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Hairy Horses & Getting More Horse Time...

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  • Michael Canfield
    Hi All... Happy Monday! 1) As we look out at the sunshine up here in the Sierra foothills we can see that our horses are shedding. Is there an interest in
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 11, 2011
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      Hi All...

      Happy Monday!

      1) As we look out at the sunshine up here in the Sierra foothills we can see that our horses are shedding.
      Is there an interest in collected said offerings and eventually auctioning off the bags of the stuff for period helm and gambeson linings again?
      Should we see if there is an interest from the wider Kingdom community?
      Just curious.

      2) At Equestrium we were asked by attendees about getting more horse exposure. We recommended lessons, local practices (SCA and mundane) and the usual suspects to help set folks on the path. We mentioned some upcoming events that horses will be present at (which is totally AWESOME). For the very new person Alloria and I are offering to have folks come up to our place to "meet, greet and begin the journey that is horsemanship". Any other suggestions? We all know the time, energy, dedication and expense involved. We all know that to really get into the art of horsemanship you need access on some level to a horse. Lessons are a must. Anything else we can recommend to folks? Did we effectively cover all the bases?

      Thanks all!

      RdC
    • Elsie
      Well, there are many worthy therapuetic riding programs that are looking for volunteers. They tend to have beginner suitable horses and many provide some
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 11, 2011
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        Well, there are many worthy therapuetic riding programs that are looking for volunteers. They tend to have beginner suitable horses and many provide some level of training.

        It won't get folks riding time, but it will get them horse handling hours. In the Gold Country, horses for healing comes to mind.

        http://horsesforhealing.org/VOLUNTEER.aspx

        Else
      • henrikofhavn
        i M INTERESTED IN GETTING A LOT OF HORSEHAIR. THE ONLY LIMITATION I HAVE IS I WANT IT COLLECTED FROM WASHED ANIMALS, SO IT S MINUS GROSS PLANT MATTER AND CAKED
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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          i'M INTERESTED IN GETTING A LOT OF HORSEHAIR. THE ONLY LIMITATION I HAVE IS I WANT IT COLLECTED FROM WASHED ANIMALS, SO IT'S MINUS GROSS PLANT MATTER AND CAKED DIRT AND MANURE. I DON'T MIND SOME DIRT, AS LONG AS IT IS MINOR IN QUANTITY. I PLAN TO STUFF A SEAT CUSHION AND OTHER SIMILAR ITEMS, SO i'D LIKE TO COLLEST A LOT , BUT AT A REASONABLE PRICE IF NOT FREE.

          ILL BE AT BELTANE AND CYNAGUA CORONET.

          Henrik

          ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        • Dianne Karp
          The problem is, of course, that horses do not wait until it is warm enough to bathe them before they start shedding. You can have all the shedded hair you
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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            The problem is, of course, that horses do not wait until it is warm enough to bathe them before they start shedding.  You can have  all the shedded hair you want from mine but you will need to put it in a net bag and wash it.  WE have had one day about 70 in the last 3 months over here.
             
            Siobhan


             
            On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 6:33 AM, henrikofhavn <henriksd5@...> wrote:
             


            i'M INTERESTED IN GETTING A LOT OF HORSEHAIR. THE ONLY LIMITATION I HAVE IS I WANT IT COLLECTED FROM WASHED ANIMALS, SO IT'S MINUS GROSS PLANT MATTER AND CAKED DIRT AND MANURE. I DON'T MIND SOME DIRT, AS LONG AS IT IS MINOR IN QUANTITY. I PLAN TO STUFF A SEAT CUSHION AND OTHER SIMILAR ITEMS, SO i'D LIKE TO COLLEST A LOT , BUT AT A REASONABLE PRICE IF NOT FREE.

            ILL BE AT BELTANE AND CYNAGUA CORONET.

            Henrik

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




            --
            Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP
            Dianne Karp

          • juliana_of_avon
            To echo Else, therapeutic riding programs are an AWESOME way for people to get horse experience. I volunteered at Ride to Walk (Placer County) for years while
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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              To echo Else, therapeutic riding programs are an AWESOME way for people to get horse experience. I volunteered at Ride to Walk (Placer County) for years while I was horseless and raising human smalls. It is a terrific way for people to get some "hands on" and provide a big service for Programs feeling the sting of funding cuts.

              "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@...> wrote:
              <snip> For the very new person Alloria and I are offering to have folks come up to our place to "meet, greet and begin the journey that is horsemanship". Any other suggestions? <snip>

              Regarding lessons. To all, please take the following in a helpful tone. I have been told that my postings on trying to get people going in the right direction "can sound negative". Being negative is not the intention here. I am trying to be proactive.

              Regarding suggestions - I will always suggest a well-respected Instructor/Trainer to new people and forgo doing that job myself. I do take people out for saddle time if I have a quiet horse available. But for verbally instructing the rank Beginner I find it best to suggest an experienced Professional. One that I feel comfortable recommending and one who will hopefully give the Beginner a solid start.


              With the help of a respected professional the Beginner can then decide if a horse is the right thing for them. Yes, they will spend money on lessons or possibly a lease. But that is a drop in the bucket compared to the pile of bills they can incur if they get all excited and rush out and buy a horse that is not appropriate for their level.

              As beginning level Instructors ourselves, please consider that in our enthusiasm to encourage people to learn of horses, we can turn people off with our lack of ability to explain (or teach) in a manner that is easily digestible and understood. Perhaps we lack the experience to know how to set up a plan for the Beginner. Perhaps we lack an understandable vocabulary. Or perhaps, in some cases our own lack of experience shows in the way we (inaccurately) demonstrate methods with horses.

              Teaching is truly an art and as a person who has taken decades of lessons I feel comfortable saying that we can HARM as much as we can HELP when we offer to take on the job of teaching Beginners. I have been set back on my personal road with horses many many times due to poor Instruction and bad Training.

              In the end I guess that this "plea" is not really about saving new people, but more about saving the horse. They say that 80% of all first-time horse owners end up selling (or dumping) their horses in the first 5 years. I have to say that seems very plausible as I have seen a lot of that myself. Without the help of a respected/reliable professional, a newbie will probably buy an animal/equipment that is not appropriate for them and have some really unpleasant experiences. The horse will also possibly suffer the plight of bad handling and benign neglect. I see a lot of pretty good horses who are not properly started, properly handled or properly managed. A good Instructor/Trainer to help guide the well-intentioned yet ignorant is paramount in my humble opinion.

              To me a good Instructor to suggest to a Beginner is someone with years in the Industry and a lengthy success record of students. Like a good Mechanic they often have a waiting list too! If they lack the experience in years then an active internship with a respected Instructor is also an indicator of a quality experience. Do not be swayed by a snazzy website or catchy trappings. Word-of-mouth in the horse Industry is still valid and a good gauge of what to expect in most cases.

              Now ... if the person "just wants to ride" then suggest a rental string.

              I hope that was not too painful? :-)

              YIS,

              Juliana


              --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Elsie" <nancyreimers@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well, there are many worthy therapuetic riding programs that are looking for volunteers. They tend to have beginner suitable horses and many provide some level of training.
              >
              > It won't get folks riding time, but it will get them horse handling hours. In the Gold Country, horses for healing comes to mind.
              >
              > http://horsesforhealing.org/VOLUNTEER.aspx
              >
              > Else
              >
            • Michael Canfield
              This is VERY well said Juliana! It is good for us all to be on the same page as we areg oing to get some questions about getting started for folks seeing our
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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                This is VERY well said Juliana!
                It is good for us all to be on the same page as we areg oing to get some questions about "getting started" for folks seeing our EQ activities at upcoming events.
                Just to be clear...Alloria and I have offered to let folks come up and learn how to groom, lead, tack and so on...really basic interaction stuff to get them intrested in stepping on the path. Hope that is very, very clear. Trainers are the BEST for helping a person improve themselves for sure! No doubt there! Finding one that "fits" can take a little time as communication style do vary but with each experience with a trainer comes knowledge, right? We should encourage new folks to "shop" for the right trainer and take time in the process. Heck if you pass on a night at the movies now-a-days you can afford a lesson!
                it seems that "as a body" we can introduce horsemanship on a non-itimidating level and encourage folks who really are interested to find a path that works for them. If we keep this "function" as part of our group I think we will do right by those genuinely interested. Knowlegde is power as the say and if we can guide those with real interest (not just pony rides...as Juliana stated, they can rent a horse for that) to a path that fits their needs we have done a wonderful thing!
                I am making notes form all the great suggestions. Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked questions of this nature.

                Cheers!

                RdC


                On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:

                 

                To echo Else, therapeutic riding programs are an AWESOME way for people to get horse experience. I volunteered at Ride to Walk (Placer County) for years while I was horseless and raising human smalls. It is a terrific way for people to get some "hands on" and provide a big service for Programs feeling the sting of funding cuts.

                "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@...> wrote:
                <snip> For the very new person Alloria and I are offering to have folks come up to our place to "meet, greet and begin the journey that is horsemanship". Any other suggestions? <snip>

                Regarding lessons. To all, please take the following in a helpful tone. I have been told that my postings on trying to get people going in the right direction "can sound negative". Being negative is not the intention here. I am trying to be proactive.

                Regarding suggestions - I will always suggest a well-respected Instructor/Trainer to new people and forgo doing that job myself. I do take people out for saddle time if I have a quiet horse available. But for verbally instructing the rank Beginner I find it best to suggest an experienced Professional. One that I feel comfortable recommending and one who will hopefully give the Beginner a solid start.

                With the help of a respected professional the Beginner can then decide if a horse is the right thing for them. Yes, they will spend money on lessons or possibly a lease. But that is a drop in the bucket compared to the pile of bills they can incur if they get all excited and rush out and buy a horse that is not appropriate for their level.

                As beginning level Instructors ourselves, please consider that in our enthusiasm to encourage people to learn of horses, we can turn people off with our lack of ability to explain (or teach) in a manner that is easily digestible and understood. Perhaps we lack the experience to know how to set up a plan for the Beginner. Perhaps we lack an understandable vocabulary. Or perhaps, in some cases our own lack of experience shows in the way we (inaccurately) demonstrate methods with horses.

                Teaching is truly an art and as a person who has taken decades of lessons I feel comfortable saying that we can HARM as much as we can HELP when we offer to take on the job of teaching Beginners. I have been set back on my personal road with horses many many times due to poor Instruction and bad Training.

                In the end I guess that this "plea" is not really about saving new people, but more about saving the horse. They say that 80% of all first-time horse owners end up selling (or dumping) their horses in the first 5 years. I have to say that seems very plausible as I have seen a lot of that myself. Without the help of a respected/reliable professional, a newbie will probably buy an animal/equipment that is not appropriate for them and have some really unpleasant experiences. The horse will also possibly suffer the plight of bad handling and benign neglect. I see a lot of pretty good horses who are not properly started, properly handled or properly managed. A good Instructor/Trainer to help guide the well-intentioned yet ignorant is paramount in my humble opinion.

                To me a good Instructor to suggest to a Beginner is someone with years in the Industry and a lengthy success record of students. Like a good Mechanic they often have a waiting list too! If they lack the experience in years then an active internship with a respected Instructor is also an indicator of a quality experience. Do not be swayed by a snazzy website or catchy trappings. Word-of-mouth in the horse Industry is still valid and a good gauge of what to expect in most cases.

                Now ... if the person "just wants to ride" then suggest a rental string.

                I hope that was not too painful? :-)

                YIS,

                Juliana

                --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Elsie" <nancyreimers@...> wrote:
                >
                > Well, there are many worthy therapuetic riding programs that are looking for volunteers. They tend to have beginner suitable horses and many provide some level of training.
                >
                > It won't get folks riding time, but it will get them horse handling hours. In the Gold Country, horses for healing comes to mind.
                >
                > http://horsesforhealing.org/VOLUNTEER.aspx
                >
                > Else
                >

              • juliana_of_avon
                Yea that was just my personal suggestion (as requested). Not aimed at anyone in particular. ~J
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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                  Yea that was just my personal suggestion (as requested). Not aimed at anyone in particular.
                  ~J
                • juliana_of_avon
                  Michael Canfield wrote: Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked questions of this nature. Just as an aside:
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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                    "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@...> wrote:
                    <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked questions of this nature.<snip>

                    Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.." statistic is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.

                    Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already understands this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a message to the Group at large. I think we should really support experienced hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.

                    ~J
                  • Michael Canfield
                    Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount of free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone else
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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                      Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount of free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone else feeling so inspired to create a handout...would run it by this group first for help with edits and suggestions. With all this wisdom, experience and "horse sence" the project could not fail (add herioc theme music here).
                      Good stuff!
                      This is shaping up to be a great EQ year for the SCA...lots going on!

                      On a side note...do we have a site for Fall Equestrium? The ONLY reason I ask is that the mundane horse club Alloria and I are part of is having a get together next week at a ranch/facility in Galt (I believe). Web site looks nice. never been there. www.mokelumneriverranch.com for those who care.

                      Cheers!

                      RdC

                      On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:

                       

                      "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@...> wrote:
                      <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked questions of this nature.<snip>

                      Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.." statistic is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.

                      Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already understands this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a message to the Group at large. I think we should really support experienced hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.

                      ~J

                    • Dianne Karp
                      It does look nice - was that a covered arena I saw in the back of one pic? I believe that Arianwyn is autocratting at the site in Lodi again. Siobhan ... --
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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                        It does look nice - was that a covered arena I saw in the back of one pic?
                         
                          I believe that Arianwyn is autocratting at the site in Lodi again.
                         
                        Siobhan
                        On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Michael Canfield <dcamville@...> wrote:
                         

                        Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount of free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone else feeling so inspired to create a handout...would run it by this group first for help with edits and suggestions. With all this wisdom, experience and "horse sence" the project could not fail (add herioc theme music here).
                        Good stuff!
                        This is shaping up to be a great EQ year for the SCA...lots going on!

                        On a side note...do we have a site for Fall Equestrium? The ONLY reason I ask is that the mundane horse club Alloria and I are part of is having a get together next week at a ranch/facility in Galt (I believe). Web site looks nice. never been there. www.mokelumneriverranch.com for those who care.

                        Cheers!

                        RdC

                        On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:

                         

                        "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@...> wrote:
                        <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked questions of this nature.<snip>

                        Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.." statistic is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.

                        Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already understands this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a message to the Group at large. I think we should really support experienced hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.

                        ~J




                        --
                        Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP
                        Dianne Karp

                      • Troy Griffith
                        I hope the reading list of recommended riding Masters I assembled did not break with the concept of “Be careful who you recommend.” ; William From:
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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                          I hope the reading list of recommended riding Masters I assembled did not break with the concept of “Be careful who you recommend.” ;>

                          William

                           

                          From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:39 PM
                          To: la3luna@...
                          Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...

                           

                           

                          Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount of free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone else feeling so inspired to create a handout...would run it by this group first for help with edits and suggestions. With all this wisdom, experience and "horse sence" the project could not fail (add herioc theme music here).
                          Good stuff!
                          This is shaping up to be a great EQ year for the SCA...lots going on!

                          On a side note...do we have a site for Fall Equestrium? The ONLY reason I ask is that the mundane horse club Alloria and I are part of is having a get together next week at a ranch/facility in Galt (I believe). Web site looks nice. never been there. www.mokelumneriverranch.com for those who care.

                          Cheers!

                          RdC

                          On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:

                           

                          "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@...> wrote:
                          <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked questions of this nature.<snip>

                          Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.." statistic is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.

                          Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already understands this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a message to the Group at large. I think we should really support experienced hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.

                          ~J

                        • Dianne Karp
                          As long as they are Ancient and Venerated, .................... Siobhan ... -- Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP Dianne Karp As long as they are Ancient and Venerated,
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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                            As long as they are Ancient and Venerated, ....................
                             
                             
                            Siobhan

                            On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@...> wrote:
                             

                            I hope the reading list of recommended riding Masters I assembled did not break with the concept of “Be careful who you recommend.” ;>

                            William

                             

                            From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                            Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:39 PM
                            To: la3luna@...
                            Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...

                             

                             

                            Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount of free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone else feeling so inspired to create a handout...would run it by this group first for help with edits and suggestions. With all this wisdom, experience and "horse sence" the project could not fail (add herioc theme music here).
                            Good stuff!
                            This is shaping up to be a great EQ year for the SCA...lots going on!

                            On a side note...do we have a site for Fall Equestrium? The ONLY reason I ask is that the mundane horse club Alloria and I are part of is having a get together next week at a ranch/facility in Galt (I believe). Web site looks nice. never been there. www.mokelumneriverranch.com for those who care.

                            Cheers!

                            RdC

                            On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:

                             

                            "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@...> wrote:
                            <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked questions of this nature.<snip>

                            Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.." statistic is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.

                            Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already understands this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a message to the Group at large. I think we should really support experienced hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.

                            ~J




                            --
                            Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP
                            Dianne Karp

                          • Rachael Keish
                            Heheh, yeah we may use period (or somewhat later that/out of period) references but OMG we certainly don t espouse many of their harsher their techniques! ...
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 12, 2011
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                              Heheh, yeah we may use period (or somewhat later that/out of period) references but OMG we certainly don't espouse many of their harsher their techniques! 
                              :-), Marguerite

                               
                              On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@...> wrote:


                              I hope the reading list of recommended riding Masters I assembled did not break with the concept of “Be careful who you recommend.” ;>

                              William

                               

                              From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                              Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:39 PM
                              To: la3luna@...
                              Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...

                               

                               

                              Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount of free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone else feeling so inspired to create a handout...would run it by this group first for help with edits and suggestions. With all this wisdom, experience and "horse sence" the project could not fail (add herioc theme music here).
                              Good stuff!
                              This is shaping up to be a great EQ year for the SCA...lots going on!

                              On a side note...do we have a site for Fall Equestrium? The ONLY reason I ask is that the mundane horse club Alloria and I are part of is having a get together next week at a ranch/facility in Galt (I believe). Web site looks nice. never been there. www.mokelumneriverranch.com for those who care.

                              Cheers!

                              RdC

                              On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:

                               

                              "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@...> wrote:
                              <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked questions of this nature.<snip>

                              Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.." statistic is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.

                              Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already understands this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a message to the Group at large. I think we should really support experienced hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.

                              ~J




                            • Troy Griffith
                              Which makes me ask, do you feel any of the masters, who s works I recommend, espouse harsh techniques in these works? I know it is commonly believed that
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                Which makes me ask, do you feel any of the masters, who’s works I recommend, espouse harsh techniques in these works? I know it is commonly believed that training methods of the past were abusive, and this is certainly true of the methods used by many, especially in the middle ages. The particular Master’s I reference were all famous for their love and respect of horses and for speaking out against harsh training methods, calling them counterproductive and cruel. From the Renaissance on, the methods of MANY Classical Masters were far more gentle than a vast number of trainers today, though some very famous ones still held on to earlier, more aggressive methods, and the works of these, I do not recommend. I realize the term harsh is relative and we all have our own opinion where the line should be drawn, so I am curious if you feel any of the methods put forward in these works to be too harsh?

                                For me personally, any method that causes the horse depart from a relaxed, flexible frame, is counterproductive. These means I try to use Classical methods that are anything but harsh. The key for me is to excursive self-control when it comes to anger, frustration, and ego  when working with horses and these are all warned against in the works I have recommended. If I am not remembering reading about harsher methods being instructed in any of these books, it may be because I dismissed them the moment I read them. ;> So it is possible there are such methods spoken of.

                                When reading these works, as with ANY books on horse training, I believe one should look closely at how the methods being espoused have, or fail to have, the “ring of truth”, based on my own understanding of horse training. Just because the person writing the book is well known or even famous, does not make what they say absolute gospel.  In other words, read with a critical eye and healthy skepticism and take nothing as truth that is not true to you.

                                William (An Tir)

                                 

                                From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rachael Keish
                                Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:47 PM
                                To: Troy Griffith
                                Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...

                                 

                                 

                                Heheh, yeah we may use period (or somewhat later that/out of period) references but OMG we certainly don't espouse many of their harsher their techniques! 
                                :-), Marguerite


                                 

                                On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@...> wrote:

                                 

                                I hope the reading list of recommended riding Masters I assembled did not break with the concept of “Be careful who you recommend.” ;>

                                William

                                 

                                From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                                Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:39 PM
                                To: la3luna@...
                                Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...

                                 

                                 

                                Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount of free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone else feeling so inspired to create a handout...would run it by this group first for help with edits and suggestions. With all this wisdom, experience and "horse sence" the project could not fail (add herioc theme music here).
                                Good stuff!
                                This is shaping up to be a great EQ year for the SCA...lots going on!

                                On a side note...do we have a site for Fall Equestrium? The ONLY reason I ask is that the mundane horse club Alloria and I are part of is having a get together next week at a ranch/facility in Galt (I believe). Web site looks nice. never been there. www.mokelumneriverranch.com for those who care.

                                Cheers!

                                RdC

                                On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:

                                 

                                "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@...> wrote:
                                <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked questions of this nature.<snip>

                                Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.." statistic is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.

                                Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already understands this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a message to the Group at large. I think we should really support experienced hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.

                                ~J

                                 

                                 


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                              • Sir William Brannan
                                Gotta love auto correct when typing earlier in the morning. Sheesh. I hope everyone can still make out what I was TRYING to say. ; William
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                  Gotta love auto correct when typing earlier in the morning. Sheesh. I hope everyone can still make out what I was TRYING to say. ;>

                                  William
                                • juliana_of_avon
                                  The majority of the Masters you have listed still warned against harsh methods but they still used whip and spur and other devices. True that they loved and
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                    The majority of "the Masters" you have listed still warned against harsh methods but they still used whip and spur and other devices. True that they loved and respected the horse, but they still needed to get the job done. Anything ouside of a stroll in the field is going to demand "some" level of harshness. Debating that is going to be a saga and do we really want to do that ... here?

                                    Regarding the snippet below.
                                    Maybe I am taking you too literal and I did not get to see your lecture so I am not sure how extensively you avoid tension in the horse. But without some amount of departure from a relaxed frame I have no idea how you expect to develop an equine athlete. Certainly one fit enough for an endeavor like Haute Ecole. Though I am sure the mind of man can imagine that it is possible. Though in practice the theory would begin to fall apart. Therefore I am fascinated. (I almost imagine the opulent Russian man <Tim Murphy> working out in the Direct TV Ads. "No pain.... no pain")

                                    Either way - this discussion is obviously not one for THIS BOARD since it can become a multi-headed Hydra and demand more time to read than any of us would wish to devote away from our other obligations. But certainly one for a long event and tea, in person. Yes?

                                    Cheers!

                                    Juliana


                                    --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:

                                    > For me personally, any method that causes the horse depart from a relaxed, flexible frame, is counterproductive. These means I try to use Classical
                                    > methods that are anything but harsh. The key for me is to excursive
                                    > self-control when it comes to anger, frustration, and ego when working with
                                    > horses and these are all warned against in the works I have recommended. <snip>
                                  • Dianne Karp
                                    Knowing William, I believe he does not disagree with disciplining the naughty horse. I think he is saying do not do it from anger/frustration . I agree - a
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                      Knowing William, I believe he does not disagree with disciplining the naughty horse.  I think he is saying 'do not do it from anger/frustration'. 

                                      I agree - a good discussion for tea and crumpets.  Hard to stand up and swing your arms around while shouting while drinking tea and eating crumpets - it makes a mess!

                                      Siobhan

                                      On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:01 AM, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      The majority of "the Masters" you have listed still warned against harsh methods but they still used whip and spur and other devices. True that they loved and respected the horse, but they still needed to get the job done. Anything ouside of a stroll in the field is going to demand "some" level of harshness. Debating that is going to be a saga and do we really want to do that ... here?

                                      Regarding the snippet below.
                                      Maybe I am taking you too literal and I did not get to see your lecture so I am not sure how extensively you avoid tension in the horse. But without some amount of departure from a relaxed frame I have no idea how you expect to develop an equine athlete. Certainly one fit enough for an endeavor like Haute Ecole. Though I am sure the mind of man can imagine that it is possible. Though in practice the theory would begin to fall apart. Therefore I am fascinated. (I almost imagine the opulent Russian man <Tim Murphy> working out in the Direct TV Ads. "No pain.... no pain")

                                      Either way - this discussion is obviously not one for THIS BOARD since it can become a multi-headed Hydra and demand more time to read than any of us would wish to devote away from our other obligations. But certainly one for a long event and tea, in person. Yes?

                                      Cheers!

                                      Juliana

                                      --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:

                                      > For me personally, any method that causes the horse depart from a relaxed, flexible frame, is counterproductive. These means I try to use Classical
                                      > methods that are anything but harsh. The key for me is to excursive
                                      > self-control when it comes to anger, frustration, and ego when working with
                                      > horses and these are all warned against in the works I have recommended. <snip>




                                      --
                                      Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP
                                      Dianne Karp

                                    • juliana_of_avon
                                      Siobhan, Mine was more of a comment about relaxation and development. Not about disciplining the naughty. ~J
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                        Siobhan,
                                        Mine was more of a comment about relaxation and development. Not about disciplining the naughty.

                                        ~J

                                        --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, Dianne Karp <diannekarp@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Knowing William, I believe he does not disagree with disciplining the
                                        > naughty horse. I think he is saying 'do not do it from anger/frustration'.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I agree - a good discussion for tea and crumpets. Hard to stand up and
                                        > swing your arms around while shouting while drinking tea and eating crumpets
                                        > - it makes a mess!
                                        >
                                        > Siobhan
                                        >
                                        > On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:01 AM, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > The majority of "the Masters" you have listed still warned against harsh
                                        > > methods but they still used whip and spur and other devices. True that they
                                        > > loved and respected the horse, but they still needed to get the job done.
                                        > > Anything ouside of a stroll in the field is going to demand "some" level of
                                        > > harshness. Debating that is going to be a saga and do we really want to do
                                        > > that ... here?
                                        > >
                                        > > Regarding the snippet below.
                                        > > Maybe I am taking you too literal and I did not get to see your lecture so
                                        > > I am not sure how extensively you avoid tension in the horse. But without
                                        > > some amount of departure from a relaxed frame I have no idea how you expect
                                        > > to develop an equine athlete. Certainly one fit enough for an endeavor like
                                        > > Haute Ecole. Though I am sure the mind of man can imagine that it is
                                        > > possible. Though in practice the theory would begin to fall apart. Therefore
                                        > > I am fascinated. (I almost imagine the opulent Russian man <Tim Murphy>
                                        > > working out in the Direct TV Ads. "No pain.... no pain")
                                        > >
                                        > > Either way - this discussion is obviously not one for THIS BOARD since it
                                        > > can become a multi-headed Hydra and demand more time to read than any of us
                                        > > would wish to devote away from our other obligations. But certainly one for
                                        > > a long event and tea, in person. Yes?
                                        > >
                                        > > Cheers!
                                        > >
                                        > > Juliana
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > For me personally, any method that causes the horse depart from a
                                        > > relaxed, flexible frame, is counterproductive. These means I try to use
                                        > > Classical
                                        > > > methods that are anything but harsh. The key for me is to excursive
                                        > > > self-control when it comes to anger, frustration, and ego when working
                                        > > with
                                        > > > horses and these are all warned against in the works I have recommended.
                                        > > <snip>
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP
                                        > Dianne Karp
                                        >
                                      • Dianne Karp
                                        Ahhhh. Good point. S ... -- Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP Dianne Karp
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                          Ahhhh. Good point.

                                          S

                                          On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:19 AM, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          Siobhan,
                                          Mine was more of a comment about relaxation and development. Not about disciplining the naughty.

                                          ~J

                                          --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, Dianne Karp <diannekarp@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Knowing William, I believe he does not disagree with disciplining the
                                          > naughty horse. I think he is saying 'do not do it from anger/frustration'.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I agree - a good discussion for tea and crumpets. Hard to stand up and
                                          > swing your arms around while shouting while drinking tea and eating crumpets
                                          > - it makes a mess!
                                          >
                                          > Siobhan
                                          >
                                          > On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:01 AM, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > The majority of "the Masters" you have listed still warned against harsh
                                          > > methods but they still used whip and spur and other devices. True that they
                                          > > loved and respected the horse, but they still needed to get the job done.
                                          > > Anything ouside of a stroll in the field is going to demand "some" level of
                                          > > harshness. Debating that is going to be a saga and do we really want to do
                                          > > that ... here?
                                          > >
                                          > > Regarding the snippet below.
                                          > > Maybe I am taking you too literal and I did not get to see your lecture so
                                          > > I am not sure how extensively you avoid tension in the horse. But without
                                          > > some amount of departure from a relaxed frame I have no idea how you expect
                                          > > to develop an equine athlete. Certainly one fit enough for an endeavor like
                                          > > Haute Ecole. Though I am sure the mind of man can imagine that it is
                                          > > possible. Though in practice the theory would begin to fall apart. Therefore
                                          > > I am fascinated. (I almost imagine the opulent Russian man <Tim Murphy>
                                          > > working out in the Direct TV Ads. "No pain.... no pain")
                                          > >
                                          > > Either way - this discussion is obviously not one for THIS BOARD since it
                                          > > can become a multi-headed Hydra and demand more time to read than any of us
                                          > > would wish to devote away from our other obligations. But certainly one for
                                          > > a long event and tea, in person. Yes?
                                          > >
                                          > > Cheers!
                                          > >
                                          > > Juliana
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > For me personally, any method that causes the horse depart from a
                                          > > relaxed, flexible frame, is counterproductive. These means I try to use
                                          > > Classical
                                          > > > methods that are anything but harsh. The key for me is to excursive
                                          > > > self-control when it comes to anger, frustration, and ego when working
                                          > > with
                                          > > > horses and these are all warned against in the works I have recommended.
                                          > > <snip>
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP
                                          > Dianne Karp
                                          >




                                          --
                                          Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP
                                          Dianne Karp

                                        • Troy Griffith
                                          You are of course right that the topic is too involved and has too many widely differing opinions, especially about the use of spur and/or crops, to be
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                            You are of course right that the topic is too involved and has too many widely differing opinions, especially about the use of spur and/or crops, to be discussed effectively here and I apologize for starting down that twisted path with my question. ;>

                                            Let me just say by way of clarification that when I previously said I try to keep the horse in a relaxed and flexible frame, I am referring to a horse which is neither restricted tightly by the aids NOR tense, scared or angry. A horse in any of these situations cannot move freely, something I feel is absolutely required to reach full potential. This is not to say I do not make physical demands of the horse, just that I want the horse to willingly take part in the training and conditioning required for martial riding. I work them yes, but with a gentle hand and I always strive to put them away still vital and strong, not exhausted physically or emotionally. I hope this clears up any confusion of my previous post, but somehow I doubt it will. ;>

                                            As for a long discussion on the subject in person, I look forward to it greatly. Perhaps you can “hop” up for Hocktide and I can let you ride one or more of the horses I have in training and we can talk about the methods I use in some depth.

                                            Thank you for taking the time to respond and I will now return to reading the interesting posts of others and not open in more cans of worms… for a bit.

                                            William

                                             

                                            From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of juliana_of_avon
                                            Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 11:01 AM
                                            To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...

                                             

                                             

                                            The majority of "the Masters" you have listed still warned against harsh methods but they still used whip and spur and other devices. True that they loved and respected the horse, but they still needed to get the job done. Anything ouside of a stroll in the field is going to demand "some" level of harshness. Debating that is going to be a saga and do we really want to do that ... here?

                                            Regarding the snippet below.
                                            Maybe I am taking you too literal and I did not get to see your lecture so I am not sure how extensively you avoid tension in the horse. But without some amount of departure from a relaxed frame I have no idea how you expect to develop an equine athlete. Certainly one fit enough for an endeavor like Haute Ecole. Though I am sure the mind of man can imagine that it is possible. Though in practice the theory would begin to fall apart. Therefore I am fascinated. (I almost imagine the opulent Russian man <Tim Murphy> working out in the Direct TV Ads. "No pain.... no pain")

                                            Either way - this discussion is obviously not one for THIS BOARD since it can become a multi-headed Hydra and demand more time to read than any of us would wish to devote away from our other obligations. But certainly one for a long event and tea, in person. Yes?

                                            Cheers!

                                            Juliana

                                            --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:

                                            > For me personally, any method that causes the horse depart from a relaxed, flexible frame, is counterproductive. These means I try to use Classical
                                            > methods that are anything but harsh. The key for me is to excursive
                                            > self-control when it comes to anger, frustration, and ego when working with
                                            > horses and these are all warned against in the works I have recommended. <snip>

                                          • Dianne Karp
                                            Spring and worms go together. Not that it looks like spring at my house. The wind is howling and it is snowing sideways at the moment. The only saving grace
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                              Spring and worms go together.

                                              Not that it looks like spring at my house.

                                              The wind is howling and it is snowing sideways at the moment.  The only saving grace is that the ground is _probably_ too warm for it to stick (not counting the snow piles that are still in the shady spots from the last big storm)

                                              Siobhan




                                              Thank you for taking the time to respond and I will now return to reading the interesting posts of others and not open in more cans of worms… for a bit.

                                              William



                                            • juliana_of_avon
                                              William, Nice save! It is doubtful we will be making the trip for Hocktide. The good news that you can avoid my taunting husband! :-) ~J
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                                William,

                                                Nice save!
                                                It is doubtful we will be making the trip for Hocktide. The good news that you can avoid my taunting husband! :-)

                                                ~J

                                                --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:


                                                > Let me just say by way of clarification that when I previously said I try to
                                                > keep the horse in a relaxed and flexible frame, I am referring to a horse
                                                > which is neither restricted tightly by the aids NOR tense, scared or angry.
                                                > A horse in any of these situations cannot move freely,...<snip>
                                              • deliriumskid
                                                My only feedback is this.... When it comes to your safety do whatever you need to do... If your too interested in poor little Pookys feelings, or if you hurt
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                                  My only feedback is this....

                                                  When it comes to your safety do whatever you need to do...

                                                  If your too interested in poor little Pookys feelings, or if you hurt little Pooky, and your getting stepped on, kicked, or bucked off...

                                                  Do what you got to do..

                                                  LZO!

                                                  --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Which makes me ask, do you feel any of the masters, who's works I recommend,
                                                  > espouse harsh techniques in these works? I know it is commonly believed that
                                                  > training methods of the past were abusive, and this is certainly true of the
                                                  > methods used by many, especially in the middle ages. The particular Master's
                                                  > I reference were all famous for their love and respect of horses and for
                                                  > speaking out against harsh training methods, calling them counterproductive
                                                  > and cruel. From the Renaissance on, the methods of MANY Classical Masters
                                                  > were far more gentle than a vast number of trainers today, though some very
                                                  > famous ones still held on to earlier, more aggressive methods, and the works
                                                  > of these, I do not recommend. I realize the term harsh is relative and we
                                                  > all have our own opinion where the line should be drawn, so I am curious if
                                                  > you feel any of the methods put forward in these works to be too harsh?
                                                  >
                                                  > For me personally, any method that causes the horse depart from a relaxed,
                                                  > flexible frame, is counterproductive. These means I try to use Classical
                                                  > methods that are anything but harsh. The key for me is to excursive
                                                  > self-control when it comes to anger, frustration, and ego when working with
                                                  > horses and these are all warned against in the works I have recommended. If
                                                  > I am not remembering reading about harsher methods being instructed in any
                                                  > of these books, it may be because I dismissed them the moment I read them.
                                                  > ;> So it is possible there are such methods spoken of.
                                                  >
                                                  > When reading these works, as with ANY books on horse training, I believe one
                                                  > should look closely at how the methods being espoused have, or fail to have,
                                                  > the "ring of truth", based on my own understanding of horse training. Just
                                                  > because the person writing the book is well known or even famous, does not
                                                  > make what they say absolute gospel. In other words, read with a critical
                                                  > eye and healthy skepticism and take nothing as truth that is not true to
                                                  > you.
                                                  >
                                                  > William (An Tir)
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com]
                                                  > On Behalf Of Rachael Keish
                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:47 PM
                                                  > To: Troy Griffith
                                                  > Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Heheh, yeah we may use period (or somewhat later that/out of period)
                                                  > references but OMG we certainly don't espouse many of their harsher their
                                                  > techniques!
                                                  > :-), Marguerite
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@...>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I hope the reading list of recommended riding Masters I assembled did not
                                                  > break with the concept of "Be careful who you recommend." ;>
                                                  >
                                                  > William
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com]
                                                  > On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:39 PM
                                                  > To: la3luna@...
                                                  > Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount of
                                                  > free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone
                                                  > else feeling so inspired to create a handout...would run it by this group
                                                  > first for help with edits and suggestions. With all this wisdom, experience
                                                  > and "horse sence" the project could not fail (add herioc theme music here).
                                                  > Good stuff!
                                                  > This is shaping up to be a great EQ year for the SCA...lots going on!
                                                  >
                                                  > On a side note...do we have a site for Fall Equestrium? The ONLY reason I
                                                  > ask is that the mundane horse club Alloria and I are part of is having a get
                                                  > together next week at a ranch/facility in Galt (I believe). Web site looks
                                                  > nice. never been there. www.mokelumneriverranch.com
                                                  > <http://www.mokelumneriverranch.com/> for those who care.
                                                  >
                                                  > Cheers!
                                                  >
                                                  > RdC
                                                  >
                                                  > On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@> wrote:
                                                  > <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked
                                                  > questions of this nature.<snip>
                                                  >
                                                  > Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are
                                                  > going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do
                                                  > suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for
                                                  > instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and
                                                  > buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact
                                                  > they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.." statistic
                                                  > is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.
                                                  >
                                                  > Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names
                                                  > or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already understands
                                                  > this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a
                                                  > message to the Group at large. I think we should really support experienced
                                                  > hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.
                                                  >
                                                  > ~J
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > _____
                                                  >
                                                  > No virus found in this message.
                                                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                  > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3569 - Release Date: 04/12/11
                                                  >
                                                • Dianne Karp
                                                  There is nothing I can do with my hand that can begin to compare with what the MEAN MEAN boss mare, Tiphani , does to keep order out in that pasture. Scary!!!
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                                    There is nothing I can do with my hand that can begin to compare with what the MEAN MEAN boss mare, Tiphani , does to keep order out in that pasture. Scary!!!  Such a sweet looking girl until "We need order!" then -snap, kick, POW! 

                                                    Chuckle


                                                    Siobhan

                                                    On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 6:03 PM, deliriumskid <deliriumskid@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    My only feedback is this....

                                                    When it comes to your safety do whatever you need to do...

                                                    If your too interested in poor little Pookys feelings, or if you hurt little Pooky, and your getting stepped on, kicked, or bucked off...

                                                    Do what you got to do..

                                                    LZO!

                                                    -


                                                  • Troy Griffith
                                                    Did someone confuse me with one of the Natural Horsemanship zealots? ; Do you think ANY of these classical masters recommended letting a horse be
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
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                                                      Did someone confuse me with one of the Natural Horsemanship zealots? ;>

                                                      Do you think ANY of these classical masters recommended letting a horse be intentionally aggressive and get away with it?

                                                      So stepped on or kicked, no I don’t think so. Bucked off, well that can happen for reasons not related to aggression, and there is no way I know of, that you can use positive punishment to stop a horse from bucking…
                                                      Oh, there we go again with that can of worms. ;>

                                                       

                                                      William

                                                       

                                                      From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of deliriumskid
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 6:03 PM
                                                      To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      My only feedback is this....

                                                      When it comes to your safety do whatever you need to do...

                                                      If your too interested in poor little Pookys feelings, or if you hurt little Pooky, and your getting stepped on, kicked, or bucked off...

                                                      Do what you got to do..

                                                      LZO!

                                                      --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Which makes me ask, do you feel any of the masters, who's works I recommend,
                                                      > espouse harsh techniques in these works? I know it is commonly believed that
                                                      > training methods of the past were abusive, and this is certainly true of the
                                                      > methods used by many, especially in the middle ages. The particular Master's
                                                      > I reference were all famous for their love and respect of horses and for
                                                      > speaking out against harsh training methods, calling them counterproductive
                                                      > and cruel. From the Renaissance on, the methods of MANY Classical Masters
                                                      > were far more gentle than a vast number of trainers today, though some very
                                                      > famous ones still held on to earlier, more aggressive methods, and the works
                                                      > of these, I do not recommend. I realize the term harsh is relative and we
                                                      > all have our own opinion where the line should be drawn, so I am curious if
                                                      > you feel any of the methods put forward in these works to be too harsh?
                                                      >
                                                      > For me personally, any method that causes the horse depart from a relaxed,
                                                      > flexible frame, is counterproductive. These means I try to use Classical
                                                      > methods that are anything but harsh. The key for me is to excursive
                                                      > self-control when it comes to anger, frustration, and ego when working with
                                                      > horses and these are all warned against in the works I have recommended. If
                                                      > I am not remembering reading about harsher methods being instructed in any
                                                      > of these books, it may be because I dismissed them the moment I read them.
                                                      > ;> So it is possible there are such methods spoken of.
                                                      >
                                                      > When reading these works, as with ANY books on horse training, I believe one
                                                      > should look closely at how the methods being espoused have, or fail to have,
                                                      > the "ring of truth", based on my own understanding of horse training. Just
                                                      > because the person writing the book is well known or even famous, does not
                                                      > make what they say absolute gospel. In other words, read with a critical
                                                      > eye and healthy skepticism and take nothing as truth that is not true to
                                                      > you.
                                                      >
                                                      > William (An Tir)
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com]
                                                      > On Behalf Of Rachael Keish
                                                      > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:47 PM
                                                      > To: Troy Griffith
                                                      > Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Heheh, yeah we may use period (or somewhat later that/out of period)
                                                      > references but OMG we certainly don't espouse many of their harsher their
                                                      > techniques!
                                                      > :-), Marguerite
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@...>
                                                      > wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > I hope the reading list of recommended riding Masters I assembled did not
                                                      > break with the concept of "Be careful who you recommend." ;>
                                                      >
                                                      > William
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com]
                                                      > On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                                                      > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:39 PM
                                                      > To: la3luna@...
                                                      > Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount of
                                                      > free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone
                                                      > else feeling so inspired to create a handout...would run it by this group
                                                      > first for help with edits and suggestions. With all this wisdom, experience
                                                      > and "horse sence" the project could not fail (add herioc theme music here).
                                                      > Good stuff!
                                                      > This is shaping up to be a great EQ year for the SCA...lots going on!
                                                      >
                                                      > On a side note...do we have a site for Fall Equestrium? The ONLY reason I
                                                      > ask is that the mundane horse club Alloria and I are part of is having a get
                                                      > together next week at a ranch/facility in Galt (I believe). Web site looks
                                                      > nice. never been there. www.mokelumneriverranch.com
                                                      > <http://www.mokelumneriverranch.com/> for those who care.
                                                      >
                                                      > Cheers!
                                                      >
                                                      > RdC
                                                      >
                                                      > On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@> wrote:
                                                      > <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked
                                                      > questions of this nature.<snip>
                                                      >
                                                      > Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are
                                                      > going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do
                                                      > suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for
                                                      > instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and
                                                      > buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact
                                                      > they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.." statistic
                                                      > is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.
                                                      >
                                                      > Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names
                                                      > or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already understands
                                                      > this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a
                                                      > message to the Group at large. I think we should really support experienced
                                                      > hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.
                                                      >
                                                      > ~J
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > _____
                                                      >
                                                      > No virus found in this message.
                                                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                      > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3569 - Release Date: 04/12/11
                                                      >

                                                    • Troy Griffith
                                                      Worded perhaps better. Aggressive force to maintain safety is appropriate but only to the minimum needed to do so. (Don t you even think of walking over me to
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
                                                      • 0 Attachment

                                                        Worded perhaps better…

                                                        Aggressive force to maintain safety is appropriate but only to the minimum needed to do so. (Don’t you even think of walking over me to get where you want to be, *smack*)
                                                        Aggressive force as a teaching tool, I never do. (Damn you horse, you should know this by now, so do it! *smack*)

                                                        William

                                                         

                                                        From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of deliriumskid
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 6:03 PM
                                                        To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        My only feedback is this....

                                                        When it comes to your safety do whatever you need to do...

                                                        If your too interested in poor little Pookys feelings, or if you hurt little Pooky, and your getting stepped on, kicked, or bucked off...

                                                        Do what you got to do..

                                                        LZO!

                                                        --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Which makes me ask, do you feel any of the masters, who's works I recommend,
                                                        > espouse harsh techniques in these works? I know it is commonly believed that
                                                        > training methods of the past were abusive, and this is certainly true of the
                                                        > methods used by many, especially in the middle ages. The particular Master's
                                                        > I reference were all famous for their love and respect of horses and for
                                                        > speaking out against harsh training methods, calling them counterproductive
                                                        > and cruel. From the Renaissance on, the methods of MANY Classical Masters
                                                        > were far more gentle than a vast number of trainers today, though some very
                                                        > famous ones still held on to earlier, more aggressive methods, and the works
                                                        > of these, I do not recommend. I realize the term harsh is relative and we
                                                        > all have our own opinion where the line should be drawn, so I am curious if
                                                        > you feel any of the methods put forward in these works to be too harsh?
                                                        >
                                                        > For me personally, any method that causes the horse depart from a relaxed,
                                                        > flexible frame, is counterproductive. These means I try to use Classical
                                                        > methods that are anything but harsh. The key for me is to excursive
                                                        > self-control when it comes to anger, frustration, and ego when working with
                                                        > horses and these are all warned against in the works I have recommended. If
                                                        > I am not remembering reading about harsher methods being instructed in any
                                                        > of these books, it may be because I dismissed them the moment I read them.
                                                        > ;> So it is possible there are such methods spoken of.
                                                        >
                                                        > When reading these works, as with ANY books on horse training, I believe one
                                                        > should look closely at how the methods being espoused have, or fail to have,
                                                        > the "ring of truth", based on my own understanding of horse training. Just
                                                        > because the person writing the book is well known or even famous, does not
                                                        > make what they say absolute gospel. In other words, read with a critical
                                                        > eye and healthy skepticism and take nothing as truth that is not true to
                                                        > you.
                                                        >
                                                        > William (An Tir)
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com]
                                                        > On Behalf Of Rachael Keish
                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:47 PM
                                                        > To: Troy Griffith
                                                        > Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Heheh, yeah we may use period (or somewhat later that/out of period)
                                                        > references but OMG we certainly don't espouse many of their harsher their
                                                        > techniques!
                                                        > :-), Marguerite
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@...>
                                                        > wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > I hope the reading list of recommended riding Masters I assembled did not
                                                        > break with the concept of "Be careful who you recommend." ;>
                                                        >
                                                        > William
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com]
                                                        > On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:39 PM
                                                        > To: la3luna@...
                                                        > Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount of
                                                        > free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone
                                                        > else feeling so inspired to create a handout...would run it by this group
                                                        > first for help with edits and suggestions. With all this wisdom, experience
                                                        > and "horse sence" the project could not fail (add herioc theme music here).
                                                        > Good stuff!
                                                        > This is shaping up to be a great EQ year for the SCA...lots going on!
                                                        >
                                                        > On a side note...do we have a site for Fall Equestrium? The ONLY reason I
                                                        > ask is that the mundane horse club Alloria and I are part of is having a get
                                                        > together next week at a ranch/facility in Galt (I believe). Web site looks
                                                        > nice. never been there. www.mokelumneriverranch.com
                                                        > <http://www.mokelumneriverranch.com/> for those who care.
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers!
                                                        >
                                                        > RdC
                                                        >
                                                        > On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@> wrote:
                                                        > <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked
                                                        > questions of this nature.<snip>
                                                        >
                                                        > Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are
                                                        > going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do
                                                        > suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for
                                                        > instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and
                                                        > buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact
                                                        > they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.." statistic
                                                        > is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.
                                                        >
                                                        > Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names
                                                        > or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already understands
                                                        > this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a
                                                        > message to the Group at large. I think we should really support experienced
                                                        > hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.
                                                        >
                                                        > ~J
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > _____
                                                        >
                                                        > No virus found in this message.
                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                        > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3569 - Release Date: 04/12/11
                                                        >

                                                      • Laura
                                                        All I can say is, I never know enough. And every time I think I know enough to make a statement, the horse will let me know that I don t know enough. So... it
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Apr 13, 2011
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          All I can say is, I never know enough. And every time I think I know enough to make a statement, the horse will let me know that I don't know enough. So... it is hard for me to ever say what is appropriate. Goddamn conundrum, people tell me I know stuff, but the horses giggle the second I think I do...

                                                          Laurentia

                                                          --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "Troy Griffith" <Troy@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Worded perhaps better.
                                                          >
                                                          > Aggressive force to maintain safety is appropriate but only to the minimum
                                                          > needed to do so. (Don't you even think of walking over me to get where you
                                                          > want to be, *smack*)
                                                          > Aggressive force as a teaching tool, I never do. (Damn you horse, you should
                                                          > know this by now, so do it! *smack*)
                                                          >
                                                          > William
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com]
                                                          > On Behalf Of deliriumskid
                                                          > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 6:03 PM
                                                          > To: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Subject: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > My only feedback is this....
                                                          >
                                                          > When it comes to your safety do whatever you need to do...
                                                          >
                                                          > If your too interested in poor little Pookys feelings, or if you hurt little
                                                          > Pooky, and your getting stepped on, kicked, or bucked off...
                                                          >
                                                          > Do what you got to do..
                                                          >
                                                          > LZO!
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > <mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com> , "Troy Griffith" <Troy@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Which makes me ask, do you feel any of the masters, who's works I
                                                          > recommend,
                                                          > > espouse harsh techniques in these works? I know it is commonly believed
                                                          > that
                                                          > > training methods of the past were abusive, and this is certainly true of
                                                          > the
                                                          > > methods used by many, especially in the middle ages. The particular
                                                          > Master's
                                                          > > I reference were all famous for their love and respect of horses and for
                                                          > > speaking out against harsh training methods, calling them
                                                          > counterproductive
                                                          > > and cruel. From the Renaissance on, the methods of MANY Classical Masters
                                                          > > were far more gentle than a vast number of trainers today, though some
                                                          > very
                                                          > > famous ones still held on to earlier, more aggressive methods, and the
                                                          > works
                                                          > > of these, I do not recommend. I realize the term harsh is relative and we
                                                          > > all have our own opinion where the line should be drawn, so I am curious
                                                          > if
                                                          > > you feel any of the methods put forward in these works to be too harsh?
                                                          > >
                                                          > > For me personally, any method that causes the horse depart from a relaxed,
                                                          > > flexible frame, is counterproductive. These means I try to use Classical
                                                          > > methods that are anything but harsh. The key for me is to excursive
                                                          > > self-control when it comes to anger, frustration, and ego when working
                                                          > with
                                                          > > horses and these are all warned against in the works I have recommended.
                                                          > If
                                                          > > I am not remembering reading about harsher methods being instructed in any
                                                          > > of these books, it may be because I dismissed them the moment I read them.
                                                          > > ;> So it is possible there are such methods spoken of.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > When reading these works, as with ANY books on horse training, I believe
                                                          > one
                                                          > > should look closely at how the methods being espoused have, or fail to
                                                          > have,
                                                          > > the "ring of truth", based on my own understanding of horse training. Just
                                                          > > because the person writing the book is well known or even famous, does not
                                                          > > make what they say absolute gospel. In other words, read with a critical
                                                          > > eye and healthy skepticism and take nothing as truth that is not true to
                                                          > > you.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > William (An Tir)
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > <mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          > [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > <mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                          > > On Behalf Of Rachael Keish
                                                          > > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:47 PM
                                                          > > To: Troy Griffith
                                                          > > Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >
                                                          > > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Heheh, yeah we may use period (or somewhat later that/out of period)
                                                          > > references but OMG we certainly don't espouse many of their harsher their
                                                          > > techniques!
                                                          > > :-), Marguerite
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Troy Griffith <Troy@>
                                                          > > wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > I hope the reading list of recommended riding Masters I assembled did not
                                                          > > break with the concept of "Be careful who you recommend." ;>
                                                          > >
                                                          > > William
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > From: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > <mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          > [mailto:WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > <mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                          > > On Behalf Of Michael Canfield
                                                          > > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:39 PM
                                                          > > To: la3luna@
                                                          > > Cc: WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >
                                                          > > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: Getting More Horse Time...
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Yes...very true. If I did construct any such handout in my copious amount
                                                          > of
                                                          > > free time (add tongue-n-cheek sarcasm here) I would...as I assume anyone
                                                          > > else feeling so inspired to create a handout...would run it by this group
                                                          > > first for help with edits and suggestions. With all this wisdom,
                                                          > experience
                                                          > > and "horse sence" the project could not fail (add herioc theme music
                                                          > here).
                                                          > > Good stuff!
                                                          > > This is shaping up to be a great EQ year for the SCA...lots going on!
                                                          > >
                                                          > > On a side note...do we have a site for Fall Equestrium? The ONLY reason I
                                                          > > ask is that the mundane horse club Alloria and I are part of is having a
                                                          > get
                                                          > > together next week at a ranch/facility in Galt (I believe). Web site looks
                                                          > > nice. never been there. www.mokelumneriverranch.com
                                                          > > <http://www.mokelumneriverranch.com/> for those who care.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Cheers!
                                                          > >
                                                          > > RdC
                                                          > >
                                                          > > On Apr 12, 2011, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > "Michael Canfield" <dcamville@> wrote:
                                                          > > <snip> Hopefully to put together a little handout when we get asked
                                                          > > questions of this nature.<snip>
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Just as an aside: And again not aimed at anyone in particular. If we are
                                                          > > going to assume role of Fount of Information in this manner then I do
                                                          > > suggest we refrain from suggesting NH Personalities as sources for
                                                          > > instruction or information. It is entirely too easy to Google "a name" and
                                                          > > buy a DVD and have Beginners thinking they know "something" when in fact
                                                          > > they do not. If you think that "80% of first-time horse owners.."
                                                          > statistic
                                                          > > is sad. You should see the statistics on TV/DVD N.H. Flunkees.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Putting together a handout can become a slippery slope. I suggest no names
                                                          > > or mention of N.H. resources. I assume Richard probably already
                                                          > understands
                                                          > > this (he has been reemed a-plenty over this type of thing) - but this is a
                                                          > > message to the Group at large. I think we should really support
                                                          > experienced
                                                          > > hands-on Instruction. Or a rental string.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > ~J
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > _____
                                                          > >
                                                          > > No virus found in this message.
                                                          > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          > > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3569 - Release Date: 04/12/11
                                                          > >
                                                          >
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