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Re: [WarOf1812] Uniform alterations - bastion loops

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  • Kevin Windsor
    What is the PRO?
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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      What is the PRO?

      > Jim comments:
      > archives, including the PRO in London,
    • John Williamson
      Hi All, I don t post often, lurking is my specialty, it is the best way to learn, by listening. I am writing because of one inaccuracy I noticed with the
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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        Hi All,

        I don't post often, lurking is my specialty, it is the best way to learn, by
        listening. I am writing because of one inaccuracy I noticed with the 41st,
        and hope that some sort of explanation can be offered for this obvious
        oversight.

        I saw the 41st in action at Ft. Malden a year or so ago, and after speaking
        to a couple of members, I noticed that their cuffs were done incorrectly,
        the seams being uppermost in line with the top sleeve seam, not the bottom,
        as I had seen on several coats in the museum here in Ottawa, including
        Brocks last coat, and a couple in my own private collection. I want to
        state right now that I am not the most knowledgeable in that regard, but
        like all I strive to become more so. I asked a couple of members at the
        encampment and received the same reply, that the person who made the coats
        had said that it was done because it was easier, something about it being
        too hard to lace the cuffs. I mention this now not to cause a flame war,
        but because with the 41st and its constant desire to be as accurate as
        possible, perhaps Jim should look into who does the coats, in particular the
        cuffs and correct what is otherwise an excellent impression.

        Thanks and I do not mean to offend, just point out an error on an otherwise
        good impresion.

        John
        _________________________________________________________________________
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      • John Williamson
        Hi All, I don t post often, lurking is my specialty, it is the best way to learn, by listening. I am writing because of one inaccuracy I noticed with the
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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          Hi All,

          I don't post often, lurking is my specialty, it is the best way to learn, by
          listening. I am writing because of one inaccuracy I noticed with the 41st,
          and hope that some sort of explanation can be offered for this obvious
          oversight.

          I saw the 41st in action at Ft. Malden a year or so ago, and after speaking
          to a couple of members, I noticed that their cuffs were done incorrectly,
          the seams being uppermost in line with the top sleeve seam, not the bottom,
          as I had seen on several coats in the museum here in Ottawa, including
          Brocks last coat, and a couple in my own private collection. I want to
          state right now that I am not the most knowledgeable in that regard, but
          like all I strive to become more so. I asked a couple of members at the
          encampment and received the same reply, that the person who made the coats
          had said that it was done because it was easier, something about it being
          too hard to lace the cuffs. I mention this now not to cause a flame war,
          but because with the 41st and its constant desire to be as accurate as
          possible, perhaps Jim should look into who does the coats, in particular the
          cuffs and correct what is otherwise an excellent impression.

          Thanks and I do not mean to offend, just point out an error on an otherwise
          good impresion.

          John
          _________________________________________________________________________
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        • yawors1@uwindsor.ca
          Public Record Office, in London, England, where the original army records are stored. Jim Kevin Windsor
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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            Public Record Office, in London, England, where the original army records
            are stored.

            Jim




            Kevin Windsor
            <kevin.windsor@sym To:
            patico.ca> WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            cc:
            02/02/01 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [WarOf1812]
            Please respond to Uniform alterations - bastion
            WarOf1812 loops






            What is the PRO?

            > Jim comments:
            > archives, including the PRO in London,





            The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
            square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
            of square miles...
          • BritcomHMP@aol.com
            In a message dated 2/2/2001 1:00:04 PM Central Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes:
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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              In a message dated 2/2/2001 1:00:04 PM Central Standard Time,
              kevin.windsor@... writes:

              << What is the PRO?

              > Jim comments:
              > archives, including the PRO in London,
              >>

              The Public Records Office
            • yawors1@uwindsor.ca
              [snip] I am writing because of one inaccuracy I noticed with the 41st, and hope that some sort of explanation can be offered for this obvious oversight. I
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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                "[snip] I am writing because of one inaccuracy I noticed with the 41st, and
                hope that some sort of explanation can be offered for this obvious
                oversight."

                "I saw the 41st in action [snip] I noticed that their cuffs were done
                incorrectly, the seams being uppermost in line with the top sleeve seam,
                not the bottom, [snip] "

                "Thanks and I do not mean to offend, just point out an error on an
                otherwise good impresion."

                "John"

                Jim writes:
                No offence taken, it's a very fair question - and very observant of you!
                As I am probably the fabricator of most of the coats John observed, I would
                say first off that the difficulty with the bastion shape on a 41st coat is
                that the points of the sides and base of each loop must come as close as
                possible to touching each other.
                This fact, coupled with the fact that the lace is hand-sewn on while the
                cuff is still off the sleeve, leaves the fabricator with two options:
                1) work the loops on in a position where the cuff seam will line up with
                the 'bottom' arm seam (where it is on Brock's coat), which I will call the
                "normal" position, and which will require some fiddling with the bastion
                loop shape as described below;
                2) work the loops on in the position John observed on some of the 41st
                repro coats he saw - which means one "regular" "symmetrical" loop on one
                side of the cuff piece (cuff seam still not sewn together) and three
                "regular" loops on the other.

                Option #1: The cuff piece has a slight angle to it in its mid point, this
                is the point that should lie on the seam line of one side of the arm; the
                other seam of the arm is where the cuff's own seam lies.
                The slight angle in the mid-point of the cuff forces the two bastion loops
                on either side of it in to a "collision" on their side points (the base
                points of course present no problem). There is just the one loop on one
                side of this mid-point line; the other side has three loops.
                Altering the two loops that abut the mid-point line is complicated because
                of the other two loops - you either put all the alteration in to the
                'abutting' loops and leave the other two as symmetrical and regular, or you
                try and spread the alteration out a bit over all 4. Neither option is
                entirely visually satisfactory: one results in two "symmetrical" loops with
                two distorted ones in obvious proximity; the other alters all 4 but to a
                lesser extent...

                option #2: you sew the symmetrical loops on, then sew the cuff seam
                together. This is easier to do and the individual symmetrical loops look
                better. You have the cuff seam to fiddle with in matching the abutting
                loops - somehow, it just seems to work out.

                However, either option is certainly 'do-able' from a practical point of
                view. I have in fact done both, and while I personally prefer option #2 it
                is of course *not* an "option" if it is historically incorrect.

                Although I do not have them in front of me and therefore can't indicate
                exact pages & illustrations (I'm at my office, they're at home) my memory
                is that a careful study of the Steppler uniform articles showed cuffs with
                the seam in either position i.e lying on the top or bottom seam of the
                arms. On that basis, I've most often used "option #2"...

                Hope this answers John's question...

                Jim
                1/41
              • HQ93rd@aol.com
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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                  << << Am I missing something, or isn't the fact that the guy in question is
                  seven feet tall going to make him stick out in the line pretty
                  obviously no matter what number or size of loops he has on his
                  tunic? Even if his loops are the same size as everyone else's, won't
                  the fact that the bottom loop on his coatee is even with the middle
                  loops of the guys standing on either side of him going to run the
                  effect anyway? >>
                  >>

                  I will have to dig it out, and I don't feel like it right now (nyaaaa) but I
                  recall there being something on the 93rd whilst on station in South Africa
                  being noted by one IG that some of the mens coats were cut too short in the
                  front and could only take 8 or 9 loops and buttons instead of the required
                  ten. That's what comes of being waaaaaaay down under I suppose....

                  B
                  93rd SHRoFLHU
                  THE Thin Red Line
                  www.93rdhighlanders.com
                • fullerfamily@sprintmail.com
                  ... Kevin and List, the PRO is on line. http://catalogue.pro.gov.uk/ListInt/default.asp You can search for records from our time period of interest, as well as
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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                    --- In WarOf1812@y..., Kevin Windsor <kevin.windsor@s...> wrote:
                    > What is the PRO?

                    Kevin and List, the PRO is on line.

                    http://catalogue.pro.gov.uk/ListInt/default.asp

                    You can search for records from our time period of interest, as well
                    as of many others, but beware, the military records weren't
                    rationalised until much later (1850s?), so many things are quite hard
                    to find, and may not be catalogued properly, necessitating a visit
                    there to find it yourself, preferably with a laptop to transcribe
                    what you read, as there is not much chance to photocopy original
                    documents, due to fragility and concerns about fading.

                    Still, it's quite a thrill to open a book nobody else has looked at
                    in almost 200 years!

                    Roger
                    3/95th (Rifles)

                    TODAY IN RIFLE BRIGADE HISTORY:
                    2 February 1814.-4 Cos. 1st, 2nd and 3rd Bns. at assault and capture
                    of MERXEM; 3 Riflemen killed, 4 officers and 6 Riflemen wounded.
                  • mike dollinger
                    ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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                      >From: spikeyj@...
                      >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Uniform alterations - bastion loops
                      >Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:28:44 -0500 (EST)
                      >
                      >Am I missing something, or isn't the fact that the guy in question is
                      >seven feet tall going to make him stick out in the line pretty
                      >obviously no matter what number or size of loops he has on his
                      >tunic? Even if his loops are the same size as everyone else's, won't
                      >the fact that the bottom loop on his coatee is even with the middle
                      >loops of the guys standing on either side of him going to run the
                      >effect anyway?
                      >
                      >Spike Y Jones
                      >He'll need to find a red deer or something to lead around. :) what do you
                      >say Mcdonald?
                      >

                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                    • mike dollinger
                      ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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                        >From: spikeyj@...
                        >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Uniform alterations - bastion loops
                        >Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:28:44 -0500 (EST)
                        >
                        >Am I missing something, or isn't the fact that the guy in question is
                        >seven feet tall going to make him stick out in the line pretty
                        >obviously no matter what number or size of loops he has on his
                        >tunic? Even if his loops are the same size as everyone else's, won't
                        >the fact that the bottom loop on his coatee is even with the middle
                        >loops of the guys standing on either side of him going to run the
                        >effect anyway?
                        >
                        >Spike Y Jones
                        >He'll need to find a red deer or something to lead around. :) what do you
                        >say Mcdonald? LOL Mike
                        >

                        _________________________________________________________________
                        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                      • Sue Draper
                        Mr. Yaworsky: Your email raises several issues, only two of which I choose to address. First, construction, accuracy and interpretation of tailoring: I have it
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 2, 2001
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                          Mr. Yaworsky:

                          Your email raises several issues, only two of which I choose to address.

                          First, construction, accuracy and interpretation of tailoring: I have it on the authority of Peter Twist that the maximum number of loops allowed on a coatee was 10, with a minimum of 8. So, as Tim Pickles pointed out, I stand corrected that there was some slight variation in the uniforms. Peter notes that the minimum of 8 was a provision for smaller men, and 10 for larger. Apparently, variations in numbers of buttons and loops stopped altogether by the Rev war, excepting that which is noted above.

                          According to Steppler, modern military lacing assigns only 3 shapes for lacing: square-ended, pointed and bastion. Early 19th century lacing recognizes at least 5 (possibly more) patterns: Bastion (2 types entitled flowerpot and Jew's Harp, Straight lacing had 2 variations: the common straightpoint and what he terms a rarer Coldstream loop. "There may also have been another variation to the pointed loop...the square ended loops were also referred to as double-headed loops" (Steppler, Military Illustrated, 1989/90 (22):39). Steppler also outlines irregularities/concessions made for bastion-looped regiments.

                          Further, he notes that on the 1802 clothing regulations review, "the infantry were to use 10 loops on each side of the front of the coat...Highland regiments...8 loops". "Alone, the 3rd foot guards had nine loops, set in threes" (ibid).

                          According to Pearse c.1803 as quoted by Steppler (ibid, p.44), Hamilton Smith's Chart of Colours 1812 (p.22) and Koke (NY Hist Quarterly, 1961(55) 1: p.172), the looping on the 41st coats is bastion, Steppler goes further to note it as flowerpot shape.

                          I've done a quick draft of the coatee pattern, adjusted for your large man. I've used bastion loops in a flowerpot shape and which conform to the graduation in size from 3.5" to 4.5" in length, and are approximately 2 inches in width at the medial (lapel) edge. A coatee with a measurement of 30 inches from shoulder to waist takes 10 bastion-flowerpot loops of lace, with less than 1/4" between loops at the medial edge. At 27" from the shoulder, it takes 9, with the medial loops touching (ie no space between loops). Perhaps the problem lies with the template for the bastion loops not being wide enough at the lapel edge. When straight edge looping is what the tailor is familiar with, it's not unusual to try to get the two inside edges of the lacing to touch and flange outward only at the lateral edges, or to attempt to alter the looping via the internal edges.

                          The regulations make allowance for 8 to 10 loops, but no more. Practical experimentation verifies that the maximum of 10 is possible on a coat of this size.

                          The point is not whether it's possible to fit more loops on a coat. The point is whether or not it's correct and accurate. Clearly, it isn't. I refer to my original point: when we have so little to hold up as concrete examples, it doesn't make sense to alter the detailed representation we have. Surely there is enough conjecture and debate over details in our period as it is, without dabbling with primary sources.

                          To your points regarding tailoring:
                          *increase the width of the loop excessively vertically
                          {sue}: No, I speak of marginally increasing the distance between the medial points of the loop, not the interior edges. Someone with experience with bastion looping will, as you point out, know better than to adjust the interior width.

                          *Your suggestion, of fooling around with the shape and spacing of the loops
                          {sue}: No, my suggestion was to minutely alter the spacing of the loops evenly across the face of the tunic. My suggestion did not include alteration of the bastion shape.

                          Second, to your personal comments:
                          *you are speaking from the viewpoint of someone who is familiar with square looping
                          {sue}: No, I am speaking from the viewpoint of someone who's constructed many coats, for different regiments, based on research and practical experience.

                          * because I was somewhat put off by the fact that someone who obviously knows nothing of the special considerations involved in lacing bastion-looped regiments nevertheless could make such dogmatic statements, which seemed to be based on experience she may or may not have had with square-looped regiments.

                          {sue}: As you yourself have pointed out, this egroup is a forum for the exchange of ideas and information, and not for personal digs, slander or maligning. I take exception not only to the tone of your missives, but to the attacks contained therein. I have, contrary to your opinion, rather a lot of experience in the research and construction of British military and non-military clothing, as many on this list will attest. This includes construction using bastion loops. Should you be desirous of a portfolio, you may contact me offline.

                          We are all on a learning curve, and make adjustments to our methods and presentation as we acquire knowledge and experience. Sometimes the transition from the not-known to the now-known is difficult. I appreciate the position from which you are arguing. However, personal attacks launched by near strangers who have little background upon which to base their assertions is unkind and unproductive and does indeed, enocurage a (to use your term) flame-war. None of this is necessary in an educational, discussion-based forum such as this e-group. Please do not credit me with less experience and fewer years than I've earned.

                          *she is choosing to play in my ball-park...
                          {sue}: Forgive me, Mr. Yaworsky. When I paid my admission to this game in 1982, I wasn't aware it was you who owned the playing field.

                          The field is yours, sir. Do as you will.


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                        • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                          Ooooo Sue, You have got me all confused now. I dug out what I was thinking of (the 1802 regulations) as re-printed in full in the JSAHR within an article by
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 3, 2001
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                            Ooooo Sue,

                            You have got me all confused now. I dug out what I was thinking of (the 1802
                            regulations) as re-printed in full in the JSAHR within an article by Bill
                            Carman. Bill is a stickler but some of his illustrations of officers coats
                            are strange, he shows a Lt. Company officers jacket with 10 buttons in pairs
                            but a Lt. Company officers COAT with 12! I confess I cannot find a reference
                            for this in the text, 10 being the most mentioned (I have however found a
                            reference to reducing the number as mentioned by Robert but not a reference
                            for increasing the number). I suppose I will have to drop Bill a line and see
                            if he can enlighten me.

                            I am going to be all frustrated until I nail this one down now!

                            Cheers

                            Tim
                          • Sue Draper
                            Oh, ummmmm. I was talking only about OR coats. Everything I ve read says something akin to this is how it was, blah, blah, blah, and then goes on to say
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 3, 2001
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                              Oh, ummmmm. I was talking only about OR coats. Everything I've read says something akin to this is how it was, blah, blah, blah, and then goes on to say *with the exception of Officer's coats, which* blah, blah, blah.

                              Does this shed any light?

                              -sue
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: BritcomHMP@... <BritcomHMP@...>
                              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: February 3, 2001 12:28 PM
                              Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Uniform alterations - bastion loops


                              Ooooo Sue,

                              You have got me all confused now. I dug out what I was thinking of (the 1802
                              regulations) as re-printed in full in the JSAHR within an article by Bill
                              Carman. Bill is a stickler but some of his illustrations of officers coats
                              are strange, he shows a Lt. Company officers jacket with 10 buttons in pairs
                              but a Lt. Company officers COAT with 12! I confess I cannot find a reference
                              for this in the text, 10 being the most mentioned (I have however found a
                              reference to reducing the number as mentioned by Robert but not a reference
                              for increasing the number). I suppose I will have to drop Bill a line and see
                              if he can enlighten me.

                              I am going to be all frustrated until I nail this one down now!

                              Cheers

                              Tim

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                              The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                              In a message dated 2/3/2001 11:57:47 AM Central Standard Time, suedraper@sympatico.ca writes:
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 3, 2001
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                                In a message dated 2/3/2001 11:57:47 AM Central Standard Time,
                                suedraper@... writes:

                                << Oh, ummmmm. I was talking only about OR coats. Everything I've read says
                                something akin to this is how it was, blah, blah, blah, and then goes on to
                                say *with the exception of Officer's coats, which* blah, blah, blah.

                                Does this shed any light? >>

                                Not necessarily. Basically regulations are written in such a way that you are
                                supposed to refer back up the line for stuff so they don't have to keep
                                repeating it. I mean one quite often comes across instructions for privates
                                that will say for example 'as for sergeant but coat in red not scarlet' in
                                other words if a regulation is laid down and not mentioned again, it is
                                supposed to carry through for all ranks. So if there is a reference to tall
                                officers having increased the numbers of buttons and this is NOT qualified
                                later in the text, privates would logically follow the same regs.
                                However, as I said before, the ONLY reason for doing this is to make the
                                coats look the same.

                                Cheers

                                Tim
                              • Craig Williams
                                Tread carefully Jimmy, Ms. Draper is well versed in the construction of 1812 soldiers clothing. Craig when it comes to matters relating to bastion loops as
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 5, 2001
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                                  Tread carefully Jimmy, Ms. Draper is well versed in the construction of 1812
                                  soldiers clothing.

                                  Craig

                                  when it comes to matters relating to bastion loops as placed
                                  >on a regimental coat of the 41st Regiment of Foot, she is choosing to play
                                  >in my ball-park...
                                  >
                                  >regards,
                                  >
                                  >Jim
                                  >1/41st
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                                  square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                                  square miles...
                                • Maxine Trottier
                                  Someone was telling me about a piece in The Beaver recently. I quote: It appears as if gun registration is not a new issue in Canada. I was particularly
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 5, 2001
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                                    Someone was telling me about a piece in ""The Beaver" recently. I quote: "It
                                    appears as if gun registration is not a new issue in Canada. I was
                                    particularly interested in the fact that in the mid-19th century gun
                                    ownership was quite tightly controlled, however, with the Americans in
                                    ferment to the south, the government did not want all of us disarmed. They
                                    introduced something called <Certificates of Exemption>. In order to get
                                    one, you had to apply to a local Justice of the Peace in person, complete
                                    with references and sponsors. The certificate, once issued, exempted you
                                    from, I gather, most of the regulations."

                                    Comments? Is this still on the books?



                                    Max



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