of this information has helped you.
                    What kind of tuner are you running?
                     
                    I will do some more SWR reading and record them so you can compare.
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Richards
                    Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:15 PM
                    Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?

                    When ya gonna try it? Maybe I can find you on the air...

                    ============ ==== K8JHR ============ =====

                    Jim KC8PCJ wrote:
                    > Well I made some changes. Went to 80' on the long side and 45 on the
                    > short. 40M got much better 3.9 to 1.5 however 20 went the other way,
                    > from 1.6 to 3.6. Tuner still cleans things up. Wish I had many more
                    > hours to play but Will give it a try on the air and see what happens.

                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ===

                  • T Behler
                    Greg: Sorry for the delay in my response. Just catching up on e-mail here, since I spent most of the week-end doing the Pennsylvania QSO Party contest.
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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                      Greg:

                      Sorry for the delay in my response.

                      Just catching up on e-mail here, since I spent most of the week-end doing
                      the Pennsylvania QSO Party contest.

                      Actually, you may be right:

                      I was very surprised as to how well my Windom actually worked during the
                      contest, especially given the absolutely horendous conditions on 40 meters
                      yesterday.

                      Made 250 contacts, and got all but 4 of the 67 Pennsylvania counties.

                      Worked 40 and 80 CW and phone.

                      A real fun contest to be sure, since I grew up in PA and got my first ham
                      license there.

                      Will continue to work with the antenna, but I was very pleasantly surprised.

                      73 from Tom Behler: Kb8TYJ, Big Rapids

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "kc8hxo" <kc8hxo@...>
                      To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:15 PM
                      Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: any Windom experts out there?




                      Tom-
                      I am no expert, first off. I have also built and used a few different
                      wire antennas on HF. I do not think your SWR readings are surpising,
                      nor do I feel they show that your antenna is not working optimally. As
                      to 30M being un-tunable, it is often the "black sheep" when it comes
                      to HF antennas, as it is not harmonically related to the other bands.
                      Again- I am not surprised the SWR on 10Mc is higher than all the
                      others. Why are you figuring it is not working well? Do you have
                      another antenna to compare it to? Just curious. Performance is
                      subjective without a comparison antenna of known performance, or field
                      strength measurements.
                      Another thing I've found is that MANY (read "most") Baluns you buy are
                      of inferior quality.

                      Not sure any of this is help, but hopefully is food for thought, any way.

                      Look forward to hearing you on the air!!

                      73-
                      Greg Schippers, KC8HXO

                      --- In WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com, "T Behler" <tbehler@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi, all.
                      >
                      > This is Tom Behler: KB8TYJ.
                      >
                      > As some of you may know, I live in Big Rapids. I also am Mecosta
                      County's
                      > EC/RO
                      >
                      > Anyway, I have recently put up a traditional Windom antenna for HF,
                      and am
                      > not quite getting the results I had hoped.
                      >
                      > My Windom is a coax-fed 80-meter
                      > Windom. It is fed by RG8U coax, and has a 4-1 balun at the feed
                      point on
                      > my tower.

                      SNIPPED____________________________________________________
                    • T Behler
                      I am thinking of re-visiting the length issue for each leg at some point, but it s so hard to get the antenna up and down, given my property situation, that I
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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                        I am thinking of re-visiting the length issue for each leg at some
                        point, but it's so hard to get the antenna up and down, given my property
                        situation, that I may have to put that off for a while.

                        Will keep your thoughts in mind, though, for future reference.

                        73 from Tom Behler: KB8TYJ

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Richards" <jruing@...>
                        To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 1:29 PM
                        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: any Windom experts out there?


                        >I think your feed point is at the wrong spot. My ARRL Antenna Handbook
                        > suggests placing the feed point 14 per cent off center, so that a 130 foot
                        > windom, has a feed point 47 feet from one end. Sometimes the feed point
                        > is moved slightly to accommodate balanced line feeder, and this design,
                        > sometimes called the Carolina Windom, uses a portion of the feeder as
                        > a vertical radiator, eliminating the problem with the feed line
                        > radiating, as
                        > it is intended to do just that.
                        >
                        > Common dimensions for the Carolina Windom are 130 feet ling, with
                        > the feed point 50 feet from one end, and 83 feet from the other end.
                        >
                        > So... I am thinking that your feed point may be off - AND maybe that your
                        > overall length may be less than optimal as well. It may be closer to 30
                        > per cent from one end, rather than 33 or 35 percent...
                        >
                        > Just my take. I would reconsider the length and feed line situation.
                        >
                        > ============= Richards K8JHR - Gran Rapids, MI ===========
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • T Behler
                        Ok, Jim. ... Thanks! 73 de KB8TYJ ... From: Jim KC8PCJ To: Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 2:30 PM
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
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                          Ok, Jim. ... Thanks!

                          73 de KB8TYJ

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Jim KC8PCJ" <kc8pcj@...>
                          To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 2:30 PM
                          Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


                          >I think I stated the wrong dimensions on my antenna, the numbers don't add
                          > up. Here is another site.
                          >
                          > http://www.radioworks.com/ccwcover.html
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Tom Behler" <tbehler@...>
                          > To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 9:48 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
                          >
                          >
                          >> Mark:
                          >>
                          >> So, are you saying that the current arrangement I described in my
                          >> previous
                          >> e-mail is probably working as well as it will?
                          >>
                          >> Again, mine is 132 feet long--88 on the long end, and 44 on the short
                          >> end.
                          >> It is fed with RG8U coax with a 4-1 balun at the feed point.
                          >>
                          >> This is a traditional Windom design that I was given by another fellow
                          > ham.
                          >>
                          >> Will give the antenna a work-out today and tomorrow on the Pennsylvania
                          > QSO
                          >> Party contest.
                          >>
                          >> 73 from Tom Behler: KB8TYJ
                          >>
                          >> ----- Original Message -----
                          >> From: <k8mhz@...>
                          >> To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                          >> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:17 AM
                          >> Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> > Hi Tom,
                          >> >
                          >> > Here is a link with some info about the antenna you are trying to
                          >> > build:
                          >> >
                          >> > http://users.erols.com/k3mt/windom/windom.htm
                          >> >
                          >> > In summary, the antenna is 41 and a half feet on one side and 96 and a
                          >> > half
                          >> > feet on the other made from 12AWG wire, fed with 50 ohm coax and
                          >> > matched
                          >> > with a 9:1 balun. It covers six bands but 30 is not listed.
                          >> >
                          >> > Good luck!
                          >> >
                          >> > 73
                          >> >
                          >> > Mark K8MHZ
                          >> >
                          >> > ----- Original Message -----
                          >> > From: "T Behler" <tbehler@...>
                          >> > To: "west michigan hams" <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                          >> > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:06
                          >> > Subject: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >> Hi, all.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> This is Tom Behler: KB8TYJ.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> As some of you may know, I live in Big Rapids. I also am Mecosta
                          >> >> County's
                          >> >> EC/RO
                          >> >>
                          >> >> Anyway, I have recently put up a traditional Windom antenna for HF,
                          >> >> and
                          >> >> am
                          >> >> not quite getting the results I had hoped.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> My Windom is a coax-fed 80-meter
                          >> >> Windom. It is fed by RG8U coax, and has a 4-1 balun at the feed point
                          > on
                          >> >> my tower. The feedpoint and legs are all about 35 feet off the
                          >> >> ground.
                          >> >> The
                          >> >> short leg is 44 feet long, and the longer leg is 88 feet long. I
                          >> >> based
                          >> >> these lengths on the following formula:
                          >> >>
                          >> >> 468 divided by 3.550 Megahertz. I then multiplied 132 feet by .66
                          >> >> for
                          >> >> the
                          >> >> long end, and .33 for the short end. Due to space limitations, 8 feet
                          >> >> of
                          >> >> the longer leg is hanging down vertically.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> My SWR's on the various HF bands are marginal in many cases. Let me
                          > give
                          >> >> you some readings to show you what I mean:
                          >> >>
                          >> >> I took readings at the low end, the center, and the high end, of the
                          >> >> following bands, and came up with the following SWR readings:
                          >> >>
                          >> >> 80 meters:
                          >> >> 2.9 2.1 1.1
                          >> >>
                          >> >> 40 meters:
                          >> >> 3.3 3.1 2.3
                          >> >>
                          >> >> 20 meters:
                          >> >> 3.0 2.4 1.7
                          >> >>
                          >> >> 15 meters:
                          >> >> 3.8 3.9 4.8
                          >> >>
                          >> >> 10 meters from 28.05 to 28.5(very surprising):
                          >> >> 5.1 4.7 3.4
                          >> >>
                          >> >> 17 meters:
                          >> >> 1.7 1.8 2.0
                          >> >>
                          >> >> 30 meters:
                          >> >> around 8.1 to 1 throughout--basically untunable.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> It has been suggested that my problem lies in the fact that i
                          > multiplied
                          >> >> the
                          >> >> 132 foot figure by the wrong factors, when doing my initial
                          > calculations.
                          >> >> Perhaps I should have multiplied 132 by .64 and .36. This may mean
                          > that
                          >> >> my
                          >> >> long leg is now roughly 3 feet too long, and my short leg is roughly 3
                          >> >> feet
                          >> >> too short.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> At this point in my e-mail, I need to add the fact that I am a blind
                          > ham,
                          >> >> who needs help with antenna projects of this nature. The antenna has
                          >> >> been
                          >> >> put up and taken down twice already, under rather difficult
                          >> >> conditions,
                          >> >> and
                          >> >> I really am hesitant to have all of that done again by sighted help,
                          >> >> unless
                          >> >> I'm absolutely sure that any fix will truly correct the problems I am
                          >> >> having.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> The antenna obviously is usable on most bands, with the auto-tuner in
                          > my
                          >> >> Kenwood TS480, but I am sure the antenna is not performing optimally.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> Can someone tell me if I really need to modify this antenna again to
                          > make
                          >> >> it
                          >> >> work better, and what that modification should be?
                          >> >>
                          >> >> Also, is there anything I can do or check from the ground before going
                          > to
                          >> >> all this trouble?
                          >> >>
                          >> >> Thanks for reading this e-mail.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> I look forward to any responses someone can provide.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> 73 from Tom Behler: Kb8TYJ, Big Rapids, MI
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> ------------------------------------
                          >> >>
                          >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> --
                          >> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                          >> >> Checked by AVG.
                          >> >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date:
                          >> >> 10/10/2008
                          >> >> 4:08 PM
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > ------------------------------------
                          >> >
                          >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • T Behler
                          Mark: See some of my earlier e-mails for the pleasant surprise I got as I used the antenna for the PA QSO Party this week-end. I know the antenna isn t quite
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Mark:

                            See some of my earlier e-mails for the pleasant surprise I got as I used the
                            antenna for the PA QSO Party this week-end.

                            I know the antenna isn't quite optimal, but it sure did well, given the
                            conditions that existed, especially yesterday.

                            I would hate to have you come all the way over here from Muskegon just to do
                            some work with the analyzer, so, unless you find yourself in Big Rapids for
                            some reason, I probably wouldn't worry about it. However, I truly
                            appreciate the offer.

                            Sure wish they made an antenna analyzer that talked! (HI! HI!)

                            73 from Tom Behler: KB8TYJ

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <k8mhz@...>
                            To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 3:29 PM
                            Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


                            > Hello Tom,
                            >
                            > Well, I am certainly no expert on the off center fed antennas but I just
                            > happened to run across the site I posted and thought I would share it with
                            > you.
                            >
                            > Nonetheless, we often put too much faith in SWR readings. Many times they
                            > have NOTHING to do with antenna efficiency. All SWR readings are really
                            > good for is to make sure that today's solid state radios won't be harmed
                            > by
                            > reflected energy. The topic of SWR, feedline loss and antenna efficiency
                            > is
                            > way to complex to master via e-mail.
                            >
                            > That being said, Greg's post is one to consider as well.
                            >
                            > Personally, I prefer to feed a multi-band antenna with balanced line so
                            > that
                            > no matter what the SWR readings are at efficiency there will be negligible
                            > loss therein. If you want to make an attempt to understand all this I
                            > strongly suggest reading 'Reflections' by Walt Maxwell W2DU.
                            >
                            > If you are only interested in getting a wire in the air to connect with
                            > the
                            > world my feelings are that a few of us should get together with an
                            > analyzer
                            > and come out to help you meet your goal.
                            >
                            > As Greg mentioned, 30 is an odd duck. If you really want to be hot on 30
                            > it
                            > may be best to have a dedicated antenna for that band.
                            >
                            > You may also want to investigate building a fan dipole. So many ways to
                            > skin the same duck makes this craft most enjoyable, in my humble opinion.
                            >
                            > Cheers and best of 73
                            >
                            > Mark K8MHZ
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Tom Behler" <tbehler@...>
                            > To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:48
                            > Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
                            >
                            >
                            >> Mark:
                            >>
                            >> So, are you saying that the current arrangement I described in my
                            >> previous
                            >> e-mail is probably working as well as it will?
                            >>
                            >> Again, mine is 132 feet long--88 on the long end, and 44 on the short
                            >> end.
                            >> It is fed with RG8U coax with a 4-1 balun at the feed point.
                            >>
                            >> This is a traditional Windom design that I was given by another fellow
                            >> ham.
                            >>
                            >> Will give the antenna a work-out today and tomorrow on the Pennsylvania
                            >> QSO
                            >> Party contest.
                            >>
                            >> 73 from Tom Behler: KB8TYJ
                            >>
                            >> ----- Original Message -----
                            >> From: <k8mhz@...>
                            >> To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                            >> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:17 AM
                            >> Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>> Hi Tom,
                            >>>
                            >>> Here is a link with some info about the antenna you are trying to build:
                            >>>
                            >>> http://users.erols.com/k3mt/windom/windom.htm
                            >>>
                            >>> In summary, the antenna is 41 and a half feet on one side and 96 and a
                            >>> half
                            >>> feet on the other made from 12AWG wire, fed with 50 ohm coax and matched
                            >>> with a 9:1 balun. It covers six bands but 30 is not listed.
                            >>>
                            >>> Good luck!
                            >>>
                            >>> 73
                            >>>
                            >>> Mark K8MHZ
                            >>>
                            >>> ----- Original Message -----
                            >>> From: "T Behler" <tbehler@...>
                            >>> To: "west michigan hams" <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                            >>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:06
                            >>> Subject: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>> Hi, all.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> This is Tom Behler: KB8TYJ.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> As some of you may know, I live in Big Rapids. I also am Mecosta
                            >>>> County's
                            >>>> EC/RO
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Anyway, I have recently put up a traditional Windom antenna for HF, and
                            >>>> am
                            >>>> not quite getting the results I had hoped.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> My Windom is a coax-fed 80-meter
                            >>>> Windom. It is fed by RG8U coax, and has a 4-1 balun at the feed point
                            >>>> on
                            >>>> my tower. The feedpoint and legs are all about 35 feet off the ground.
                            >>>> The
                            >>>> short leg is 44 feet long, and the longer leg is 88 feet long. I based
                            >>>> these lengths on the following formula:
                            >>>>
                            >>>> 468 divided by 3.550 Megahertz. I then multiplied 132 feet by .66 for
                            >>>> the
                            >>>> long end, and .33 for the short end. Due to space limitations, 8 feet
                            >>>> of
                            >>>> the longer leg is hanging down vertically.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> My SWR's on the various HF bands are marginal in many cases. Let me
                            >>>> give
                            >>>> you some readings to show you what I mean:
                            >>>>
                            >>>> I took readings at the low end, the center, and the high end, of the
                            >>>> following bands, and came up with the following SWR readings:
                            >>>>
                            >>>> 80 meters:
                            >>>> 2.9 2.1 1.1
                            >>>>
                            >>>> 40 meters:
                            >>>> 3.3 3.1 2.3
                            >>>>
                            >>>> 20 meters:
                            >>>> 3.0 2.4 1.7
                            >>>>
                            >>>> 15 meters:
                            >>>> 3.8 3.9 4.8
                            >>>>
                            >>>> 10 meters from 28.05 to 28.5(very surprising):
                            >>>> 5.1 4.7 3.4
                            >>>>
                            >>>> 17 meters:
                            >>>> 1.7 1.8 2.0
                            >>>>
                            >>>> 30 meters:
                            >>>> around 8.1 to 1 throughout--basically untunable.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> It has been suggested that my problem lies in the fact that i
                            >>>> multiplied
                            >>>> the
                            >>>> 132 foot figure by the wrong factors, when doing my initial
                            >>>> calculations.
                            >>>> Perhaps I should have multiplied 132 by .64 and .36. This may mean
                            >>>> that
                            >>>> my
                            >>>> long leg is now roughly 3 feet too long, and my short leg is roughly 3
                            >>>> feet
                            >>>> too short.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> At this point in my e-mail, I need to add the fact that I am a blind
                            >>>> ham,
                            >>>> who needs help with antenna projects of this nature. The antenna has
                            >>>> been
                            >>>> put up and taken down twice already, under rather difficult conditions,
                            >>>> and
                            >>>> I really am hesitant to have all of that done again by sighted help,
                            >>>> unless
                            >>>> I'm absolutely sure that any fix will truly correct the problems I am
                            >>>> having.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> The antenna obviously is usable on most bands, with the auto-tuner in
                            >>>> my
                            >>>> Kenwood TS480, but I am sure the antenna is not performing optimally.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Can someone tell me if I really need to modify this antenna again to
                            >>>> make
                            >>>> it
                            >>>> work better, and what that modification should be?
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Also, is there anything I can do or check from the ground before going
                            >>>> to
                            >>>> all this trouble?
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Thanks for reading this e-mail.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> I look forward to any responses someone can provide.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> 73 from Tom Behler: Kb8TYJ, Big Rapids, MI
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>> --
                            >>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
                            >>>> Checked by AVG.
                            >>>> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date:
                            >>>> 10/10/2008
                            >>>> 4:08 PM
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>
                            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> --
                            >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                            >> Checked by AVG.
                            >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date:
                            >> 10/10/2008
                            >> 4:08 PM
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • T Behler
                            Thanks, Jim. Well, I m using a 4 - 1 balun, so at least that s right! (grin) 73 de KB8TYJ ... From: Jim KC8PCJ To:
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks, Jim.

                              Well, I'm using a 4 - 1 balun, so at least that's right! (grin)

                              73 de KB8TYJ

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Jim KC8PCJ" <kc8pcj@...>
                              To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 6:10 PM
                              Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


                              > Here are the deminsions and the plan that I used. Depending on how high
                              > the
                              > antenna is, they use a different balun. further down in the text they say
                              > when in doubt use a 4-1 balun.
                              >
                              >
                              > http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=15683
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • T Behler
                              Jim: I m reading the mail with interest here. I m using the auto-tuner in the TS480, although I have an old MFJ 901B versatuner that I can also use with my
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Jim:

                                I'm reading the mail with interest here.

                                I'm using the auto-tuner in the TS480, although I have an old MFJ 901B
                                versatuner that I can also use with my talking SWR meter if needed.

                                Will continue to play around as I get time.

                                73 from Tom Behler: KB8TYJ, Big Rapids

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Jim KC8PCJ" <kc8pcj@...>
                                To: <WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:29 PM
                                Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


                                How about 8 PM on 14.235?

                                I reset my tuners memory and it does not do as much tuning within each band.
                                So it appears that even though the swr has changed it is flatter across each
                                band.

                                Tom: Hope some of this information has helped you.
                                What kind of tuner are you running?

                                I will do some more SWR reading and record them so you can compare.



                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Richards
                                To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:15 PM
                                Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] any Windom experts out there?


                                When ya gonna try it? Maybe I can find you on the air...

                                ================ K8JHR =================

                                Jim KC8PCJ wrote:
                                > Well I made some changes. Went to 80' on the long side and 45 on the
                                > short. 40M got much better 3.9 to 1.5 however 20 went the other way,
                                > from 1.6 to 3.6. Tuner still cleans things up. Wish I had many more
                                > hours to play but Will give it a try on the air and see what happens.

                                ===================================================
                              • Richards
                                Aw... shoot. I got busy on a project and did not see your reply. (project is copying all the old user manuals into PDF format for Ten-Tec as a favor to
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 12, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Aw... shoot. I got busy on a project and did not see your reply.

                                  (project is copying all the old user manuals into PDF format
                                  for Ten-Tec as a favor to them... you cannot make too many
                                  friends...

                                  Sorry. =========== James - K8JHr =============

                                  Jim KC8PCJ wrote:
                                  > How about 8 PM on 14.235?
                                  >
                                  >
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