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Re: [WarOf1812] Buttons

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  • lee caripidis
    I am looking for someone to supply buttons for the 1810 coatee of the 4th Reg t USInf. (Approx.46 per coatee). Lacking that, can someone describe to me the
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 29, 2001
      I am looking for someone to supply buttons for the 1810 coatee of the 4th
      Reg't USInf. (Approx.46 per coatee). Lacking that, can someone describe
      to me the process of making molds for same? I can do the sculpture if I
      knew the technology and materials of the process. (Which brings to mind
      the question 'How were they produced two centuries ago')?
      Thanks,
      Lee
    • Bateman, Andrew
      ... Try Peter Twist at The Discriminating General (www.militaryheritage.com). He is often pretty slow and if he does not have the design in stock you will need
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 29, 2001
        > From: lee caripidis
        >
        > I am looking for someone to supply buttons for the 1810
        > coatee of the 4th
        > Reg't USInf. (Approx.46 per coatee).

        Try Peter Twist at The Discriminating General (www.militaryheritage.com).
        He is often pretty slow and if he does not have the design in stock you will
        need to place a minimum order for him to tool up, but it sounds like you
        will meet that requirement if you order enough buttons for a few coats. His
        buttons are the gold standard for the hobby and miles above the home cast
        ones I have seen - he has a centrifugal casting machine that produces crisp
        detail. If you want to see some samples my 41st buttons are from him.

        Andrew Bateman, 1/41st
      • Steve Abolt
        ... Lee, Jim Kochan has reproduced excellent casts of the 1810 pattern button for the 4th Reg t. It is taken from a first generation mold. The casting is
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 29, 2001
          --- lee caripidis <ditlegrec@...> wrote:
          > I am looking for someone to supply buttons for the
          > 1810 coatee of the 4th
          > Reg't USInf.

          Lee,
          Jim Kochan has reproduced excellent casts of the 1810
          pattern button for the 4th Reg't. It is taken from a
          first generation mold. The casting is impeccable. He
          produces the large and small sizes. Contact him at
          marspubs@...

          Warmest regards,
          Steve Abolt

          =====
          Cottonbalers, By God!

          visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

          __________________________________________________
          Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
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        • jas1812
          Another source for American buttons is John Oien and Bob Baker from Fort Atkinson Nebraska. They are working on reproducing buttons that are accurate and more
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 11 8:39 AM
            Another source for American buttons is John Oien and Bob Baker from
            Fort Atkinson Nebraska. They are working on reproducing buttons that
            are accurate and more durable than what is currently available.
            Steve Abolt and Dave Bennett have also seen the quality of their
            work. They currently are not producing any British buttons, but I'm
            sure they would consider it if there was a market.

            Jas Lundgren
            Lt. 6th US
            Ft. Atkinson
          • schuylerfurniture
            Could somebody tell me the number of buttons typically on a standard US War of 1812 uniform for the following: artillery, dragoons, infantry, riflemen, general
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 27, 2011
              Could somebody tell me the number of buttons typically on a standard US War of 1812 uniform for the following: artillery, dragoons, infantry, riflemen, general service, and the officers? Thanks.
            • Brian Howard
              I can tell you the US Infantry coat had 36 buttons which I am pretty certain it was the same for the artillery and gray rifle coats.  Early war and militia
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 4, 2011
                I can tell you the US Infantry coat had 36 buttons which I am pretty certain it was the same for the artillery and gray rifle coats.  Early war and militia uniforms varied from this number.

                Brian
                20th US Inf.
                --- On Thu, 1/27/11, schuylerfurniture <schuylerfurniture@...> wrote:

                From: schuylerfurniture <schuylerfurniture@...>
                Subject: 1812 Buttons
                To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 10:12 AM







                 









                Could somebody tell me the number of buttons typically on a standard US War of 1812 uniform for the following: artillery, dragoons, infantry, riflemen, general service, and the officers? Thanks.

























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • schuylerfurniture
                Thank you for the information, I have another button question. Most jacket buttons are listed as being 20 mm in diameter, and vest buttons are listed as 15 mm
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 16, 2011
                  Thank you for the information, I have another button question. Most jacket buttons are listed as being 20 mm in diameter, and vest buttons are listed as 15 mm in diameter. Were the jacket cuff, collar, or seam buttons smaller than 20 mm? I'm trying to determine if a 15-mm size button is only a vest button, or if it could also be a jacket button used on the jacket cuffs etc. Thanks.

                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Brian Howard <chippokes@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I can tell you the US Infantry coat had 36 buttons [rest snipped by James Yaworsky]
                • Paul Watson
                  As far as I can tell, the buttons on US Rankers coateeswere all the same size.  This is based on those extracted from Snake Hill and several other burial
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 17, 2011
                    As far as I can tell, the buttons on US Rankers coateeswere all the same size.  This is based on those extracted from Snake Hill and several other burial sites.

                    From what I can see as well though, the sizes weren't set in stone.  For example the buttons of the 21st exhumed at Snake Hill were 22.5 mm in diameter, though some foliated I buttons also exhumed from Snake Hill ranged between 19 and 21 mm.  So 20 would be a good average size. 

                    As to waistcoat buttons, all the ones I have seen or read about seem to fall in the 13- 16 mm range, though these were general service buttons (they had just the letters US on them)  the same general service buttons were also on the gaiters.

                    Also about the 36 buttons on the US Infantry coatee, there are examples of them having only 32.  Again this is based on exhumed bodies still wearing their uniforms, so, for example, at Snake Hill.

                    Hope this helps.

                    Paul













                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Steve Abolt
                    On the button question:   Beginning with the pattern of 1812 the US infantry coatee was to have 3 dozen or 36 large corps buttons and two small buttons
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 17, 2011
                      On the button question:
                       
                      Beginning with the pattern of 1812 the US infantry coatee was to have 3 dozen or 36 large corps buttons and two small buttons totaling 38.  The Army worked in ordering buttons by the gross which at 3 dozen equals 4 coats per gross.
                       
                      Of the 38 buttons only 12 were functional.  These being the ten large front closure and two small epaulet buttons.  The remaining buttons were plugged or stayed.  The shank of button is worked through the cloth and "stayed" to the body of the garment by a small strip if linen which is then tacked down. This is no a secure way to fix buttons and accounts for many battlefield pick ups.
                       
                      The Army viewd garments as follows: coats, garments coming to the bend of the knee, coatees, short tailed coats terminating at the bottom of the buttocks or breech, and round jackets a garment sans tails.  
                       
                      The large buttons on the coat are about 3/4" in size.  The small corps buttons average between 1/2" and 5/8".
                       
                      The pattern of 1813 gaiter called for 30 small corps buttons.  Correspondence between Callendar Irvine the Commissary General of Purchases, and materials lists found in the National Archives indicates this.  There is also correspondence of the buttons and the gaiters in unmade form being shipped to various depots for completion.
                       
                      Vests or vests with sleeves known as round jackets used small pattern buttons, the same size as used for epaulets.  Small buttons will remain standard issue on US roundabouts through the American Civil War.
                       
                      Regiments 1-7 were issued issued, early in the war, a linen round jacket with an 8 button front.  As the pattern evolved by 1813 the front was changed to a 9 button front.  The early pattern linen round jacket had no epaulets.  But, by the change in 1813 creating a woolen vest with sleeves, the epaulets were added necessitating a total of 11 buttons per jacket.
                       
                      Regiments 1-7 had distinctive buttons. Regiments 8 to 17 were issued the foliated pattern with the number in the oval.  With further augmentation of the army distinctive buttons for higher regiments were not issued but rather foliated I buttons with either a blank oval to have a number stamped in, or a knights rowel commonly mistaken for a star.
                       
                      The US general service button was used on watch coats, fatigue frocks and sometimes trousers.  In lieu or corps buttons they could also be substituted on jackets.

                      An interesting note on the placement of buttons in the Snake Hill cemetery.  One of the bodies clearly shows a field modification of the trousers by the addition of an extra button placed on the bearers. This kept the trousers from gapping at the flap closure. The four hole suspender buttons total 8 which is what is called for in the materials list.  The four hole button wil lremain standard on US trousers through 1851.
                       
                      For excellent examples of US military buttons please consult Alberts reference book.
                       
                      All the best,
                      S.





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Phil Graf
                      I feel like I just took a class.. Phil Graf _____ From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Abolt Sent: Thursday,
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 17, 2011
                        I feel like I just took a class..



                        Phil Graf



                        _____

                        From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Steve Abolt
                        Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 5:11 PM
                        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: 1812 Re: Buttons - U.S.





                        On the button question:

                        Beginning with the pattern of 1812 the US infantry coatee was to have 3
                        dozen or 36 large corps buttons and two small buttons totaling 38. The Army
                        worked in ordering buttons by the gross which at 3 dozen equals 4 coats per
                        gross.

                        Of the 38 buttons only 12 were functional. These being the ten large front
                        closure and two small epaulet buttons. The remaining buttons were plugged
                        or stayed. The shank of button is worked through the cloth and "stayed" to
                        the body of the garment by a small strip if linen which is then tacked down.
                        This is no a secure way to fix buttons and accounts for many battlefield
                        pick ups.

                        The Army viewd garments as follows: coats, garments coming to the bend of
                        the knee, coatees, short tailed coats terminating at the bottom of the
                        buttocks or breech, and round jackets a garment sans tails.

                        The large buttons on the coat are about 3/4" in size. The small corps
                        buttons average between 1/2" and 5/8".

                        The pattern of 1813 gaiter called for 30 small corps buttons.
                        Correspondence between Callendar Irvine the Commissary General of Purchases,
                        and materials lists found in the National Archives indicates this. There is
                        also correspondence of the buttons and the gaiters in unmade form being
                        shipped to various depots for completion.

                        Vests or vests with sleeves known as round jackets used small pattern
                        buttons, the same size as used for epaulets. Small buttons will remain
                        standard issue on US roundabouts through the American Civil War.

                        Regiments 1-7 were issued issued, early in the war, a linen round jacket
                        with an 8 button front. As the pattern evolved by 1813 the front was
                        changed to a 9 button front. The early pattern linen round jacket had no
                        epaulets. But, by the change in 1813 creating a woolen vest with sleeves,
                        the epaulets were added necessitating a total of 11 buttons per jacket.

                        Regiments 1-7 had distinctive buttons. Regiments 8 to 17 were issued the
                        foliated pattern with the number in the oval. With further augmentation of
                        the army distinctive buttons for higher regiments were not issued but rather
                        foliated I buttons with either a blank oval to have a number stamped in, or
                        a knights rowel commonly mistaken for a star.

                        The US general service button was used on watch coats, fatigue frocks and
                        sometimes trousers. In lieu or corps buttons they could also be substituted
                        on jackets.

                        An interesting note on the placement of buttons in the Snake Hill cemetery.
                        One of the bodies clearly shows a field modification of the trousers by the
                        addition of an extra button placed on the bearers. This kept the trousers
                        from gapping at the flap closure. The four hole suspender buttons total 8
                        which is what is called for in the materials list. The four hole button wil
                        lremain standard on US trousers through 1851.

                        For excellent examples of US military buttons please consult Alberts
                        reference book.

                        All the best,
                        S.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • schuylerfurniture
                        Excellent! Thanks to everyone that helped.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 18, 2011
                          Excellent! Thanks to everyone that helped.



                          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Phil Graf <phil_graf@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I feel like I just took a class..
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Phil Graf
                          >
                        • Steve Abolt
                          Phil, And it didn t cost a dime.  See you next week at Washington on the Brazos.   S. ...   I feel like I just took a class.. Phil Graf [Non-text portions
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 18, 2011
                            Phil,
                            And it didn't cost a dime.  See you next week at Washington on the Brazos.
                             
                            S.

                            --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Phil Graf <phil_graf@...> wrote:
                             





                            I feel like I just took a class..

                            Phil Graf






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Phil Graf
                            You ll be there? Great! I ve wanted to meet you in person for several years now. Phil _____ From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 18, 2011
                              You'll be there? Great! I've wanted to meet you in person for several
                              years now.



                              Phil



                              _____

                              From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of Steve Abolt
                              Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 8:48 AM
                              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: 1812 Re: Buttons - U.S.





                              Phil,
                              And it didn't cost a dime. See you next week at Washington on the Brazos.

                              S.





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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