Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Training Aids in Period

Expand Messages
  • Else Hunrvogt
    So I ve been doing some research to revamp my horse drawn vehicle class and came across several pictures of high quality reenactments using
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 12, 2007
      So I've been doing some research to revamp my horse drawn vehicle
      class and came across several pictures of high quality reenactments
      using standing-martingales, running-martingales, and other "training
      aids".

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/southerncounties/content/image_galleries/hastings
      _battle_gallery.shtml?8

      http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=439016&id=593316207&l=ecbcc

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Jousting-pic-1.jpg

      With the exception of Henrik's references to blindfolded horses and
      some curb reins that appear fixed in position at the pommel of the
      saddle, I haven't seen evidence of training aids in period.

      So a few questions for you all...

      What documentation of training aids do you have?

      Was any form of martingale used in period?

      What are we doing differently that we have (and see a need to use)
      these aids if they are not documentable?




      My personal holy grail would be finding documentation for blinders on
      a driving horse in period. Please send me a copy if you ever find
      some.

      Blinders developed to prevent wheelers from spooking at the whip lash
      that was directed at the leaders. They also protect the eye if the
      driver if less than accurate with said whip. In horses that are not
      trained to open bridles, they cut down on some of the visual "noise"
      that could be distracting.

      In period, they tended not to drive in quite the same manner. I have
      lots of documentation for Byzantines driving while seated on the cart
      and holding a whip. However, they are driving singles or pairs,
      never a turnout with "leaders" and "wheelers". In the 14th-16th
      Centuries, Western Europe used more than one horse in a line, but
      these turnouts tended to be led or ridden rather than driven. Again
      now need for eye protection on the wheeler and it is much easier (and
      safer) to lead a horse that is not wearing blinkers than one that is.

      My mare was broke to drive in an open (no blinkers) bridle. Actually
      she was broke to drive in a halter, but that's another thread. Then
      she was transitioned into a closed bridle and she spent years in
      various postions of various hitches. When I hitch her, I drive with
      a whip. My vehicle is not safe to be led (modern/victorian vehicles
      tend to be bouncy and top heavy when pulled empty). The lines of my
      carriage and the harness is similar to Byzantine chariots with the
      exception of the leaf springs (17th century invention) and the
      blinders (my earliest documentation is 18th century). On the other
      hand I know that the pony is safe this way for the 1-2 times per year
      she does SCA stuff. It's been 15 years since she was driven in an
      open bridle, and I would have to use her riding bridle.

      Your turn,
      Else
    • la3luna
      Else, I have not seen illuminations nor documentation denoting the use of the type of modern training equipment you have mentioned. This does not mean that it
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 12, 2007
        Else,

        I have not seen illuminations nor documentation denoting the use of
        the type of modern training equipment you have mentioned. This does
        not mean that it did not exist. There are others here who have far
        more resources than I.

        I can tell you a bit about one of your other questions. The high
        fidelity reenactors that you have mentioned will "go to" a standing
        martingale (and the like) if they have an issue with the horse
        throwing his head. They will also use ear plugs with modern ear nets
        during stadium displays or shooting displays.

        Though "possibly" not 100% accurate, these people still rely on
        modern items to function or to make the horse as comfortable as
        possible.

        Another example is period bits and spurs. Ghastly designs if you ask
        me. Do we use them? Typically not, though some strive to mimic them
        in moderation.

        Just a few thoughts,

        Juliana





        --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Else Hunrvogt"
        <nancyreimers@...> wrote:
        >
        > So I've been doing some research to revamp my horse drawn vehicle
        > class and came across several pictures of high quality reenactments
        > using standing-martingales, running-martingales, and
        other "training
        > aids".<SNIP>
      • Else Hunrvogt
        ... nets ... Which is more or less what I figured. While we don t use the same bits and spurs for humane reasons, I doubt those could have been applied in
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 12, 2007
          --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "la3luna" <la3luna@...> wrote:
          >
          > I can tell you a bit about one of your other questions. The high
          > fidelity reenactors that you have mentioned will "go to" a standing
          > martingale (and the like) if they have an issue with the horse
          > throwing his head. They will also use ear plugs with modern ear
          nets
          > during stadium displays or shooting displays.

          Which is more or less what I figured. While we don't use the same
          bits and spurs for humane reasons, I doubt those could have been
          applied in such a manner to prevent head-tossing, train out of,
          perhaps. So the question remains, what did they do with a head
          tosser?

          Stuffing fiber in the ears for noise makes sense and probably had
          some period applications (some of those woodcuts of melees surrounded
          by high galleries may have been very loud). I suspect the matched
          blindfolds started as the "cure" for something. But what?

          Can you tell I'm having a 'curious' day?


          Else
        • Aurora Komnenos
          Hummm, I only use a martingale while starting a baby and by the time a horse is finished they are no longer in a martingale. (Firecracker has graduated to
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 12, 2007
            Hummm,  I only use a martingale while starting a baby and by the time a horse is "finished" they are no longer in a martingale.  (Firecracker has graduated to a round rein and no martingale this year.)  I wonder if there's a lack of info due to a similar usage in period (if we were to assume they were used in period...).
             
            In this vein, I'm very interested if anyone comes across a period bridle lacking a throatlatch.  I have yet to see a depiction that did not have a throatlatch.
             
             - Aurora
             
             

            From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Else Hunrvogt
            Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:12 AM
            To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [WestKingdomEQ] Training Aids in Period

            So I've been doing some research to revamp my horse drawn vehicle
            class and came across several pictures of high quality reenactments
            using standing-martingale s, running-martingales , and other "training
            aids".

            http://www.bbc. co.uk/southernco unties/content/ image_galleries/ hastings
            _battle_gallery. shtml?8

            http://www.facebook .com/photo. php?pid=439016& id=593316207& l=ecbcc

            http://upload. wikimedia. org/wikipedia/ en/8/87/Jousting -pic-1.jpg

            With the exception of Henrik's references to blindfolded horses and
            some curb reins that appear fixed in position at the pommel of the
            saddle, I haven't seen evidence of training aids in period.

            So a few questions for you all...

            What documentation of training aids do you have?

            Was any form of martingale used in period?

            What are we doing differently that we have (and see a need to use)
            these aids if they are not documentable?

            My personal holy grail would be finding documentation for blinders on
            a driving horse in period. Please send me a copy if you ever find
            some.

            Blinders developed to prevent wheelers from spooking at the whip lash
            that was directed at the leaders. They also protect the eye if the
            driver if less than accurate with said whip. In horses that are not
            trained to open bridles, they cut down on some of the visual "noise"
            that could be distracting.

            In period, they tended not to drive in quite the same manner. I have
            lots of documentation for Byzantines driving while seated on the cart
            and holding a whip. However, they are driving singles or pairs,
            never a turnout with "leaders" and "wheelers". In the 14th-16th
            Centuries, Western Europe used more than one horse in a line, but
            these turnouts tended to be led or ridden rather than driven. Again
            now need for eye protection on the wheeler and it is much easier (and
            safer) to lead a horse that is not wearing blinkers than one that is.

            My mare was broke to drive in an open (no blinkers) bridle. Actually
            she was broke to drive in a halter, but that's another thread. Then
            she was transitioned into a closed bridle and she spent years in
            various postions of various hitches. When I hitch her, I drive with
            a whip. My vehicle is not safe to be led (modern/victorian vehicles
            tend to be bouncy and top heavy when pulled empty). The lines of my
            carriage and the harness is similar to Byzantine chariots with the
            exception of the leaf springs (17th century invention) and the
            blinders (my earliest documentation is 18th century). On the other
            hand I know that the pony is safe this way for the 1-2 times per year
            she does SCA stuff. It's been 15 years since she was driven in an
            open bridle, and I would have to use her riding bridle.

            Your turn,
            Else

          • mark murphy
            I am concerned about the unfinished attitude as concerned martingales. Some horses can go without them and others do better with them - Ebony is one of
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 12, 2007
              I am concerned about the 'unfinished' attitude as concerned martingales. Some horses can go without them and others do better with them - Ebony is one of those. I have ridden him both with and without in all sorts of circumstances but found him to be more relaxed with a standing martingale. he is the first horse I avhe ever owned that did better with one, despite training.

              I ahve 2 horses that need low port curbs with short shanks - they both run right through a snaffle mouth - even a snaffle pelham is useless with them. Put them in a weymouth and they both relax and focus - and get much lighter in my hand..

              What the horse needs is what the horse needs. I would hate to have somone think that they will be looked down upon because they put their horse in equipment which worked for them. Not everyone gets a horse from the ground up - and even then not all of them will go in a snaffle bit .

              Sns
            • la3luna
              I imagine that by their very design the insanely high ported medieval bit would have deterred head tossing immediatly! Consider the abuse to the tongue and
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                I imagine that by their very design the "insanely high ported" medieval
                bit would have deterred head tossing immediatly! Consider the abuse to
                the tongue and roof of the mouth if the horse threw it's head and the
                leverage/weight of those shanks manipulated the port ever so skyward.
                Yipes!

                A horse would have to keep a quiet verticle profile to find any level
                of comfort with one of those monsters in the mouth.

                Juliana



                --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Else Hunrvogt"
                <nancyreimers@...> wrote:
                <SNIP> So the question remains, what did they do with a head
                > tosser?<SNIP>
              • la3luna
                I do remember seeing a few medieval illuminations of bridles without throatlatches. I will poke about in my books and send you a few images. Although an extant
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                  I do remember seeing a few medieval illuminations of bridles without
                  throatlatches. I will poke about in my books and send you a few images.
                  Although an extant example would be best as sometimes a strange piece
                  of tack could simply be artisitc license running amok!

                  Juliana


                  --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Aurora Komnenos" <komitissa@...>
                  wrote:
                  <SNIP>
                  > In this vein, I'm very interested if anyone comes across a period
                  bridle
                  > lacking a throatlatch. I have yet to see a depiction that did not
                  have a
                  > throatlatch.
                  >
                  > - Aurora
                • Aurora Komnenos
                  Yeah, extant would be best...but the throatlatch is such an easy single piece of leather to go missing that I don t know if extant could be 100% the sure
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                    Yeah, extant would be best...but the throatlatch is such an easy single piece of leather to "go missing" that I don't know if extant could be 100% the sure thing...(how many of us have lost a concho due to the throatlatch slipping from that little loop....) if the browband clearly didn't have enough "room" on the extant piece then I expect we could safely assume that piece to not have had one as some time.
                     
                    All the reiners these days are using single ear or maybe double split ear headstalls without throatlatches because they have to slip the bridle off at the at the end of the pattern to show they are not using an "illegal" bit....I just find the apparent lack of diversity in headstalls interesting.  I do have pictures of a gorgeous extant enameled headstall in one of my byz books....Firecrackers would be gorgeous in it <G>.
                     
                    As to the bits - remember those high ported things are all western europe...eastern stuff tends to still all be snaffle bits - I wonder what that tells us about training techniques....
                     
                     - A


                    From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of la3luna
                    Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 12:08 AM
                    To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Training Aids in Period

                    I do remember seeing a few medieval illuminations of bridles without
                    throatlatches. I will poke about in my books and send you a few images.
                    Although an extant example would be best as sometimes a strange piece
                    of tack could simply be artisitc license running amok!

                    Juliana

                    --- In WestKingdomEQ@ yahoogroups. com, "Aurora Komnenos" <komitissa@. ..>
                    wrote:
                    <SNIP>

                    >
                    In this vein, I'm very interested if anyone comes across a period
                    bridle
                    > lacking a throatlatch. I have yet to see a depiction that did
                    not
                    have a
                    > throatlatch.
                    >
                    > - Aurora

                  • Else Hunrvogt
                    ... medieval ... to ... Siobhan wrote: I ahve 2 horses that need low port curbs with short shanks - they both run right through a snaffle mouth - even a
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                      --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "la3luna" <la3luna@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I imagine that by their very design the "insanely high ported"
                      medieval
                      > bit would have deterred head tossing immediatly! Consider the abuse
                      to
                      > the tongue and roof of the mouth

                      Siobhan wrote:
                      "I ahve 2 horses that need low port curbs with short shanks - they both
                      run right through a snaffle mouth - even a snaffle pelham is useless
                      with them. Put them in a weymouth and they both relax and focus - and
                      get much lighter in my hand."

                      Else decided a quick side thread on bits and bitting might be in order.

                      Nomenclature (to see if we are all on the same page):

                      Snaffle refers to a bit with a ring. These have little to no levelage
                      on the poll or chin. These bits are sub-typed based on ring
                      configuration (loose ring, egg butt, dee-ring, cheeked,...)

                      Curb refers to a bit with shanks or a leverage bit. These bits exert
                      pressure on the poll and, assuming there is a strap/chain, the chin.

                      Pelhams and Kimberwicks are weird hybrids of the two. Whether they are
                      more snaffle-like or more curb-like depends on the rein attachments.
                      (Liverpools and butterfly bits have similar issues)

                      Nomenclature on mouthpiece shape is independent of nomenclature
                      regarding rings and shanks.

                      Mouth pieces can be jointed or not. They can be jointed in one place
                      or many. They can be made out of different materials. They can be
                      straight or curved, rough or smooth, ported or not. They can have
                      keys, rollers, or twists. They can have varying degrees of angle from
                      the ring/shank.

                      A catalog of some of my favorite bits over the years:
                      1) Stainless, full check, jointed snaffle (I currently own this in
                      three different sizes).
                      2) Full cheek snaffle with a double twisted copper wire mouth piece. (I
                      rode one horse that went in number 1 except in jumper classes. Then
                      the combination of him and me demanded this bit)
                      3) Sweet iron dee-ring snaffle with crickets (Great for baby AQHAs)
                      4) Stainless, Low ported, dee-ring kimberwick (My first horse and my
                      over fences side saddle pony went in this bit - different sizes)
                      5) Stainless, Mullen-mouth (curved, 90 degrees from the shank) pelham
                      (Flatwork Side-saddle pony)
                      6) Blackened Iron, Ported - French link (two joints with a fixed
                      central portion) curb with 5 inch shanks and a copper roller. (It's the
                      only bit my mostly hunter APHA/APtHA mare would jog in.)
                      7) Stainless, jointed liverpool (50% of my ponies have driven in this.)
                      8) Stainless liverpool with a copper wrapped mouth piece and a low and
                      wide port. (That's about 30% of my driving ponies)

                      Physics/Physiology

                      Rule #1 - Any bit is only as harsh or a soft as the hands attached to
                      it.
                      2) With enough leverage and a strong curb chain, you can fracture a jaw.
                      3) Thinner mouth pieces exert more pounds per square inch than thicker.
                      4) Each individual horses mouth, tongue, roof combination can be
                      different. Bits need to fit the horse.
                      5) Ports work by pressing on the roof of the mouth(generally opening
                      the jaw). The joint of a single jointed bit works the same way.
                      7) Direct reining creates pressure on the bars of the mouth and sides
                      of the face.
                      8) Leverage bits create pressure on the pole and chin.
                      9) Toys (crickets, rollers, keys) encourage tongue movement when played
                      with. It is very hard to keep your jaw stiff when your tongue is
                      moving. Try it.
                      10) Different metals have different tastes, strength, and ease of
                      hygiene.
                      11) Curved bar mouth pieces and wide lorts create room for the tongue
                      angling the bit such a Glory bit (curved bar mouth-piece set at 45
                      degrees from the shank) creates even more room.
                      12) I'm sure there are a lot of principles that I am forgetting.

                      Is everyone with me so far?
                      Else
                    • Else Hunrvogt
                      ... martingales. Some horses can go without them and others do better with them - Ebony is one of those. All horses are unfinished. There is always something
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                        --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, mark murphy <dkarp@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I am concerned about the 'unfinished' attitude as concerned
                        martingales. Some horses can go without them and others do better
                        with them - Ebony is one of those.

                        All horses are unfinished. There is always something to tweek -
                        that's why I said training aids and not gimmick's. My personal
                        thought is that in an ideal world I can control my horse with my
                        hands, my seat, my legs, and my voice.

                        I almost always train with a whip in hand (always when driving).
                        I rarely ride in spurs as it exacerbates my tendancy to toe out and
                        while riding English on <16 hand horses with single pricks I tend to
                        draw my heel up. The combination of the two creates more problems
                        than benefits.

                        I've used running, standing, german martingales; side, draw and
                        sliding side draw reins; Over and side checks. I try to bear in mind
                        what I'm trying to address with each of these items. When I have
                        accomplished me goal, I put them away. I have had horses where I
                        never reached that goal.

                        Crystal could care less if she had a nose band on her riding bridle
                        (they are part of the physics of making the driving bridle work). I,
                        however, think nosebands look nice on English bridles, so it stays
                        on. For her, a noseband is an accessory. Crystal's brother needed
                        his mouth clamped shut. For him a nose band was a training aid that
                        he never grew past.

                        A properly adjusted standing martingale isn't going to hurt any horse
                        or interfer with any training program. And yet it is not something
                        we routinely use on every horse (hands, seat, legs, and whip). Is it
                        a training aid or an accessory?


                        Else
                      • Else Hunrvogt
                        ... medieval ... to ... In my experience, snatching at the mouth makes the problem worse, not better. If raising the nose towards the horizontal, presses the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                          --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "la3luna" <la3luna@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I imagine that by their very design the "insanely high ported"
                          medieval
                          > bit would have deterred head tossing immediatly! Consider the abuse
                          to
                          > the tongue and roof of the mouth if the horse threw it's head and the
                          > leverage/weight of those shanks manipulated the port ever so skyward.

                          In my experience, snatching at the mouth makes the problem worse, not
                          better. If raising the nose towards the horizontal, presses the port
                          port on the roof of the mouth and applies pressure to the poll and
                          chin, I would expect that to increase the head tossing, as the horse
                          responds to the pressure/pain in an inappropriate manner.

                          The only success I've had with head tossers is either getting them to
                          move forward (keep them busy so they don't have time to toss their
                          heads) or tying their nose/mouth to their chest/shoulders (draw reins,
                          martingales etc.) My best long term success is when I can encourage
                          relaxation and encourage the horse to accept the situation.

                          I do agree that with trained horse, long shanked, high ported, heavy
                          bits with weighted reins are excellent for encouraging a vertical head
                          position. With untrained horses (especially those the lack back
                          strength) my experience is that similar bits send mixed signals and
                          thus encourage evasion/head tossing/coming behind the bit.

                          Else
                        • la3luna
                          Else, Yup, you seem to have covered the basic concepts very well. JoA ... wrote:
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                            Else,

                            Yup, you seem to have covered the basic concepts very well.


                            JoA

                            --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Else Hunrvogt"
                            <nancyreimers@...> wrote:
                            <SNIP>
                            > Is everyone with me so far?
                            > Else
                            >
                          • la3luna
                            Hi All, Aurora and Else bring along excellent points and what comes to mind is training aids as tools used intermittantly to achieve (hopefully) a training
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                              Hi All,

                              Aurora and Else bring along excellent points and what comes to mind
                              is training aids as "tools" used intermittantly to achieve
                              (hopefully) a training goal.

                              Aurora's comment on Eastern bitting shines a light on something I
                              often see but did not EVEN contemplate in this conversation. My mind
                              went right to Western European training conventions - as that is my
                              intrest. It is a facinating topic and really speaks volumes about how
                              training devices evolved to the job at hand. Now I am off to check
                              out this very topic - and if anyone has advice on a good source to
                              reasearch, let me know.

                              JoA

                              --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Else Hunrvogt"
                              <nancyreimers@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "la3luna" <la3luna@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I imagine that by their very design the "insanely high ported"
                              > medieval
                              > > bit would have deterred head tossing immediatly! Consider the
                              abuse
                              > to
                              > > the tongue and roof of the mouth if the horse threw it's head and
                              the
                              > > leverage/weight of those shanks manipulated the port ever so
                              skyward.
                              >
                              > In my experience, snatching at the mouth makes the problem worse,
                              not
                              > better. If raising the nose towards the horizontal, presses the
                              port
                              > port on the roof of the mouth and applies pressure to the poll and
                              > chin, I would expect that to increase the head tossing, as the
                              horse
                              > responds to the pressure/pain in an inappropriate manner.
                              >
                              > The only success I've had with head tossers is either getting them
                              to
                              > move forward (keep them busy so they don't have time to toss their
                              > heads) or tying their nose/mouth to their chest/shoulders (draw
                              reins,
                              > martingales etc.) My best long term success is when I can
                              encourage
                              > relaxation and encourage the horse to accept the situation.
                              >
                              > I do agree that with trained horse, long shanked, high ported,
                              heavy
                              > bits with weighted reins are excellent for encouraging a vertical
                              head
                              > position. With untrained horses (especially those the lack back
                              > strength) my experience is that similar bits send mixed signals and
                              > thus encourage evasion/head tossing/coming behind the bit.
                              >
                              > Else
                              >
                            • Aurora Komnenos
                              Bitting Guide: http://www.lesvogt.com/training_articles/bitting_guide.html Remember, I barrel race....in my world a martingale interferes with the lift on the
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                                 
                                 
                                Remember, I barrel race....in my world a martingale interferes with the lift on the bit for a turn in what we deem a "finished" horse.  If I need to lift the horse's shoulder a martingale imparts a downward direction on the bit and does not allow me to "pick up the shoulder".  However we start ours in martingales - I usually use a running martingale, but have also used a german one when that particular horse requests it <G>.   We tend to go from a snaffle (split mouthpiece, not solid - our race horses use solid - usually a big fat rubber bar)  go from round ring to a Dee and then to a "tom thumb snaffle" (basically a split snaffle with a short shank and a short leverage ratio).  In and amongst all of those snaffles, if need be, I can use a twisted wire, a double twisted wire, etc.  I use very long split "breaking" reins.  These are the reins folks that were at last falls Equestrium saw me riding Firecracker & Sipper in (they are very long, reaching my feet).  These reins allow me to "bit" the horse up for suppling (i.e. I may bit to left, the right, straight back.  Bitting to the side may be to the D ring behind the cantle, or maybe the tail.  You do not want to leave the horse this way for more than a couple of minutes as you can make them sore....)  The long reins allow me to encourage a young horse to pick up a gait or maybe to deal with water, etc.  Once I don't need any of the utility of the long reins with that horse, I move to a round rein (a single rein).
                                 
                                There are finished horses and unfinished horses, it's merely a description of where an animal is at on it's training journey. A finished horse has the strength and the training to perform in its chosen field while wearing the ideal tack. Ideal tack is going to vary by discipline and where the horse is at in it's training; I have never experienced, nor ever felt that anyone is ever looking down upon any one due to the use, or non-use, of a particular item.
                                 
                                 - Aurora
                                 
                                 

                                From: mark murphy [mailto:dkarp@...]
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:37 PM
                                To: komitissa@...; WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Training Aids in Period

                                I am concerned about the 'unfinished' attitude as concerned martingales. Some horses can go without them and others do better with them - Ebony is one of those. I have ridden him both with and without in all sorts of circumstances but found him to be more relaxed with a standing martingale. he is the first horse I avhe ever owned that did better with one, despite training.

                                I ahve 2 horses that need low port curbs with short shanks - they both run right through a snaffle mouth - even a snaffle pelham is useless with them. Put them in a weymouth and they both relax and focus - and get much lighter in my hand..

                                What the horse needs is what the horse needs. I would hate to have somone think that they will be looked down upon because they put their horse in equipment which worked for them. Not everyone gets a horse from the ground up - and even then not all of them will go in a snaffle bit .

                                Sns
                              • mark murphy
                                ... medieval bit would have deterred head tossing immediatly! Consider the abuse to the tongue and roof of the mouth Else decided a quick side thread on bits
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                                  Julianna said:

                                  --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "la3luna" <la3luna@...> wrote:
                                  > I imagine that by their very design the "insanely high ported"
                                  medieval bit would have deterred head tossing immediatly! Consider
                                  the abuse
                                  to the tongue and roof of the mouth


                                  Else decided a quick side thread on bits and bitting might be in
                                  order.

                                  Rule #1 - Any bit is only as harsh or a soft as the hands attached to
                                  it.
                                  2) With enough leverage and a strong curb chain, you can fracture a
                                  jaw.

                                  Siobhan says:

                                  I agree with both of you. In the wrong hands, any bit hurts. I have
                                  very good hands but not, I think, good enough for a spade bit - which
                                  is supposed to be used by highly trained riders. The best ones use
                                  thin silk reins!

                                  SnS
                                • mark murphy
                                  A properly adjusted standing martingale isn t going to hurt any horse or interfer with any training program. And yet it is not something we routinely use on
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                                    A properly adjusted standing martingale isn't going to hurt any horse
                                    or interfer with any training program. And yet it is not something
                                    we routinely use on every horse (hands, seat, legs, and whip). Is it
                                    a training aid or an accessory?


                                    Else



                                    Humm - a training aid or a necessary piece of equipment for that horse
                                    (when you have decided they are not going to ever not need it) but, to
                                    me, an accessory is a fancy browband - oh, wait, it is a necessary
                                    piece of equipment in a saddleseat class

                                    I give up - (grin)

                                    SnS
                                  • Aurora Komnenos
                                    Oh, I guess I should specify a little further...while I m training a horse and patterning they are very likely in a martingale...my references to lifting the
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                                      Oh, I guess I should specify a little further...while I'm training a horse and patterning they are very likely in a martingale...my references to lifting the shoulder etc and the mechanics of the martingale not working for the particular sport are referring to a horse that is at a point where speed is being added.


                                      From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aurora Komnenos
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 7:23 PM
                                      To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Training Aids in Period

                                       
                                       
                                      Remember, I barrel race....in my world a martingale interferes with the lift on the bit for a turn in what we deem a "finished" horse.  If I need to lift the horse's shoulder a martingale imparts a downward direction on the bit and does not allow me to "pick up the shoulder".  However we start ours in martingales - I usually use a running martingale, but have also used a german one when that particular horse requests it <G>.   We tend to go from a snaffle (split mouthpiece, not solid - our race horses use solid - usually a big fat rubber bar)  go from round ring to a Dee and then to a "tom thumb snaffle" (basically a split snaffle with a short shank and a short leverage ratio).  In and amongst all of those snaffles, if need be, I can use a twisted wire, a double twisted wire, etc.  I use very long split "breaking" reins.  These are the reins folks that were at last falls Equestrium saw me riding Firecracker & Sipper in (they are very long, reaching my feet).  These reins allow me to "bit" the horse up for suppling (i.e. I may bit to left, the right, straight back.  Bitting to the side may be to the D ring behind the cantle, or maybe the tail.  You do not want to leave the horse this way for more than a couple of minutes as you can make them sore....)  The long reins allow me to encourage a young horse to pick up a gait or maybe to deal with water, etc.  Once I don't need any of the utility of the long reins with that horse, I move to a round rein (a single rein).
                                       
                                      There are finished horses and unfinished horses, it's merely a description of where an animal is at on it's training journey. A finished horse has the strength and the training to perform in its chosen field while wearing the ideal tack. Ideal tack is going to vary by discipline and where the horse is at in it's training; I have never experienced, nor ever felt that anyone is ever looking down upon any one due to the use, or non-use, of a particular item.
                                       
                                       - Aurora
                                       

                                       

                                      From: mark murphy [mailto:dkarp@ hughes.net]
                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:37 PM
                                      To: komitissa@yahoo. com; WestKingdomEQ@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Subject: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Training Aids in Period

                                      I am concerned about the 'unfinished' attitude as concerned martingales. Some horses can go without them and others do better with them - Ebony is one of those. I have ridden him both with and without in all sorts of circumstances but found him to be more relaxed with a standing martingale. he is the first horse I avhe ever owned that did better with one, despite training.

                                      I ahve 2 horses that need low port curbs with short shanks - they both run right through a snaffle mouth - even a snaffle pelham is useless with them. Put them in a weymouth and they both relax and focus - and get much lighter in my hand..

                                      What the horse needs is what the horse needs. I would hate to have somone think that they will be looked down upon because they put their horse in equipment which worked for them. Not everyone gets a horse from the ground up - and even then not all of them will go in a snaffle bit .

                                      Sns

                                    • mark murphy
                                      ... all western europe...eastern stuff tends to still all be snaffle bits - I wonder what that tells us about training techniques... Arab historians in the 3rd
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                                        >As to the bits - remember those high ported things are
                                        all western europe...eastern stuff tends to still all be snaffle bits - I wonder
                                        what that tells us about training techniques...

                                        Arab historians in the 3rd crusade
                                        commented in an appalled fashion on the poorly trained /frankish horses

                                        Xenophan discusses horse training - you would think the book was written last year.

                                        SnS
                                      • Aurora Komnenos
                                        Out of curiosity which disciplines use thin silk reins? most spade bit use I m familiar with has been the Vaquero s and they use a mecate (mane hair) rein on
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                                          Out of curiosity which disciplines use thin silk reins?  most spade bit use I'm familiar with has been the Vaquero's and they use a mecate (mane hair) rein on the bosal and a rawhide rein on the bit....  The mecate rein is wide and I wouldn't describe it as thin...probably somewhere in the neighborhood of a quarter inch after the hair was spun and braided...
                                           
                                          I bet silk feels nice in the hands....
                                           - A


                                          From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mark murphy
                                          Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 7:35 PM
                                          To: nancyreimers@...; WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Bits and Bitting was Training Aids

                                          Julianna said:

                                          --- In WestKingdomEQ@ yahoogroups. com, "la3luna" <la3luna@... > wrote:

                                          > I imagine that by their very
                                          design the "insanely high ported"
                                          medieval bit would have deterred head tossing immediatly! Consider
                                          the abuse
                                          to the tongue and roof of the mouth

                                          Else decided a quick side thread on bits and bitting might be in
                                          order.

                                          Rule #1 - Any bit is only as harsh or a soft as the hands attached to
                                          it.
                                          2) With enough leverage and a strong curb chain, you can fracture a
                                          jaw.

                                          Siobhan says:

                                          I agree with both of you. In the wrong hands, any bit hurts. I have
                                          very good hands but not, I think, good enough for a spade bit - which
                                          is supposed to be used by highly trained riders. The best ones use
                                          thin silk reins!

                                          SnS

                                        • Aurora Komnenos
                                          teeehehee -- getting your cobblestones out for around your hitching rail?? For those of you that haven t read Xenophon, you can find (I believe the title is)
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                                            teeehehee -- getting your cobblestones out for around your hitching rail??
                                             
                                            For those of you that haven't read Xenophon, you can find (I believe the title is) The Cavalry General as a free e-book download with a little searching on ebook sites.  It's well worth the read....


                                            From: mark murphy [mailto:dkarp@...]
                                            Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:02 PM
                                            To: komitissa@...; WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Training Aids in Period

                                            >As to the bits - remember those high ported things are
                                            all western europe...eastern stuff tends to still all be snaffle bits - I wonder
                                            what that tells us about training techniques...

                                            Arab historians in the 3rd crusade
                                            commented in an appalled fashion on the poorly trained /frankish horses

                                            Xenophan discusses horse training - you would think the book was written last year.

                                            SnS
                                          • mark murphy
                                            . A finished horse has the strength and the training to perform in its chosen field while wearing the ideal tack. Ideal tack is going to vary by discipline and
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                                              . A finished horse has the strength and the training to perform in its
                                              chosen field while wearing the ideal tack. Ideal tack is going to vary by
                                              discipline and where the horse is at in it's training; I have never
                                              experienced, nor ever felt that anyone is ever looking down upon any one
                                              due to the use, or non-use, of a particular item.

                                              Sorry - it was late and I may not ahve written that well. I did not meanto say you were looking downat anyone. However, the term 'finished' does not necessarily imply that to the avg rider. Most folks on this list ahve done little or no training of youngstock.

                                              SnS
                                            • mark murphy
                                              ... reins? most spade bit use I m familiar with has been the Vaquero s and they use a mecate (mane hair) rein on the bosal and a rawhide rein on the bit....
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                                                >Out of curiosity which disciplines use thin silk
                                                reins? most spade bit use I'm familiar with has been the Vaquero's
                                                and they use a mecate (mane hair) rein on the bosal and a rawhide rein on the
                                                bit.... T


                                                Again, not being clear - sigh. I have seen silk reins used at shows in a demonstration of how well trained the horse was. The silk would break if the rider actually had to apply much pressure.


                                                Pretty impressive to watch a horse doing complicated patterns

                                                SnS
                                              • Aurora Komnenos
                                                ah - Gotcha...that would have been very cool to have seen. _____ From: mark murphy [mailto:dkarp@hughes.net] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:37 PM To:
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 13, 2007
                                                  ah - Gotcha...that would have been very cool to have seen.


                                                  From: mark murphy [mailto:dkarp@...]
                                                  Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:37 PM
                                                  To: komitissa@...; WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: RE: [WestKingdomEQ] Bits and Bitting was Training Aids

                                                  >Out of curiosity which disciplines use thin silk
                                                  reins? most spade bit use I'm familiar with has been the Vaquero's
                                                  and they use a mecate (mane hair) rein on the bosal and a rawhide rein on the
                                                  bit.... T


                                                  Again, not being clear - sigh. I have seen silk reins used at shows in a demonstration of how well trained the horse was. The silk would break if the rider actually had to apply much pressure.


                                                  Pretty impressive to watch a horse doing complicated patterns

                                                  SnS
                                                • Rachael Keish
                                                  ... all western europe...eastern stuff tends to still all be snaffle bits - I wonder what that tells us about training techniques... We did a western Europe
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 16, 2007
                                                    >As to the bits - remember those high ported things are
                                                    all western europe...eastern stuff tends to still all be snaffle bits - I wonder
                                                    what that tells us about training techniques...
                                                    We did a western Europe trip 5 years ago, and an eastern one 2 years ago, where I took as many pictures of tack as I could find museums.  Unfortunately, i didn't take great notes on what was from when, rushing through with the tours as we were.  But when I get back to CA (in Kansas now) I'll try to check through my pictures and let you know on throat latches and bits, as I don't recall there being a striking difference in bits from east to west, but its been a long time!
                                                     
                                                    One reason for a difference in bitting & technique could be that the Hungarians (Magyars) are actually Mongols from the steppes, who decided they liked it there and would Christianize and stay.  Their horse culture would have been entirely different from th 'western' european influences, so it makes sense.  To this day, very few people speak Hungarian who are not from there, because it is so different from all of the other eastern european languages.
                                                     


                                                     
                                                    On 9/13/07, mark murphy <dkarp@...> wrote:
                                                    >As to the bits - remember those high ported things are
                                                    all western europe...eastern stuff tends to still all be snaffle bits - I wonder
                                                    what that tells us about training techniques...

                                                    Arab historians in the 3rd crusade
                                                    commented in an appalled fashion on the poorly trained /frankish horses

                                                    Xenophan discusses horse training - you would think the book was written last year.

                                                    SnS

                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.