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OT? Open mouth, insert foot

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  • Trader Kevin
    WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING THE FOLLOWING POST IS POTENTIALLY OFF-TOPIC. I HAVE NO DESIRE FOR THIS LIST TO BECOME A FORUM FOR DEBATING THE
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 4, 2004
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      WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING

      THE FOLLOWING POST IS POTENTIALLY OFF-TOPIC.

      I HAVE NO DESIRE FOR THIS LIST TO BECOME A FORUM FOR
      DEBATING THE 2004 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, BUT THIS POST
      HAS ACTUAL BIG TEN CONTENT. IT IS ABOUT JOHN KERRY
      INSULTING FOOTBALL FANS IN MICHIGAN. IF THIS IS GOING
      TO OFFEND YOU, PLEASE HIT THE DELETE BUTTON NOW.

      FOR THE REST OF YOU, ENJOY.

      Excerpt from column by The Prowler on Spectator.org:

      If John Kerry loses Michigan, he will probably blame
      it on his joke writers, then Woody Hayes, and the
      mighty Ohio State Buckeyes...

      To get his Ohio rallies up and rolling, Kerry used a
      set of jokes to open his events. In Bowling Green, his
      shtick went something like this:

      "If you elect me and my running mate, John Edwards, we
      are going to give you the courageous leadership you
      need. We'll take the tough positions, the courageous
      positions, the tough stands. But there's one tough
      position I will not take: I am not going to choose
      between the Falcons and the Rockets"--this is a local
      reference to the well-known rivalry between Bowling
      Green University and the University of Toledo.

      "I will say this," he added. "There is nothing better
      than Buckeye football, period!"

      Kerry used this set piece several times in Ohio, to
      great effect...But then he dug a huge hole for
      himself. On Sunday and into Monday, Kerry hit
      Michigan, where he attempted to use the same Ohio
      jokes.

      "I just came here from Bowling Green," Kerry told the
      crowd to subdued applause. "I was smart enough not to
      pick a choice between the Falcons and the, well, you
      know, all those other teams out there. I just go for
      Buckeye football, that's where I'm coming from."

      At that point, before all the boos began raining down
      upon him, Kerry seemed to realize his error. In an
      attempt to silent the angry crowd of University of
      Michigan supporters, Kerry said, "But that was while I
      was in Ohio. I know I'm in the state of Michigan and
      you got a great big M and a powerhouse of a team."

      --END--

      http://www.spectator.org/util/print.asp?art_id=6920

      My question: Given PSU's three losing seasons in the
      last four, will John Kerry help or hurt his chances in
      Pennsylvania if he calls for JoePa to be fired?

      Penn State Proud, Trader Kevin





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    • Jim Genuardi
      ... Given the state of college football in PA, and all the complexities surrounding JoePa s status, I think he would be wise to avoid the topic completely. Jim
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 4, 2004
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        Trader Kevin wrote:

        >My question: Given PSU's three losing seasons in the
        >last four, will John Kerry help or hurt his chances in
        >Pennsylvania if he calls for JoePa to be fired?
        >

        Given the state of college football in PA, and all the complexities
        surrounding JoePa's status, I think he would be wise to avoid the topic
        completely.

        Jim G. '80
      • Bob
        ... I don t care what side anyone votes, but this is one of the key differences in the parties: strategy. If ever a team was playing with a winning hand, it s
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 4, 2004
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          Trader Kevin posted:

          >At that point, before all the boos began raining down
          >upon him, Kerry seemed to realize his error. In an
          >attempt to silent the angry crowd of University of
          >Michigan supporters, Kerry said, "But that was while I
          >was in Ohio. I know I'm in the state of Michigan and
          >you got a great big M and a powerhouse of a team."
          >
          >
          >
          I don't care what side anyone votes, but this is one of the key
          differences in the parties: strategy. If ever a team was playing with a
          winning hand, it's Kerry. Yet, as usual, the Demo machine just makes
          boo-boos like this right and left. How could they not understand the
          devestating potential of this kind of statement?

          Then you look to the Repos and what did they do when the fallout was
          heaviest. They took people like rumsfeld and Rice and Wolfowitz and
          company and hid them behind the biggest rocks they could find...kept
          them out of the press. And at a time when JK shopuld have gained
          ground, GB was the one who made the turn. I don't think that was just
          a coincidence.

          This is just an unbelievable pievce of stupidity on Kerry's
          speech-writing team's part - and of course, it reflects on the
          candidate's judgment. Badly. How much better to talk of the big Ten in
          general, and note how he loves football, ALL great football. The great
          Buckeye teams. The proud Michigan tradtion. The Woverine and Spartan
          matchup, the wonderful example Joe has set at Penn state, the job Iowa
          has done, the feistiness of NW...and so forth. So many ways he could
          have integrated CFB into his package with wonderful results, and instead
          he says *this*??

          Like I said at the outset, who you vote for is your business, but this
          is a gaffe that could cost him a state he badly needs. And anyone here
          who thinks that something like this doesn't sway voters, ain't looking
          at how elections are won and lost (in a country where barely half the
          available voters actually cast a ballot and then only half of them make
          the decision, meaning roughly 25% of the people elect the
          President...well, there's swing voters out there and this kind of jibe
          could sure as hell swing michigan).

          Old D
        • Nittany1225
          Two things come to mind on this, and I ll try to keep this non-partisan: 1-As OD says...this is a gaffe of comical proportion when one is trying to become
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 4, 2004
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            Two things come to mind on this, and I'll try to keep this non-partisan:

            1-As OD says...this is a gaffe of comical proportion when one is trying to become President of the United States. It isn't about the football analogy, or about the subject matter--it is attention to detail. When I was running campaigns, I hated to go on the stump with my candidate because any candidate that is tired, cranky, exhausted, etc can say JUST ABOUT ANYTHING. The issue this points out is that Kerry, who I think is normally very well schooled on this type of thing, can make mistakes just like anyone else. And, when one of your primary campaign themes is a "battletested leader"...at least subconsciously some voters are going to think..."huh?"

            2-The other issue that immediately sticks out to me is...why in the world, would a campaign that KNOWS they are going to be attacked on the "flip-flop" issue allow the candidate to so blatantly pander in two different states. I'm not suggesting the Bush campaign is going to use this in an ad...but you can bet your bottom dollar the Michigan GOP is printing signs and shirts and hats to pass out at MSU and UM games this fall that say something to the effect of "John Kerry--Buckeye Football Fan". All he should have said was..."we are going to wage a campaign in the great tradition of mid-west football", or something like that. No reason to be specific.

            Steve

            Bob <old.dude@...> wrote:

            I don't care what side anyone votes, but this is one of the key
            differences in the parties: strategy. If ever a team was playing with a
            winning hand, it's Kerry. Yet, as usual, the Demo machine just makes
            boo-boos like this right and left. How could they not understand the
            devestating potential of this kind of statement?

            Then you look to the Repos and what did they do when the fallout was
            heaviest. They took people like rumsfeld and Rice and Wolfowitz and
            company and hid them behind the biggest rocks they could find...kept
            them out of the press. And at a time when JK shopuld have gained
            ground, GB was the one who made the turn. I don't think that was just
            a coincidence.

            This is just an unbelievable pievce of stupidity on Kerry's
            speech-writing team's part - and of course, it reflects on the
            candidate's judgment. Badly. How much better to talk of the big Ten in
            general, and note how he loves football, ALL great football. The great
            Buckeye teams. The proud Michigan tradtion. The Woverine and Spartan
            matchup, the wonderful example Joe has set at Penn state, the job Iowa
            has done, the feistiness of NW...and so forth. So many ways he could
            have integrated CFB into his package with wonderful results, and instead
            he says *this*??

            Like I said at the outset, who you vote for is your business, but this
            is a gaffe that could cost him a state he badly needs. And anyone here
            who thinks that something like this doesn't sway voters, ain't looking
            at how elections are won and lost (in a country where barely half the
            available voters actually cast a ballot and then only half of them make
            the decision, meaning roughly 25% of the people elect the
            President...well, there's swing voters out there and this kind of jibe
            could sure as hell swing michigan).

            Old D






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          • dave@davekroll.com
            Have Pennsylvnia voters, who liked Penn State, ever forgiven Tricky for his awarding of the MNC to s SWC team? DaveK Southeast
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 4, 2004
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              Have Pennsylvnia voters, who liked Penn State, ever forgiven Tricky for his
              awarding of the MNC to s SWC team?

              DaveK Southeast

              Quoting Bob <old.dude@...>:

              > Trader Kevin posted:
              >
              > >At that point, before all the boos began raining down
              > >upon him, Kerry seemed to realize his error. In an
              > >attempt to silent the angry crowd of University of
              > >Michigan supporters, Kerry said, "But that was while I
              > >was in Ohio. I know I'm in the state of Michigan and
              > >you got a great big M and a powerhouse of a team."
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > I don't care what side anyone votes, but this is one of the key
              > differences in the parties: strategy. If ever a team was playing with a
              > winning hand, it's Kerry. Yet, as usual, the Demo machine just makes
              > boo-boos like this right and left. How could they not understand the
              > devestating potential of this kind of statement?
              >
              > Then you look to the Repos and what did they do when the fallout was
              > heaviest. They took people like rumsfeld and Rice and Wolfowitz and
              > company and hid them behind the biggest rocks they could find...kept
              > them out of the press. And at a time when JK shopuld have gained
              > ground, GB was the one who made the turn. I don't think that was just
              > a coincidence.
              >
              > This is just an unbelievable pievce of stupidity on Kerry's
              > speech-writing team's part - and of course, it reflects on the
              > candidate's judgment. Badly. How much better to talk of the big Ten in
              > general, and note how he loves football, ALL great football. The great
              > Buckeye teams. The proud Michigan tradtion. The Woverine and Spartan
              > matchup, the wonderful example Joe has set at Penn state, the job Iowa
              > has done, the feistiness of NW...and so forth. So many ways he could
              > have integrated CFB into his package with wonderful results, and instead
              > he says *this*??
              >
              > Like I said at the outset, who you vote for is your business, but this
              > is a gaffe that could cost him a state he badly needs. And anyone here
              > who thinks that something like this doesn't sway voters, ain't looking
              > at how elections are won and lost (in a country where barely half the
              > available voters actually cast a ballot and then only half of them make
              > the decision, meaning roughly 25% of the people elect the
              > President...well, there's swing voters out there and this kind of jibe
              > could sure as hell swing michigan).
              >
              > Old D
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Tell your Penn State friends about us! If they
              > want to subscribe, have them send a message to:
              > We_Are_Penn_State-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > All "We Are...Penn State" messages are archived at:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/We_Are_Penn_State/messages
              >
              >
              >
              > We Are...Penn State
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
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              >
              >
              >
              >
            • jhauze
              ... Not this alumnus... Jim Hauze 74
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 4, 2004
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                >
                > Have Pennsylvnia voters, who liked Penn State, ever forgiven Tricky for his
                > awarding of the MNC to s SWC team?
                >
                > DaveK Southeast

                Not this alumnus...

                Jim Hauze '74
              • Trader Kevin
                ... forgiven Tricky for his awarding of the MNC to a SWC team?
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 5, 2004
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                  Dave Kroll:

                  >> Have Pennsylvnia voters, who liked Penn State, ever
                  forgiven Tricky for his awarding of the MNC to a SWC
                  team? <<

                  "How could Nixon know so little about Watergate and so
                  much about football?"--Joe Paterno, at Penn State
                  commencement, 1973

                  Penn State Proud, Trader Kevin





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                • Tom Boyer
                  Fwiw of course unemployment is all Bill Clinton s fault ;) but I do suspect today s jobs report will reverberate in Ohio and Michigan a bit more than JK s
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 6, 2004
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                    Fwiw of course unemployment is all Bill Clinton's fault ;) but I do
                    suspect today's jobs report will reverberate in Ohio and Michigan a
                    bit more than JK's comments on football. Unemployed people and their
                    families do tend to vote against incumbent presidents.
                  • Bob
                    ... There was a poll on cnn asking whether the job market would be a major factor in deciding who we voted for. Well, by 2:00 the poll was running 78-22 for
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 6, 2004
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                      Tom Boyer wrote:

                      >Fwiw of course unemployment is all Bill Clinton's fault ;) but I do
                      >suspect today's jobs report will reverberate in Ohio and Michigan a
                      >bit more than JK's comments on football. Unemployed people and their
                      >families do tend to vote against incumbent presidents.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      There was a poll on cnn asking whether the job market would be a major
                      factor in deciding who we voted for. Well, by 2:00 the poll was running
                      78-22 for 'jobs, si!'

                      By 4:00, the Repo wagon circled the internet and overwhelmed the ballot
                      box, drawing it back to 54-46. Just one of the reasons you can't put
                      much stock in those polls (on top of the way they are written to obtain
                      an answer they want). [And yes, I've seen it go the other way as well.]

                      Old D
                    • Trader Kevin
                      ... Ohio and Michigan a bit more than JK s comments on football. Unemployed people and their families do tend to vote against incumbent presidents.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 7, 2004
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                        Tom Boyer:

                        >> I suspect Friday's jobs report will reverberate in
                        Ohio and Michigan a bit more than JK's comments on
                        football. Unemployed people and their families do tend
                        to vote against incumbent presidents. <<

                        Has anyone here ever delved into the nittany gritty of
                        the employment report? (As a floor trader, I never
                        looked beyond the headlines.) If so, can you please
                        explain the summary from Friday?
                        http://tinyurl.com/2qps7

                        Here's what has me puzzled:

                        >> Nonfarm employment was little changed (+32,000) in
                        July...the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S.
                        Department of Labor reported today...Total employment
                        rose by 629,000 to 139.7 million in July...The
                        civilian labor force also increased over the month,
                        rising by 577,000 to 147.9 million... <<

                        How can nonfarm employment rise by just 32K while
                        total employment increased by 629K? Does this mean
                        nearly six hundred thousand people got jobs milking
                        cows and picking cherries?

                        Penn State Proud, Trader Kevin





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                      • JimK
                        My recollection is that the total employment category also includes self-employed people and people who work for their family or family business but are
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 7, 2004
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                          My recollection is that the total employment category also includes self-employed people and people who work for their family or family business but are technically unpaid. The non-farm category does not.

                          JimK

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Trader Kevin
                          To: We_Are_Penn_State@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 8:00 AM
                          Subject: Re: [We Are...Penn State] OT? Open mouth, insert foot


                          Tom Boyer:

                          >> I suspect Friday's jobs report will reverberate in
                          Ohio and Michigan a bit more than JK's comments on
                          football. Unemployed people and their families do tend
                          to vote against incumbent presidents. <<

                          Has anyone here ever delved into the nittany gritty of
                          the employment report? (As a floor trader, I never
                          looked beyond the headlines.) If so, can you please
                          explain the summary from Friday?
                          http://tinyurl.com/2qps7

                          Here's what has me puzzled:

                          >> Nonfarm employment was little changed (+32,000) in
                          July...the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S.
                          Department of Labor reported today...Total employment
                          rose by 629,000 to 139.7 million in July...The
                          civilian labor force also increased over the month,
                          rising by 577,000 to 147.9 million... <<

                          How can nonfarm employment rise by just 32K while
                          total employment increased by 629K? Does this mean
                          nearly six hundred thousand people got jobs milking
                          cows and picking cherries?

                          Penn State Proud, Trader Kevin





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                        • Bob
                          ... Anyone trying to make sense out of the job report is in for a world of hurt. I went round and round with two newspaper economists, and the biggest snafu
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 7, 2004
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                            JimK wrote:

                            >My recollection is that the total employment category also includes self-employed people and people who work for their family or family business but are technically unpaid. The non-farm category does not.
                            >
                            >JimK
                            >
                            >
                            Anyone trying to make sense out of the job report is in for a world of
                            hurt. I went round and round with two newspaper economists, and the
                            biggest snafu is understanding what the govt means by having a "J O B."
                            It simply means that on the surveyed date, this many people were working
                            (and do bear in mind thy have 2 different methods of accomplishing this
                            feat). You could be working for jacks, but if you're employed in some
                            fashion (part-time, temp, soldier, milking cows, working 7/11, McD's,
                            etc.), then you count.

                            The reality of the system is that it's been used by every Admisistration
                            and it *can* makes the economy appear far better (jobs wise) than it
                            truly is. However, as it is used by every Admin in the same manner, on
                            appearances the numbers can be compared and conclusions drawn. Meaning
                            that while I find the methodology ludicrous, it hasn't changed, so we
                            fairly assume to make accurate assumptions.

                            Ahhh, but there's a catch. If more people are working as temps and
                            part-timers in one Admin versus REAL full-time employees in other
                            Admins, then the numbers lie and you cannot make those assumptions. To
                            determine whether an economy is truly "working," we're left with are the
                            productivity numbers by sector (and we know those are often, um,
                            sexed-up, now and then). I have little faith in the job stats, and
                            anyone who takes the time to review the govt method of defining jobs and
                            doing the math will find themslves as bogged down as I was.

                            But to answer Kevin's question: based on the stated information, I would
                            not understand from where the 32,000 figure was derived. I joked a bit
                            with people yesterday that perhaps they just forgot a zero. We have a
                            few zeroes in positions of authority these days, so it's understandable
                            they might have needed one of those zeroes someplace else :>). And to
                            Kevin: if ya want to have some real fun, start combing through all those
                            charts and try to shake some sense out of them. Good freaking luck.

                            My rule of thumb has remained this: how are the numbers being
                            interpreted by the economists, the 2 parties (who have to use them one
                            way or the other in the campaign), and the internet analysts who seem to
                            have a sharper eye for catching turds. For example, it was the internet
                            analysts that spied where the big job increases were coming from a few
                            months back, specifically part-time and temp workers, and that job
                            quality, in the main, stunk; only after enough of this surfaced and
                            gained credibility did the major dare to venture into those waters.

                            This is a pattern that emerges in all things today, from 911 to the war
                            on terror to jobs. The internet carries the message (for BD, itt's the
                            bloody blogs) and the major media will wait until they can see clear
                            trends and have verifiable information before they will step up to the
                            plate. It is one reason that media has lost credibility...they're too
                            slow on the draw in most cases, yet when they pounce early, they usually
                            wind up back-tracking fast with hat in hand.

                            Old D
                          • Bob
                            July...the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. ... A little mentioned revision: In addition to the meager job gain for July, the government revised the
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 7, 2004
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                              July...the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S.

                              >Department of Labor reported today...Total employment
                              >rose by 629,000 to 139.7 million in July...The
                              >civilian labor force also increased over the month,
                              >rising by 577,000 to 147.9 million... <<
                              >
                              >How can nonfarm employment rise by just 32K while
                              >total employment increased by 629K? Does this mean
                              >nearly six hundred thousand people got jobs milking
                              >cows and picking cherries?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              A little mentioned revision:

                              "In addition to the meager job gain for July, the government revised the
                              June employment report, showing a gain of just 78,000 jobs, even less
                              than previously reported. May’s payrolls also were revised down to show
                              a gain of 208,000."

                              FYI, the 78,000 is down from 112,000 and the 208,000 is down from approx
                              240,000. Now, will that 32,000 be revised downwards or will it get a
                              "bump?" Point being, these stats are a near useless measure of where we
                              really are headed (after all, a person who happens to be employed the
                              day they run the survey but is let go the day after still counts as
                              "employed;" conversely, a person unemployed on survey day may start work
                              the next, all of which presents a skewed snapshot).

                              Old D
                            • dave@davekroll.com
                              Nice report OD... Hope everyone on the list fared well with the recent storm. The last week here in Huntsville, Alabama has been fantastic temp and humidity
                              Message 14 of 14 , Aug 9, 2004
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                                Nice report OD...

                                Hope everyone on the list fared well with the recent storm. The last week here
                                in Huntsville, Alabama has been fantastic temp and humidity wise.

                                Oh, and I may have solved my Penn State game viewing dilemma... I'll just have
                                "boy" cut a CD of the games and mail it to me. And, I'll be in San Antonio for
                                the Akron game anyway. I finally talked the head hunters who got me this
                                position to give me some paid time off. I'll be golfing back in SA from the
                                31st through the 6th of Sept.

                                TO everyone HAPPY MONDAY!

                                DaveK Southeast


                                Quoting Bob <old.dude@...>:

                                > JimK wrote:
                                >
                                > >My recollection is that the total employment category also includes
                                > self-employed people and people who work for their family or family business
                                > but are technically unpaid. The non-farm category does not.
                                > >
                                > >JimK
                                > >
                                > >
                                > Anyone trying to make sense out of the job report is in for a world of
                                > hurt. I went round and round with two newspaper economists, and the
                                > biggest snafu is understanding what the govt means by having a "J O B."
                                > It simply means that on the surveyed date, this many people were working
                                > (and do bear in mind thy have 2 different methods of accomplishing this
                                > feat). You could be working for jacks, but if you're employed in some
                                > fashion (part-time, temp, soldier, milking cows, working 7/11, McD's,
                                > etc.), then you count.
                                >
                                ....................<
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