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Re: Uniform alterations

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  • chimera1@sympatico.ca
    Hey, Larry - where are you? Nobody can seem to document deviations from uniform regulations, but we do so in our re-enactment so we look good. Doug ...
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 31, 2001
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      Hey, Larry - where are you? Nobody can seem to document deviations
      from uniform regulations, but we do so in our re-enactment so we look
      good. Doug



      --- In WarOf1812@y..., BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
      > In a message dated 1/31/2001 6:47:35 PM Central Standard Time,
      > suedraper@s... writes:
      >
      > << <snip> and is certainly current practice. I myself have seen a
      uniform
      > jacket for an officer of the RHA (present day)which had 4 extra
      rows of
      > braiding on it to compensate for the fact he was 6'6" tall.
      > {sue}: but then the question of is it correct comes in, especially
      in light
      > of the two very different tailoring styles between then & now.
      What happens
      > present day isn't what we're portraying, and I thought we were
      trying to
      > portray what we knew was going on then, as opposed to taking
      present day and
      > working backward?>>
      >
      > Perhaps I did not make myself clear Sue, this was the full dress
      jacket, the
      > one directly copied from the mid-Victorian which (apart from the
      staff chord
      > as opposed to Russia braid) is very close to the Jacket worn at
      Waterloo. The
      > fact was that giving the man the correct number of loops made the
      jacket look
      > wrong because there was FAR more space between his loops than every
      other
      > jacket in the regiment. The front of his jacket was 5" longer than
      the
      > longest one in service and the Colonel just didn't like the look so
      he
      > ordered it altered, and Colonels today have FAR less say about what
      their
      > regiments wear than they did back then!
      >
      > <<<snip>You will also find that such anomalies were come across at
      the
      > time. I seem to recall that a certain sergeant of the 1st Foot
      Guards needed
      > 3 coats of the standard large issue for the regimental tailor to
      construct
      > ONE for him.
      > {sue}: I agree that indicates a certain ominous size, but the
      coats the
      > tailors were using were shipped in pieces and then assembled.
      Isn't it
      > likely that the tailor used the 1 coat as his base and then
      borrowed from the
      > other two in order to have sufficient fabric? >>
      >
      > I will admit that there is no account as to how these coat were
      altered.
      > However with even spaced lace I think it is possible that
      lengthening the
      > jacket would have called for an extra row or two of lace to make
      the spacing
      > look the same as the rest of the regiment, though I suppose a
      sergeants sash
      > could cover a multitude of sins.
      >
      > << <snip> According to my research it WAS done at the time :-)
      > {sue}: I haven't managed to come across anything in my research to
      say that
      > it happened, so I've been going by that.
      > >>
      >
      > I will admit that I got a bit carried away when I said a
      definitive 'WAS' but
      > I have come across drawings and accounts of alterations that
      indicate it was
      > a distinct possibility. Remember that the Colonels were very
      involved in
      > uniform supply (some shelled out extra for it, some made money out
      of it) but
      > in a 'smart' regiment anything that did not look uniform would be
      jumped on.
      > I suppose in the end that is the criteria, the ONLY reason for
      doing this is
      > to make someone look the same as everyone else.
      >
      > <<I'd be interested to see yours! (oh, stop, stop)<grin>.
      > >>
      >
      > Ah yes many say that; I will make sure to bring it with me, so
      remind me when
      > we are next at an event.
      > You know, I was going to make a rude joke about you requesting a
      position on
      > the staff but I decided against it! ;-)
      >
      > Cheers
      >
      > Tim
    • Scott McDonald
      ... Well, the 93rd once had such a lad in the regiment. Of course I m speaking of Big Sam MacDonald. He stood 6 10 and 48 around the chest. He was born in
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 31, 2001
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        >Suzy Baby..........
        >
        >.....we are talking about a guy who is damnear' 7' tall !
        >~ if we did the lace thingie as per Warrant,
        > he would look like he was wearing a bib!


        Well, the 93rd once had such a lad in the regiment. Of course I'm speaking
        of "Big Sam" MacDonald. He stood 6'10" and 48" around the chest. He was
        born in 1762 in Lairg, Sutherland (Scotland). He served in the Sutherland
        fencibles from 1779-1783 and in the Royal Scots from 1783 to 1789 where he
        was Fugelman, the man chosen to stand in front of the regiment to lead the
        time and motion when drilling. From 1791 to 1793 he was employed by the
        Prince of Wales and while there appeared in the play 'Cymon and Iphigenia'
        as Hercules. In 1793 he gave up his acting career :) to join the 3rd
        Sutherland Fencibles and was promoted to sergent. On 16th April 1799 he
        joined the newly formed 93rd Regiment where he made sergent in less than a
        week. Sam was too big to stand in the ranks so he stood on the right of the
        line and at the head of the column. On the parade he led the Reg. mascot, a
        red deer. The Countess of Sutherland allowed him extra pay because 'so
        large a body must require more sustenance than his military pay could
        afford.' He died in Gurnsey in 1802 where the Regiment was stationed.

        There is a drawing of Big Sam wearing his 3rd Sutherland Fencibles uniform
        which of course has a much earlier style coat (1793 ish) but it is
        interesting that it has the 10 buttons down each side lapel which I think
        was per regulation at the time and in my humble opinion they appear to be
        spaced a little further apart than some other illustrations of the same
        type uniform.

        I'm not really trying to stir anything up here. I know that Regimental
        tailors had considerable lattitude within the regulations to make certian
        changes so the uniform would fit and they could add certian embellishments,
        especially to bands and flank companies, But regs were regs, especially
        regarding the number of buttons, right?

        OK I could be wrong

        Scott McDonald
      • Larry Lozon
        From: Doug: chimera1@sympatico.ca Hey, Larry - where are you? Nobody can seem to document deviations from uniform regulations, but we do so in our
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 1, 2001
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          From: Doug: chimera1@...

          Hey, Larry - where are you? Nobody can seem to document
          deviations from uniform regulations, but we do so in our
          re-enactment so we look good.

          Doug: I'm here,
          I was leaving this discussion to the tailors, menders,
          seamstresses, sewers, et al.

          My only input was that the dude that we started this thread
          about is 7'ish feet tall,
          sooooooo
          modification would happen to his coat whether it
          be 1812 or 2001.

          The research I have done and the books I have read,
          all say that Regimental tailors altered uniforms per solider,
          again this guy is the "Friendly Giant"
          SOOooooooooo.........

















































          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • mike dollinger
          ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 1, 2001
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            >From: Scott McDonald <raintree@...>
            >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            >To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Uniform alterations
            >Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 01:39:50 -0600
            >right o Scott, any tailor or officer in charge would see the need to
            >stretch the spacing between the loops and it would be done. Uniforms are
            >and were a thing of pride they wouldnt be made to look silly. Mike
            >Dollinger tailor for 78th, 93rd, Von Riedesel and countless other well
            >dressed reenactors!
            > >Suzy Baby..........
            > >
            > >.....we are talking about a guy who is damnear' 7' tall !
            > >~ if we did the lace thingie as per Warrant,
            > > he would look like he was wearing a bib!
            >
            >There is a drawing of Big Sam wearing his 3rd Sutherland Fencibles uniform
            >which of course has a much earlier style coat (1793 ish) but it is
            >interesting that it has the 10 buttons down each side lapel which I think
            >was per regulation at the time and in my humble opinion they appear to be
            >spaced a little further apart than some other illustrations of the same
            >type uniform.
            >
            >I'm not really trying to stir anything up here. I know that Regimental
            >tailors had considerable lattitude within the regulations to make certian
            >changes so the uniform would fit and they could add certian embellishments,
            >especially to bands and flank companies, But regs were regs, especially
            >regarding the number of buttons, right?
            >
            >OK I could be wrong
            >
            >Scott McDonald
            >
            >
            >
            >

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          • Craig Williams
            All I want to say about this is, what do the regs say about the number of loops and who are we to alter that? Craig (Sorry folks I ve been away) ... From:
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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              All I want to say about this is, what do the regs say about the number of
              loops and who are we to alter that?

              Craig
              (Sorry folks I've been away)
              -----Original Message-----
              From: chimera1@... <chimera1@...>
              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 7:22 PM
              Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Uniform alterations


              >I have been waiting with great anticipation for the "campaigners"
              >aka "hard liners" to weigh in on this thread. Where are you, guys?
              >
              >Doug
              >
              >
              >--- In WarOf1812@y..., "Sue Draper" <suedraper@s...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Gotta disagree with you, honey. First off, it's not right. Second
              >off, it can be worked around by adjusting the loop length and
              >distance apart. Ask Forbes about extremely tall people and their
              >coatees. He looked just fine in his, and has made them for tall guys
              >such as he.
              >>
              >>
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: Larry Lozon <lalozon@n...>
              >> To: WarOf1812@y... <WarOf1812@y...>
              >> Date: January 31, 2001 1:24 PM
              >> Subject: [WarOf1812] Uniform alterations
              >>
              >>
              >> From: Sue Draper
              >> I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but holy cow! We're
              >> worried about groundcloths, period skivvies and eyewear, and
              >> yet we're supposed to accept a blatant disregard for army uniform
              >> regulations and accuracy in the most basic aspect of our portrayals
              >> (as in our costuming)? Altering your uniform to try and make it
              >look
              >> less skimpy rather goes against the grain, if you'll pardon the
              >pun.
              >>
              >>
              >> Suzy Baby..........
              >>
              >> .....we are talking about a guy who is damnear' 7' tall !
              >> ~ if we did the lace thingie as per Warrant,
              >> he would look like he was wearing a bib!
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              >> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
              >hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
              >fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
              >>
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              >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
              square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
              square miles...
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