Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Filming at re-enactments

Expand Messages
  • James Burrill
    So the unpleasant sum of the above numerology equates to 4000 reenactors on Gettysburg being simply ripped off, exploited, manipulated and
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 8, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      <Snip from Benton>

      So the unpleasant sum of the above numerology equates to 4000 reenactors on
      "Gettysburg" being simply ripped off, exploited, manipulated and the
      proverbial bent over. Sorry folks -- but that is reality.

      <Un-snip>

      The reality is that the Rebs who charged up that hill had a woody as long as
      their Enfields to get to be apart of "Pickett's Charge". Of the thousands
      who did it, how many were thinking of the paycheck as they dressed their
      lines for the charge...
    • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
      In a message dated 4/8/99 11:55:13 PM Central Daylight Time, jburrill@dttus.com writes:
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 9, 1999
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 4/8/99 11:55:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
        jburrill@... writes:

        << The reality is that the Rebs who charged up that hill had a woody as long
        as
        their Enfields to get to be apart of "Pickett's Charge". Of the thousands
        who did it, how many were thinking of the paycheck as they dressed their
        lines for the charge...
        >>

        And that Jim is the difference between an amateur and a professional. I am
        sorry to have to repeat this, the INDUSTRY only respects professionalism.

        Cheers

        Tim
      • James Burrill
        A professional Extra? Gee, now THAT is a career to aspire to! I guess I made a grave mistake being a professional military careerists and made the same mistake
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 9, 1999
        • 0 Attachment
          A professional Extra?

          Gee, now THAT is a career to aspire to! I guess I made a grave mistake
          being a professional military careerists and made the same mistake yet
          again when I became a educator.

          Do you really want to tell the rest of this list of reenactors that
          their pursuits are not judged as good as off-the-street-corner day
          hires as "Extras"?

          There was a sying in the photography business that the only difference
          between an "Amature" and a "Professional" photography was whether one
          sold his pictures or not. Not the "Professional Ability" or artistic
          eye of the photographer.

          Let me say again: If it is a big budget production and the crowd that
          hangs out at the unemployment office (or local bar) is being payed
          scale and given a uniform, then damn right I want to be paid.

          But except for maybe 7 reenactors who called themselves "Professional
          Actors" I have met since 1980, the rest of us take time off from work,
          use up some weekends, or otherwise go out of our way to participate in
          a historic themed production BECAUSE IT IS AN EXTENSION OF OUR HOBBY
          AND HISTORIC INTERESTS!

          We don't really care about quibbling over pay with an obviously shoe
          string production. AND DOGGONE IT!!! I am NOT talking about a Bruce
          Willis starring, big-budget, Theatrical release, Speilburg directed
          production either!!!

          They might look at your unit as "a bunch of extras w/uniform" but I am
          trying to make the point that there are low budget productions that
          support our historical interests that marvel when when the reenactors
          show up, set up camp, put on their kit and form up. Instant Army!

          Rather than adopting a policy of all or nothing, I am pleading with
          the readers of the list to be adaptible to the situation! Consider the
          trade between your time and efforts to participate, against the topic
          of the production. If you can later say, "Yep! That was the best film
          about the battle of ........ that has ever been done and look at that
          column into line! That's the Umpty-third Regt. from CT ! Damn! those
          guys are good!

          Then maybe it was fair value exchanged.

          I think, Tim, that I can portray a Soldier more "professionally" than
          a day-hire Extra. Whether I choose to charge for my time or donate it
          is my choice and speaks nothing of"professional ability".

          So when you say <SNIP "And that Jim is the difference between an
          amateur and a professional. I am sorry to have to repeat this, the
          INDUSTRY only respects professionalism."UNSNIP> That the "Chronically
          un-employed" and street corner hang-abouts (like they hired to fill
          the ranks in GLORY) are "respected" more by the whole film industry
          than teachers, craftsmen, soldiers, carpenters, accountants, CEOs, or
          doctors whose hobby is living history and we are not concerned about
          an extra's pay??

          I just had a thought! Why don't we get the Screen Actors Guild to let
          all us reenactors join their union! Gee! How can I apply for a Union
          Card???
          Oh! wait! I remember now, you are either born with one, inherit one,
          be hired by the production first and sent over to get one, ( of
          course, you can't apply for any parts unless you already have a card!)
          or like I learned in film school: form a production company,then hire
          the entire company as "cast", get your cards and then fold up the
          company, And Voila! Now you are a SAG Union Professional!






          ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
          Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Filming at re-enactments
          Author: BritcomHMP@... at Internet-USA
          Date: 4/9/99 8:00 AM


          From: BritcomHMP@...

          In a message dated 4/8/99 11:55:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
          jburrill@... writes:

          << The reality is that the Rebs who charged up that hill had a woody as long
          as
          their Enfields to get to be apart of "Pickett's Charge". Of the thousands
          who did it, how many were thinking of the paycheck as they dressed their
          lines for the charge...
          >>

          And that Jim is the difference between an amateur and a professional. I am
          sorry to have to repeat this, the INDUSTRY only respects professionalism.

          Cheers

          Tim

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
          to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
          select the Member Center link from the menu bar on the left.
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square
          miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square
          miles...
        • NINETY3RD@xxx.xxx
          ... Actually, there is (or was - I believe it has merged somewhat) an Extras Union. And there are indeed professional extras making all the amounts I
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 9, 1999
          • 0 Attachment
            In a message dated 09/4/1999 7:27:00 AM, jburrill@... writes:

            >A professional Extra?

            Actually, there is (or was - I believe it has merged somewhat) an Extras
            Union. And there are indeed "professional extras" making all the amounts I
            previously listed, many of whom out here in LALA land work more than most
            "real" actors.

            >> Gee, now THAT is a career to aspire to! I guess I made a grave mistake
            >
            > being a professional military careerists and made the same mistake
            >yet
            > again when I became a educator.

            Now we are taking it personally which there is no need to do. Let's skip that
            part...

            > Do you really want to tell the rest of this list of reenactors that
            > their pursuits are not judged as good as off-the-street-corner day
            > hires as "Extras"?

            That is exactly what Tim is saying. And he is exactly right. We (reenactors)
            are first judged by how much we cost, which has little to do with how much we
            know, what e have, etc. Not a feel-good-feeling. But that is the way it is.
            The truth hurts, and all that.

            <snip>

            > Let me say again: If it is a big budget production and the crowd that
            > hangs out at the unemployment office (or local bar) is being payed
            > scale and given a uniform, then damn right I want to be paid.

            So what is the difference between a "pro" on a big budget and a "pro" on a
            small budget? The minimum pay scale for each -- for whatever the job (camera,
            actor, grip, extra, ...) is still the same.

            > But except for maybe 7 reenactors who called themselves "Professional
            Actors" I have met since 1980, the rest of us take time off from work,
            > use up some weekends, or otherwise go out of our way to participate
            >in a historic themed production BECAUSE IT IS AN EXTENSION OF OUR HOBBY
            > AND HISTORIC INTERESTS!

            So? ANY hobbits (stamp collector, hotrodder, golfer, photographer, hiker,
            etc., etc.) does the same thing -- takes time off to enjoy their hobby. Again
            -- so?
            A film or TV show IS NOT an extension of the hobby! A TV show on stamp
            collecting is, sure. It is speaking to stamp collectors and showing them
            helpful things to do. Even still, all the crew on the cameras, lights,
            editing machines and even the host are getting PAID. This is apples to
            oranges comparison however to films which are depicting either in story form
            or documentary form incidents from history. They are not made as "extensions"
            to anyone's hobby. They are made for PROFIT.
            No matter what good intentions the docu maker had when telling the unknown
            story of "X Battalion", there is still the BOTTOM LINE. For anyone to ever
            see the story of "X Battalion" the film has to be sold (Money). To first make
            the film, the film material itself has to be manufactured and bought (Money).
            The camera has to manufactured and bought or rented (Money). The film has to
            be developed (Money). Edited on machine which was made then sold or rented
            (Money). , Etc. (Money) , Etc. (Money) , Etc. (Money). Even should most of
            the basic film making material be "donated" as a charity to help, say, a PBS
            station make the product, whoever did the donating gets a nice tax deduction
            (Money).

            > We don't really care about quibbling over pay with an obviously shoe
            > string production. AND DOGGONE IT!!! I am NOT talking about a Bruce
            > Willis starring, big-budget, Theatrical release, Speilburg directed
            > production either!!!

            You should. I covered this above and earlier as well.
            My use earlier in a post of "Bruce Willis" was merely as a frame of reference
            to the amount that should/could have been paid to the Gettysburg "extras" and
            how the amount could/should have been paid. (I knew even then it would be
            taken out of context...)

            > They might look at your unit as "a bunch of extras w/uniform" but
            >I am trying to make the point that there are low budget productions that
            support our historical interests that marvel when when the reenactors
            > show up, set up camp, put on their kit and form up. Instant Army!
            > Rather than adopting a policy of all or nothing, I am pleading with
            > the readers of the list to be adaptible to the situation!

            I stated in an earlier post that if there was a project made specifically for
            and for the benefit of am historic site (for instance) -- to be shown only at
            that site, or all proceeds to benefit it, then that is something else and
            indeed does not always fall into this category.

            >Consider
            >the trade between your time and efforts to participate, against the topic
            > of the production. If you can later say, "Yep! That was the best
            >film about the battle of ........ that has ever been done and look at
            that
            > column into line! That's the Umpty-third Regt. from CT ! Damn! those
            > guys are good!
            > Then maybe it was fair value exchanged.

            For what? I can go play golf (I don't, but this is an example) and get
            someone to video me and later watch it and say "Wow! Look at that swing!
            Wasn't that great!" Very nice, and I feel all good all over! The video tape
            company made money, the camera company made money and maybe the guy I got to
            tape me made money. Did they care about how "good" I feel? Sure -- as long as
            I bought and buy their product!

            > I think, Tim, that I can portray a Soldier more "professionally" than
            > a day-hire Extra. Whether I choose to charge for my time or donate
            >it is my choice and speaks nothing of"professional ability".
            > So when you say <SNIP "And that Jim is the difference between an
            > amateur and a professional. I am sorry to have to repeat this, the
            > INDUSTRY only respects professionalism."UNSNIP> That the "Chronically
            > un-employed" and street corner hang-abouts (like they hired to fill
            > the ranks in GLORY) are "respected" more by the whole film industry
            > than teachers, craftsmen, soldiers, carpenters, accountants, CEOs,or
            > doctors whose hobby is living history and we are not concerned about
            > an extra's pay??

            You got it. They couldn't care less what one does in real life unless they
            can use it somehow -- and if they don't have to pay one for that as well, so
            much the better. The fact one can portray a soldier better than an off the
            street extra makes *them* feel good in that they got one so cheap thus not
            only increasing the quality of their product but at so low cost! You bet
            they'll have big smiles and lots of "atta boys" to hand out! Smiles and attas
            don't cost a thing.
            You are right, its your choice. Your choice to be exploited and cheated. Your
            choice to make it possible for more film makers to exploit your fellow
            reenactors in later productions. Your choice to set up your fellow hobbyists
            for the next producer who heard about all the free labor he can get. Your
            choice to put in place the precedents which take fair pay away from your
            living history comrades, pay which could buy a new uniform or musket. Your
            choice to hinder and hurt than rather than protect your friends.
            Yep, your choice.

            > I just had a thought! Why don't we get the Screen Actors Guild to
            >let all us reenactors join their union! Gee! How can I apply for a Union
            Card???
            > Oh! wait! I remember now, you are either born with one, inherit one,
            > be hired by the production first and sent over to get one, ( of
            > course, you can't apply for any parts unless you already have a card!)
            > or like I learned in film school: form a production company,then hire
            > the entire company as "cast", get your cards and then fold up the
            > company, And Voila! Now you are a SAG Union Professional!

            Amazing ain't it? Part of all the silly process is to try to keep down the
            number of those with no acting talent whatsoever who think they can be
            "moveee starrz".
            But this is not about everyone in reenacting getting to be "pro" and union
            actors.
            This discussion is about reenactors getting cheated and exploited.
            There are a couple of us who have taken the time and effort to try and help
            our fellow "hobbyists" with information on the industry, how it works and
            what fair pay should be.
            Then there are a couple of folks who for some reason are all steamed about it
            and seem more to be taking the side of those who would cheat and rip off our
            hobbyists rather than help to protect and inform them. Or perhaps they are
            only in denial over the fact they themselves have been exploited.
            And while one is getting all hot and defensive and ranting on about how to
            acquire SAG cards and the like, just remember that one might be indirectly
            insulting someone else on this list....

            Again -- here's **looking out for you**, kid...
            Cheers!
            Benton
          • Bateman, Andrew
            Benton wrote: This discussion is about reenactors getting cheated and exploited. There are a couple of us who have taken the time and effort to try and help
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 9, 1999
            • 0 Attachment
              Benton wrote:

              This discussion is about reenactors getting cheated and
              exploited.
              There are a couple of us who have taken the time and effort
              to try and help
              our fellow "hobbyists" with information on the industry, how
              it works and
              what fair pay should be.

              Andrew writes:

              I, for one, appreciate the heads up. I admit I didn't know
              much about the movie business when "Gettysburg" was filmed but I had fun
              making the film and could not have been paid anyway since I did not have a
              work visa for the purpose. Your math about the $3 million for 4000 extras
              for 5 days and how such a sum fits into the grand scheme of making a film
              was enlightening, and perhaps if more reenactors realized this they would be
              less inclined to show up for free. It will be interesting to see how the
              reenacting community reacts when TNT starts filming Jeff Shaara's "Gods and
              Generals", as I have heard they are going to do in the near future.

              KYPD,

              Pte. Bateman, 41st ROF
              (also immortalized on celluloid as a member of Garnett's
              Brigade, Pickett's Division; the 20th Maine @ Little Round Top; Buford's
              Federal Cavalry @ the Seminary; Hancock's Corps at Cemetery Ridge; the Irish
              Brigade; etc.)
            • NINETY3RD@xxx.xxx
              ... Let me just make fun of myself before anyone else does. Yes, I typed hobbits . Maybe I was thinking of the feature live action film they are planning on
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 9, 1999
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 09/4/1999 8:48:35 AM, NINETY3RD@... writes:

                >So? ANY hobbits (


                Let me just make fun of myself before anyone else does.
                Yes, I typed "hobbits".
                Maybe I was thinking of the feature live action film they are planning on
                "Lord Of The Rings"...
                It should have read "hobbies" of course....

                hee hee
                B
              • mmathews@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                ... Really? I LOVED that series as a kid. Must have reread it a dozen times over the years. Enduring quality fantasy. Hugggsssesss and kissssesss,
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 9, 1999
                • 0 Attachment
                  >From: NINETY3RD@...
                  >
                  >
                  >In a message dated 09/4/1999 8:48:35 AM, NINETY3RD@... writes:
                  >
                  >>So? ANY hobbits (
                  >
                  >
                  >Let me just make fun of myself before anyone else does.
                  >Yes, I typed "hobbits".
                  >Maybe I was thinking of the feature live action film they are planning on
                  >"Lord Of The Rings"...
                  >It should have read "hobbies" of course....

                  Really? I LOVED that series as a kid. Must have reread it a dozen times
                  over the years. Enduring quality fantasy.

                  Hugggsssesss and kissssesss,
                  Bagginssssss

                  Michael Mathews -- Winona State University
                  Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax: (507) 280-5568
                  ------------------------------
                  "Wit is educated insolence." -- Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.