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Officers from the ranks....

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  • Terry Lubka
    Big sigh..... This is the reason why officers in 1812 reenacting should come from the ranks. 1/ They learn the drill therefore they know what commands to say
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 31, 2000
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      Big sigh.....
      This is the reason why officers in 1812 reenacting should come from the
      ranks.
      1/ They learn the drill therefore they know what commands to say and how it
      should be said.
      2/ They learn what it's like to stand still at the shoulder arms for a long
      time. Therefore they know when to rest the ranks when in command.
      3/ They get the respect from the ranks because they have learned from the
      ranks.
      4/ They have spent years coming up through the rank structure and therefore
      have developed a vast knowledge on just who everyone is.
      5/ They know what's expected of corporals, Sgt's, Lt.'s, Capt.'s, etc.
      because they were once one.
      6/ Because it took some years to climb up the rank structure they are well
      versed on safety and know just how dangerous our firearms and artillery are.
      7/ And finally officers from the ranks know how to yell commands. How many
      times have I experienced being in the ranks and not heard an officier's
      commands!!! Case in point. I came up the ranks in the IMUC. as a private we
      on the left of the line sometimes couldn't hear the commands. When I
      eventually made Sgt. I remembered this and bellowed out my orders. No one
      complained about not hearing me. The result was a line of men that moved on
      time and a snappier drill.

      1812 reenacting is conducted in modern times by people who have modern
      lives. Yes officers back then very rarely came from the ranks but the
      officer system back then worked because it was a full time job. We as
      reenactors do this on a very limited basis therefore the learning curve for
      an officer would be substantually larger. Who has the patience to work with
      something like that?

      Those who think that you need not come up from the ranks to be an officier
      answer me this. Just who gets your money for the purchase of your
      commission? :-)

      For those "officers" who prance on the field with know rank experience
      please stay off the field. Better yet if you want to be a peacock then strut
      your stuff behind the lines, that's the audience lines....


      Now let the fireworks begin!

      Terry. (taking cover, naw to hell with it. Standing front and center)
    • Dave Hill
      I can no longer avoid taking part in this discussion. If Terry can stand up and take it so can I. Firstly, I am a Corporal (after twenty years as a private)
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 31, 2000
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        I can no longer avoid taking part in this discussion. If Terry can
        stand up and take it so can I.
        Firstly, I am a Corporal (after twenty years as a private) and I have
        no desire to become an officer; mainly because I would make a lousy
        officer. I know the drill (better than some officers and sergeants
        I've seen), and I could run a line on the field. What I couldn't do
        is carry off the persona of an 1812 officer. I will try and explain
        what I mean by using an example. Some years ago, on the front lawn
        at Stoney Creek, we had just finished what we in IMUC call our dog
        and pony show. That is a demonstration of line firing, light
        infantry, a side of a square, etc. We were marching off to polite
        applause when it suddenly increased. I glanced back and our officer,
        Barry Sandler, was bowing to the audience and they loved it. I had
        Barry try and teach me to do a proper bow and it was hopeless; I'm
        just not the right stuff. Some people like Barry, Craig, and Tim can
        carry it off naturally and some others can learn to carry it off, but
        some of us can't.
        Tim's point is very valid, some people make good officers and others
        make good rankers.
        In 1812, your family's position in society decided which you would be
        with a few exceptions. Things aren't that simple in 2001.

        Our major problem is that nobody gets killed. In the 1812 army,
        vacancies occurred through sickness and wounds and the junior people,
        if they survived, moved up. We don't lose that many senior people so
        there are no vacancies.
        For an important event IMUC can usually field about twenty muskets.
        This number has varied over the years but twenty is a fair average.
        With twenty muskets, we can reasonably have two corporals and two
        chosen men who are firing We reasonably can have two Sergeants,
        two Lieutenants, and a Captain. This means that we have sixteen
        privates.
        The reality is that most of those sixteen men are not ever going to
        have any rank unless somebody above them leaves the hobby, or steps
        down from their position. In twenty-two years I've known one officer
        who stepped back into the ranks and he still comes out as a private
        when he is able.

        In IMUC our officers and non-coms have all come up through the ranks
        and that is one reason we trust our officers and non-coms. On the
        field we take our orders from our officers and non-coms and its is
        their problem to deal with anyone who is parading about in a fancy
        uniform. That's why they get the big bucks.

        A school for officers and non-coms would be a good idea but the
        graduates will still have to win their place in a unit. We should
        also remember that a two day course won't make an officer or a
        non-com. Some people who want to be officers could spend four years
        at the boy's school on the Hudson and still never be an officer,

        Dave.



        --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, "Terry Lubka" <tlubka@p...> wrote:
        Big sigh.....
        For those "officers" who prance on the field with know rank
        experience please stay off the field. Better yet if you want to be a
        peacock then strut your stuff behind the lines, that's the audience
        lines....

        Now let the fireworks begin!

        Terry. (taking cover, naw to hell with it. Standing front and
        center)
      • Col Sjt Jones
        How true Terry! In my time as line sjt and CO of IMUC I also used full volume. Let s face it we are not silent drill squads. Commanders should be confident
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 31, 2000
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          How true Terry! In my time as line sjt and CO of IMUC I also used
          full volume. Let's face it we are not silent drill squads.
          Commanders should be confident in their commands and not keep them a
          semi-secret.

          In addition to being heard by your people, it is an auditory
          experience for the spectators.

          As a person undergoing CF officer training many years ago, we were
          taught that we were in competition to be heard against the adjacent
          unit commanders and the bands.

          We were taught voice of command/projection under strenuous training
          circumstances, with punishment if you couldn't be heard.

          Perhaps the people who will be running the officer/NCO courses could
          include training in enunciating from the diaphragm rather than the
          throat, so that a commander's voice is not lost to a hoarse gargle
          half way through a battle.

          Doug



          --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, "Terry Lubka" <tlubka@p...> wrote:
          > Big sigh.....
          And finally officers from the ranks know how to yell commands. How
          many
          > times have I experienced being in the ranks and not heard an
          officier's
          > commands!!! Case in point. I came up the ranks in the IMUC. as a
          private we
          > on the left of the line sometimes couldn't hear the commands. When I
          > eventually made Sgt. I remembered this and bellowed out my orders.
          No one
          > complained about not hearing me. The result was a line of men that
          moved on
          > time and a snappier drill.
          >
        • Kevin Windsor
          Terry I agree with many of your points. I think safety and knowing what it is like to carry a musket and how damned heavy those things get is an important
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 1, 2001
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            Terry I agree with many of your points. I think safety and knowing what it is like to carry a musket and how damned heavy those things get is an important thing for
            officers to remember. However, I don't think that an officer should be excluded from the field because he wants to partray himself (herself. DUCK INCOMMING!!)as a
            dandy. I think that if an officer knows the drill than strut all you want! It would be good to see the officers as upperclasses instead of the serjeant with a really
            expensive uniform that we often see.

            Terry Lubka wrote:

            > For those "officers" who prance on the field with know rank experience
            > please stay off the field. Better yet if you want to be a peacock then strut
            > your stuff behind the lines, that's the audience lines....
            >
            > Now let the fireworks begin!
            >
            > Terry. (taking cover, naw to hell with it. Standing front and center)
          • HQ93rd@aol.com
            In a message dated 12/31/00 5:01:42 PM, chimera1@sympatico.ca writes:
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 1, 2001
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              In a message dated 12/31/00 5:01:42 PM, chimera1@... writes:

              << We were taught voice of command/projection under strenuous training
              circumstances, with punishment if you couldn't be heard.

              Perhaps the people who will be running the officer/NCO courses could
              include training in enunciating from the diaphragm rather than the
              throat, so that a commander's voice is not lost to a hoarse gargle
              half way through a battle. >>

              Amen to that!

              B
              93rd SHRoFLHU
              THE Thin Red Line
              www.93rdhighlanders.com
            • Col Sjt Jones
              An individual unit can decide itself if it wants to have an officer from within its ranks or an outsider. If the officer wishes to portray himself as a dandy
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 1, 2001
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                An individual unit can decide itself if it wants to have an officer
                from within its ranks or an outsider. If the officer wishes to
                portray himself as a dandy - fine.

                But an individual unaffiliated "officer" who shows up at an event
                even with a proper uniform and officer-like attitude has no role. In
                our area (and I suppose we have the largest 1812 events in North
                America) we have seen them. They kind of wander aimlessly around the
                battlefield behind the lines. Since they are unaffiliated they may
                also be rather lonely in camp. We have respected, efficient and
                knowledgeable officers as field and general commanders, all who have
                come up through their units. There is no need for more officers.

                Within the 1812 movement, there seems to be a trend to diverse micro
                units. The IMUC attended an "event" at Gananoque a few years ago
                (and we enjoyed ourselves). There was a three person unit doing the
                King's 8th. Their uniforms were OK. The colour sjt was the wife -
                she came up to my shoulder and carried a dinky union jack. Her
                husband was the officer. Their uncle was the private. They were
                very nice people, but there are no larger formed units in their area
                which they could have joined, or which could have provided advice.

                Would you want that officer, even after a 2 day course, commanding
                you in a field grade at an event?

                A training course may upgrade the portrayal skills of existing or
                potential officers within units, but I submit it will fail in
                producing acceptable field grade officers.

                Doug


                --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, Kevin Windsor <kevin.windsor@s...>
                wrote:
                However, I don't think that an officer should be excluded from the
                field because he wants to partray himself ----- as a
                > dandy. I think that if an officer knows the drill than strut all
                you want! It would be good to see the officers as upperclasses
                instead of the serjeant with a really
                > expensive uniform that we often see.
                >
                > Terry Lubka wrote:
                >
                > > For those "officers" who prance on the field with know rank
                experience
                > > please stay off the field. Better yet if you want to be a peacock
                then strut
                > > your stuff behind the lines, that's the audience lines....
                > >
                > > Now let the fireworks begin!
                > >
                > > Terry. (taking cover, naw to hell with it. Standing front and
                center)
              • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                In a message dated 1/1/2001 4:40:16 PM Central Standard Time, HQ93rd@aol.com writes:
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 1, 2001
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                  In a message dated 1/1/2001 4:40:16 PM Central Standard Time, HQ93rd@...
                  writes:

                  << Perhaps the people who will be running the officer/NCO courses could
                  include training in enunciating from the diaphragm rather than the
                  throat, so that a commander's voice is not lost to a hoarse gargle
                  half way through a battle. >>

                  Amen to that!
                  >>

                  Yes, its called singing! A (long) while ago there was a programe about the
                  preparations for Trooping the Colour for the Queens Birthday Parade. It was
                  pointed out that the Brigade Major (the chap who sits on his horse shouting
                  out all the orders) go 6 months of singing lessons to teach him how to
                  project from the diaphragm and not wreck his throat in a few minuets.
                  I can also just remember when all the regiments of Foot Guards had slightly
                  different notes to the orders so that, if more than one unit was on parade at
                  the same time, it was obvious which officer was giving the orders.

                  Cheers

                  Tim
                • Kevin Windsor
                  So Tim if you set your orders to Julie Andrews from the sound of music we will know it s you okay!! ;-) Leave the guitar at home though wouldn t want to be
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 1, 2001
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                    So Tim if you set your orders to Julie Andrews from the sound of music we will know it's you okay!!
                    ;-)
                    Leave the guitar at home though wouldn't want to be accused of being a farb! ;-)

                    BritcomHMP@... wrote:

                    >
                    > I can also just remember when all the regiments of Foot Guards had slightly
                    > different notes to the orders so that, if more than one unit was on parade at
                    > the same time, it was obvious which officer was giving the orders.
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    >
                    > Tim
                    >
                  • Col Sjt Jones
                    ... HQ93rd@a... ... could ... about the ... Parade. It was ... shouting ... to ... minuets. ... slightly ... parade at ... In my early days as commanding sjt
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 1, 2001
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                      --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
                      > In a message dated 1/1/2001 4:40:16 PM Central Standard Time,
                      HQ93rd@a...
                      > writes:
                      >
                      > << Perhaps the people who will be running the officer/NCO courses
                      could
                      > include training in enunciating from the diaphragm rather than the
                      > throat, so that a commander's voice is not lost to a hoarse gargle
                      > half way through a battle. >>
                      >
                      > Amen to that!
                      > >>
                      >
                      > Yes, its called singing! A (long) while ago there was a programe
                      about the
                      > preparations for Trooping the Colour for the Queens Birthday
                      Parade. It was
                      > pointed out that the Brigade Major (the chap who sits on his horse
                      shouting
                      > out all the orders) go 6 months of singing lessons to teach him how
                      to
                      > project from the diaphragm and not wreck his throat in a few
                      minuets.
                      > I can also just remember when all the regiments of Foot Guards had
                      slightly
                      > different notes to the orders so that, if more than one unit was on
                      parade at
                      > the same time, it was obvious which officer was giving the orders.
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      >
                      > Tim

                      In my early days as commanding sjt of the Imuc I was apparently known
                      as the "singing serjeant". I suppose both for my elevated voice of
                      command and the fact that my commands were usually attenuated in
                      modern fashion - and that my singing voice is high. Doug
                    • JGIL1812@aol.com
                      In a message dated 12/31/00 11:41:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, tlubka@pathcom.com writes:
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 1, 2001
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                        In a message dated 12/31/00 11:41:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                        tlubka@... writes:

                        << Now let the fireworks begin!

                        Terry. (taking cover, naw to hell with it. Standing front and center)
                        >>

                        Terry,

                        Suicide would've been cheaper and a whole lot easier!

                        JG/RE
                      • HQ93rd@aol.com
                        In a message dated 1/1/01 4:56:22 PM, chimera1@sympatico.ca writes:
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 2, 2001
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                          In a message dated 1/1/01 4:56:22 PM, chimera1@... writes:

                          << An individual unit can decide itself if it wants to have an officer
                          from within its ranks or an outsider. If the officer wishes to
                          portray himself as a dandy - fine. >>

                          As in "fine and dandy"....?

                          B
                          93rd SHRoFLHU
                          THE Thin Red Line
                          www.93rdhighlanders.com
                        • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                          In a message dated 1/1/2001 10:53:04 PM Central Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes:
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 2, 2001
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                            In a message dated 1/1/2001 10:53:04 PM Central Standard Time,
                            kevin.windsor@... writes:

                            << So Tim if you set your orders to Julie Andrews from the sound of music we
                            will know it's you okay!!
                            ;-)
                            Leave the guitar at home though wouldn't want to be accused of being a farb!
                            ;-)
                            >>

                            He storms a trench, gives his leg a wrench,
                            His uniform has a rent,
                            He ambles when he should quick march,
                            He cannot pitch a tent,
                            And when it comes to drinking then his cash has all been spent.
                            I even heard him singing after lights out!

                            High on a hill is a lonely Staff Officer
                            Lay hodalady yodelady ho!

                            Sorry, pardon! Did someone say something? :-)
                          • Col Sjt Jones
                            Further to the hopefully humorous remarks I made at the bottom of this, I would like to re-emphasize that the voice of command training to which I referred was
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 2, 2001
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                              Further to the hopefully humorous remarks I made at the bottom of
                              this, I would like to re-emphasize that the voice of command training
                              to which I referred was for junior officers. It wasn't intended to
                              be elegant or to resemble singing - simply the ability to be heard
                              and not to lose one's voice. Doug



                              --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, "Col Sjt Jones" <chimera1@s...> wrote:
                              > --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
                              > > In a message dated 1/1/2001 4:40:16 PM Central Standard Time,
                              > HQ93rd@a...
                              > > writes:
                              > >
                              > > << Perhaps the people who will be running the officer/NCO courses
                              > could
                              > > include training in enunciating from the diaphragm rather than
                              the
                              > > throat, so that a commander's voice is not lost to a hoarse
                              gargle
                              > > half way through a battle. >>
                              > >
                              > > Amen to that!
                              > > >>
                              > >
                              > > Yes, its called singing! A (long) while ago there was a programe
                              > about the
                              > > preparations for Trooping the Colour for the Queens Birthday
                              > Parade. It was
                              > > pointed out that the Brigade Major (the chap who sits on his
                              horse
                              > shouting
                              > > out all the orders) go 6 months of singing lessons to teach him
                              how
                              > to
                              > > project from the diaphragm and not wreck his throat in a few
                              > minuets.
                              > > I can also just remember when all the regiments of Foot Guards
                              had
                              > slightly
                              > > different notes to the orders so that, if more than one unit was
                              on
                              > parade at
                              > > the same time, it was obvious which officer was giving the orders.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers
                              > >
                              > > Tim
                              >
                              > In my early days as commanding sjt of the Imuc I was apparently
                              known
                              > as the "singing serjeant". I suppose both for my elevated voice of
                              > command and the fact that my commands were usually attenuated in
                              > modern fashion - and that my singing voice is high. Doug
                            • HQ93rd@aol.com
                              In a message dated 1/2/01 4:40:30 PM, chimera1@sympatico.ca writes:
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 2, 2001
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                                In a message dated 1/2/01 4:40:30 PM, chimera1@... writes:

                                << Further to the hopefully humorous remarks I made at the bottom of
                                this, I would like to re-emphasize that the voice of command training
                                to which I referred was for junior officers. It wasn't intended to
                                be elegant or to resemble singing - simply the ability to be heard
                                and not to lose one's voice. >>

                                Yes, but the thing is, even after the jokes, Tim is quite correct. It is
                                indeed "singing" as it is the same basic techniques. (Trust me...)

                                B
                                93rd SHRoFLHU
                                THE Thin Red Line
                                www.93rdhighlanders.com
                              • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                                In a message dated 1/3/2001 9:07:20 AM Central Standard Time, sgtwarnr@idirect.ca writes:
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 3, 2001
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                                  In a message dated 1/3/2001 9:07:20 AM Central Standard Time,
                                  sgtwarnr@... writes:

                                  << What's that I hear? is that you Tim?

                                  ....I am the very model of a modern Major General...

                                  Sooner or later we all do a little G&S!
                                  >>

                                  Well Craig, having been a member of the Harrogate Gilbert and Sullivan
                                  Society, and having done lots of chorus stuff and various principal parts in
                                  concert (Lord Tolloler's 'When Britain Really Ruled the Waves' was a
                                  specialty at one time) your ON!

                                  Cheers

                                  Tim
                                • Craig Williams
                                  What s that I hear? is that you Tim? ....I am the very model of a modern Major General... Sooner or later we all do a little G&S! Tuppence Craig
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 3, 2001
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                                    What's that I hear? is that you Tim?

                                    ....I am the very model of a modern Major General...

                                    Sooner or later we all do a little G&S!

                                    Tuppence
                                    Craig
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