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Re: balsa jousting???

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  • henrikofhavn
    I don t want to step on anyone s toes and mean no disrespect, and sincerely appologise if my comments do cause anyone discomfort. However at times I find it
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 2, 2012
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      I don't want to step on anyone's toes and mean no disrespect, and sincerely appologise if my comments do cause anyone discomfort.

      However at times I find it difficult to understand some people's comments on this list, due to their content of acronisms or "shortcut comments" that others more familiar with, or more schooled in the subject matter, understand, than I often do.

      With that disclaimer in mind, I would like to expand on Juliana's words below.

      Tilting or jousting, involves two opponants charging at each other with lances with the intent to strike the opposing rider's target (usually ecranch shield, in later period jousting forms, such as we are refering to here).

      Historically, tilting was first done head on, with the lances being aimed straight forward. Unfortunately for those involved, this frequently resulted in the horses and riders running head long into each other, with many injuries and some fatalities being a common result, even if both rider's lances missed hitting their targets.

      To prevent such accidental collision injuries, a barrier was used, so the horses were seperated by it and could only run past each other , while being on opposite sides of the it. However, with the riders no longer being straight in front of each other, they had to change where they aimed their lances, and turn them to the side so they pointed over the top of the barrier at the opposing rider's target.

      Now the mathematics of joisting dictate that the longer a jouster's lance is, the closer to straight forward it can be aimed and still have the tip hit the opponant's target, in a joust. This also means that more force is transfered to that impact, and this means the likelyhood of the tip breaking is greater too.

      However it is also obvious that the longer a lance is, the heavier it also becomes , and the more difficult it is to hold, raise and lower and aim at the target. So to compromise, and allow a lance to be both managable and still be able to reach it's target and hit with sufficient force to break thew tip, a typical jousting lance should be in the 11 feet long to 14 feet long range of lengths, with the longer lengths being more appropriate for stronger historical warriors and 11 to 12 feet being better suited for gamimg jousters like us.

      Lances much shorter than 11 feet, would need to be held more sideways, just in order to even reach a rider's target, as it passes on the far side of a barrier, and so is hardly suitable for bals tipped jousting.

      Unfortunately , when Equestrian rules within the SCA were first drafted by Countess Iseult, she quantified lance lengths used in lance work games at 9 feet ( still in IKEqC, I believe) and ended up setting a standard that was too easily acepted, since shorter lances are lighter and easier to manipulate. For a while lances over 9 feet long were not allowed by some Marshals untill I reminded Misteress Yasmina of the difficulty and she added longer lenghts specifically being permitted, in her rewriting of the Society Equestrian Manual which is now in force.

      Now when Juliana states that the lances are too long to work in Jean's covered arena in Browns Valley, she is refering to the clearance distance above a rider ( which I believe is around 10 feet above an average horse's back - that is the clear space between the saddle and the lowest cross beams of the wooden rafters, from which the roof structer of the covered arena is constructed, overhead) being less than the length needed for free use of an 11 to 12 foot long lance while riding an average horse, say about 15 hends tall.

      The form of holding a jousting lance that I believe Juliana was teaching, is a form that was used historically, and is commonly used outside the SCA, by modern competative jousters. It is a form that not only seems to lend itself to safer engagements today, but historically seems to be depicted in many period illustrations of jousters in the later middle ages.

      To use such form requires an overhead clearance of closer to 14 feet or possibly a bit more, above the saddle's height off the ground, and for a tall draft horse, it can possibly total as much as 20 or 21 feet from ground to the bottom of an overhead structure.


      I hope this helps clarify, for those who may not be quite sure of what was being refered to.

      Henrik

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++











      --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "juliana_of_avon" <la3luna@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hamish,
      >
      > Regarding Browns Valley. We found out that our 11.5'(+) jousting lances won't clear the joists at Jean's arena. I was on a 15.1hh horse. Otherwise, the site is splendid for everything else.
      >
      > YIS,
      >
      > Juliana
      >
      > --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, David Walters <wyllow@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Siobhan,
      > >  
      > > This sounds like a clinic I'd love to attend.  I'd be willing to cross the mountains if I found a carpool w/o horses, but if it was somethiung with any hamds on elements I'd likely only bring a horse if it was in  Brown's Valley or closer.  So once you provide a tentative location (or range of locations) and dates,
      > >  I'd be happy to let you know if I can commit to attending.
      > >  
      > > Thanks for looking into this..
      > > -Hamish
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Patti L. <la3luna@>
      > > To: Martha Bancroft <marti@>; "WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com" <WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:20 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: balsa jousting???
      > >
      > >
      > >  
      > >
      > > Hi Macha,
      > >
      > > Adding in some personal experiences here: I find the number of 10-12 Ground Crew per jouster to be exceptional. This is probably a full compliment for a Tournament scenario, but maybe quite a bit more than we would need for a practice situation.
      > >
      > > If I am in the armor I like to have 3 people there to assist me. I prefer to bring my own crew as some people are better at certain jobs than others. As Siobhan decides the details on her Clinic she can make all these decisions for the day. 
      > >
      > > YIS,
      > >
      > > Juliana
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Martha Bancroft <marti@>
      > > To: Dianne Karp <diannekarp@>
      > > Cc: juliana_of_avon <la3luna@>; West Kingdom EQ List <westkingdomeq@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:38 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: balsa jousting???
      > >
      > > Hi Siobhan,
      > > I'd like to advertise this to interested folks in An Tir - but will need specifics (dates/locations/costs/loaner or rental horses vs haul your own, loaner or rental gear).
      > >
      > > Current economic situations are having everyone prioritize - but a chance to learn as we in An Tir try to establish balsa jousting as a experiment may encourage some attendance.
      > >
      > > Thanks!
      > >
      > > Macha 
      > > (KEO, An Tir)
      > > PS My deputy for jousting, HL Guillaume, tells me that we need 10-12 ground crew for every balsa jouster. Observing at Gulf Wars, I suspect he is correct. Will this workshop also help encourage those folks? It appears to be so from your email below, but to have them also drive 12-30 hours from An Tir I would hope to have a more specific curriculum to use to entice them once your plans firm up.
      > >
      > > On Aug 27, 2012, at 7:28 PM, Dianne Karp wrote:
      > >  
      > > >Introducing folks to what balsa jousting is all about, what training they and their horse needs, how it is similar/different from foam lance, what is in it for them if they do not actively compete, a chance to see it occur and see the armor and weapons................ Siobhan
      > > >On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 8:21 AM, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >> 
      > > >>Hi, As always it will depend on the logistics and the details. :) What do you have in mind? Juliana --- In mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com, Dianne Karp <diannekarp@> wrote: > > Who, if anyone, is interested in learning about balsa jousting? This would > include folks who would like to know more about but might not want to > actually do it! > > I am beginning to organize a 'introduction clinic' with someone who has > done it for quite some time. > > Siobhan > > > > -- > Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP > Dianne Karp > -- Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OPDianne Karp
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • juliana_of_avon
      Henrick, EXACTLY! And thank you! For obvious reasons, I like to tilt the quintain with the lance I use for jousting. That evening at Jean s, as we played with
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 5, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Henrick,

        EXACTLY! And thank you!

        For obvious reasons, I like to tilt the quintain with the lance I use for jousting. That evening at Jean's, as we played with the shorter lances, the angle to the quintain became steeper and I quickly remembered why I use the longer lance.

        YIS,

        Juliana

        --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "henrikofhavn" <henriksd5@...> wrote:
        >
        > I don't want to step on anyone's toes and mean no disrespect, and sincerely appologise if my comments do cause anyone discomfort.
        >
        > However at times I find it difficult to understand some people's comments on this list, due to their content of acronisms or "shortcut comments" that others more familiar with, or more schooled in the subject matter, understand, than I often do.
        >
        > With that disclaimer in mind, I would like to expand on Juliana's words below.
        >
        > Tilting or jousting, involves two opponants charging at each other with lances with the intent to strike the opposing rider's target (usually ecranch shield, in later period jousting forms, such as we are refering to here).
        >
        > Historically, tilting was first done head on, with the lances being aimed straight forward. Unfortunately for those involved, this frequently resulted in the horses and riders running head long into each other, with many injuries and some fatalities being a common result, even if both rider's lances missed hitting their targets.
        >
        > To prevent such accidental collision injuries, a barrier was used, so the horses were seperated by it and could only run past each other , while being on opposite sides of the it. However, with the riders no longer being straight in front of each other, they had to change where they aimed their lances, and turn them to the side so they pointed over the top of the barrier at the opposing rider's target.
        >
        > Now the mathematics of joisting dictate that the longer a jouster's lance is, the closer to straight forward it can be aimed and still have the tip hit the opponant's target, in a joust. This also means that more force is transfered to that impact, and this means the likelyhood of the tip breaking is greater too.
        >
        > However it is also obvious that the longer a lance is, the heavier it also becomes , and the more difficult it is to hold, raise and lower and aim at the target. So to compromise, and allow a lance to be both managable and still be able to reach it's target and hit with sufficient force to break thew tip, a typical jousting lance should be in the 11 feet long to 14 feet long range of lengths, with the longer lengths being more appropriate for stronger historical warriors and 11 to 12 feet being better suited for gamimg jousters like us.
        >
        > Lances much shorter than 11 feet, would need to be held more sideways, just in order to even reach a rider's target, as it passes on the far side of a barrier, and so is hardly suitable for bals tipped jousting.
        >
        > Unfortunately , when Equestrian rules within the SCA were first drafted by Countess Iseult, she quantified lance lengths used in lance work games at 9 feet ( still in IKEqC, I believe) and ended up setting a standard that was too easily acepted, since shorter lances are lighter and easier to manipulate. For a while lances over 9 feet long were not allowed by some Marshals untill I reminded Misteress Yasmina of the difficulty and she added longer lenghts specifically being permitted, in her rewriting of the Society Equestrian Manual which is now in force.
        >
        > Now when Juliana states that the lances are too long to work in Jean's covered arena in Browns Valley, she is refering to the clearance distance above a rider ( which I believe is around 10 feet above an average horse's back - that is the clear space between the saddle and the lowest cross beams of the wooden rafters, from which the roof structer of the covered arena is constructed, overhead) being less than the length needed for free use of an 11 to 12 foot long lance while riding an average horse, say about 15 hends tall.
        >
        > The form of holding a jousting lance that I believe Juliana was teaching, is a form that was used historically, and is commonly used outside the SCA, by modern competative jousters. It is a form that not only seems to lend itself to safer engagements today, but historically seems to be depicted in many period illustrations of jousters in the later middle ages.
        >
        > To use such form requires an overhead clearance of closer to 14 feet or possibly a bit more, above the saddle's height off the ground, and for a tall draft horse, it can possibly total as much as 20 or 21 feet from ground to the bottom of an overhead structure.
        >
        >
        > I hope this helps clarify, for those who may not be quite sure of what was being refered to.
        >
        > Henrik
        >
        > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "juliana_of_avon" <la3luna@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hamish,
        > >
        > > Regarding Browns Valley. We found out that our 11.5'(+) jousting lances won't clear the joists at Jean's arena. I was on a 15.1hh horse. Otherwise, the site is splendid for everything else.
        > >
        > > YIS,
        > >
        > > Juliana
        > >
        > > --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, David Walters <wyllow@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Siobhan,
        > > >  
        > > > This sounds like a clinic I'd love to attend.  I'd be willing to cross the mountains if I found a carpool w/o horses, but if it was somethiung with any hamds on elements I'd likely only bring a horse if it was in  Brown's Valley or closer.  So once you provide a tentative location (or range of locations) and dates,
        > > >  I'd be happy to let you know if I can commit to attending.
        > > >  
        > > > Thanks for looking into this..
        > > > -Hamish
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: Patti L. <la3luna@>
        > > > To: Martha Bancroft <marti@>; "WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com" <WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:20 PM
        > > > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: balsa jousting???
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >  
        > > >
        > > > Hi Macha,
        > > >
        > > > Adding in some personal experiences here: I find the number of 10-12 Ground Crew per jouster to be exceptional. This is probably a full compliment for a Tournament scenario, but maybe quite a bit more than we would need for a practice situation.
        > > >
        > > > If I am in the armor I like to have 3 people there to assist me. I prefer to bring my own crew as some people are better at certain jobs than others. As Siobhan decides the details on her Clinic she can make all these decisions for the day. 
        > > >
        > > > YIS,
        > > >
        > > > Juliana
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: Martha Bancroft <marti@>
        > > > To: Dianne Karp <diannekarp@>
        > > > Cc: juliana_of_avon <la3luna@>; West Kingdom EQ List <westkingdomeq@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:38 AM
        > > > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: balsa jousting???
        > > >
        > > > Hi Siobhan,
        > > > I'd like to advertise this to interested folks in An Tir - but will need specifics (dates/locations/costs/loaner or rental horses vs haul your own, loaner or rental gear).
        > > >
        > > > Current economic situations are having everyone prioritize - but a chance to learn as we in An Tir try to establish balsa jousting as a experiment may encourage some attendance.
        > > >
        > > > Thanks!
        > > >
        > > > Macha 
        > > > (KEO, An Tir)
        > > > PS My deputy for jousting, HL Guillaume, tells me that we need 10-12 ground crew for every balsa jouster. Observing at Gulf Wars, I suspect he is correct. Will this workshop also help encourage those folks? It appears to be so from your email below, but to have them also drive 12-30 hours from An Tir I would hope to have a more specific curriculum to use to entice them once your plans firm up.
        > > >
        > > > On Aug 27, 2012, at 7:28 PM, Dianne Karp wrote:
        > > >  
        > > > >Introducing folks to what balsa jousting is all about, what training they and their horse needs, how it is similar/different from foam lance, what is in it for them if they do not actively compete, a chance to see it occur and see the armor and weapons................ Siobhan
        > > > >On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 8:21 AM, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >> 
        > > > >>Hi, As always it will depend on the logistics and the details. :) What do you have in mind? Juliana --- In mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com, Dianne Karp <diannekarp@> wrote: > > Who, if anyone, is interested in learning about balsa jousting? This would > include folks who would like to know more about but might not want to > actually do it! > > I am beginning to organize a 'introduction clinic' with someone who has > done it for quite some time. > > Siobhan > > > > -- > Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP > Dianne Karp > -- Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OPDianne Karp
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
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