Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [WestMichiganHams] Wind Turbine in a Box

Expand Messages
  • k8mhz@k8mhz.com
    Call me skeptical, but.... The WindTronics 200-watt unit will take care of about 10 percent to 20 percent of a normal residential home s electrical needs. It
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 18, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Call me skeptical, but....
       
      "The WindTronics 200-watt unit will take care of about 10 percent to 20 percent of a normal residential home's electrical needs."
       
      It would take six of these running at full capacity to operate a hand held hair dryer.  That is for a 1200 watt version.  I have seen these up to 1850 watts.
       
      200 watts at 120 volts is only 1.67 amps.  It would take just under 9 of these units to provide enough power to trip *one* 15 amp circuit breaker.
       
      At 10 cents a kilowatt hour this unit would provide a total of 2 cents an hour of payback.  That's 48 cents a day or $14.48 cents per month.....*if* running at full capacity 24/7 for the entire month.  Realistically, you would probably notice 4 or 5 dollars difference in your bill.
       
      If the claims of the people selling these windmills were even close to being true, the demand would be substantially more than the supply, which it is not.
       
      Considering a 100 dollar per month electricity bill we can translate that into an average of 1380 watts or about 11 amps.  This is an average and we usually see peaks of 60 or 70 amps and lulls of around 5 or so.  Remember, the windmill is only capable of 1.67 amps maximum.
       
      Sorry to sound so negative but my occupation as an electrician sometimes causes me to 'do the math'....
       
      Now, as far as legalities go, it is against the rules of the NEC to connect a generator to a load greater than it can supply.  Well, since a wind turbine's output varies from none to full capacity on a regular basis, how do we rate it's capacity? 
       
      I am all for a way to get off the petrol habit, but I do know that there are many companies that will out and out lie to sell their product, especially if there is a weakness to target.
       
      73
       
      Mark K8MHZ 
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Linda
      Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:04
      Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Wind Turbine in a Box

      Excellent news story on mlive.com for those of us following
      alternative energy solutions:

      http://blog. mlive.com/ chronicle/ 2008/06/inventio n_brings_ wind_energy_ h.html

      It won't get you off the grid completely, but an interesting
      development and perhaps a fun toy for Field Day and other outback type
      operations.

      Linda, AB8QH


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG.
      Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM
    • Al Pepping
      Hi Mark Your comments aren t negative, they are realistic. And your math relating to the cost savings is right on the money. There is a lot more to going
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Mark
         
                Your comments aren't negative, they are realistic.  And your math relating to the cost savings is right on the money.  There is a lot more to going "off grid" than just purchasing a wind generator and hooking it up to your house circuit.   What the article doesn't tell you is you have to put the wind machine on a tower high enough to catch the wind. The tower has to be heavy duty as there are wind load factors. And we all know what towers are all about.  If you live in the country, this may not be a problem if you live in a windy area.  But if you live in the city you can easily see what can of worms you will open up, if it's even legal to put up a tower in the first place.   The article  also doesn't  tell you that the wind generator is only a part of the total system.  You will need batteries and lots of them to run the average home.  Then there is the inverter that converts the DC to AC.  The real "power" you use comes from banks of batteries, the solar or wind merely replaces it over a period of time. 
              The cost of the electricity we buy here in West Michigan these days is cheap...dirt cheap...and for the most part pretty reliable.  Price per kilowat hour here is actually one of best rates anywhere in the country.  You can go online and check rates all over  the US.  Going off grid is expensive, it requires maintenance, and not every location is suitable for it.  If you do it, you will probably not live enough years to recoup your investment.  But I play with solar and wind because it's neat.  It runs my radio station nicely and provides back up power for my pellet stove if the grid goes down in the winter.
            A much better way to generate electricity is with fuel cell technology.   This technology is even more costly than solar or wind and the deep pockets in the petroleum industry are doing every thing possible to squash efforts to make this technology viable.   I wonder if the new high tech Honda cars coming out in a year or so are fuel cell technology???        I highly recommend anyone interested in "off grid" technology to pick up a copy of Mike Bryce's book, "Emergency Power For Radio Communications".   It's available from the ARRL for 20 bux.  Must reading for those pondering taking the solar or wind plunge.  Mike tells it like it is.   If you come out to Field day, you will see solar technology earning bonus points for the test.  Silent, eco friendly, and reliable...as long as the sun shines. 
         
                                                                                                                                Al...KV8X  
         
        -------Original Message-------
         
        From: k8mhz@...
        Date: 6/18/2008 9:50:35 PM
        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Wind Turbine in a Box
         

        Call me skeptical, but....
         
        "The WindTronics 200-watt unit will take care of about 10 percent to 20 percent of a normal residential home's electrical needs."
         
        It would take six of these running at full capacity to operate a hand held hair dryer.  That is for a 1200 watt version.  I have seen these up to 1850 watts.
         
        200 watts at 120 volts is only 1.67 amps.  It would take just under 9 of these units to provide enough power to trip *one* 15 amp circuit breaker.
         
        At 10 cents a kilowatt hour this unit would provide a total of 2 cents an hour of payback.  That's 48 cents a day or $14.48 cents per month.....*if* running at full capacity 24/7 for the entire month.  Realistically, you would probably notice 4 or 5 dollars difference in your bill.
         
        If the claims of the people selling these windmills were even close to being true, the demand would be substantially more than the supply, which it is not.
         
        Considering a 100 dollar per month electricity bill we can translate that into an average of 1380 watts or about 11 amps.  This is an average and we usually see peaks of 60 or 70 amps and lulls of around 5 or so.  Remember, the windmill is only capable of 1.67 amps maximum.
         
        Sorry to sound so negative but my occupation as an electrician sometimes causes me to 'do the math'....
         
        Now, as far as legalities go, it is against the rules of the NEC to connect a generator to a load greater than it can supply.  Well, since a wind turbine's output varies from none to full capacity on a regular basis, how do we rate it's capacity? 
         
        I am all for a way to get off the petrol habit, but I do know that there are many companies that will out and out lie to sell their product, especially if there is a weakness to target.
         
        73
         
        Mark K8MHZ 
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Linda
        Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:04
        Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Wind Turbine in a Box

        Excellent news story on mlive.com for those of us following
        alternative energy solutions:

        http://blog. mlive.com/ chronicle/ 2008/06/inventio n_brings_ wind_energy_ h.html

        It won't get you off the grid completely, but an interesting
        development and perhaps a fun toy for Field Day and other outback type
        operations.

        Linda, AB8QH


        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG.
        Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM

         
        FREE  Animations for your email - By IncrediMail! Click Here!
      • Ross
        When I read this in the paper last night, I did some quick math. My electric bill is about $35/month. At a 20% savings, the payback is 23 years. My brother
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          When I read this in the paper last night, I did some quick math. My
          electric bill is about $35/month. At a 20% savings, the payback is 23
          years.

          My brother installed a system for Y2K. It has more power, batteries,
          inverters, and is connected to the grid. When the generator produces
          more power than he is using, he sells it back to CE for about a tenth
          of what they charge. Nice markup on their part.

          I asked him a while back about his return on investment and he declined
          to tell me, that says how bad it is.

          I think GVSU is going after the third world market, so people can
          charge up their iPods.

          RossN8GMY
        • Linda
          Geez...sorry I brought it up! Won t happen again.
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Geez...sorry I brought it up! Won't happen again.
          • k8mhz@k8mhz.com
            Hi Linda, Actually, you need to be thanked for posting the information you got about wind turbines. Please realize that the scrutinization of an article is to
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Linda,
               
              Actually, you need to be thanked for posting the information you got about wind turbines.  Please realize that the scrutinization of an article is to be expected and that is a *plus*!  Also realize that we are scritinzing the article, not the poster.  The feedback you get from the peanut gallery here is going to be (for the most part) well researched.  For or against a claim, the research, experience and opinions of the hundred or so hams on this reflector is always worth the read and on occasion can forwarn us of false claims, and as such may save us some money.
               
              I, for one, have always wondered how much electricity could be garnered from a home brew windmill.  Would they be able to be 'piggy backed' to produce current levels in excess of any indivual generator (or alternator as the case may be).
               
              Again, thanks and the best of 73
               
              Mark K8MHZ
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Linda
              Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 01:28
              Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Wind Turbine in a Box

              Geez...sorry I brought it up! Won't happen again.


              No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG.
              Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM
            • Richards
              Don t feel bad. Turns out to be an excellent discussion. It just proves that one has to do the math, and really figure out what is wheat and what is chaff
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Don't feel bad. Turns out to be an excellent discussion. It just
                proves that one has to do the math, and really figure out what is
                wheat and what is chaff before embarking on any project.

                Good lessons. Obviously some tools are better than others, and
                the analysis of knowing how to discern which is what is worthwhile.

                Thanks. // Richards - K8JHR //
                =======================================================

                Linda wrote:
                > Geez...sorry I brought it up! Won't happen again.
                >
                > ------------------------------------

                .
              • (Skip) K8RRA
                YUP Mark I agree -- thanks Linda. ... I for two, have long wondered if our consumption habits would ever change to support this technology. We hams use this
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  YUP Mark I agree -- thanks Linda.

                  On Thu, 2008-06-19 at 14:32 -0400, k8mhz@... wrote:
                  >
                  > I, for one, have always wondered how much electricity could be
                  > garnered from a home brew windmill. Would they be able to be 'piggy
                  > backed' to produce current levels in excess of any indivual generator
                  > (or alternator as the case may be).
                  I for two, have long wondered if our consumption habits would ever
                  change to support this technology. We hams use this kind of stuff to
                  power repeaters on hill-tops, not home sites with air conditioning.
                  Cruising sailors use it to power GPS & nav lights but never turn the
                  prop. Mark your math is right, and yes it will stall before generating
                  tripping current for circuit breakers (mostly), but no it just doesn't
                  fit the model. We are stuck with gas gens in the back yard -- aarrggg.

                  As I've read this stuff about applying small wind turbines in home use
                  I've wondered what kind of scam was afoot. Viewed from the utility,
                  local gen is more pain than promise. The cost of tuning wind power into
                  the standard 120vac is a huge percentage of the total. So look for
                  stuff that could run sometimes when the wind is blowing, on variable
                  voltage, probably DC, nor require many watts. Not much comes to mind
                  does it?

                  So we are back to putting repeaters and batteries on windy hill tops.
                  Now we can morph into a positive review? Windy hills & windy hams --
                  not a bad match up. But it won't sell many. :-)


                  73
                  de [George (Skip) VerDuin] K8RRA k
                • Jim KC8PCJ
                  Linda, Please don t ever feel sorry about bring these things up. It was a learning experience for many. and myself I thing more things on the order of GREEN
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Linda, Please don't ever feel sorry about bring these things up. It was a learning experience for many. and myself I thing more things on the order of GREEN should be brought up, good or bad. The reflector should be used more for discussion on things like this and radio of course. Most of what I see on the reflector is not very thought provoking.
                    Please continue with things you find as far as I am concerned.
                     
                    Jim.
                    KC8PCJ
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Linda
                    Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:28 PM
                    Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Wind Turbine in a Box

                    Geez...sorry I brought it up! Won't happen again.

                  • Jim KC8PCJ
                    Here is a link to building your own 10 wind mill. At 10 MPH wind generates 100 watts. expected at 25 MPH to generate 700 watts
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Here is a link to building your own 10' wind mill. At 10 MPH wind generates 100 watts. expected at 25 MPH to generate 700 watts
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      Many other projects at www.otherpower.com
                       
                      Check out there test vehicle.
                       
                      240 Windmill

                    • kc8hxo
                      Yeah... Saw this one, and did not need to do any math. Just laughed out loud. I guess they know there s one born every minute . FYI, NOARC has run ALL of the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 20, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yeah... Saw this one, and did not need to do any math. Just laughed
                        out loud. I guess they know "there's one born every minute".

                        FYI, NOARC has run ALL of the stations for the last 2 Field Days on
                        Solar charged batteries. 100W power, not QRP. NO GAS GENERATOR at all.
                        Man, is the QUIET ever nice!! Works well. Stop in and visit us at
                        Coast Guard Park in Ferrysburg!

                        Greg, KC8HXO
                      • Bill
                        While driving past Grand Valley s building in Muskegon I see that they have added a wind generator that looks like a lolly pop. A neighbor has one of these
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 22, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          While driving past Grand Valley's building in Muskegon I see that they
                          have added a wind generator that looks like a lolly pop. A neighbor
                          has one of these wind turbines and I've been wondering if they really
                          work anywhere near as advertised. GVSU is in the energy "business"
                          and way out there trying new things. I'm guessing that if I were to
                          drop into their facility why would they not give me a straight answer
                          to the question, "How much energy do these things generate?"

                          I'm glad that some folks have "done the math" and shown a flaw in the
                          logic of the "snake oil" salesmen. Thank you.

                          We can all wonder at the possibility. And we can encourage each
                          other's dreams. Certainly it is a challenge to take your home off the
                          grid. And certainly it is a worthy challenge. Don't squish a dream.
                          Add a little reality. Energy costs, like gasoline, (aren't they the
                          same thing?) (it's just politically correct to jump on the gas price
                          band wagon) will certainly only go higher. Find a way to help the
                          monthly budget.

                          Bill, AB8SC
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.