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Re: [WestMichiganHams] Technicality?

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  • StraitMD4@comcast.net
    I haven t had a conventional land line phone in over 2 years . 1500 minutes with no long distance charges for 45 dollars . I talk to California and Kansas for
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 3, 2006
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      I haven't had a conventional land line phone in over 2 years . 1500 minutes with no long distance charges for 45 dollars .  I talk to California and Kansas for at least 10 hours a month . Try that on a land line for 45 dollars .
        Cheaper than a land line phone .
       
       there are a lot of grey areas in this rule though.
       
                                                              KD8BIG
       
      -------------- Original message --------------
      From: "Chris Schulte" <ab8wo2006@...>

      Considering that a lot of people are now switching from their conventional land line to a cellular phone for their primary phone needs, I don't think that it would be a problem.  It is something to think about, and possibly go so far as to ask someone on the commission for clearification of the question. 
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 2:31 PM
      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Technicality?

      Chris,
       
      Sending TO a pager is different, no other form of radio transmission is being re-broadcast via amateur radio unless it was done using a radio telephone.
       
      So, if it is OK to use a phone patch to re-broadcast cellular phones, would it then be OK to have a repeater in which the input was a cellular phone?
       
      See where I am concerned?
       
      If it is NOT OK to use a cellular phone as a repeater input it is also NOT OK to use them on a phone patch as the exact same retransmission is suspect, just connected differently.
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 19:06
      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Technicality?

      I think that the section is more geared toward retransmitions of broadcasts and music, not so much phone patches, besides, how are we to know if the person that we are calling is using a chordless phone or not?  With a cell phone, it's one thing because you can almost tell by the number, but we can't tell someone that if they see the repeater number come up on the caller ID to not answer with their chordless.  If nothing else, it's a grey area, but I don't think anyone is going to really get bent out of shape for using an autopatch to call someone on a cell phone, or talking to someone with a chordless phone. 
       
      If we really want to split hairs, wouldn't it then be illegal to call a pager using the repeater's autopatch as well? 
      73
      Chris
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 1:39 PM
      Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Technicality?

      Please read the section below and offer up your take on whether or not using a cell (radio) phone to communicate on a phone patch is legal or not.  I guess cordless (radio) phones would also be suspect if the provision were to be followed to the letter.
       
      From: ���97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

      (e) No station shall retransmit programs or signals emanating from
      any type of radio station other than an amateur station, except
      propagation and weather forecast information intended for use by the
      general public and originated from United States Government stations
      and communications, including incidental music, originating on
      United States Government frequencies between a space shuttle and its
      associated Earth stations. Prior approval for shuttle
      retransmissions must be obtained from the National Aeronautics and
      Space Administration. Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive
      use of amateur operators. Propagation, weather forecasts,
      and shuttle retransmissions may not be conducted on a regular basis,
      but only occasionally, as an incident of normal amateur radio
      communications.
      ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---
       
      This section is referred to when talks of using ACU devices, such as Muskegon's Motorola ACU-1000,  EchoStation and other ACUs (Audio Combining Units) but if followed to the letter prohibits cordless and cellular telephone re-transmissions as well.


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    • Laryn Lohman
      ... is being re-broadcast via amateur radio unless it was done using a radio telephone. ... phones, would it then be OK to have a repeater in which the input
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 3, 2006
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        --- In WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:
        >
        > Chris,
        >
        > Sending TO a pager is different, no other form of radio transmission
        is being re-broadcast via amateur radio unless it was done using a
        radio telephone.
        >
        > So, if it is OK to use a phone patch to re-broadcast cellular
        phones, would it then be OK to have a repeater in which the input was
        a cellular phone?
        >
        > See where I am concerned?

        No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
        you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
        possible.


        > If it is NOT OK to use a cellular phone as a repeater input it is
        also NOT OK to use them on a phone patch as the exact same
        retransmission is suspect, just connected differently.


        I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
        use RF is incidental to their operation, and would not fall under an
        interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
        other services.

        Good discussion though.

        Laryn K8TVZ
      • k8mhz@k8mhz.com
        No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So you can t use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically possible. It is
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 3, 2006
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          "No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
          you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
          possible."
           
          It is technically possible with ACUs.  Reverse phone patches using land lines are and have been legal for some time.  If the phone is cellular instead of a land line it is still a reverse phone patch but in actuality is a re-transmission of a non-amateur frequency.  Both the Motorola ACU-1000 and a properly set up EchoStation repeater have the capability of re-transmitting ANY audio input to an amateur frequency, or any frequency that there is a transmitter for.  EchoStation can be set up with a cell phone as a receiver and a ham rig as a transmitter so the cell # could be called and the received audio is sent out over the transmitter.  EchoLink uses many frequencies via the Internet in the same manner.   This seems like a breech of the law, not just to me,  but others as well.  NOT to be taken that this use is a travesty, but more to be taken as a need to address Part 97's failure to keep up with the times.
           
          "I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
          use RF is incidental to their operation, and would not fall under an
          interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
          other services."
           
          The only allowance for incidentals is clearly outlined and pertains to things such as music on the ISS for instance.  Nowhere in Part 97 is there an exception for devices that use RF 'incidental to their operation',  which I don't think is the case for cell phones.  Cell phones are radio phones and the radio part is the primary function of those devices, not merely incidental.
           
          The re-transmission exclusion bears no written exceptions and leaves little room for interpretation.  Without an exception for cellular or cordless phones it is against the ruling of 97.113. 
           
          If I missed something in other sections of Part 97 please point them out to me.
           
          I think this is the case of the law not keeping up with the technology.
           
          73,
           
          Mark K8MHZ
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 22:06
          Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

          --- In WestMichiganHams@ yahoogroups. com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:
          >
          > Chris,
          >
          > Sending TO a pager is different, no other form of radio transmission
          is being re-broadcast via amateur radio unless it was done using a
          radio telephone.
          >
          > So, if it is OK to use a phone patch to re-broadcast cellular
          phones, would it then be OK to have a repeater in which the input was
          a cellular phone?
          >
          > See where I am concerned?

          No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
          you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
          possible.

          > If it is NOT OK to use a cellular phone as a repeater input it is
          also NOT OK to use them on a phone patch as the exact same
          retransmission is suspect, just connected differently.

          I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
          use RF is incidental to their operation, and would not fall under an
          interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
          other services.

          Good discussion though.

          Laryn K8TVZ


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        • StraitMD4@comcast.net
          Who operates / owns 88.7-106.5 MHz ? I have heard phone conversations there before . As well with the UHF standard and T band . UHF standard = 450-470 MHz
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 3, 2006
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            Who operates / owns 88.7-106.5 MHz ? I have heard phone conversations there before . As well with the UHF standard and "T" band .
             
            UHF standard = 450-470 MHz
            UHF "T" band = 470-512 MHz
             
                                                               KD8BIG
             
            -------------- Original message --------------
            From: <k8mhz@...>

            "No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
            you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
            possible."
             
            It is technically possible with ACUs.  Reverse phone patches using land lines are and have been legal for some time.  If the phone is cellular instead of a land line it is still a reverse phone patch but in actuality is a re-transmission of a non-amateur frequency.  Both the Motorola ACU-1000 and a properly set up EchoStation repeater have the capability of re-transmitting ANY audio input to an amateur frequency, or any frequency that there is a transmitter for.  EchoStation can be set up with a cell phone as a receiver and a ham rig as a transmitter so the cell # could be called and the received audio is sent out over the transmitter.  EchoLink uses many frequencies via the Internet in the same manner.   This seems like a breech of the law, not just to me,  but others as well.  NOT to be taken that this use is a travesty, but more to be taken as a need to address Part 97's failure to keep up with the times.< /FONT>
             
            "I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
            use RF is incidental to their operation, and would not fall under an
            interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
            other services."
             
            The only allowance for incidentals is clearly outlined and pertains to things such as music on the ISS for instance.  Nowhere in Part 97 is there an exception for devices that use RF 'incidental to their operation',  which I don't think is the case for cell phones.  Cell phones are radio phones and the radio part is the primary function of those devices, not merely incidental.
             
            The re-transmission exclusion bears no written exceptions and leaves little room for interpretation.  Without an exception for cellular or cordless phones it is against the ruling of 97.113. 
             
            If I missed something in other sections of Part 97 please point them out to me.
             
            I think this is the case of the law not keeping up with the technology.
             
            73,
             
            Mark K8MHZ
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 22:06
            Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

            --- In WestMichiganHams@ yahoogroups. com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:
            >
            > Chris,
            >
            > Sending TO a pager is different, no other form of radio transmission
            is being re-broadcast via amateur radio unless it was done using a
            radio telephone.
            >
            > So, if it is OK to use a phone patch to re-broadcast cellular
            phones, would it then be OK to have a repeater in which the input was
            a cellular phone?
            >
            > See where I am concerned?

            No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
            you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
            possible.

            > If it is NOT OK to use a cellular phone as a repeater input it is
            also NOT OK to use them on a phone patch as the exact same
            retransmission is suspect, just connected differently.

            I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
            use RF is inci dental to their operation, and would not fall under an
            interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
            other services.

            Good discussion though.

            Laryn K8TVZ


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          • jason mackay
            Hi All, I have been reading these messages but don t understand how this help or hurts us. Please help simplify all this stuff. Thanks KC8OVS ... Get your
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 3, 2006
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              Hi All,  I have been reading these messages but don't understand how this help or hurts us.  Please help simplify all this stuff.  Thanks KC8OVS


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            • k8mhz@k8mhz.com
              FM broadcast is 88.0 to 108.0. They don t operate by the same rules we do. Attached is a great frequency chart. Adobe Acrobat Reader required. 73, Mark K8MHZ
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 3, 2006
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                FM broadcast is 88.0 to 108.0.  They don't operate by the same rules we do.
                 
                Attached is a great frequency chart.  Adobe Acrobat Reader required.
                 
                73,
                 
                Mark K8MHZ
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 00:59
                Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                Who operates / owns 88.7-106.5 MHz ? I have heard phone conversations there before . As well with the UHF standard and "T" band .
                 
                UHF standard = 450-470 MHz
                UHF "T" band = 470-512 MHz
                 
                                                                   KD8BIG
                 
                ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
                From: <k8mhz@k8mhz. com>

                "No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
                you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
                possible."
                 
                It is technically possible with ACUs.  Reverse phone patches using land lines are and have been legal for some time.  If the phone is cellular instead of a land line it is still a reverse phone patch but in actuality is a re-transmission of a non-amateur frequency.  Both the Motorola ACU-1000 and a properly set up EchoStation repeater have the capability of re-transmitting ANY audio input to an amateur frequency, or any frequency that there is a transmitter for.  EchoStation can be set up with a cell phone as a receiver and a ham rig as a transmitter so the cell # could be called and the received audio is sent out over the transmitter.  EchoLink uses many frequencies via the Internet in the same manner.   This seems like a breech of the law, not just to me,  but others as well.  NOT to be taken that this use is a travesty, but more to be taken as a need to address Part 97's failure to keep up with the times. /FONT>
                 
                "I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
                use RF is incidental to their operation, and would not fall under an
                interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
                other services."
                 
                The only allowance for incidentals is clearly outlined and pertains to things such as music on the ISS for instance.  Nowhere in Part 97 is there an exception for devices that use RF 'incidental to their operation',  which I don't think is the case for cell phones.  Cell phones are radio phones and the radio part is the primary function of those devices, not merely incidental.
                 
                The re-transmission exclusion bears no written exceptions and leaves little room for interpretation.  Without an exception for cellular or cordless phones it is against the ruling of 97.113. 
                 
                If I missed something in other sections of Part 97 please point them out to me.
                 
                I think this is the case of the law not keeping up with the technology.
                 
                73,
                 
                Mark K8MHZ
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 22:06
                Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                --- In WestMichiganHams@ yahoogroups. com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:
                >
                > Chris,
                >
                > Sending TO a pager is different, no other form of radio transmission
                is being re-broadcast via amateur radio unless it was done using a
                radio telephone.
                >
                > So, if it is OK to use a phone patch to re-broadcast cellular
                phones, would it then be OK to have a repeater in which the input was
                a cellular phone?
                >
                > See where I am concerned?

                No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
                you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
                possible.

                > If it is NOT OK to use a cellular phone as a repeater input it is
                also NOT OK to use them on a phone patch as the exact same
                retransmission is suspect, just connected differently.

                I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
                use RF is inci dental to their operation, and would not fall under an
                interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
                other services.

                Good discussion though.

                Laryn K8TVZ


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              • Laryn Lohman
                ... What is an ACU? ... to things such as music on the ISS for instance. Nowhere in Part 97 is there an exception for devices that use RF incidental to their
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 3, 2006
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                  >
                  > "No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
                  > you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
                  > possible."
                  >
                  > It is technically possible with ACUs.

                  What is an ACU?


                  > "I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
                  > use RF is incidental to their operation, and would not fall under an
                  > interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
                  > other services."
                  >
                  > The only allowance for incidentals is clearly outlined and pertains
                  to things such as music on the ISS for instance. Nowhere in Part 97
                  is there an exception for devices that use RF 'incidental to their
                  operation', which I don't think is the case for cell phones. Cell
                  phones are radio phones and the radio part is the primary function of
                  those devices, not merely incidental.
                  >
                  > The re-transmission exclusion bears no written exceptions and leaves
                  little room for interpretation. Without an exception for cellular or
                  cordless phones it is against the ruling of 97.113.

                  OK Mark, how about microwave hops within the landline telephone
                  system? I would submit that these fall into the same category as the
                  cordless in your house, or cellphone RF link. If a cellphone is
                  illegal in a phone patch, then so is the microwave link. That would
                  make a great many patches illegal going back to the first day of using
                  microwave links for landlines, including of course domestic and
                  international phone patches. Then, since we cannot always know when
                  microwave is involved in ANY phone call, we must stop all patches.

                  Laryn K8TVZ
                • kc8dei
                  ... Thanks for pointing this out. I need to go buy a new keyboard before next week s MFSK net, as my current keyboard is wireless. Clearly, I m
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 3, 2006
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                    --- In WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:

                    > The only allowance for incidentals is clearly outlined and pertains
                    > to things such as music on the ISS for instance. Nowhere in Part 97
                    > is there an exception for devices that use RF 'incidental to their
                    > operation', which I don't think is the case for cell phones. Cell
                    > phones are radio phones and the radio part is the primary function of
                    > those devices, not merely incidental.
                    >
                    > The re-transmission exclusion bears no written exceptions and leaves
                    > little room for interpretation. Without an exception for cellular or
                    > cordless phones it is against the ruling of 97.113.

                    Thanks for pointing this out. I need to go buy a new keyboard before
                    next week's MFSK net, as my current keyboard is wireless. Clearly,
                    I'm retransmitting its 27MHz signal on the lower end of the 2m band,
                    which goes against the rules.

                    Also, somebody might want to inform the HSMM guys of this rule. After
                    all, they're using off-the-shelf wireless networking equipment under
                    part 97, rather than part 15, but how can they guarantee that the
                    packets their equipment fowards _never_ crossed through wireless
                    networking equipment operating under Part 15?

                    The idea that passing through the ether outside the bounds of Part 97
                    somehow poisons a signal so that it can never be legally transmitted
                    on an amateur frequency just doesn't pass the sniff test. To me, this
                    seems like nothing more than FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) rather
                    than a real problem (unless, of course, there is some reason to
                    believe the FCC actually interprets their rule this way).

                    Mark Moss, KC8DEI
                  • Al Pepping
                    If you have a cell phone that is working, why would you use a phone patch???? Kinda like taking a shower with your socks on. But in an emergency use of
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 4, 2006
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                      If you have a cell phone that is working, why would you use a phone patch????   Kinda like taking a shower with your socks on.  
                       
                      But in an "emergency"  use of any radio on any frequency is permitted, just make sure you know the meaning of "emergency".  KV8X 
                       
                      -------Original Message-------
                       
                      From: k8mhz@...
                      Date: 11/03/06 13:53:25
                      Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Technicality?
                       
                      Please read the section below and offer up your take on whether or not using a cell (radio) phone to communicate on a phone patch is legal or not.  I guess cordless (radio) phones would also be suspect if the provision were to be followed to the letter.
                       
                      From: §97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

                      (e) No station shall retransmit programs or signals emanating from
                      any type of radio station other than an amateur station, except
                      propagation and weather forecast information intended for use by the
                      general public and originated from United States Government stations
                      and communications, including incidental music, originating on
                      United States Government frequencies between a space shuttle and its
                      associated Earth stations. Prior approval for shuttle
                      retransmissions must be obtained from the National Aeronautics and
                      Space Administration. Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive
                      use of amateur operators. Propagation, weather forecasts,
                      and shuttle retransmissions may not be conducted on a regular basis,
                      but only occasionally, as an incident of normal amateur radio
                      communications.
                      ------------------------------------------
                       
                      This section is referred to when talks of using ACU devices, such as Muskegon's Motorola ACU-1000,  EchoStation and other ACUs (Audio Combining Units) but if followed to the letter prohibits cordless and cellular telephone re-transmissions as well.

                       
                    • k8mhz@k8mhz.com
                      What is an ACU? ACU stands for Audio Combining Unit. What it does is takes the audio from any device as an input and outputs it to a transmitter. The
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 4, 2006
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                        "What is an ACU?"
                         
                        ACU stands for Audio Combining Unit.  What it does is takes the audio from any device as an input and outputs it to a transmitter.  The ACU-1000 at 27 grand a pop or so is the top of the line and EchoStation is a 10 or 20 dollar program that enables a computer with a sound card to function in a similar manner.
                         
                        "OK Mark, how about microwave hops within the landline telephone
                        system?"
                         
                        I have questioned that since I first read 97.113.  When cell phones came on the scene I further questioned it.  Now with ACUs there may be reason to get the FCC to give us an opinion.  If phones such as cells and microwave assisted land lines don't violate 97.113 how do cell phones used as an input device in an ACU violate the same rule?  What is the difference, as far as the law goes, WHERE the cell phone is in the loop?  97.113 only addresses the re-transmission of non-amateur frequencies.
                         
                        "Hi All,  I have been reading these messages but don't understand how this help or hurts us.  Please help simplify all this stuff.  Thanks KC8OVS"
                         
                        The issue pertains to the design of an ACU used as an emergency repeater.  I have been experimenting with EchoStation.  I have also had the privilege of seeing the ACU-1000 in action.  ACUs are perfect for emergency comms as they are the ultimate interoperability devices.  They enable any form of comms to interface with any other form.  With an ACU it is possible to talk on a Nextel and be heard on a commercial 2-way radio or have a police frequency connected to a fire frequency, or one fire service to another.  The possibilities are endless.  I saw this with my own eyes.  Playing with EchoStation I realized that I had the same capability using an old scanner, a 40 dollar mobile rig, a cheap laptop and a homebrew interface.  Beats spending 27 grand, no?
                         
                        "If you have a cell phone that is working, why would you use a phone patch????"
                         
                        More likely would be the issue of calling a cell phone using a phone patch.
                         
                        The question that comes to my mind is the definition of a radio station.  The rule states "No station shall retransmit programs or signals emanating from
                        any type of radio station other than an amateur station".  Is a cell phone a 'radio station?'  If not, then I should be able to set up a reverse phone patch in the field using a cell phone and be able to connect to it anywhere in the world by calling a phone number.  What about FRS and GMRS radios, are they 'radio stations'?  Can I legally use an FRS or a GMRS radio as an input?  This would be great for SAR where FRS is used on the ground and amateur freqs are used for command.  A licensed control operator at the transmitter would enable legal 3rd party traffic.
                         
                        I sent off a question to the FCC about clarification of the rule.  I will post their response when I get it.  (They are slow, please be patient.)
                         
                        Check out the link in the message that K8COP sent about the Raytheon ACU.
                         
                        73,
                         
                        Mark K8MHZ
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 04:16
                        Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?


                        >
                        > "No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
                        > you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
                        > possible."
                        >
                        > It is technically possible with ACUs.

                        What is an ACU?

                        > "I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
                        > use RF is incidental to their operation, and would not fall under an
                        > interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
                        > other services."
                        >
                        > The only allowance for incidentals is clearly outlined and pertains
                        to things such as music on the ISS for instance. Nowhere in Part 97
                        is there an exception for devices that use RF 'incidental to their
                        operation', which I don't think is the case for cell phones. Cell
                        phones are radio phones and the radio part is the primary function of
                        those devices, not merely incidental.
                        >
                        > The re-transmission exclusion bears no written exceptions and leaves
                        little room for interpretation. Without an exception for cellular or
                        cordless phones it is against the ruling of 97.113.

                        OK Mark, how about microwave hops within the landline telephone
                        system? I would submit that these fall into the same category as the
                        cordless in your house, or cellphone RF link. If a cellphone is
                        illegal in a phone patch, then so is the microwave link. That would
                        make a great many patches illegal going back to the first day of using
                        microwave links for landlines, including of course domestic and
                        international phone patches. Then, since we cannot always know when
                        microwave is involved in ANY phone call, we must stop all patches.

                        Laryn K8TVZ


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                      • Laryn Lohman
                        ... OK, I just wasn t familiar with the particular model ACU that you referenced. There is one of these units in the Ottawa CO. comm. trailer. However, I
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 4, 2006
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                          --- In WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > "What is an ACU?"

                          OK, I just wasn't familiar with the particular model "ACU" that you
                          referenced. There is one of these units in the Ottawa CO. comm.
                          trailer. However, I don't think these connect DIRECTLY to a
                          cellphone, do they? In other words, I can't walk up to one of these
                          and use my cellphone to talk to the sheriff's department, for example.
                          There is no RF connection inherent within these units that would
                          allow my cellphone to receive service, authentication, etc. That can
                          be done only by my carrier's system. The ACU will connect to the PBX
                          in the trailer, and then the outside world via copper, however.


                          > "OK Mark, how about microwave hops within the landline telephone
                          > system?"
                          >
                          > I have questioned that since I first read 97.113. When cell phones
                          came on the scene I further questioned it. Now with ACUs there may be
                          reason to get the FCC to give us an opinion. If phones such as cells
                          and microwave assisted land lines don't violate 97.113 how do cell
                          phones used as an input device in an ACU violate the same rule?


                          My point EXACTLY. We're beating a dog that doesn't exist. If 97.113
                          is out of date now, it NEVER was up to date. As I posted earlier,
                          microwave landline links have been used for what, 60+ years now? Part
                          97 has been re-written several times in that period. If the FCC had
                          any intention of including microwave links in the rule as applied,
                          they would have stated so way back then. As another poster succinctly
                          stated, perhaps I need to get rid of my wireless keyboard?? I don't
                          think so. That would be absurd.

                          I still think the word "incidental" applies here. Cellphones,
                          wireless keys, WiFi systems, landline microwave links, etc., are not
                          Radio Stations. They use RF only as a part of their infrastructure,
                          incidental to their normal operation. The spirit of this rule has
                          always applied to radio services such as police, fire, broadcasters,
                          Joe Plumber's two way system, etc.

                          Think about the term "wireline" in Part 97, I don't remember which
                          particular rule right now. As far as the FCC is concerned, this term
                          does not necessarily mean "copper". If a segment of the "wireline"
                          control system for an Amateur Station, for example, happens to be
                          fiber, or microwave, it is STILL a "wireline".

                          Laryn K8TVZ
                        • k8mhz@k8mhz.com
                          In other words, I can t walk up to one of these and use my cellphone to talk to the sheriff s department, for example. That is exactly what you can do. All
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 4, 2006
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                            "In other words, I can't walk up to one of these
                            and use my cellphone to talk to the sheriff's department, for example."
                             
                            That is exactly what you can do.
                             
                            All it takes is a cable from the earphone of ANY device, even a telephone, connected to the audio input of an ACU.  A VOX feature in the computer activates the PTT of the transmitter.  All the devices are audio connected. The line out of the soundcard is impedance matched to the mic of the transmitting device or devices.  With the ACU-1000 as many devices as there are ports for can be connected.  The devices that can talk to one and other are connected by dragging and dropping icons on the computer screen, or sending control tones from DTMF capable devices.  With EchoStation the connections must be made by external switching means but can accomplish almost the same thing, with fewer bells and whistles.
                             
                            An example of use is to have a cell phone plugged into an ACU and set to auto answer and auto disconnect.  A simple direct cable for the RX and an impedance matching transformer for the TX is all that is needed.  The com port on the computer fires an opto-coupler that turns the PTT on and off.  The cell phone would not need to be triggered as it is full duplex, it only has to be connected to the line in and line out.  So, the cell # could be called and the audio output would be re-transmitted to any radio desired and vice-versa.  The ACU-1000 comes equipped with full duplex capabilities whereas it would take two EchoStation programs and two sound cards to do the same thing, but could be done.
                             
                            Is it legal?  To me, it is as legal as using a cell phone on a phone patch.  I gather you see it the same way?
                             
                            Think of how nice it would be for hobby use.  Some older equipment, an old cell phone with a cheap (prepay?) service connected to your 2 meter rig so you could call your ACU from anywhere and be connected to the repeater.  EchoStation is set up for remote control and can be turned off by hitting a key, such as the # key.  It also has a fail safe feature that can be employed which disconnects the repeater under certain failure circumstances.
                             
                            This is kind of like a cross band repeater, only using cellular SHF instead of UHF.
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 16:50
                            Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                            --- In WestMichiganHams@ yahoogroups. com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > "What is an ACU?"

                            OK, I just wasn't familiar with the particular model "ACU" that you
                            referenced. There is one of these units in the Ottawa CO. comm.
                            trailer. However, I don't think these connect DIRECTLY to a
                            cellphone, do they? In other words, I can't walk up to one of these
                            and use my cellphone to talk to the sheriff's department, for example.
                            There is no RF connection inherent within these units that would
                            allow my cellphone to receive service, authentication, etc. That can
                            be done only by my carrier's system. The ACU will connect to the PBX
                            in the trailer, and then the outside world via copper, however.

                            > "OK Mark, how about microwave hops within the landline telephone
                            > system?"
                            >
                            > I have questioned that since I first read 97.113. When cell phones
                            came on the scene I further questioned it. Now with ACUs there may be
                            reason to get the FCC to give us an opinion. If phones such as cells
                            and microwave assisted land lines don't violate 97.113 how do cell
                            phones used as an input device in an ACU violate the same rule?


                            My point EXACTLY. We're beating a dog that doesn't exist. If 97.113
                            is out of date now, it NEVER was up to date. As I posted earlier,
                            microwave landline links have been used for what, 60+ years now? Part
                            97 has been re-written several times in that period. If the FCC had
                            any intention of including microwave links in the rule as applied,
                            they would have stated so way back then. As another poster succinctly
                            stated, perhaps I need to get rid of my wireless keyboard?? I don't
                            think so. That would be absurd.

                            I still think the word "incidental" applies here. Cellphones,
                            wireless keys, WiFi systems, landline microwave links, etc., are not
                            Radio Stations. They use RF only as a part of their infrastructure,
                            incidental to their normal operation. The spirit of this rule has
                            always applied to radio services such as police, fire, broadcasters,
                            Joe Plumber's two way system, etc.

                            Think about the term "wireline" in Part 97, I don't remember which
                            particular rule right now. As far as the FCC is concerned, this term
                            does not necessarily mean "copper". If a segment of the "wireline"
                            control system for an Amateur Station, for example, happens to be
                            fiber, or microwave, it is STILL a "wireline".

                            Laryn K8TVZ


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                          • Andrew Young
                            I think this issue is one of splitting hairs. A phone patch is a connection to the telephone system. How the audio gets to the phone jack is really not of
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 4, 2006
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                              I think this issue is one of splitting hairs.  A phone patch is a connection to the telephone system.  How the audio gets to the phone jack is really not of much importance to us.  We have no control beyond that telephone jack at the repeater.
                               
                              You could reverse-engineer systems all day if you want to find problems.  How about Echolink on a WI FI connection?
                               
                              Retransmit police/TV/broadcast/MURS/FRS frequencies through a crossbander?  That's what it prohibits if you think about it in a reasonable manner.
                               
                              Actually, I think it's only illegal if you have a flashing yellow light attached to the antenna of the cell phone.
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:45 PM
                              Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?


                              Hi All,  I have been reading these messages but don't understand how this help or hurts us.  Please help simplify all this stuff.  Thanks KC8OVS


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                            • k8mhz@k8mhz.com
                              Actually, I think it s only illegal if you have a flashing yellow light attached to the antenna of the cell phone. Only in a vehicle not engaged in snow or
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 4, 2006
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                                "Actually, I think it's only illegal if you have a flashing yellow light attached to the antenna of the cell phone."
                                 
                                Only in a vehicle not engaged in snow or trash removal.....
                                 
                                Anyway, what I am trying to establish is if a device using a cell phone as a repeater input is in violation of Part 97 or not.
                                 
                                If it is not (and it is as I read the law) then where is the exception that allows the other re-transmissions, such as those used in EchoLink, regular phone lines, etc.  WiFi, if used on the first 6 channels, is an amateur band (in the 2.4 GHz range).  Yes, the law is obvious in some cases, like TV, MURS, police, etc.  Not so obvious when telephones come into play.
                                 
                                Maybe in a few months the FCC will answer my question.   Or sooner....it could happen.
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 22:29
                                Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                                I think this issue is one of splitting hairs.  A phone patch is a connection to the telephone system.  How the audio gets to the phone jack is really not of much importance to us.  We have no control beyond that telephone jack at the repeater.
                                 
                                You could reverse-engineer systems all day if you want to find problems.  How about Echolink on a WI FI connection?
                                 
                                Retransmit police/TV/broadcast /MURS/FRS frequencies through a crossbander?  That's what it prohibits if you think about it in a reasonable manner.
                                 
                                Actually, I think it's only illegal if you have a flashing yellow light attached to the antenna of the cell phone.
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:45 PM
                                Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?


                                Hi All,  I have been reading these messages but don't understand how this help or hurts us.  Please help simplify all this stuff.  Thanks KC8OVS


                                Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the new Yahoo.com


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                              • Laryn Lohman
                                ... phone as a repeater input is in violation of Part 97 or not. ... exception that allows the other re-transmissions, such as those used in EchoLink, regular
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 4, 2006
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                                  --- In WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:


                                  > Anyway, what I am trying to establish is if a device using a cell
                                  phone as a repeater input is in violation of Part 97 or not.
                                  >
                                  > If it is not (and it is as I read the law) then where is the
                                  exception that allows the other re-transmissions, such as those used
                                  in EchoLink, regular phone lines, etc.

                                  How was 97.113 ever written into the rules if it instantly indicts
                                  hundreds of hams every day for being illegal in their operations? In
                                  other words, if no other "radio station" can be a part of any amateur
                                  transmission, then each and every autopatch could be illegal. Yet no
                                  ham has ever been fined, I'm quite sure, for simply initiating and
                                  participating in a patch, with the FCC referring to 97.113, just
                                  because there was a microwave link in the audio path somewhere. And
                                  for 6+ decades! Please clarify for me.

                                  Laryn K8TVZ
                                • k8mhz@k8mhz.com
                                  I am awaiting said clarification from the FCC. Or I could just build the TX input repeater and see what is said, using the already allowed re-transmissions as
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 5, 2006
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                                    I am awaiting said clarification from the FCC.  Or I could just build the TX input repeater and see what is said, using the already allowed re-transmissions as a precedent.
                                     
                                    Probably 97.113 was written before there were such services, perhaps even before phone patches.
                                     
                                    If I can get any info that will help I will surely post it here. 
                                     
                                    As I said earlier, I think this is a case of the law not keeping up with technology.
                                     
                                    73 
                                     
                                    Mark
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 04:53
                                    Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                                    --- In WestMichiganHams@ yahoogroups. com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:

                                    > Anyway, what I am trying to establish is if a device using a cell
                                    phone as a repeater input is in violation of Part 97 or not.
                                    >
                                    > If it is not (and it is as I read the law) then where is the
                                    exception that allows the other re-transmissions, such as those used
                                    in EchoLink, regular phone lines, etc.

                                    How was 97.113 ever written into the rules if it instantly indicts
                                    hundreds of hams every day for being illegal in their operations? In
                                    other words, if no other "radio station" can be a part of any amateur
                                    transmission, then each and every autopatch could be illegal. Yet no
                                    ham has ever been fined, I'm quite sure, for simply initiating and
                                    participating in a patch, with the FCC referring to 97.113, just
                                    because there was a microwave link in the audio path somewhere. And
                                    for 6+ decades! Please clarify for me.

                                    Laryn K8TVZ


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                                  • jtlr.fischer@sbcglobal.net
                                    thank you andrew I agree with the yellow light idea ... From: Andrew Young To: WestMichiganHams@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 5:29 PM
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 5, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      thank you andrew I agree with the yellow light  idea
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 5:29 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                                      I think this issue is one of splitting hairs.  A phone patch is a connection to the telephone system.  How the audio gets to the phone jack is really not of much importance to us.  We have no control beyond that telephone jack at the repeater.
                                       
                                      You could reverse-engineer systems all day if you want to find problems.  How about Echolink on a WI FI connection?
                                       
                                      Retransmit police/TV/broadcast /MURS/FRS frequencies through a crossbander?  That's what it prohibits if you think about it in a reasonable manner.
                                       
                                      Actually, I think it's only illegal if you have a flashing yellow light attached to the antenna of the cell phone.
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:45 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?


                                      Hi All,  I have been reading these messages but don't understand how this help or hurts us.  Please help simplify all this stuff.  Thanks KC8OVS


                                      Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the new Yahoo.com


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                                    • k8mhz@k8mhz.com
                                      I don t know why this came through now. I sent it 11-3-06. As long as we are on the subject, the FCC wrote to me and told me that the audio from a cell phone
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 8, 2006
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                                        I don't know why this came through now.  I sent it 11-3-06.
                                         
                                        As long as we are on the subject, the FCC wrote to me and told me that the audio from a cell phone was legal to retransmit through amateur radio.  According to the dude at the consumer center it was Riley himself that answered me.
                                         
                                        73
                                         
                                        Mark K8MHZ
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: k8mhz@...
                                        Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 20:47
                                        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                                        FM broadcast is 88.0 to 108.0.  They don't operate by the same rules we do.
                                         
                                        Attached is a great frequency chart.  Adobe Acrobat Reader required.
                                         
                                        73,
                                         
                                        Mark K8MHZ
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 00:59
                                        Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                                        Who operates / owns 88.7-106.5 MHz ? I have heard phone conversations there before . As well with the UHF standard and "T" band .
                                         
                                        UHF standard = 450-470 MHz
                                        UHF "T" band = 470-512 MHz
                                         
                                                                                           KD8BIG
                                         
                                        ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
                                        From: <k8mhz@k8mhz. com>

                                        "No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
                                        you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
                                        possible."
                                         
                                        It is technically possible with ACUs.  Reverse phone patches using land lines are and have been legal for some time.  If the phone is cellular instead of a land line it is still a reverse phone patch but in actuality is a re-transmission of a non-amateur frequency.  Both the Motorola ACU-1000 and a properly set up EchoStation repeater have the capability of re-transmitting ANY audio input to an amateur frequency, or any frequency that there is a transmitter for.  EchoStation can be set up with a cell phone as a receiver and a ham rig as a transmitter so the cell # could be called and the received audio is sent out over the transmitter.  EchoLink uses many frequencies via the Internet in the same manner.   This seems like a breech of the law, not just to me,  but others as well.  NOT to be taken that this use is a travesty, but more to be taken as a need to address Part 97's failure to keep up with the times. /FONT>
                                         
                                        "I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
                                        use RF is incidental to their operation, and would not fall under an
                                        interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
                                        other services."
                                         
                                        The only allowance for incidentals is clearly outlined and pertains to things such as music on the ISS for instance.  Nowhere in Part 97 is there an exception for devices that use RF 'incidental to their operation',  which I don't think is the case for cell phones.  Cell phones are radio phones and the radio part is the primary function of those devices, not merely incidental.
                                         
                                        The re-transmission exclusion bears no written exceptions and leaves little room for interpretation.  Without an exception for cellular or cordless phones it is against the ruling of 97.113. 
                                         
                                        If I missed something in other sections of Part 97 please point them out to me.
                                         
                                        I think this is the case of the law not keeping up with the technology.
                                         
                                        73,
                                         
                                        Mark K8MHZ
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 22:06
                                        Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                                        --- In WestMichiganHams@ yahoogroups. com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Chris,
                                        >
                                        > Sending TO a pager is different, no other form of radio transmission
                                        is being re-broadcast via amateur radio unless it was done using a
                                        radio telephone.
                                        >
                                        > So, if it is OK to use a phone patch to re-broadcast cellular
                                        phones, would it then be OK to have a repeater in which the input was
                                        a cellular phone?
                                        >
                                        > See where I am concerned?

                                        No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
                                        you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
                                        possible.

                                        > If it is NOT OK to use a cellular phone as a repeater input it is
                                        also NOT OK to use them on a phone patch as the exact same
                                        retransmission is suspect, just connected differently.

                                        I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
                                        use RF is inci dental to their operation, and would not fall under an
                                        interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
                                        other services.

                                        Good discussion though.

                                        Laryn K8TVZ


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                                      • Jim KC8PCJ
                                        Keep an eye out at the larger ham fest. I got one of these for free and it is 2ft by 3ft. Great wall paper. ... From: k8mhz@k8mhz.com To:
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 8, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Keep an eye out at the larger ham fest. I got one of these for free and it is 2ft by 3ft. Great wall paper.
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: k8mhz@...
                                          Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:47 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                                          FM broadcast is 88.0 to 108.0.  They don't operate by the same rules we do.
                                           
                                          Attached is a great frequency chart.  Adobe Acrobat Reader required.
                                           
                                          73,
                                           
                                          Mark K8MHZ
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 00:59
                                          Subject: Re: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                                          Who operates / owns 88.7-106.5 MHz ? I have heard phone conversations there before . As well with the UHF standard and "T" band .
                                           
                                          UHF standard = 450-470 MHz
                                          UHF "T" band = 470-512 MHz
                                           
                                                                                             KD8BIG
                                           
                                          ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
                                          From: <k8mhz@k8mhz. com>

                                          "No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
                                          you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
                                          possible."
                                           
                                          It is technically possible with ACUs.  Reverse phone patches using land lines are and have been legal for some time.  If the phone is cellular instead of a land line it is still a reverse phone patch but in actuality is a re-transmission of a non-amateur frequency.  Both the Motorola ACU-1000 and a properly set up EchoStation repeater have the capability of re-transmitting ANY audio input to an amateur frequency, or any frequency that there is a transmitter for.  EchoStation can be set up with a cell phone as a receiver and a ham rig as a transmitter so the cell # could be called and the received audio is sent out over the transmitter.  EchoLink uses many frequencies via the Internet in the same manner.   This seems like a breech of the law, not just to me,  but others as well.  NOT to be taken that this use is a travesty, but more to be taken as a need to address Part 97's failure to keep up with the times. /FONT>
                                           
                                          "I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
                                          use RF is incidental to their operation, and would not fall under an
                                          interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
                                          other services."
                                           
                                          The only allowance for incidentals is clearly outlined and pertains to things such as music on the ISS for instance.  Nowhere in Part 97 is there an exception for devices that use RF 'incidental to their operation',  which I don't think is the case for cell phones.  Cell phones are radio phones and the radio part is the primary function of those devices, not merely incidental.
                                           
                                          The re-transmission exclusion bears no written exceptions and leaves little room for interpretation.  Without an exception for cellular or cordless phones it is against the ruling of 97.113. 
                                           
                                          If I missed something in other sections of Part 97 please point them out to me.
                                           
                                          I think this is the case of the law not keeping up with the technology.
                                           
                                          73,
                                           
                                          Mark K8MHZ
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 22:06
                                          Subject: [WestMichiganHams] Re: Technicality?

                                          --- In WestMichiganHams@ yahoogroups. com, <k8mhz@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Chris,
                                          >
                                          > Sending TO a pager is different, no other form of radio transmission
                                          is being re-broadcast via amateur radio unless it was done using a
                                          radio telephone.
                                          >
                                          > So, if it is OK to use a phone patch to re-broadcast cellular
                                          phones, would it then be OK to have a repeater in which the input was
                                          a cellular phone?
                                          >
                                          > See where I am concerned?

                                          No, because the cellphone does not transmit in an amateur band. So
                                          you can't use it for a repeater input, even if it were technically
                                          possible.

                                          > If it is NOT OK to use a cellular phone as a repeater input it is
                                          also NOT OK to use them on a phone patch as the exact same
                                          retransmission is suspect, just connected differently.

                                          I totally disagree with your premise, Mark. The fact that cellphones
                                          use RF is inci dental to their operation, and would not fall under an
                                          interpretation of the amateur rules prohibiting re-broadcasting of
                                          other services.

                                          Good discussion though.

                                          Laryn K8TVZ


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