Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Not Enough Other Ranks/Too Many Officers

Expand Messages
  • BritcomHMP@aol.com
    In a message dated 12/2/2000 10:14:16 AM Central Standard Time, fullerfamily@sprintmail.com writes:
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
      In a message dated 12/2/2000 10:14:16 AM Central Standard Time,
      fullerfamily@... writes:

      << My only concern is seeing units that have a
      private or corporal, sergeant, and officer- and that comprises the
      total membership. Or, two privates and an officer. It looks even more
      inauthentic to the trained eye than having a sergeant issue commands
      to a line company. The hobby needs more rank and file. >>

      No gainsaying that Roger!

      However, in my opinion, the way to get over this is to 'Brigade' small units
      together so that an officer can command them. Hopefully each unit will have a
      'trainee' officer with the correct kit and the job can be rotated.
      Why? Because as you (and many others) know one of my particular dislikes is
      people giving commands AND firing a weapon. It is impossible for a re-enactor
      to do both with safety and efficiency.

      It is also very difficult for a unit to be sent orders in action if there is
      not an obvious officer standing there for the runner to report to.

      <<Better to start off, at least in re-creation, as a private, work
      one's way up, learn it all step-by-step, that to have somebody just
      don an officer's kit and say "Voila- I am an officer". Unless said
      individual wer actually competent as an officer (who must know many
      things and have people move about in a way that is both safe, as well
      as authentic) then said person should go pick up a musket or a drum
      and go back in ranks, and learn the basics. >>

      Absolutely, of course if a unit is big enough it can accept an ensign whom
      the other officers or NCOs will train but there is a lot to be said for
      learning the basic drill, and if possible doing the training for other arms
      too (speaking for myself learning to serve a gun gave me a healthy respect
      for the beasties)!

      <<Or, go stand with the crowd and be a peacock.>>

      In living history I think that there is certainly a place for an 'officer'
      who can put over the social and class side of being an officer without
      actually commanding on the field. We have a couple of chaps who do this for
      the lantern tour at New Orleans who are quite splendid but would never think
      of field command.

      << IMO the best officers in the hobby that I
      have gotten to know are those who will carry two kits with them: an
      officer's and a private's, and will dress and function accordingly to
      what the unit's needs are on a given day at a given event.>>

      Hmmm in my opinion debatable. Very usefull to be sure but it can be a bit
      dificult to get into the period 'mindset' if you are changing about. Having
      said that there are certainly some very skillful people who can do this.

      <<In the particular area I am involved in, though, a rifle unit such as
      the 95th, KGL Lights or 5/60, etc., there was a larger number of NCOs
      per unit than in line units, due to the more independent nature of
      the sharpshooters, who were expected to operate in small, independent
      units as a matter of policy, not just in emergencies only. >>

      Very true but the rifles are a special case, very different to line, or even
      guards, regiments.

      << BTW I haven't seen any examples of line officers being asked to
      temporarily take over rifle units at a regimental or company level,
      nor vice versa. (This would mean still being gazetted as an officer
      in the line unit, while commanding the rifle unit for at least a day
      or so.) If there are examples of this, I haven't seen any yet in the
      official histories or journals I have read.
      >>

      No, I haven't either. Very different troops so that with most of the rules
      one could tag on to the end "except for the rifles".

      The other thing is that certain people do fit certain roles. There are people
      who look and behave like the perfect private or NCO of the period but would
      look like a fish out of water as an officer. There are also people who make
      great officers who would look and behave completely out of place in the line,
      horses for courses. That's one reason why I like to remind re-enactment
      officers that our ranks mean nothing away from an event. For a Brit if you
      haven't got a piece of paper signed by the lady who lives at the end of the
      Mall, your playing at it. And that includes me!

      Cheers

      Tim
    • John-Paul Johnson
      ... On the other hand, some actually do have that piece of paper that starts ... Canada and Her other Realms and Territories, Queen... and just play at being
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
        BritcomHMP@... wrote:

        >For a Brit if you
        > haven't got a piece of paper signed by the lady who lives at the end of the
        > Mall, your playing at it. And that includes me!
        > Cheers
        > Tim
        >

        On the other hand, some actually do have that piece of paper that starts
        :"Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
        Canada and Her other Realms and Territories, Queen..." and just play at
        being privates...and THAT includes me! <laugh>

        J-P Johnson
        Royal Nfld Reg't
        --------------
        J-P's Homepage: http://members.home.net/jpjohnsn/

        Battle of Georgian Bay Website:
        http://www.battleofgeorgianbay.huronia.com/

        102 Squadron Website: http://www.bconnex.net/~co7351/102sqn.html
      • james barnwell
        ... members,regardless of rank ,How would the list suggest that a better presentation to the general public be made? Eliminate a Officer,or just go with an
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
          > I regards to units that only have a few
          members,regardless of "rank",How would the list
          suggest that a better presentation to the general
          public be made?
          Eliminate a Officer,or just go with an NCO? Yes
          it would be nice to get more people involved in our
          hobby,at least to fill ranks.
          Drilling takes a lot of practice.Perhaps
          knowledge of the drills,could be a requirement for
          advancement? Firearm safety,as well.
          Someone said something about Officers having two
          uniforms.What about having British/U.S. coatees and
          Shako plates, and or Militia rifle frocks,so
          perhaps,Our opposing lines could be better filled in
          at larger events?
          perhaps the extra uniforms could be loaned to
          anyone who wanted to "try" their hand at an
          event.Being drilled like a new recruit?
          >
          Regards
          James Barnwell

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
          http://shopping.yahoo.com/
        • easeufe@aol.com
          In a message dated 12/2/00 9:19:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... forgive ... Tim et al, My remarks to Roger s email were simply to say that the Royal Marines
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 3, 2000
            In a message dated 12/2/00 9:19:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
            BritcomHMP@... writes:
            > Because Nap/1812 need lots more of them, the only real rank worth
            > having in this hobby is private- or Rifleman.
            > ..........or Marine!

            > ONLY officers originated and gave orders on the field during our period.
            > Whiteness the 93rd at New Orleans standing 'like a brick wall' because the
            > officer in command had been shot, until an officer of a senior enough rank
            > came to order them to move. I am as opposed to people just dressing up as
            > officers as anyone (perhaps more than most) but the idea that officers are
            > not nesasary in what is supposed to be an historical re-creation is,
            forgive
            > me, laughable. If anyone sincerely believes that, they know very little
            > about the period.
            >
            Tim et al,

            My remarks to Roger's email were simply to say that the Royal Marines were
            also here during the war. Nothing more.

            But to get on the bandwagon, one of the banes of re-enacting is that there
            will
            always be units that come into the hobby with the officer, NCO then private
            mentality. These groups come into being usually structured from the top down
            versus bottom up and do nothing for the hobby but create awkward moments and
            festering unfulfilled egos. In Maryland, we have a Lt-Col of Royal Horse
            Artillery
            (No Gun and No Horse) and a Captain of the 95th, neither of which I or my men
            will follow or take orders from. (In fact, when the local 95th attends an
            event, the officer takes commands from me.)

            Competent and learned officers are indeed important and necessary to the
            hobby and to the general overall impression that we give to the public. We
            recognize this and its one of the underlying reasons that we do not go to the
            Ft McHenry event.
            The British line should not be commanded by a Corporal or a Boatswain's Mate
            as
            it was two years ago; it is an incorrect impression and translates a falsity
            to the
            public. Fortunately, this does not affect most other events in the area
            which are more fluid and akin to raids than stand-up battles and having NCOs
            in charge
            works well.

            On our yearly trip to Canada, we usually find ourselves brigaded with other
            units under an officer and have never had a problem (Larry, Craig?). In
            fact,
            we appreciate this and always use it as a learning experience.

            Ed Seufert, LCpl
            1812 Royal Marines
          • mike dollinger
            ... _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 4, 2000
              >From: james barnwell <barnlll@...>
              >Reply-To: WarOf1812@egroups.com
              >To: WarOf1812@egroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Chalmette/Sir Harry/Other Ranks/Bloody
              >Officers#@%!!
              >Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:02:14 -0800 (PST)
              >
              >
              > > I regards to units that only have a few
              >members,regardless of "rank",How would the list
              >suggest that a better presentation to the general
              >public be made?
              > Eliminate a Officer,or just go with an NCO? Yes
              >it would be nice to get more people involved in our
              >hobby,at least to fill ranks.
              > Drilling takes a lot of practice.Perhaps
              >knowledge of the drills,could be a requirement for
              >advancement? Firearm safety,as well.
              > Someone said something about Officers having two
              >uniforms.What about having British/U.S. coatees and
              >Shako plates, and or Militia rifle frocks,so
              >perhaps,Our opposing lines could be better filled in
              >at larger events?
              > perhaps the extra uniforms could be loaned to
              >anyone who wanted to "try" their hand at an
              >event.Being drilled like a new recruit?
              > >
              > Regards
              > James Barnwell
              >THE NWTA REV WAR GROUP HAS A SYSTEM FOR PEAPLE WHO ARE JUST GETTING STARTED
              >IN THE HOBBY. THERE IS A SUPPLY OF TENTS AND CLOTHINING THAT IS LENT OUT
              >WITHOUT CHARGE SO PEAPLE CAN CAMP WITH DIFFERENT UNITS TO LEARN ABOUT THOSE
              >UNITS AND CHOOSE THE UNIT THAT FITS THERE INTEREST AND NEEDS.THIS WAY
              >WITHOUT SPENDING A BUNCH THEY CAN TEST THE WATERS FIND A UNIT LEARN A LOT
              >AND NOT BECOME A SAFETY HAZARD OR NUISENCE.
              >__________________________________________________
              >Do You Yahoo!?
              >Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
              >http://shopping.yahoo.com/

              _____________________________________________________________________________________
              Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
            • BritcomHMP@aol.com
              In a message dated 12/3/2000 11:49:57 PM Central Standard Time, easeufe@aol.com writes:
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 4, 2000
                In a message dated 12/3/2000 11:49:57 PM Central Standard Time,
                easeufe@... writes:

                << In Maryland, we have a Lt-Col of Royal Horse
                Artillery
                (No Gun and No Horse) and a Captain of the 95th, neither of which I or my
                men
                will follow or take orders from. (In fact, when the local 95th attends an
                event, the officer takes commands from me.) >>

                This may be the origin of some confusion Ed. I personaly am fully aware of
                these individuals but I have never considered them anything but
                clotheshorses. Certainly not re-enactment officers. They hold no position in
                any group that I am aware of so I don't see that they count at all. They
                could be dressed as Capt. Kirk & Mr. Spock for all I care they are never
                going to give any order on a field that I am charge of.

                Cheers

                Tim
              • Kevin Windsor
                This is an interesting statement Tim and I am not going to challenge your validity to lead because I would have to be daft!! However what does a person do if
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 5, 2000
                  This is an interesting statement Tim and I am not going to challenge
                  your validity to lead because I would have to be daft!! However what
                  does a person do if he wishes
                  to portray an officer? There is such an "in group" of those the
                  re-enactment community feels are officers and everyone else is just
                  playing. Is there any way a new
                  officer can get "respect"? I know it would happen differently with the
                  NABB, but not everyone subscribes to their tenants.

                  Fire away ladies and gents

                  BritcomHMP@... wrote:

                  > Certainly not re-enactment officers. They hold no position in
                  > any group that I am aware of so I don't see that they count at all. They
                  > could be dressed as Capt. Kirk & Mr. Spock for all I care they are never
                  > going to give any order on a field that I am charge of.
                • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/5/2000 9:15:17 PM Central Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes:
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 6, 2000
                    In a message dated 12/5/2000 9:15:17 PM Central Standard Time,
                    kevin.windsor@... writes:

                    << This is an interesting statement Tim (about people who just put on
                    uniforms not realy being re-enactment officers) and I am not going to
                    challenge
                    your validity to lead because I would have to be daft!! However what
                    does a person do if he wishes
                    to portray an officer?>>

                    The usual method is indeed by joining a re-created regiment and working your
                    way through it. However in the UK we found that with a large unified body, as
                    the NA became 18 or so years ago, it was necessary to have people who devoted
                    their time to staff work both on an off the field. The big difference over
                    there is that re-enactment is Society run NOT site run. A site engages a
                    group to put on a display for them but has NO say in who commands, it is up
                    to the society to provide the best commanders. There were some people who
                    only wanted to command their unit and there were others who wanted to
                    exercise higher command, though the legal responsibility that came with it in
                    more recent years put a few off the idea.

                    Basically there agreed accreditation rules and if you are approved by the
                    societies accreditation board you can exercise field command as an officer.
                    (Part of the accreditation test for field and staff officer includes basic
                    horsemanship)

                    << There is such an "in group" of those the
                    re-enactment community feels are officers and everyone else is just
                    playing. Is there any way a new
                    officer can get "respect"? I know it would happen differently with the
                    NABB, but not everyone subscribes to their tenants.
                    >>

                    That's fine, the one idea is to have an event as safe and as much fun as
                    possible there are certainly people who are not in the NABB who are competent
                    officers and NCOs, but if I have to command on the field, I always feel a lot
                    happier if I have the likes of Steve Hartwick, Peter Twist and Benton
                    Jennings with me, not to mention John Gilmour.

                    John is a great example of a chap who came along as an officer and has shown
                    himself worthy of 'respect' on the field. He never pushes himself forward but
                    is always ready to serve in any capacity on the field and carry out orders
                    efficiently. In this way he has justified his position as an officer to all
                    in the hobby.

                    In the end of course you are right, the individual must be accepted by the
                    re-enactment community in order to function as an officer, and right again if
                    you are implying (as you seem to be) that without any formal set up it can be
                    a bit difficult for a newcomer to tell who these people are. The only thing I
                    can say is you know 'em when you see 'em.

                    Cheers

                    Tim
                  • JGIL1812@aol.com
                    In a message dated 12/5/00 7:15:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes:
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 6, 2000
                      In a message dated 12/5/00 7:15:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                      kevin.windsor@... writes:

                      << There is such an "in group" of those the
                      re-enactment community feels are officers and everyone else is just
                      playing. >>

                      Kevin,

                      I hope I am not misreading what you are saying here? There is a "in group"
                      both at the officer level and below. It is not just a question of how an
                      officer would be received by the OR's but also how a new recruit is perceived
                      by other groups. I have read may times on the list how seasoned re-enactors
                      have had an issue standing in line with "newbies." Especially, from another
                      group and the conversation always revolves around drill.

                      Bottom line ... we all know who can and who can't. I know many seasoned
                      re-enactors that chock on the thought of giving an order. To make the hobby
                      grow we need to encourage participation in whatever means we can: ordinary
                      ranker, ensign or God forbid another Colour Sergeant.
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.