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Re: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Incorporating Clinton Anderson "stuff" in an event

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  • Michael Canfield
    Good points all around! I think many of the techniques were taught in the oral tradition and not really written down. We see a lot of that as we reserches our
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009
      Good points all around!
      I think many of the techniques were taught in the oral tradition and not really written down. We see a lot of that as we reserches our varied arts and sciences.
      natural horsemanship seems like a better way to train and sice the horse was a bigger part of the lives of folks in the middle ages you would think that a confident and willing horse would be better than one who was toaugh by harsher methods. Yet, as stated...it is speculation.
      As a side note...for those interested in this kind of thing...RFD-TV is running a three part series on Tom Dorrance. He is quoted by many folks as being the person who re-energized the "natural horsemanship" movement and is the person the The Horse Whisperer is based on. Part 1 was pretty inspirational.
      Check it out if you can.

      On Oct 15, 2009, Troy Griffith <Troy@...> wrote:

       

      You could ask someone who is in the SCA and does this sort of stuff. ;>

       

      www.troygriffith.com/training

       

      He He.

       

      But seriously, I have found little real documented about training techniques in period and what there is looked to me to be more like methods used by the “Spanish School” of horse training than what is commonly termed “Natural Horsemanship” today. 

      I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has found good documentation for horse training in the middle ages.

      Not that I would probably want to do things the way they did with my own horses, but as a purely academic study, it would be interesting.

      I suspect some trainers back then might have approached things similarly to modern “natural horsemen” but without some sort of evidence it is simply conjecture.

       

      Sir William Brannan

       

       

       

       

      Funny this should come up.  I was just thinking of how I could have a guest instructor come and demonstrate this type of stuff.  I know two people who are really good at it (one officially qualified in the Pat Parelli method), but I am pretty sure they wouldn't want to join the SCA.  Not sure how we could "make it period" so to speak.

       

      I was thinking about asking one of them to come to Estrella War.....

       

       

      Any thoughts on that?

       

      Saragrace

       

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    • Wicked Frau
      So, does that mean you ll teach a class for me at EW? Tee Hee, Sg
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009
        So,  does that mean you'll teach a class for me at EW?  

        Tee Hee,

          Sg

        On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Wf <wickedfrau@...> wrote:
        --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:

        You could ask someone who is in the SCA and does this sort of stuff. ;>



        www.troygriffith.com/training



        He He.



        But seriously, I have found little real documented about training techniques
        in period and what there is looked to me to be more like methods used by the
        "Spanish School" of horse training than what is commonly termed "Natural
        Horsemanship" today.

        I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has found good documentation
        for horse training in the middle ages.

        Not that I would probably want to do things the way they did with my own
        horses, but as a purely academic study, it would be interesting.

        I suspect some trainers back then might have approached things similarly to
        modern "natural horsemen" but without some sort of evidence it is simply
        conjecture.



        Sir William Brannan







      • Wicked Frau
        I am looking through my electronic files for something which might interest you all. These techniques were revived in the 19th century and demonstrated all
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009
          I am looking through my electronic files for something which might interest you all.  These techniques were revived in the 19th century and demonstrated all over the world with quite as much wonder and amazement as they get today.  I have an article (or is it a book?) which I found on google (books I think) which I will hunt down and provide.  Obviously this isn't "period" but I think it points to how such knowledge can be lost and found again....

          I'll get back to you with the info...
          Sg

          On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Michael Canfield <dcamville@...> wrote:


          Good points all around!
          I think many of the techniques were taught in the oral tradition and not really written down. We see a lot of that as we reserches our varied arts and sciences.
          natural horsemanship seems like a better way to train and sice the horse was a bigger part of the lives of folks in the middle ages you would think that a confident and willing horse would be better than one who was toaugh by harsher methods. Yet, as stated...it is speculation.
          As a side note...for those interested in this kind of thing...RFD-TV is running a three part series on Tom Dorrance. He is quoted by many folks as being the person who re-energized the "natural horsemanship" movement and is the person the The Horse Whisperer is based on. Part 1 was pretty inspirational.
          Check it out if you can.

          On Oct 15, 2009, Troy Griffith <Troy@...> wrote:

           

          You could ask someone who is in the SCA and does this sort of stuff. ;>

           

          www.troygriffith.com/training

           

          He He.

           

          But seriously, I have found little real documented about training techniques in period and what there is looked to me to be more like methods used by the “Spanish School” of horse training than what is commonly termed “Natural Horsemanship” today. 

          I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has found good documentation for horse training in the middle ages.

          Not that I would probably want to do things the way they did with my own horses, but as a purely academic study, it would be interesting.

          I suspect some trainers back then might have approached things similarly to modern “natural horsemen” but without some sort of evidence it is simply conjecture.

           

          Sir William Brannan

           

           

           

           

          Funny this should come up.  I was just thinking of how I could have a guest instructor come and demonstrate this type of stuff.  I know two people who are really good at it (one officially qualified in the Pat Parelli method), but I am pretty sure they wouldn't want to join the SCA.  Not sure how we could "make it period" so to speak.

           

          I was thinking about asking one of them to come to Estrella War.....

           

           

          Any thoughts on that?

           

          Saragrace

           

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        • Wicked Frau
          And here it is: http://books.google.com/books?q=john+solomon+rarey&btnG=Search+Books
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009
            And here it is:  
            http://books.google.com/books?q=john+solomon+rarey&btnG=Search+Books


            On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Wicked Frau <wickedfrau@...> wrote:
            I am looking through my electronic files for something which might interest you all.  These techniques were revived in the 19th century and demonstrated all over the world with quite as much wonder and amazement as they get today.  I have an article (or is it a book?) which I found on google (books I think) which I will hunt down and provide.  Obviously this isn't "period" but I think it points to how such knowledge can be lost and found again....

            I'll get back to you with the info...
            Sg

            On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Michael Canfield <dcamville@...> wrote:


          • laura_langford
            My late father knew Bill and Tom Dorrance. They were amazing men. That said, I think they d be spinning in their graves knowing what marketing and greed has
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009
              My late father knew Bill and Tom Dorrance. They were amazing men. That said, I think they'd be spinning in their graves knowing what marketing and greed has done to their very simple (and not exactly ground-breaking) principles.

              --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, Wicked Frau <wickedfrau@...> wrote:
              >
              > So, does that mean you'll teach a class for me at EW?
              > Tee Hee,
              >
              > Sg
              >
              > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Wf <wickedfrau@...> wrote:
              >
              > > --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@> wrote:
              > >
              > > You could ask someone who is in the SCA and does this sort of stuff. ;>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > www.troygriffith.com/training
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > He He.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > But seriously, I have found little real documented about training
              > > techniques
              > > in period and what there is looked to me to be more like methods used by
              > > the
              > > "Spanish School" of horse training than what is commonly termed "Natural
              > > Horsemanship" today.
              > >
              > > I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has found good
              > > documentation
              > > for horse training in the middle ages.
              > >
              > > Not that I would probably want to do things the way they did with my own
              > > horses, but as a purely academic study, it would be interesting.
              > >
              > > I suspect some trainers back then might have approached things similarly to
              > > modern "natural horsemen" but without some sort of evidence it is simply
              > > conjecture.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Sir William Brannan
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Troy Griffith
              I would be happy to offer instructions in the methods I use, but knowing horse folk and the SCA as I do, I suspect not many would find it all that interesting
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009

                I would be happy to offer instructions in the methods I use, but knowing horse folk and the SCA as I do, I suspect not many would find it all that interesting or useful. ;>

                Add to this the fact that it is looking like I will not be able to make it to the war this year…

                A shame really, I had a good time last year.

                 

                Sir William Brannan (Troy)

                 

                 

                From: Wicked Frau [mailto:wickedfrau@...]
                Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:25 AM
                To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com; Sir William Brannan
                Subject: Re: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Incorporating Clinton Anderson "stuff" in an event

                 

                So,  does that mean you'll teach a class for me at EW?  

                 

                Tee Hee,

                 

                  Sg

                 

                On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Wf <wickedfrau@...> wrote:

                --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:

                You could ask someone who is in the SCA and does this sort of stuff. ;>



                www.troygriffith.com/training



                He He.



                But seriously, I have found little real documented about training techniques
                in period and what there is looked to me to be more like methods used by the
                "Spanish School" of horse training than what is commonly termed "Natural
                Horsemanship" today.

                I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has found good documentation
                for horse training in the middle ages.

                Not that I would probably want to do things the way they did with my own
                horses, but as a purely academic study, it would be interesting.

                I suspect some trainers back then might have approached things similarly to
                modern "natural horsemen" but without some sort of evidence it is simply
                conjecture.



                Sir William Brannan





                 

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                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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              • Wicked Frau
                Really? That is too bad...both you not being able to come and that folks wouldn t be interested. I know what little I was doing at a couple of events got
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009
                  Really?  That is too bad...both you not being able to come and that folks wouldn't be interested.  I know what little I was doing at a couple of events got some inquiries from a few non-equestrians.  I think the whole communication thing is fascinating....especially if the "instructor" can explain what is going on.  What makes you say they wouldn't be?  

                  Sg

                  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@...> wrote:


                  I would be happy to offer instructions in the methods I use, but knowing horse folk and the SCA as I do, I suspect not many would find it all that interesting or useful. ;>

                  Add to this the fact that it is looking like I will not be able to make it to the war this year…

                  A shame really, I had a good time last year.

                   

                  Sir William Brannan (Troy)

                   

                   

                  From: Wicked Frau [mailto:wickedfrau@...]
                  Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:25 AM
                  To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com; Sir William Brannan
                  Subject: Re: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Incorporating Clinton Anderson "stuff" in an event

                   

                  So,  does that mean you'll teach a class for me at EW?  

                   

                  Tee Hee,

                   

                    Sg

                   

                  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Wf <wickedfrau@...> wrote:

                  --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:

                  You could ask someone who is in the SCA and does this sort of stuff. ;>



                  www.troygriffith.com/training



                  He He.



                  But seriously, I have found little real documented about training techniques
                  in period and what there is looked to me to be more like methods used by the
                  "Spanish School" of horse training than what is commonly termed "Natural
                  Horsemanship" today.

                  I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has found good documentation
                  for horse training in the middle ages.

                  Not that I would probably want to do things the way they did with my own
                  horses, but as a purely academic study, it would be interesting.

                  I suspect some trainers back then might have approached things similarly to
                  modern "natural horsemen" but without some sort of evidence it is simply
                  conjecture.



                  Sir William Brannan





                   

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                • Corwyn ap Rhys
                  At the risk of putting words in Sir William s mouth, it is often said that if two bystanders are watching a horseman work with his/her horse, then there are at
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009
                    At the risk of putting words in Sir William's mouth, it is often said that if two bystanders are watching a horseman work with his/her horse, then there are at a minimum four different opinions present about how it should be done and each is SURE they are more right than the others.

                    :p

                    -- Corwyn



                    Wicked Frau wrote:
                     

                    Really?  That is too bad...both you not being able to come and that folks wouldn't be interested.  I know what little I was doing at a couple of events got some inquiries from a few non-equestrians.  I think the whole communication  thing is fascinating. ...especially if the "instructor" can explain what is going on.  What makes you say they wouldn't be?  


                    Sg

                    On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@troygriffith. com> wrote:


                    I would be happy to offer instructions in the methods I use, but knowing horse folk and the SCA as I do, I suspect not many would find it all that interesting or useful. ;>

                    Add to this the fact that it is looking like I will not be able to make it to the war this year…

                    A shame really, I had a good time last year.

                     

                    Sir William Brannan (Troy)

                     


                  • Avis Minger
                    Does RFD-TV have a website where these programs can be seen? My cable company doesn t carry this channel. Thanks! Avis _____ From:
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009

                      Does RFD-TV have a website where these programs can be seen?  My cable company doesn’t carry this channel.

                       

                      Thanks!

                       

                      Avis

                       


                      From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                      Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:53 AM
                      To: westkingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Incorporating Clinton Anderson "stuff" in an event

                       

                       

                      Good points all around!
                      I think many of the techniques were taught in the oral tradition and not really written down. We see a lot of that as we reserches our varied arts and sciences.
                      natural horsemanship seems like a better way to train and sice the horse was a bigger part of the lives of folks in the middle ages you would think that a confident and willing horse would be better than one who was toaugh by harsher methods. Yet, as stated...it is speculation.
                      As a side note...for those interested in this kind of thing...RFD- TV is running a three part series on Tom Dorrance. He is quoted by many folks as being the person who re-energized the "natural horsemanship" movement and is the person the The Horse Whisperer is based on. Part 1 was pretty inspirational.
                      Check it out if you can.

                      On Oct 15, 2009, Troy Griffith <Troy@troygriffith. com> wrote:

                       

                      You could ask someone who is in the SCA and does this sort of stuff. ;>

                       

                      www.troygriffith. com/training

                       

                      He He.

                       

                      But seriously, I have found little real documented about training techniques in period and what there is looked to me to be more like methods used by the “Spanish School” of horse training than what is commonly termed “Natural Horsemanship” today. 

                      I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has found good documentation for horse training in the middle ages.

                      Not that I would probably want to do things the way they did with my own horses, but as a purely academic study, it would be interesting.

                      I suspect some trainers back then might have approached things similarly to modern “natural horsemen” but without some sort of evidence it is simply conjecture.

                       

                      Sir William Brannan

                       

                       

                       

                       

                      Funny this should come up.  I was just thinking of how I could have a guest instructor come and demonstrate this type of stuff.  I know two people who are really good at it (one officially qualified in the Pat Parelli method), but I am pretty sure they wouldn't want to join the SCA.  Not sure how we could "make it period" so to speak.

                       

                      I was thinking about asking one of them to come to Estrella War.....

                       

                       

                      Any thoughts on that?

                       

                      Saragrace

                       

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                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.17/2436 - Release Date: 10/14/09 18:32:00

                    • Troy Griffith
                      I will take those words and make them mine from now on. Well said. My normal quote is The only thing two horse trainers are likely to agree on is that a third
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009

                        I will take those words and make them mine from now on. Well said.

                        My normal quote is “The only thing two horse trainers are likely to agree on is that a third is doing it wrong.” ;>

                         

                        William

                         

                        From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Corwyn ap Rhys
                        Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:30 PM
                        To: Wicked Frau
                        Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Incorporating Clinton Anderson "stuff" in an event

                         

                         

                        At the risk of putting words in Sir William's mouth, it is often said that if two bystanders are watching a horseman work with his/her horse, then there are at a minimum four different opinions present about how it should be done and each is SURE they are more right than the others.

                        :p

                        -- Corwyn



                        Wicked Frau wrote:

                         

                        Really?  That is too bad...both you not being able to come and that folks wouldn't be interested.  I know what little I was doing at a couple of events got some inquiries from a few non-equestrians.  I think the whole communication thing is fascinating....especially if the "instructor" can explain what is going on.  What makes you say they wouldn't be?  

                         

                        Sg

                        On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@...> wrote:

                         

                        I would be happy to offer instructions in the methods I use, but knowing horse folk and the SCA as I do, I suspect not many would find it all that interesting or useful. ;>

                        Add to this the fact that it is looking like I will not be able to make it to the war this year…

                        A shame really, I had a good time last year.

                         

                        Sir William Brannan (Troy)

                         

                         

                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                      • Wicked Frau
                        I hear ya. But doesn t that apply to almost anything you teach in the SCA or otherwise? Sg On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Corwyn ap Rhys
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009
                          I hear ya.  But doesn't that apply to almost anything you teach in the SCA or otherwise?   
                          Sg

                          On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Corwyn ap Rhys <corwyn@...> wrote:
                          At the risk of putting words in Sir William's mouth, it is often said that if two bystanders are watching a horseman work with his/her horse, then there are at a minimum four different opinions present about how it should be done and each is SURE they are more right than the others.

                          :p

                          -- Corwyn




                          Wicked Frau wrote:
                           

                          Really?  That is too bad...both you not being able to come and that folks wouldn't be interested.  I know what little I was doing at a couple of events got some inquiries from a few non-equestrians.  I think the whole communication thing is fascinating....especially if the "instructor" can explain what is going on.  What makes you say they wouldn't be?  


                          Sg

                          On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@...> wrote:


                          I would be happy to offer instructions in the methods I use, but knowing horse folk and the SCA as I do, I suspect not many would find it all that interesting or useful. ;>

                          Add to this the fact that it is looking like I will not be able to make it to the war this year…

                          A shame really, I had a good time last year.

                           

                          Sir William Brannan (Troy)

                           



                        • Troy Griffith
                          Quite true, but for some reason it seems more true in the horse community. ; Which is why I only teach, horsemanship, sword fighting, whatever, those people
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009

                            Quite true, but for some reason it seems more true in the horse community. ;>  Which is why I only teach, horsemanship, sword fighting, whatever, those people who come to me and ask me to show them my way of doing things.  Obviously one would assume that someone who came out to a demonstration held at an event like Estrella, would be showing that they were interested.  If there was such a show of interest, I would be happy to spend a few hours showing the approach I take, if I were to be able to come.  It may be possible, it will just depend on how work goes between now at then. ;>

                             

                            William

                             

                            From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wicked Frau
                            Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 6:51 PM
                            To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Incorporating Clinton Anderson "stuff" in an event

                             

                             

                            I hear ya.  But doesn't that apply to almost anything you teach in the SCA or otherwise?   

                            Sg

                            On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Corwyn ap Rhys <corwyn@...> wrote:

                            At the risk of putting words in Sir William's mouth, it is often said that if two bystanders are watching a horseman work with his/her horse, then there are at a minimum four different opinions present about how it should be done and each is SURE they are more right than the others.

                            :p

                            -- Corwyn





                            Wicked Frau wrote:

                             

                            Really?  That is too bad...both you not being able to come and that folks wouldn't be interested.  I know what little I was doing at a couple of events got some inquiries from a few non-equestrians.  I think the whole communication thing is fascinating....especially if the "instructor" can explain what is going on.  What makes you say they wouldn't be?  

                             

                            Sg

                            On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@...> wrote:

                             

                            I would be happy to offer instructions in the methods I use, but knowing horse folk and the SCA as I do, I suspect not many would find it all that interesting or useful. ;>

                            Add to this the fact that it is looking like I will not be able to make it to the war this year…

                            A shame really, I had a good time last year.

                             

                            Sir William Brannan (Troy)

                             

                             

                             

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                          • Avis Minger
                            Hi All! I just wanted to put in my two cents worth on the discussion about historical methods. I think educated people might have known about Xenophon and his
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009

                              Hi All!

                               

                              I just wanted to put in my two cents worth on the discussion about historical methods.  I think educated people might have known about Xenophon and his writings on horsemanship, although I imagine people who were not of the nobility, or who couldn’t read, would have been cut off from this source of knowledge, and I’m not sure if Xenophon was only resurrected in the Renaissance, or if he was accessible to readers earlier than that.

                               

                              I have a delightful book in my library which I inherited from my great aunt, called The Compleat Horseman by Gervase Markham, who was the leading Elizabethan expert on the horse and taught many of Queen Elizabeth’s courtiers the art of riding.  This book covers training of a young horse, choosing a horse for various purposes, care, breeding, dressage, and special sections on working with horses for the hunt and for travelling.  He also gives advice to the rider planning a display of riding for his sovereign, not something you would likely find today in your average horse book, except perhaps in Britain .

                               

                              Some of what Markham says still makes perfect sense, and other parts we probably wouldn’t want to follow, but given how relatively slowly knowledge and practices changed in the world of horses and riding at that time, I would guess that much of what Markham is saying probably holds good for at least fifty years beforehand, and possibly further back, so it could be used as at least a partial indicator of Medieval practices.

                               

                              If there are any materials extant on Roman practices, probably some of them carried over into the Middle Ages, because the Romans were all over, and they spread their ways of doing things wherever they went.  They weren’t really big on cavalry, and most of their horse knowledge probably also came down from Xenophon and his writings.

                               

                              I’ve been reading The Revolution in Horsemanship  by Robert Miller and Rick Lamb, and one of the things they go into is why natural horsemanship only took hold and became widespread relatively recently in humankind’s relationship with the horse, when it is probable (although we can’t prove it) that people had tried and used at least some of these same methods earlier than the 20th century.  We have documentation of horse whisperers in the nineteenth century, but there are reasons why it didn’t stick and become the standard method of dealing with horses.  I don’t think the modern day clinicians have really “discovered” anything new so much as they have ensured that like the New World after Columbus , in the 20th century, and on into the 21st,  natural horsemanship has stayed discovered by most of the world, and has gone into more common practice.

                               

                              The first thing that seems to have contributed to this change was that the work horses had done prior to the 20th century was largely taken over by automobiles, tractors, etc., and more horses became luxury, sport, and companion animals than working animals.  This allowed for the possibility of training being done in a more leisurely, knowledgeable, and thorough fashion by the average horse owner, rather than relying on “quick and dirty” because you needed an animal to go to work right away.  Places like the Spanish Riding School could and did take more time with their horses, because they were preserving a particular type of training as an art form, but not every person historically had either the knowledge or the luxury of time to follow these kinds of training methods.

                               

                              Another factor, which is unique to our lifetime and would not have been a factor in the Middle Ages, is that animal training altogether took a very different turn in the road when we began interacting with marine mammals in training situations.  Coercive methods were generally the norm at that time, for elephants, horses, big cats, and most large animals including primates, although there were always exceptions.  I remember Mabel Stark’s tigers, who were worked with in close to the methods that were called “affection training”, and would now probably be called natural training. 

                               

                              Anyway, marine mammals, the sea lions, dolphins, and most especially the orcas, could not be worked with in the standard coercive way.  You couldn’t force them to do anything, or use any method that involved force, because they were too strong.   If they feared or disliked you they would avoid you, which precluded training, and they could hurt you if you went after them in the water, where humans are at a disadvantage.  Draining the tank and beaching them every time you wanted to do medical procedures, or otherwise handle them, was expensive and time consuming, not to mention stressful for the animals.

                               

                              So the marine mammal trainers turned to psychology, and adapted the behavior shaping techniques based on positive reinforcement.  As far as I know, there is only one negative reinforcement ever used with marine mammals, and that is removing your presence (ie. I won’t play with you if you are being too rough, not cooperating, etc.).  And since the animals seem to enjoy their work, or at least they enjoy earning fish, which is a huge motivation, they tend to want to cooperate.  What you are seeing when you watch a dolphin show is essentially clicker training, but with a whistle for a bridge instead of a click (because they can hear that more clearl),, and fish for food reinforcement.   Trainers discovered that not only did this work better than coercive methods, but that they were able to train behaviors that had not been tried before with other wild animals, such as having them cooperate with handling and vet work.  This is now all standard procedure in zoos, using positive reinforcement and other things, like Tellington Touch.

                               

                              So the discoveries of the marine mammal trainers spilled over into every kind of animal training, and it also revolutionized training animals for movies and TV.  Remember Flipper, and Daktari, and Gentle Ben?  Those were all shows that promoted this kind of training, which brings us to another point, which is that communication, and the ability to take advantage of the knowledge and expertise of others, became much easier because of books, videos and later DVD’s, traveling clinicians and expos, and the internet.

                               

                              At the same time this was happening, scientists were studying animal behavior, including the behavior of the animals closest to humans, the dog, the cat, and the horse.  All of this came together, and trainers started taking the natural behavior of animals, especially social animals, into consideration when they adapted training techniques.  Again, something that might have been a factor in Medieval times for someone who was a keen observer of nature, but likely not a widespread influence.  Science has a much bigger impact on our practices currently because science as it now exists is accepted, believed in, not feared as witchcraft, and we tend to put it to practical use.

                               

                              The final thing was that so many more women became involved with horses, and they were more open to change, especially if it meant they could be more gentle.  Does anyone know how much involvement women had with horses and their training or raising generally in the Middle Ages?  Has anyone researched that?

                               

                              Anyway, I hope this was interesting and useful.

                               

                              Avis Minger

                               

                              From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                              Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:53 AM
                              To: westkingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Incorporating Clinton Anderson "stuff" in an event

                               

                               

                              Good points all around!
                              I think many of the techniques were taught in the oral tradition and not really written down. We see a lot of that as we reserches our varied arts and sciences.
                              natural horsemanship seems like a better way to train and sice the horse was a bigger part of the lives of folks in the middle ages you would think that a confident and willing horse would be better than one who was toaugh by harsher methods. Yet, as stated...it is speculation.
                              As a side note...for those interested in this kind of thing...RFD- TV is running a three part series on Tom Dorrance. He is quoted by many folks as being the person who re-energized the "natural horsemanship" movement and is the person the The Horse Whisperer is based on. Part 1 was pretty inspirational.
                              Check it out if you can.

                              On Oct 15, 2009, Troy Griffith <Troy@troygriffith. com> wrote:

                               

                              You could ask someone who is in the SCA and does this sort of stuff. ;>

                               

                              www.troygriffith. com/training

                               

                              He He.

                               

                              But seriously, I have found little real documented about training techniques in period and what there is looked to me to be more like methods used by the “Spanish School” of horse training than what is commonly termed “Natural Horsemanship” today. 

                              I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has found good documentation for horse training in the middle ages.

                              Not that I would probably want to do things the way they did with my own horses, but as a purely academic study, it would be interesting.

                              I suspect some trainers back then might have approached things similarly to modern “natural horsemen” but without some sort of evidence it is simply conjecture.

                               

                              Sir William Brannan

                               

                               

                               

                               

                              Funny this should come up.  I was just thinking of how I could have a guest instructor come and demonstrate this type of stuff.  I know two people who are really good at it (one officially qualified in the Pat Parelli method), but I am pretty sure they wouldn't want to join the SCA.  Not sure how we could "make it period" so to speak.

                               

                              I was thinking about asking one of them to come to Estrella War.....

                               

                               

                              Any thoughts on that?

                               

                              Saragrace

                               

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                            • henrikofhavn
                              Hi Avis, Thanks for the very interesting insight. I never realized Marine Mammal training took such a different approach. I remember Black Beauty and the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 16, 2009
                                Hi Avis,

                                Thanks for the very interesting insight. I never realized Marine Mammal training took such a different approach. I remember "Black Beauty" and the whippings given to force compliance, and the old tradition of "breaking" bucking horses on ranches. Obviously they are coersive methods to force compliance, and have been looked to as "normal" methods by many horseMEN, over the years. Euphimistic justifications of such behavior by "old school" trainers along the lines of "not letting the horse get away with bad behavior" or "letting them know whose boss" or " don't molly coddle them" , etc.
                                can often be hiding the coersion many horse trainers think is necessary to get a horse "to behave" or "be properly trained".

                                I believe you're right, that many horsewomen are inclined to gentler methods and feel the new "natural" training methods are preferable. I wonder if anyone has done a comparative study of results?

                                Thanks too, for the mention of Markham's book The Complete Horseman. I wonder where a copy might be found?

                                The problem I've had in reading older works about the various horse training that was done and riding instructions being offered, is that they are written in an older gramatical form where although many of the words can be translated into modern words, the intnded meaning of the author is left open to a lot of interpretation.

                                Translations from foreign languages are about as undeciferable as is Elizabethan text, for me, since the meaning is usually interpretive and not exact, as modern educational writings tend more so, to be. So if you don't understand the subtlties being presented, you don't understand the lion's share of the meaning and applying it to a specific horse's training seems even more difficult. For instance, Dom Duarte , translated from the 15th century Portuguese, speaks of matters in a way I find difficult to understand or put to clear use while riding. I think I understand his words, sometimes to mean " just keep on doing what I usually do" but I'm not sure that is correct. So I can either stew about it and try to focus on specifics and try to do them , or I can just ignore it all and just ride like I always do, and if someone says I don't do something like Dom Duarte says, I can then think on the specific matter and see if another way is what he is advocating. For me, what is more informative, is a drawing in Fiore's manuscript, that shows a rider with a spear couched under his left arm, but held in the middle and being aimed by his right hand, while his left hand holds the reins. Such a divergence from the spear is held by the right hand while the butt end is couched under the same arm's arm pit.

                                I never thought of seperating the holding of the lance into two parts, or two points of contact or support, until I saw Fiore's drawing. The lance is most strongly held, if at two points along it's length. The further apart from each other, the more secure the grip on the lance can become, as far as leverage and the transferance of power that can be focused by the lance, is concerned.

                                So training to use the lance , couched under either arm, while still being held and aimed by the right hand , is possible, and can be very important for success in some unusual circumstances. Fiore's instructions made that clearer to me, than I had understood before.

                                So it seems information that was known in period, by some sources and their students, was often not widely available. In many cases it was lost or hidden, until modern scholars or innovators developed new or renewed understandings. Some of these have found a larger audience, now made possible by moden communication developments, combined with a surge of interest in "natural" and "green" cultural growth.


                                Henrik

                                ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



                                --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Avis Minger" <orcadragon@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi All!
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I just wanted to put in my two cents worth on the discussion about
                                > historical methods. I think educated people might have known about Xenophon
                                > and his writings on horsemanship, although I imagine people who were not of
                                > the nobility, or who couldn't read, would have been cut off from this source
                                > of knowledge, and I'm not sure if Xenophon was only resurrected in the
                                > Renaissance, or if he was accessible to readers earlier than that.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I have a delightful book in my library which I inherited from my great aunt,
                                > called The Compleat Horseman by Gervase Markham, who was the leading
                                > Elizabethan expert on the horse and taught many of Queen Elizabeth's
                                > courtiers the art of riding. This book covers training of a young horse,
                                > choosing a horse for various purposes, care, breeding, dressage, and special
                                > sections on working with horses for the hunt and for travelling. He also
                                > gives advice to the rider planning a display of riding for his sovereign,
                                > not something you would likely find today in your average horse book, except
                                > perhaps in Britain.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Some of what Markham says still makes perfect sense, and other parts we
                                > probably wouldn't want to follow, but given how relatively slowly knowledge
                                > and practices changed in the world of horses and riding at that time, I
                                > would guess that much of what Markham is saying probably holds good for at
                                > least fifty years beforehand, and possibly further back, so it could be used
                                > as at least a partial indicator of Medieval practices.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > If there are any materials extant on Roman practices, probably some of them
                                > carried over into the Middle Ages, because the Romans were all over, and
                                > they spread their ways of doing things wherever they went. They weren't
                                > really big on cavalry, and most of their horse knowledge probably also came
                                > down from Xenophon and his writings.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I've been reading The Revolution in Horsemanship by Robert Miller and Rick
                                > Lamb, and one of the things they go into is why natural horsemanship only
                                > took hold and became widespread relatively recently in humankind's
                                > relationship with the horse, when it is probable (although we can't prove
                                > it) that people had tried and used at least some of these same methods
                                > earlier than the 20th century. We have documentation of horse whisperers in
                                > the nineteenth century, but there are reasons why it didn't stick and become
                                > the standard method of dealing with horses. I don't think the modern day
                                > clinicians have really "discovered" anything new so much as they have
                                > ensured that like the New World after Columbus, in the 20th century, and on
                                > into the 21st, natural horsemanship has stayed discovered by most of the
                                > world, and has gone into more common practice.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The first thing that seems to have contributed to this change was that the
                                > work horses had done prior to the 20th century was largely taken over by
                                > automobiles, tractors, etc., and more horses became luxury, sport, and
                                > companion animals than working animals. This allowed for the possibility of
                                > training being done in a more leisurely, knowledgeable, and thorough fashion
                                > by the average horse owner, rather than relying on "quick and dirty" because
                                > you needed an animal to go to work right away. Places like the Spanish
                                > Riding School could and did take more time with their horses, because they
                                > were preserving a particular type of training as an art form, but not every
                                > person historically had either the knowledge or the luxury of time to follow
                                > these kinds of training methods.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Another factor, which is unique to our lifetime and would not have been a
                                > factor in the Middle Ages, is that animal training altogether took a very
                                > different turn in the road when we began interacting with marine mammals in
                                > training situations. Coercive methods were generally the norm at that time,
                                > for elephants, horses, big cats, and most large animals including primates,
                                > although there were always exceptions. I remember Mabel Stark's tigers, who
                                > were worked with in close to the methods that were called "affection
                                > training", and would now probably be called natural training.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Anyway, marine mammals, the sea lions, dolphins, and most especially the
                                > orcas, could not be worked with in the standard coercive way. You couldn't
                                > force them to do anything, or use any method that involved force, because
                                > they were too strong. If they feared or disliked you they would avoid you,
                                > which precluded training, and they could hurt you if you went after them in
                                > the water, where humans are at a disadvantage. Draining the tank and
                                > beaching them every time you wanted to do medical procedures, or otherwise
                                > handle them, was expensive and time consuming, not to mention stressful for
                                > the animals.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > So the marine mammal trainers turned to psychology, and adapted the behavior
                                > shaping techniques based on positive reinforcement. As far as I know, there
                                > is only one negative reinforcement ever used with marine mammals, and that
                                > is removing your presence (ie. I won't play with you if you are being too
                                > rough, not cooperating, etc.). And since the animals seem to enjoy their
                                > work, or at least they enjoy earning fish, which is a huge motivation, they
                                > tend to want to cooperate. What you are seeing when you watch a dolphin
                                > show is essentially clicker training, but with a whistle for a bridge
                                > instead of a click (because they can hear that more clearl),, and fish for
                                > food reinforcement. Trainers discovered that not only did this work better
                                > than coercive methods, but that they were able to train behaviors that had
                                > not been tried before with other wild animals, such as having them cooperate
                                > with handling and vet work. This is now all standard procedure in zoos,
                                > using positive reinforcement and other things, like Tellington Touch.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > So the discoveries of the marine mammal trainers spilled over into every
                                > kind of animal training, and it also revolutionized training animals for
                                > movies and TV. Remember Flipper, and Daktari, and Gentle Ben? Those were
                                > all shows that promoted this kind of training, which brings us to another
                                > point, which is that communication, and the ability to take advantage of the
                                > knowledge and expertise of others, became much easier because of books,
                                > videos and later DVD's, traveling clinicians and expos, and the internet.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > At the same time this was happening, scientists were studying animal
                                > behavior, including the behavior of the animals closest to humans, the dog,
                                > the cat, and the horse. All of this came together, and trainers started
                                > taking the natural behavior of animals, especially social animals, into
                                > consideration when they adapted training techniques. Again, something that
                                > might have been a factor in Medieval times for someone who was a keen
                                > observer of nature, but likely not a widespread influence. Science has a
                                > much bigger impact on our practices currently because science as it now
                                > exists is accepted, believed in, not feared as witchcraft, and we tend to
                                > put it to practical use.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The final thing was that so many more women became involved with horses, and
                                > they were more open to change, especially if it meant they could be more
                                > gentle. Does anyone know how much involvement women had with horses and
                                > their training or raising generally in the Middle Ages? Has anyone
                                > researched that?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Anyway, I hope this was interesting and useful.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Avis Minger
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com]
                                > On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                                > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:53 AM
                                > To: westkingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Incorporating Clinton Anderson "stuff" in
                                > an event
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Good points all around!
                                > I think many of the techniques were taught in the oral tradition and not
                                > really written down. We see a lot of that as we reserches our varied arts
                                > and sciences.
                                > natural horsemanship seems like a better way to train and sice the horse was
                                > a bigger part of the lives of folks in the middle ages you would think that
                                > a confident and willing horse would be better than one who was toaugh by
                                > harsher methods. Yet, as stated...it is speculation.
                                > As a side note...for those interested in this kind of thing...RFD-TV is
                                > running a three part series on Tom Dorrance. He is quoted by many folks as
                                > being the person who re-energized the "natural horsemanship" movement and is
                                > the person the The Horse Whisperer is based on. Part 1 was pretty
                                > inspirational.
                                > Check it out if you can.
                                >
                                > On Oct 15, 2009, Troy Griffith <Troy@troygriffith.
                                > <mailto:Troy@...> com> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > You could ask someone who is in the SCA and does this sort of stuff. ;>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > www.troygriffith. <http://www.troygriffith.com/training> com/training
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training>
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training>
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training> He He.
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training>
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training> But seriously, I have found little
                                > real documented about training techniques in period and what there is looked
                                > to me to be more like methods used by the "Spanish School" of horse training
                                > than what is commonly termed "Natural Horsemanship" today.
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training> I would be interested in knowing if
                                > anyone else has found good documentation for horse training in the middle
                                > ages.
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training> Not that I would probably want to do
                                > things the way they did with my own horses, but as a purely academic study,
                                > it would be interesting.
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training> I suspect some trainers back then
                                > might have approached things similarly to modern "natural horsemen" but
                                > without some sort of evidence it is simply conjecture.
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training>
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training> Sir William Brannan
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training>
                                >
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training>
                                >
                                > From: <http://www.troygriffith.com/training>
                                > <http://www.troygriffith.com/training>
                                > <mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com> WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Funny this should come up. I was just thinking of how I could have a guest
                                > instructor come and demonstrate this type of stuff. I know two people who
                                > are really good at it (one officially qualified in the Pat Parelli method),
                                > but I am pretty sure they wouldn't want to join the SCA. Not sure how we
                                > could "make it period" so to speak.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I was thinking about asking one of them to come to Estrella War.....
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Any thoughts on that?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Saragrace
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                > Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.17/2436 - Release Date: 10/14/09
                                > 18:32:00
                                >
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