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Equipment Standards for practice sets

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  • Bjorn
    I was going through the West Kingdom manual and was wondering on the following... Is there any limitation on the type of materials you use to build the
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 4 10:13 AM
      I was going through the West Kingdom manual and was wondering on the
      following...

      Is there any limitation on the type of materials you use to build the
      (heads/reeds and ring) equipment? bases and height/width? I was
      checking out some pictures of other realms set ups and they all looked
      different.. (ie some were wood, some were very tall, others used jump
      bases... )

      Anyone have any experience on what worked best? Ie Held up and looked
      good, ease to move, or definate no no's?

      Flopping around as we try to get our practice kits setup.

      Bjorn of Velikiy Novgorod
    • Henrik Olsgaard
      This question brings up a point which I feel is too often overlooked, and which I wish to present for further discussions and hopefully actions too. In regards
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 4 10:09 PM

        This question brings up a point which I feel is too often overlooked, and which I wish to present for further discussions and hopefully actions too.

        In regards to the equipment we use for equastrian activities, my own preference is to make equipment from sturdy materials and engineer them to be simple and reliable to use under most if not all conditions. When these criteria are met as well as possible, I like to see them appear as non modern as possible. For permanent installations in a single location such as private property, this makes it possible to use period types of materials such as heavy wooden timbers and metal componants where possible. For portable equipment which will be used at a multiplicity of locations in all sorts of weather and location variances, designs which accomodate these variables as well as possible are preferable.

        I shold point out all this discussion is done with the implicit understanding that SAFETY OF HORSES AND PEOPLE IS PARAMOUNT! Any decisions as to what designs and materials to use should be done so only after safety issues will be completely guaranteed at ALL TIMES in the consideration and decisions of what designs and materials will be used. If adequate safety for both the horses and riders and spectators can't be adequately assured, then the event should not be allowed to take place!

        In my opinion, designs of games and equipment should reflect as much as possible the historical activities we are trying to recreate, but with safety being the only modifier in determining the actual equipment designs used. Just as rattan is used to make swords for armed combat in the lists , with similar demensions to the original steel swords, so too should lances and shields and other features of equestrian martial gear be replicated as much as possible. When target areas are to be determined, they should be selected with consideration of the reality of real target areas, not convenient ones as determined by modern considerations of ease and comfort. Where riders are unable to use such equipment, accomodations for variations in strength, riding abilities and other appropriate considerations should apply as needed.  It may be necessary for cost of materials and abilities to make or buy necessary equipment, to modify the decisions on what designs are used for some practice equipment, but the goal of the Kingdom Office of Equestrian activities should be to acquire equipment that is as "authentic" ( ie-similar in dimension, weight and handling characteristics as real equipment of the time period being replicated)in characteristics, that looks to be as correct as possible, and train interested equestrians how to effectively use them in period style activities.

        Plastic and lightweight materials of marginal strength may be convenient to obtain , produce and use, but so too would foam boffer swords be in formal list combat. However that is not what is done in combat lists, why should it be so in the equestrian arena?

        In my opinion, interkingdom equestrian competitions should have a strong element of historical recreation and not just have games that WOULD NOT train a warrior very well ( if at all) for combat in an historical life or death situation- such as a real joust . The SCA is an organization which studies and tries to recreate the historical elements of the Middle Ages up to 1600AD, and playing games just for fun without considerations of the realities of the historical activities we are trying to safely recreate , fails to satisfy this purpose.

        (As an aside, let me say I am all in favor of learning elments of mounted combat , using all the materials and equipment we currently have available, but I see this not as an end, but as a beginning. We should be striving to advance the list and types of activities and the reality or replication of the appropriate gear and methods of using them as far as safety considerations will allow. What equestrians have done in the past, we should strive to do today or tomorrow. That is the envelope we should all be pushing!)

        Duke Henrik of Havn, KSCA, OL,OP,etc.

        ==================================================================

         

         


        From: "Bjorn" <deliriumskid@...>
        To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [WestKingdomEQ] Equipment Standards for practice sets
        Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:13:58 -0000

        I was going through the West Kingdom manual and was wondering on the
        following...

        Is there any limitation on the type of materials you use to build the
        (heads/reeds and ring) equipment? bases and height/width?  I was
        checking out some pictures of other realms set ups and they all looked
        different.. (ie some were wood, some were very tall, others used jump
        bases... )

        Anyone have any experience on what worked best? Ie Held up and looked
        good, ease to move, or definate no no's?

        Flopping around as we try to get our practice kits setup.

        Bjorn of Velikiy Novgorod





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      • Rachael Keish
        I agree that it s safety first, but after that - just like any fighter s kit - I think it is a matter of personal preference, and what works best for you in
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 5 6:59 PM
          I agree that it's safety first, but after that - just like any
          fighter's kit - I think it is a matter of personal preference, and
          what works best for you in your individuial situation, giving your
          best attempt at period appearing materials.

          >>In my opinion, designs of games and equipment should reflect as much
          as possible the historical activities we are trying to recreate, but
          with safety being the only modifier in determining the actual
          equipment designs used. <<
          While I agree with Henrik that we should certainly strive for period
          materials wherever feasible, I do not feel that safety is the only
          modifier.

          >>It may be necessary for cost of materials and abilities to make or
          buy necessary equipment, to modify the decisions on what designs are
          used for some practice equipment<<
          Exactly. Cost, ability to construct, ability/space to transport,
          availability of a storage area, availabilty of help to set it up and
          tear it down are all modifiers as to what you may want to make.

          >>but the goal of the Kingdom Office of Equestrian activities should
          be to acquire equipment that is as "authentic" ( ie-similar in
          dimension, weight and handling characteristics as real equipment of
          the time period being replicated)<<
          That implies that it is the responsibility of the KEO, and I disagree.
          I will heartily support individuals in making more period equipment
          as best I can. But I will not saddle this Kingdom office with heavy,
          bulky, metal and wood equiment, for all the reasons above. Wood is
          more costly, probably much heavier, looks the same at 10 feet, would
          requiremore space to transport (and I will not ask that anything be
          towed in the Kingdom trailer - we have issues getting the Kingdom
          regalia/trailer around as it is!!). There's not a good cost/benefit
          ratio there.

          I haven't even made Kingdom PVC equipment, as I am reluctant to add
          that much more stuff to the office (let alone make it out of wood!)

          If someone else would like to volunteer to make, maintain, and always
          transport wooden equipment to events, and a large group of someone's
          would like to volunteer to have a minimum of x number of people ready
          to help set it up and tear it down at every, then certainly let's make
          some, but until then, I won't be building/lufgging/maintaining it, or
          saddling the office with burdensome equipment and no way to move it.

          >>Plastic and lightweight materials of marginal strength may be
          convenient to obtain , produce and use, but so too would foam boffer
          swords be in formal list combat. However that is not what is done in
          combat lists, why should it be so in the equestrian arena?<<
          For the reasons I highlighted above. If folks have the means and way
          to transport more period appearing setup - GREAT!! Do so, but I
          (personally) don't want to inflict heavy-equipment setup on our
          volunteers. It's bad enough moving the light stuff around, let along
          metal and wood ones.

          So in answer to your question Bjorn, take a look at what other
          Kingdoms have done, pick a storage space, find transportation space
          (iof you plan to bring it to events/practices), set a budget that
          works for you, and go to town! My garage and my husbands power tools
          are available to help with whatever you decide on.
          :-), Marguerite



          On 8/4/05, Bjorn <deliriumskid@...> wrote:
          > I was going through the West Kingdom manual and was wondering on the
          > following...
          >
          > Is there any limitation on the type of materials you use to build the
          > (heads/reeds and ring) equipment? bases and height/width? I was
          > checking out some pictures of other realms set ups and they all looked
          > different.. (ie some were wood, some were very tall, others used jump
          > bases... )
          >
          > Anyone have any experience on what worked best? Ie Held up and looked
          > good, ease to move, or definate no no's?
          >
          > Flopping around as we try to get our practice kits setup.
          >
          > Bjorn of Velikiy Novgorod
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -------------------------------------------------
          > This is not an official SCA email list.
          >
          > -----------------------------------------
          > This email list is set up to make use of both the "Reply" button which replys directly to, and only to, the sender of that email; and the "Reply All" button which replys to all members of this list.
          >
          > ----------------------------------------
          > Check out our Web Page:
          > http://www.westkingdom.org/equestrian/
          >
          > Community email addresses:
          > Post message: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
          > Subscribe: WestKingdomEQ-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Unsubscribe: WestKingdomEQ-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > List owner: WestKingdomEQ-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Shortcut URL to this page:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WestKingdomEQ/
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Bjorn
          My question was on over-all dimensions. Seems to me that there is no definite specification. (I.e. as an engineer I am used to spec¡¦s, in the absence of
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 8 8:39 AM
            My question was on over-all dimensions. Seems to me that there is
            no definite specification. (I.e. as an engineer I am used to
            spec¡¦s, in the absence of them, I will make what works and functions
            best).

            As far as more period looking gear, yes I have to agree that would
            be nice. Yes I agree it should be the responsibility of the person
            whining about it. Could it be heavier then PVC, oh you bet. Yet, I
            think if you brought something cool to play with, the people would
            be there to help with it because they get to play with it tooļ.

            As far as more real feel, I think that can be baked into a more
            robust set.

            Corwyn and I are playing with the idea of making a head set, but
            more like piked heads to bash around.. ( I liked the idea of body
            sized mannequins you could bash their heads off of, but Corwyn said
            that was way to over PG.)...

            Yet for practice, as I discussed at the meeting, having a full set
            is not a requirement. What is a requirement for me is a cone course
            that I can work on with my horse for communication on maneuvering.
            What is nice though is if there are other people there who are
            playing too because then we could do boffer combat and joust runs...

            These two things are a little tough to practice at
            Ye¡¦ol¡¦stables...

            Which, speaking of.. Anyone interested in getting together this
            Saturday or Sunday to play boffer/joust runs ¡V mess around on the
            trails?? We can go to Ed Levin or depending on how many, at the
            SCCHA arena.

            Just a thought.

            Bjorn



            --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, Rachael Keish <rachaelo@a...>
            wrote:
            > I agree that it's safety first, but after that - just like any
            > fighter's kit - I think it is a matter of personal preference, and
            > what works best for you in your individuial situation, giving your
            > best attempt at period appearing materials.
            >
            > >>In my opinion, designs of games and equipment should reflect as
            much
            > as possible the historical activities we are trying to recreate,
            but
            > with safety being the only modifier in determining the actual
            > equipment designs used. <<
            > While I agree with Henrik that we should certainly strive for
            period
            > materials wherever feasible, I do not feel that safety is the only
            > modifier.
            >
            > >>It may be necessary for cost of materials and abilities to make
            or
            > buy necessary equipment, to modify the decisions on what designs
            are
            > used for some practice equipment<<
            > Exactly. Cost, ability to construct, ability/space to transport,
            > availability of a storage area, availabilty of help to set it up
            and
            > tear it down are all modifiers as to what you may want to make.
            >
            > >>but the goal of the Kingdom Office of Equestrian activities
            should
            > be to acquire equipment that is as "authentic" ( ie-similar in
            > dimension, weight and handling characteristics as real equipment of
            > the time period being replicated)<<
            > That implies that it is the responsibility of the KEO, and I
            disagree.
            > I will heartily support individuals in making more period
            equipment
            > as best I can. But I will not saddle this Kingdom office with
            heavy,
            > bulky, metal and wood equiment, for all the reasons above. Wood is
            > more costly, probably much heavier, looks the same at 10 feet,
            would
            > requiremore space to transport (and I will not ask that anything be
            > towed in the Kingdom trailer - we have issues getting the Kingdom
            > regalia/trailer around as it is!!). There's not a good
            cost/benefit
            > ratio there.
            >
            > I haven't even made Kingdom PVC equipment, as I am reluctant to add
            > that much more stuff to the office (let alone make it out of wood!)
            >
            > If someone else would like to volunteer to make, maintain, and
            always
            > transport wooden equipment to events, and a large group of
            someone's
            > would like to volunteer to have a minimum of x number of people
            ready
            > to help set it up and tear it down at every, then certainly let's
            make
            > some, but until then, I won't be building/lufgging/maintaining it,
            or
            > saddling the office with burdensome equipment and no way to move
            it.
            >
            > >>Plastic and lightweight materials of marginal strength may be
            > convenient to obtain , produce and use, but so too would foam
            boffer
            > swords be in formal list combat. However that is not what is done
            in
            > combat lists, why should it be so in the equestrian arena?<<
            > For the reasons I highlighted above. If folks have the means and
            way
            > to transport more period appearing setup - GREAT!! Do so, but I
            > (personally) don't want to inflict heavy-equipment setup on our
            > volunteers. It's bad enough moving the light stuff around, let
            along
            > metal and wood ones.
            >
            > So in answer to your question Bjorn, take a look at what other
            > Kingdoms have done, pick a storage space, find transportation space
            > (iof you plan to bring it to events/practices), set a budget that
            > works for you, and go to town! My garage and my husbands power
            tools
            > are available to help with whatever you decide on.
            > :-), Marguerite
            >
            >
            >
            > On 8/4/05, Bjorn <deliriumskid@y...> wrote:
            > > I was going through the West Kingdom manual and was wondering on
            the
            > > following...
            > >
            > > Is there any limitation on the type of materials you use to
            build the
            > > (heads/reeds and ring) equipment? bases and height/width? I was
            > > checking out some pictures of other realms set ups and they all
            looked
            > > different.. (ie some were wood, some were very tall, others used
            jump
            > > bases... )
            > >
            > > Anyone have any experience on what worked best? Ie Held up and
            looked
            > > good, ease to move, or definate no no's?
            > >
            > > Flopping around as we try to get our practice kits setup.
            > >
            > > Bjorn of Velikiy Novgorod
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -------------------------------------------------
            > > This is not an official SCA email list.
            > >
            > > -----------------------------------------
            > > This email list is set up to make use of both the "Reply" button
            which replys directly to, and only to, the sender of that email; and
            the "Reply All" button which replys to all members of this list.
            > >
            > > ----------------------------------------
            > > Check out our Web Page:
            > > http://www.westkingdom.org/equestrian/
            > >
            > > Community email addresses:
            > > Post message: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subscribe: WestKingdomEQ-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > Unsubscribe: WestKingdomEQ-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > List owner: WestKingdomEQ-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Shortcut URL to this page:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WestKingdomEQ/
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
          • Rachael Keish
            If you re looking for IKEqC games standard dimensions, the rings, reeds, and heads requirements are all on theur website at:
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 8 1:58 PM
              If you're looking for IKEqC games standard dimensions, the rings,
              reeds, and heads requirements are all on theur website at:
              http://www.animalhospitalonmidway.com/scaikeqc_index.html

              You have to click around a little to get to all the details though -
              there are some height requirements that are _not_ on the front page!

              >>Anyone interested in getting together this Saturday or Sunday to
              play boffer/joust runs ¡V mess around on the trails??<<
              I have to pack for Europe this weekend, sorry. You're welcome to
              borrow my games equipment while I'm away (Aug 20-Sept14th) if you want
              - we could meet at my barn Saturday sometime. Let me know!
              :-), Marguerite

              On 8/8/05, Bjorn <deliriumskid@...> wrote:
              > My question was on over-all dimensions. Seems to me that there is
              > no definite specification. (I.e. as an engineer I am used to
              > spec¡¦s, in the absence of them, I will make what works and functions
              > best).
              >
              > As far as more period looking gear, yes I have to agree that would
              > be nice. Yes I agree it should be the responsibility of the person
              > whining about it. Could it be heavier then PVC, oh you bet. Yet, I
              > think if you brought something cool to play with, the people would
              > be there to help with it because they get to play with it tooļ.
              >
              > As far as more real feel, I think that can be baked into a more
              > robust set.
              >
              > Corwyn and I are playing with the idea of making a head set, but
              > more like piked heads to bash around.. ( I liked the idea of body
              > sized mannequins you could bash their heads off of, but Corwyn said
              > that was way to over PG.)...
              >
              > Yet for practice, as I discussed at the meeting, having a full set
              > is not a requirement. What is a requirement for me is a cone course
              > that I can work on with my horse for communication on maneuvering.
              > What is nice though is if there are other people there who are
              > playing too because then we could do boffer combat and joust runs...
              >
              > These two things are a little tough to practice at
              > Ye¡¦ol¡¦stables...
              >
              > Which, speaking of.. Anyone interested in getting together this
              > Saturday or Sunday to play boffer/joust runs ¡V mess around on the
              > trails?? We can go to Ed Levin or depending on how many, at the
              > SCCHA arena.
              >
              > Just a thought.
              >
              > Bjorn
            • Dianne L Karp
              I agree. But, just as we let folks use plastic armor, we should also let folks use plastic for poles and for lances. It get folks started quickly. Once
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 9 11:02 AM
                I agree.  But, just as we let folks use plastic armor, we should also let folks use plastic for poles and for lances.    It get folks started quickly.
                 
                Once they have gotten started, we can encourage them towards more authentic equip.
                 
                SCA rules call for a jousting lance that is 10 feet long.  Table legs are NOT long enough for a 10 foot finished result without a great deal of modification.. Finding wooden dowel that is wide enough for a cardboard tube proved not possible quickly - and I needed lances quickly for the demo in Caid.
                 
                My lances are ABS plastic at the moment.  As I have the time, I will be working on making lances for foam jousting which work.  I have no easy access to a lathe so making a wooden hilt proved more difficualt than anticipated.
                 
                With time, we will improve.  Look at where we were with armor 25 years ago!
                 
                Siobhan n S
                 

                Plastic and lightweight materials of marginal strength may be convenient to obtain , produce and use, but so too would foam boffer swords be in formal list combat. However that is not what is done in combat lists, why should it be so in the equestrian arena?

                In my opinion, interkingdom equestrian competitions should have a strong element of historical recreation and not just have games that WOULD NOT train a warrior very well ( if at all) for combat in an historical life or death situation- such as a real joust . The SCA is an organization which studies and tries to recreate the historical elements of the Middle Ages up to 1600AD, and playing games just for fun without considerations of the realities of the historical activities we are trying to safely recreate , fails to satisfy this purpose.

                (As an aside, let me say I am all in favor of learning elments of mounted combat , using all the materials and equipment we currently have available, but I see this not as an end, but as a beginning. We should be striving to advance the list and types of activities and the reality or replication of the appropriate gear and methods of using them as far as safety considerations will allow. What equestrians have done in the past, we should strive to do today or tomorrow. That is the envelope we should all be pushing!)

                Duke Henrik of Havn, KSCA, OL,OP,etc.

                ==================================================================

                 

                 


                From: "Bjorn" <deliriumskid@...>
                To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [WestKingdomEQ] Equipment Standards for practice sets
                Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:13:58 -0000

                I was going through the West Kingdom manual and was wondering on the
                following...

                Is there any limitation on the type of materials you use to build the
                (heads/reeds and ring) equipment? bases and height/width?  I was
                checking out some pictures of other realms set ups and they all looked
                different.. (ie some were wood, some were very tall, others used jump
                bases... )

                Anyone have any experience on what worked best? Ie Held up and looked
                good, ease to move, or definate no no's?

                Flopping around as we try to get our practice kits setup.

                Bjorn of Velikiy Novgorod





                -------------------------------------------------
                This is not an official SCA email list.

                -----------------------------------------
                This email list is set up to make use of both the "Reply" button which replys directly to, and only to, the sender of that email; and the "Reply All" button which replys to all members of this list.

                ----------------------------------------
                Check out our Web Page:
                  http://www.westkingdom.org/equestrian/

                Community email addresses:
                  Post message: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                  Subscribe:    WestKingdomEQ-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Unsubscribe:  WestKingdomEQ-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  List owner:   WestKingdomEQ-owner@yahoogroups.com

                Shortcut URL to this page:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WestKingdomEQ/




                SPONSORED LINKS
                Society for creative anachronismMedieval costumeMedieval knights


                YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS





                 
              • Rachael Keish
                ... a great deal of modification.
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 9 6:10 PM
                  >>Table legs are NOT long enough for a 10 foot finished result without
                  a great deal of modification.<<
                  Umm, Not the case.

                  I handed out wooden jousting lance base parts (28 inch table leg and
                  metal counterweight) at cost (~$15) at the EQ meeting on Sunday, just
                  to be sure all the parts were readily available to people. I still
                  have supplies to make 4 of them.

                  All you need to get the required 10 ft. length is a three foot tip,
                  which I'm ordering 250 of so far - is anyone is interested? The more
                  we order, the cheaper they'll be!

                  :-), Marguerite
                • Patti
                  Hey there! ... Oh I think it is the case. I ve never had a table leg lance measure up to 8 feet yet and I have put together a couple of them using 28 table
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 9 7:42 PM
                    Hey there!

                    > Umm, Not the case.

                    Oh I think it is the case. I've never had a table leg lance measure
                    up to 8 feet yet and I have put together a couple of them using 28"
                    table leg joust. The lances typically came up 2' short when using
                    the 24" styro tips that we had previously ordered.

                    Lets check out the math.

                    Take a 28" table leg plus 60" cardboard tube and you get 7'4". This
                    is the length before they are shoved together. When you insert your
                    table leg into the tube you loose about 8 inches of table leg inside
                    the tube … so the actual length of the lance without the tip is
                    around 6'8".

                    Add the new 3' styro tip into cardboard tube and you are still
                    coming up short of 10 feet by at least 4 inches. This is only if you
                    ARE using a 60" tube. The majority of the tubes that fit the
                    required cardboard thickness are typically around 50" and 56" so
                    most Westie lances are/were falling into the 7'10" to 8'3" with our
                    old 24" tips inserted and now a foot longer with the new 3' tips. So
                    I think it is safe to say that our lances are still going to be
                    quite short of 10"

                    I hope I got all the conversions right!

                    I think some of the problems with getting hung up across the body is
                    due to people having to reach across the body to hit the shield with
                    the short lances. In some cases I think the lances were really short
                    (like 8') and nobody really noticed.

                    Just a thought
                  • Rachael Keish
                    ... inches of table leg insidethe tube … Add the new 3 styro tip into cardboard tube and you are still coming up short of 10 feet by at least 4 inches.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 10 11:00 AM
                      >>When you insert your table leg into the tube you loose about 8
                      inches of table leg insidethe tube … Add the new 3' styro tip into
                      cardboard tube and you are still
                      coming up short of 10 feet by at least 4 inches.<<
                      No, my table leg only goes 4 inches into the tube (the rules
                      *recommend* 6 inches, but it didn't seem to need it), and I have a
                      counterweight that adds a few inches to the back of the leg, so my
                      lances are EXACTLY 8 ft 7 inches fully assembled with tip - and should
                      be 9 ft. 7 inches with an exactly 3 ft. tip - I'll have to measure. I
                      could add a 3 inch fixture with a Fleur-de-lis on it to the back of
                      mine, I suppose! :-) The new tips will be 3 ft. 4 inches, by the
                      way, to allow 4 inches for insertion.

                      As Siobhan posted before we/Isolde aren't using a mocrometer here - a
                      few inches difference due to styrofoam insertion will be fine. But
                      the variance should only be a few inches. Again, the importance of
                      doing an armor inspection for everyone! Everybody makes mistakes, and
                      it was cetainly never my intent to do anything other than the handbook
                      (the rules ESPECIALLY apply to the KEO!)

                      I agree that the shorter lances may have added to the horse's shying
                      from the barrier and riders turning to "poke" problem - but is
                      negligible when you look at the length of a horse's stride!

                      Maybe what we should focus on is the conventions of our Western lists:
                      letting riders know that if they are in a pass and turn to make a hit
                      at more that 40 degrees at their opponent they will get a strike
                      against them, as it is unsafe and unchivalrous behavior. Abandon the
                      pass, and train your horse to move off your leg towards the barrier
                      and not shy from the opponent - but DO NOT turn to poke your opponent,
                      ever.

                      How's that sound for a good fix?
                      :-), Marguerite

                      On 8/9/05, Patti <la3luna@...> wrote:
                      > Hey there!
                      >
                      > > Umm, Not the case.
                      >
                      > Oh I think it is the case. I've never had a table leg lance measure
                      > up to 8 feet yet and I have put together a couple of them using 28"
                      > table leg joust. The lances typically came up 2' short when using
                      > the 24" styro tips that we had previously ordered.
                      >
                      > Lets check out the math.
                      >
                      > Take a 28" table leg plus 60" cardboard tube and you get 7'4". This
                      > is the length before they are shoved together. When you insert your
                      > table leg into the tube you loose about 8 inches of table leg inside
                      > the tube … so the actual length of the lance without the tip is
                      > around 6'8".
                      >
                      > Add the new 3' styro tip into cardboard tube and you are still
                      > coming up short of 10 feet by at least 4 inches. This is only if you
                      > ARE using a 60" tube. The majority of the tubes that fit the
                      > required cardboard thickness are typically around 50" and 56" so
                      > most Westie lances are/were falling into the 7'10" to 8'3" with our
                      > old 24" tips inserted and now a foot longer with the new 3' tips. So
                      > I think it is safe to say that our lances are still going to be
                      > quite short of 10"
                      >
                      > I hope I got all the conversions right!
                      >
                      > I think some of the problems with getting hung up across the body is
                      > due to people having to reach across the body to hit the shield with
                      > the short lances. In some cases I think the lances were really short
                      > (like 8') and nobody really noticed.
                      >
                      > Just a thought
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Dianne L Karp
                      I agree. One should never thrust the lance in an effort to reach someone out of range. I did that a few times while learning - it did not help and annoyed
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 10 12:15 PM
                        I agree. One should never 'thrust' the lance in an effort to reach
                        someone out of range. I did that a few times while learning - it did not
                        help and annoyed my horse since my weight was shifting suddenly.

                        SnS
                        >
                        > Maybe what we should focus on is the conventions of our Western lists:
                        > letting riders know that if they are in a pass and turn to make a hit
                        > at more that 40 degrees at their opponent they will get a strike
                        against them, as it is unsafe and unchivalrous behavior. Abandon the
                        pass, and train your horse to move off your leg towards the barrier
                        > and not shy from the opponent - but DO NOT turn to poke your opponent,
                        > ever.
                        >
                        > How's that sound for a good fix?
                        > :-), Marguerite
                        >
                        >
                      • equigal_99
                        ... more ... Word of caution...I ve had issues here with styrofoam wiggling when it gets longer than about 20 unless it s of a slightly denser construction.
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 11 2:33 PM
                          > All you need to get the required 10 ft. length is a three foot tip,
                          > which I'm ordering 250 of so far - is anyone is interested? The
                          more
                          > we order, the cheaper they'll be!
                          >
                          > :-), Marguerite

                          Word of caution...I've had issues here with styrofoam wiggling when
                          it gets longer than about 20" unless it's of a slightly denser
                          construction.

                          There is a HUGE variation between 2lb density foam depending on
                          manufacturer and style of manufacture. You may want to do a short
                          order first to make sure the 3ft tips will work for you from the
                          manufacturer you are using.

                          The 24" tips I have here are noticeably firmer in construction, with
                          smaller "bobbles" in the styro than the ones you graciously gifted me
                          with at Crown. My tips are more brittle and don't do that lovely
                          exploding thing that yours do but they also don't bend as much as
                          those you provided at Crown.

                          Incidentally, the square insulation foam that Illaria and Edward used
                          in their lances at Crown is more like the density of the tips I have.
                          You may want to compare how that material works in 3ft lengths
                          against the round styro tips before you spend a lot of $$ on 3ft
                          tips. Could be you'll have to spec a slightly denser/firmer styro so
                          the longer tips don't wiggle.

                          Oh, we painted the tips at the demo last weekend. It made life SOOOOO
                          much easier to have different colors. For once, even the audience
                          could see who broke a tip! Great idea, Westies, thanks!

                          ariadne
                        • Rachael Keish
                          ... Oops, too late. But I ordered the SCA standard 2 lb. density, so that should help. Steven of Beckenham, Elina of Beckenham and I tried 4 ft tips before,
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 11 2:54 PM
                            >>> Word of caution...I've had issues here with styrofoam wiggling when
                            > it gets longer than about 20" unless it's of a slightly denser
                            > construction.<<
                            Oops, too late. But I ordered the SCA standard 2 lb. density, so that should help.

                            Steven of Beckenham, Elina of Beckenham and I tried 4 ft tips before, way back when, and didn't
                            like those, but I thought 3 ft. was OK.  Guess we'll see!
                            :-), Marguerite
                          • Henrik Olsgaard
                            I agree that the KEO shouldn t be burdened or even the Kingdom at first, be burdened with authentic replicas of period equipment, but I think the office should
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 17 5:32 AM

                              I agree that the KEO shouldn't be burdened or even the Kingdom at first, be burdened with authentic replicas of period equipment, but I think the office should promote it's production and use, as much as it promotes the easy to get and use "stuff". If only plastic lances are discussed and plans are given then who will know much less bother with more authentic lances or armour or training activities, etc.? I think a clear call for research and demonstrations as well as competitions that produce knowledge and examples of replica artifacts, their use and also  cultural elements of the period that involve equestrian activities should at least be offered to the populace as well as the current slate of activities.

                              Since when is the goal of education and learning determined by cost/benefit ratios? It may be that funds aren't available to do things , but that dosen't mean they shouldn't be encouraged to be done by those who can. Why would someone want to make and learn to use some replica artifact if there wasn't a venue to do so because all the activities were geared to doing just the current activities and nothing more? Tilting with 10 foot lances only when 12 to 16 foot lances were historically used does not provide any education in their use. On the other hand if tilting with different lance lengths were at least given as an option as seperate activities, then those who wished to use longer lances could get together and do so. Right now that isn't possible in the SCA context. ( Now I am just using lance length here, as an example of my argument, not as a specific activity that a local KEO can't necessarily change unilateraly.) But a local KEO can designate that a certain portion of events will be allocated for "realistic" activities while the remainder can be used for non authentic activities. That way persons willing to autocrat or run period activities will have a better oportunity to promote them. Barding competitions can fulfill part of this "authentic" venue, but how many male riders can research and sew authentic pattern bardings? How many people can make authentic replica tack?

                               How can I, for instance hold a contest for ring tilting with only one ring standard, which is set to hold rings centered 90 inches above the ground  when the IKEQC specifications are to set three standards with rings at 78 inches above the ground? Unless I offer one or more  valuable prizes or other incentives, few participants are likely since it's not IKEQC. And how do I get to compete in such a competition unless I pay or otherwise convince others to hold such a competition for me? I don't care for the curent form of IKEQC very much because it seems biased primarily for horse owners who are mostly not fighters. I would like the IKEQC to also have competitions geared particularly for fighters who know how to ride but don't necessarily have their own horse. The competitions should rely less on fine horsemanship or speed, but should be based on potential success in real combat. Events such as double ring and double quintain "jousts" between two riders on either rental or strange horses for example would qualify. So too would power tilting at quintains where the force of the blow as well as accuracy was tested . Reed chopping with simulated swords ( such as wooden wasters) of "real" weight and balance instead of boffers is another event. Real tent pegging with soft wood pegs actually stuck in the ground is another. The premis could be that each competitor is mounted on a strange horse as a result of a battle loss of their own horse. Thus the requirement could be that all competitors not ride their own horse to compete. Then only the skill of the rider would be the determining factor as opposed to the training skill and riding skill of the horse and rider combination when riders own and train ( or have professionally trained by others) their own horse. Horses trained for gymkana events may give their owners unfair advantages over other riders on untrained horses - whether private or rental. Perhaps even the average score of three competitions on three different horses be used to determine standings.

                              If we non horse owners don't have any chance to win a few competitions against horse owners with well trained horses, then why should we bother entering any competition? At least in tournament lists the outcome is solely the result of a combination of the skill of each competitor and a bit of luck to boot. If you look at the IKEQC list of top scorers,I believe they are nearly all held by horse owners who were riding their own horses. Am I wrong in thinking this?

                              Just my 2 cents worth.

                              Henrik

                              ============================================================

                               

                              >>but the goal of the Kingdom Office of Equestrian activities should
                              be to acquire equipment that is as "authentic" ( ie-similar in
                              dimension, weight and handling characteristics as real equipment of
                              the time period being replicated)<<
                              That implies that it is the responsibility of the KEO, and I disagree.
                              I will heartily support individuals in making more period equipment
                              as best I can.  But I will not saddle this Kingdom office with heavy,
                              bulky, metal and wood equiment, for all the reasons above.  Wood is
                              more costly, probably much heavier, looks the same at 10 feet, would
                              requiremore space to transport (and I will not ask that anything be
                              towed in the Kingdom trailer - we have issues getting the Kingdom
                              regalia/trailer around as it is!!).  There's not a good cost/benefit
                              ratio there.

                            • Corwyn ap Rhys
                              I think both Marguerite and Henrik have good points here. The difference is that Marguerite is expressing a focus on the practicalities of making our
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 17 10:07 AM
                                I think both Marguerite and Henrik have good points here.

                                The difference is that Marguerite is expressing a focus on the
                                practicalities of making our recreation work on an ongoing basis
                                (the *how*) so that the barriers to success for organizers and
                                participants are low enough that it stays fun and we are able to
                                gather and maintain momentum as an organized activity.

                                To that end, many of her observations and ideas are oriented around
                                removing impediments and reducing requirements that don't involve
                                safety so that we can have more fun equestrian activities involving
                                more people and horses.

                                Henrik is focussing on *why* we do this: the romance and educational
                                discovery that come with participating in a truly compelling
                                recreation. That focus is also important. If it weren't; if
                                tilting plastic lances at PVC stands and swinging foam bats at
                                soccer balls was just fine, then we might as well all be off playing
                                Gymkhana. The truth is that the best quality recreation we can
                                muster really does matter to us. I know that personally, I'm here
                                because pvc ain't it for me. :)

                                In my experience, the problem of *how* is an easier problem to solve
                                than *why*. Participants whose imagination is captured by a rich
                                and rewarding reenactment are motivated to find ways to make it
                                easy, accessible and affordable. It's also easier to recruit new
                                folks if what they experience is as compelling as possible.

                                I know that if what I want to do is ride my pony around the poles a
                                few times, I can do that just by going down to the barn for
                                afternoon. I don't need to drag all the kit out, load the horse
                                trailer and drive for hours to the blistering barren plain of the
                                central valley.

                                Now, if what I want is to lead my band of raiders into an
                                unsuspecting camp and sweep down on them out of the night on my
                                trusty mongol pony, taking heads and dumping their tents in a heap
                                to be pillaged at my leisure, that's something I'm willing to do a
                                little more work for. :)

                                Speaking as someone who has spent many years armoring for and
                                fighting in the heavy lists of several kingdoms, I think equestrian
                                activities present a unique opportunity. We can build kit that
                                won't be destroyed beyond recognition after several months of
                                Tuesday practices. It's worth going to the extra effort to have
                                something nice because the safety guidelines we have so far set our
                                level of mayhem low enough that our gear can look stunning for years
                                if it is well made.

                                And let's face it. Whether you lease or own, equestrian activities
                                of any kind are horrendously expensive in this modern era. If cost
                                were a primary factor for us, we would be doing something else. So
                                we may as well treat our *medieval horsemanship* with the same
                                dedication, care and fiscal commitment we treat our *contemporary
                                horsemanship*. If we do, we'll get an even higher level of reward
                                from it.

                                So let's not close the door on better just because we have something
                                that works for now. Why not consider what we have now not as the
                                ideal but simply practical expedients that are waypoints on our
                                journey to create a much richer and more compelling recreation?

                                --- Corwyn ---
                              • Michael Canfield
                                Amen Corwyn! Corwyn s post really does a fine job of sepparating the How and the Why. It is something for us, as a group to think about. Lowest common
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 17 11:07 AM
                                  Amen Corwyn!
                                   
                                  Corwyn's post really does a fine job of sepparating the How and the Why.
                                  It is something for us, as a group to think about. Lowest common denominator is a good way to describe it! We have to be accessible to the masses...it is the only way to continue to grow and florish! This is DIFFICULT at best!
                                  It is clear to many of us that the "How" MUST come first if we are to continue to grow as a group. We develop standards and rules to provide a level of safety that you do not see in other equestrian activites in the mundane world. Still we have unauthroized dismounts at almost every gathering...it happens to both novie and experience riders too! No major injuries thank heavens but what we do in the arena has a certain level of danger. It elevates when you add the "part time renter" type rider who does not have the facility, or budget, to ride regularly, take lessons or practice. That is the cold, hard truth. The only way to improve horsemanship is to get your butt in the saddle regularly!
                                   
                                  The comment about expense is VERY,VERY valid.. if you don't get that, here is an exmaple:
                                  My lady and I OWN two horses. We ride about four to five times a week. We live in Hayward (Esfenn) and have to board our horses at a local facility. It is a nice facility and our horses get good care but it is not cheap (almost 400.00 per month), not to mention the caost of shoeing two horses every six weeks ($200.00) and vitamins, suppliments and the occastioanl vet visit (just had a colic emergenty before Crown...$400.00 vet visit). Add to that the initial cost of"mundane" tack (we ride western) and all the stuff needed to keep up the tack and the horse. Now add to that HUGE number the cost of a trailer purchase and all that this implies. Gas prices to haul to and from events in a big V-8 truck. is not cheap folks (as many of you know). Now add to this the time (spent away from the horses) to make barding and other "period" style equipment and, since we are not saddle/tack makers finding the money to attept to get saddles that look period. Frankly it is is daunting! Not to mention that we both fight-which entails the maintaining and upgrading of armor and gear (that too cost money) and I have squires to work with (again the time budget issue).
                                   
                                  So am I more inclided to opt for the least expensive way to participate...you darn tootin'! I applaude those that can afford to be more "period" but the REALITY is that wehave to do what we can with what we have.
                                   
                                  We also have to contend with RENTAL PRICES...those of us who have own or have been actuive horsement know that that the fees Jerry charge are more than resonable. You get some pretty bomb-proof, willing horses to PLAY GAMES on! How cool is that! But, as we know, getting folks to commit to taking the horse for a test drive and coming up iwth ahalf day rental fee is like pulling hen's teeth! The majority of the Populace can't justify the expense in their minds. Add to this the NO PRACTICE aspect and the fact that LESSONS, although they have been organized are not well attended.
                                   
                                  So..the HOW become the primary and NESSESSARY focus. It has to be given the condition noted above.
                                   
                                  The WHY is something a select few, who can make the time to deveop more period (yet safe) gear and TEST them out, train with them regularly and then go out and TEACH what they have learned can undetake. Those in this catagory MUST understand that they are in the vast minority and attempt to, by example and possitive attitude, inspire others to follow suit. They must also understand that, while the majority of the active and psudo-active horsement will admore and respect them for their efforts the "followers" will be few and far between simply because of the conditions noted above.
                                   
                                  It is a cold, hard truth that we all have to look at and deal with in our own way. I have stated this before and I think those newer to this group need to understand that "we happy few" who rescued and revived the EQ activites in this Kingdom have seen the group grow and develop by leaps and bounds! It was not that long ago that horses were NOT at ANY events! There were not EQ themed events! Jousting? On the Eric? What a concept? Now we are actively educating the populace (we do have classes set for Collegium, right?), hosting KINGDOM LEVEL EQ events...and jousting on the eric! Be thankful for the efforts of those who have worked so hard on your behalf so that you can discuss the concepts of lance length and the "periodness" of your gear. Thanki about it...saddle up...and drive on!
                                   
                                  Cheers!
                                   
                                  Richard de Camville
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: 08/17/2005 10:07:29 AM
                                  Subject: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Equipment Standards for practice sets

                                  I think both Marguerite and Henrik have good points here.

                                  The difference is that Marguerite is expressing a focus on the
                                  practicalities of making our recreation work on an ongoing basis
                                  (the *how*) so that the barriers to success for organizers and
                                  participants are low enough that it stays fun and we are able to
                                  gather and maintain momentum as an organized activity.

                                  To that end, many of her observations and ideas are oriented around
                                  removing impediments and reducing requirements that don't involve
                                  safety so that we can have more fun equestrian activities involving
                                  more people and horses.

                                  Henrik is focussing on *why* we do this: the romance and educational
                                  discovery that come with participating in a truly compelling
                                  recreation.  That focus is also important.  If it weren't; if
                                  tilting plastic lances at PVC stands and swinging foam bats at
                                  soccer balls was just fine, then we might as well all be off playing
                                  Gymkhana.  The truth is that the best quality recreation we can
                                  muster really does matter to us.  I know that personally, I'm here
                                  because pvc ain't it for me. :)

                                  In my experience, the problem of *how* is an easier problem to solve
                                  than *why*.  Participants whose imagination is captured by a rich
                                  and rewarding reenactment are motivated to find ways to make it
                                  easy, accessible and affordable.  It's also easier to recruit new
                                  folks if what they experience is as compelling as possible. 

                                  I know that if what I want to do is ride my pony around the poles a
                                  few times, I can do that just by going down to the barn for
                                  afternoon.  I don't need to drag all the kit out, load the horse
                                  trailer and drive for hours to the blistering barren plain of the
                                  central valley. 

                                  Now, if what I want is to lead my band of raiders into an
                                  unsuspecting camp and sweep down on them out of the night on my
                                  trusty mongol pony, taking heads and dumping their tents in a heap
                                  to be pillaged at my leisure, that's something I'm willing to do a
                                  little more work for. :)

                                  Speaking as someone who has spent many years armoring for and
                                  fighting in the heavy lists of several kingdoms, I think equestrian
                                  activities present a unique opportunity.  We can build kit that
                                  won't be destroyed beyond recognition after several months of
                                  Tuesday practices.  It's worth going to the extra effort to have
                                  something nice because the safety guidelines we have so far set our
                                  level of mayhem low enough that our gear can look stunning for years
                                  if it is well made.

                                  And let's face it.  Whether you lease or own, equestrian activities
                                  of any kind are horrendously expensive in this modern era.  If cost
                                  were a primary factor for us, we would be doing something else.  So
                                  we may as well treat our *medieval horsemanship* with the same
                                  dedication, care and fiscal commitment we treat our *contemporary
                                  horsemanship*.  If we do, we'll get an even higher level of reward
                                  from it.

                                  So let's not close the door on better just because we have something
                                  that works for now.  Why not consider what we have now not as the
                                  ideal but simply practical expedients that are waypoints on our
                                  journey to create a much richer and more compelling recreation?

                                     --- Corwyn ---








                                • Rachael Keish
                                  I agree completely with Henrik, and Corwyn - and will do all I can to promote BOTH the how and the why. We ceratimly shouldn t setle for carpet armor - but
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 17 11:57 AM
                                    I agree completely with Henrik, and Corwyn - and will do all I can to promote BOTH the "how" and the "why."  We ceratimly shouldn't setle for carpet armor - but if it gets you out there to get your feet wet prior to making your fully-authentic-researched-from-the-14th-century-archeological-dig armor rig, then I'll help with the carpet armor first, and ask how the latter is coming along later. ;-)
                                     
                                    >>Now we are actively educating the populace (we do have classes set for Collegium, right?), <<
                                    We are getting the classes together!  So far I have 4 classes volunteered for - anyone else care to share your research/projects with us??
                                     
                                    - Stephen de Caerleon-Wax Hardening Vamplates (no limit, no fee IF you bring your own leather, 8 oz recommended but up to 12 oz leather will work, $10 fee if he provides leather & RSVP required if you need him to bring it!)
                                     
                                    - Julianna: Jousting Lance Handling Techniques  (no limit, no fee) Bring your lances if you have one.
                                     
                                    - Siobhan: How to mke PVC Jousting Lances (no limit?  No fee?)

                                    - Marguerite: Antoine de Pluvinel's Le Maneige Royale (Where we will review the book and redact a period ballet du cheval (horse dancing!) no limit, no fee
                                     
                                    :-), Marguerite
                                  • Else Hunrvogt
                                    Someone asked earlier where Collegium was going to be. It is currently scheduled in Concord at the Same Elementary School where last spring was held.
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 17 7:43 PM
                                      Someone asked earlier where Collegium was going to be. It is currently
                                      scheduled in Concord at the Same Elementary School where last spring
                                      was held. Apparently there was a problem with the Sacramento site.

                                      Else

                                      http://phmoms.com/CollegiumOccidentalis.html
                                    • Else Hunrvogt
                                      Greetings Your Grace, Thank you for the thread starter. These words caught my eye last week, but I haven t had time to answer them until today… Duke Henrik
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Aug 22 5:20 PM
                                        Greetings Your Grace,

                                        Thank you for the thread starter. These words caught my eye last
                                        week, but I haven't had time to answer them until today…

                                        Duke Henrik Wrote (much snipping):
                                        Since when is the goal of education and learning determined by
                                        cost/benefit ratios? Why would someone want to make and learn to use
                                        some replica artifact if there wasn't a venue to do so because all
                                        the activities were geared to doing just the current activities and
                                        nothing more? How can I, for instance hold a contest for ring
                                        tilting with only one ring standard, which is set to hold rings
                                        centered 90 inches above the ground when the IKEQC specifications
                                        are to set three standards with rings at 78 inches above the ground?
                                        Unless I offer one or more valuable prizes or other incentives, few
                                        participants are likely since it's not IKEQC.

                                        Else responded:
                                        In terms of competition, I think you hit the nail on the head with
                                        your first question of "Since when is the goal of education and
                                        learning determined by cost/benefit ratios?" I would hope that most
                                        people compete with the goal of bettering their own personal best or
                                        improving their understanding of a practice. If the "$0.79 ribbon"
                                        or IKEQC ranking is the motivator then that competitor is missing the
                                        point of the SCA. Fortunately, I think most of the SCA riders are
                                        out there to have fun with their horses and learn a little in the
                                        process.

                                        Duke Henrik Wrote:
                                        Barding competitions can fulfill part of this "authentic" venue, but
                                        how many male riders can research and sew authentic pattern bardings?
                                        How many people can make authentic replica tack?

                                        Else responded:
                                        Your Grace, please don't sell those of your gender short. Most of
                                        the really skilled craftsman in metal and leather that I know have
                                        a "Y" chromosome. I know more than a few that "don't suck" with
                                        cloth as well. Trust me, if I ever get a period vehicle built, I'm
                                        sure my lord will be the one running the power tools.

                                        As anyone who grew up as a teenage girl in the horse world knows, it
                                        tends to be a female dominated scene. I'm not totally certain why.
                                        As a couple of my ex-boyfriends could tell you, it's a very target
                                        rich environment.

                                        Duke Henrik wrote:
                                        I don't care for the curent form of IKEQC very much because it seems
                                        biased primarily for horse owners who are mostly not fighters. I
                                        would like the IKEQC to also have competitions geared particularly
                                        for fighters who know how to ride but don't necessarily have their
                                        own horse. The competitions should rely less on fine horsemanship or
                                        speed, but should be based on potential success in real combat.
                                        Events such as double ring and double quintain "jousts" between two
                                        riders on either rental or strange horses for example would qualify.
                                        So too would power tilting at quintains where the force of the blow
                                        as well as accuracy was tested Then only the skill of the rider would
                                        be the determining factor as opposed to the training skill and riding
                                        skill of the horse and rider combination when riders own and train (
                                        or have professionally trained by others) their own horse.

                                        Else responded:
                                        I don't care for IKEQC either, but that is based on the fact that
                                        gymkhana was never my thing and I don't care how my scores compare
                                        with the rest of the known world. Now jousting and MCC have
                                        potential, if I can ever make it to an event where the Eq activities
                                        don't conflict with my 8,000 other commitments. 2008 perhaps?

                                        For the record I think encouraging fine horsemanship is always a
                                        worthy goal with in the horse world – mundane and SCA. In college, I
                                        competed on a draw riding equitation team (FWIW we went to the
                                        National Championships). Draw riding is an interesting proposition.
                                        We pulled names immediately before the event. There was a very brief
                                        description of the horse written down. We mounted, and rode our
                                        class. We didn't even get to walk around the warm up ring. We
                                        competed in judged as opposed to timed competitions. In general, if
                                        rider skill was vastly different, the better rider won regardless of
                                        horse skill. If rider skill was close, horse skill was the decider.

                                        I suspect that even on strange horses, the horse owner who rides
                                        daily is going to beat the fighter who only rides at events. Now
                                        among those who have ridden for years at a high level but don't ride
                                        daily anymore, the horse will make more of a difference. In the case
                                        of someone who only rides their own horse versus someone who worked
                                        in a sale barn and competed in draw riding, the field will be fairly
                                        level with no warm up. With warm up the rider used to different
                                        horses might have an edge.

                                        Duke Henrik wrote:
                                        If we non horse owners don't have any chance to win a few
                                        competitions against horse owners with well trained horses, then why
                                        should we bother entering any competition? At least in tournament
                                        lists the outcome is solely the result of a combination of the skill
                                        of each competitor and a bit of luck to boot.

                                        Else responded:
                                        A very wise man once said "Since when is the goal of education and
                                        learning determined by cost/benefit ratios?"

                                        In the tournament lists, we do not punish those who train. We do not
                                        punish those who practice with their own equipment. We do not punish
                                        those who adapt their equipment with in the rules to suit the goals
                                        and objectives of the game. By all means, hold some of the suggested
                                        competitions, they sound like fun and they sound like a different
                                        test of skills. But I think adapting the game solely, so that
                                        different people have a chance of winning is a faulty premise.

                                        If I ever authorized heavy, I would have a chance of drawing Gemini
                                        with his four black belts and one white belt. In combat archery, I
                                        might find myself across the field from Dauid who oh, actually does
                                        target practice with his war arrows and war bows (I still borrow a
                                        cross bow and bolts). On the rapier field, I face Coronado who has
                                        been fighting foil and epee longer than I have been capable of
                                        speech. Seeking to test different skills is great. Trying to
                                        handicap those of us who have ridden for years and those who put
                                        hours into their horses is a foolhardy mission. Skill is skill
                                        whether gained at fighter practice or in the riding arena.

                                        Else
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