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Re: [WarOf1812] Chalmette/Sir Harry/Other Ranks/Bloody Officers#@%!!

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  • BritcomHMP@aol.com
    In a message dated 12/1/2000 6:04:30 PM Central Standard Time, easeufe@aol.com writes: ... having ... I know that Roger s initial comment was satirical
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
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      In a message dated 12/1/2000 6:04:30 PM Central Standard Time,
      easeufe@... writes:

      << >
      > B) Because Nap/1812 need lots more of them, the only real rank worth
      having
      > in this hobby is private- or Rifleman.
      > IMHO! :^)
      >
      >
      ..........or Marine!
      >>

      I know that Roger's initial comment was satirical but with Ed's addition and
      the fact that I have met many people who think that officers are not needed I
      trust that all who hold that view realise that every time an NCO issues an
      order on the field he is being inaccurate.

      ONLY officers originated and gave orders on the field during our period.
      Whiteness the 93rd at New Orleans standing 'like a brick wall' because the
      officer in command had been shot, until an officer of a senior enough rank
      came to order them to move. I am as opposed to people just dressing up as
      officers as anyone (perhaps more than most) but the idea that officers are
      not nesasary in what is supposed to be an historical re-creation is, forgive
      me, laughable. If anyone sincerely believes that, they know very little about
      the period.

      Cheers

      Tim
    • fullerfamily@sprintmail.com
      I am as opposed to people just dressing up as ... officers are ... is, forgive ... little about ... Indeed, Tim, you are absolutely correct, both in terms of
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
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        I am as opposed to people just dressing up as
        > officers as anyone (perhaps more than most) but the idea that
        officers are
        > not nesasary in what is supposed to be an historical re-creation
        is, forgive
        > me, laughable. If anyone sincerely believes that, they know very
        little about
        > the period.
        >
        > Cheers
        >
        > Tim

        Indeed, Tim, you are absolutely correct, both in terms of adhering to
        the Articles of War as well as to properly showing to the public what
        was actually done. My only concern is seeing units that have a
        private or corporal, sergeant, and officer- and that comprises the
        total membership. Or, two privates and an officer. It looks even more
        inauthentic to the trained eye than having a sergeant issue commands
        to a line company. The hobby needs more rank and file.

        Better to start off, at least in re-creation, as a private, work
        one's way up, learn it all step-by-step, that to have somebody just
        don an officer's kit and say "Voila- I am an officer". Unless said
        individual wer actually competent as an officer (who must know many
        things and have people move about in a way that is both safe, as well
        as authentic) then said person should go pick up a musket or a drum
        and go back in ranks, and learn the basics. Or, go stand with the
        crowd and be a peacock. IMO the best officers in the hobby that I
        have gotten to know are those who will carry two kits with them: an
        officer's and a private's, and will dress and function acordingly to
        what the unit's needs are on a given day at a given event.

        In the particular area I am involved in, though, a rifle unit such as
        the 95th, KGL Lights or 5/60, etc., there was a larger number of NCOs
        per unit than in line units, due to the more independent nature of
        the sharpshooters, who were expected to operate in small, independent
        units as a matter of policy, not just in emergencies only. Hence, an
        NCO in charge of a larger than usual group of riflemen would also not
        be unusual, even if the analogous group in a line unit would have
        been issued orders by an officer only. Should officers in a line
        unit have become injured or lost, the unit would have had to seek
        another officer, or retire- at least officially. the next step would
        have been to turn the remaining block of men into a Provisional
        Battalion.

        The rifle regiments were expected to bump up whatever subordinate
        NCO was available to a temporary command position of at least half-
        companies or larger, at least until a competent (meaning:
        appropriate) officer could be found. In the case of the 5/60, by the
        end of the campaign in France in 1814, there was one company at
        Bayonne who had been commanded for several weeks by a sergeant,
        simply because there were no more officers available due to battle
        casualties and disease.

        BTW I haven't seen any examples of line officers being asked to
        temporarily take over rifle units at a regimental or company level,
        nor vice versa. (This would mean still being gazetted as an officer
        in the line unit, while commanding the rifle unit for at least a day
        or so.) If there are examples of this, I haven't seen any yet in the
        official histories or journals I have read.

        Roger
        3/95th (Rifles)
      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
        In a message dated 12/2/2000 10:14:16 AM Central Standard Time, fullerfamily@sprintmail.com writes:
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
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          In a message dated 12/2/2000 10:14:16 AM Central Standard Time,
          fullerfamily@... writes:

          << My only concern is seeing units that have a
          private or corporal, sergeant, and officer- and that comprises the
          total membership. Or, two privates and an officer. It looks even more
          inauthentic to the trained eye than having a sergeant issue commands
          to a line company. The hobby needs more rank and file. >>

          No gainsaying that Roger!

          However, in my opinion, the way to get over this is to 'Brigade' small units
          together so that an officer can command them. Hopefully each unit will have a
          'trainee' officer with the correct kit and the job can be rotated.
          Why? Because as you (and many others) know one of my particular dislikes is
          people giving commands AND firing a weapon. It is impossible for a re-enactor
          to do both with safety and efficiency.

          It is also very difficult for a unit to be sent orders in action if there is
          not an obvious officer standing there for the runner to report to.

          <<Better to start off, at least in re-creation, as a private, work
          one's way up, learn it all step-by-step, that to have somebody just
          don an officer's kit and say "Voila- I am an officer". Unless said
          individual wer actually competent as an officer (who must know many
          things and have people move about in a way that is both safe, as well
          as authentic) then said person should go pick up a musket or a drum
          and go back in ranks, and learn the basics. >>

          Absolutely, of course if a unit is big enough it can accept an ensign whom
          the other officers or NCOs will train but there is a lot to be said for
          learning the basic drill, and if possible doing the training for other arms
          too (speaking for myself learning to serve a gun gave me a healthy respect
          for the beasties)!

          <<Or, go stand with the crowd and be a peacock.>>

          In living history I think that there is certainly a place for an 'officer'
          who can put over the social and class side of being an officer without
          actually commanding on the field. We have a couple of chaps who do this for
          the lantern tour at New Orleans who are quite splendid but would never think
          of field command.

          << IMO the best officers in the hobby that I
          have gotten to know are those who will carry two kits with them: an
          officer's and a private's, and will dress and function accordingly to
          what the unit's needs are on a given day at a given event.>>

          Hmmm in my opinion debatable. Very usefull to be sure but it can be a bit
          dificult to get into the period 'mindset' if you are changing about. Having
          said that there are certainly some very skillful people who can do this.

          <<In the particular area I am involved in, though, a rifle unit such as
          the 95th, KGL Lights or 5/60, etc., there was a larger number of NCOs
          per unit than in line units, due to the more independent nature of
          the sharpshooters, who were expected to operate in small, independent
          units as a matter of policy, not just in emergencies only. >>

          Very true but the rifles are a special case, very different to line, or even
          guards, regiments.

          << BTW I haven't seen any examples of line officers being asked to
          temporarily take over rifle units at a regimental or company level,
          nor vice versa. (This would mean still being gazetted as an officer
          in the line unit, while commanding the rifle unit for at least a day
          or so.) If there are examples of this, I haven't seen any yet in the
          official histories or journals I have read.
          >>

          No, I haven't either. Very different troops so that with most of the rules
          one could tag on to the end "except for the rifles".

          The other thing is that certain people do fit certain roles. There are people
          who look and behave like the perfect private or NCO of the period but would
          look like a fish out of water as an officer. There are also people who make
          great officers who would look and behave completely out of place in the line,
          horses for courses. That's one reason why I like to remind re-enactment
          officers that our ranks mean nothing away from an event. For a Brit if you
          haven't got a piece of paper signed by the lady who lives at the end of the
          Mall, your playing at it. And that includes me!

          Cheers

          Tim
        • John-Paul Johnson
          ... On the other hand, some actually do have that piece of paper that starts ... Canada and Her other Realms and Territories, Queen... and just play at being
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
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            BritcomHMP@... wrote:

            >For a Brit if you
            > haven't got a piece of paper signed by the lady who lives at the end of the
            > Mall, your playing at it. And that includes me!
            > Cheers
            > Tim
            >

            On the other hand, some actually do have that piece of paper that starts
            :"Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
            Canada and Her other Realms and Territories, Queen..." and just play at
            being privates...and THAT includes me! <laugh>

            J-P Johnson
            Royal Nfld Reg't
            --------------
            J-P's Homepage: http://members.home.net/jpjohnsn/

            Battle of Georgian Bay Website:
            http://www.battleofgeorgianbay.huronia.com/

            102 Squadron Website: http://www.bconnex.net/~co7351/102sqn.html
          • james barnwell
            ... members,regardless of rank ,How would the list suggest that a better presentation to the general public be made? Eliminate a Officer,or just go with an
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
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              > I regards to units that only have a few
              members,regardless of "rank",How would the list
              suggest that a better presentation to the general
              public be made?
              Eliminate a Officer,or just go with an NCO? Yes
              it would be nice to get more people involved in our
              hobby,at least to fill ranks.
              Drilling takes a lot of practice.Perhaps
              knowledge of the drills,could be a requirement for
              advancement? Firearm safety,as well.
              Someone said something about Officers having two
              uniforms.What about having British/U.S. coatees and
              Shako plates, and or Militia rifle frocks,so
              perhaps,Our opposing lines could be better filled in
              at larger events?
              perhaps the extra uniforms could be loaned to
              anyone who wanted to "try" their hand at an
              event.Being drilled like a new recruit?
              >
              Regards
              James Barnwell

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            • easeufe@aol.com
              In a message dated 12/2/00 9:19:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... forgive ... Tim et al, My remarks to Roger s email were simply to say that the Royal Marines
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 3, 2000
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                In a message dated 12/2/00 9:19:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                BritcomHMP@... writes:
                > Because Nap/1812 need lots more of them, the only real rank worth
                > having in this hobby is private- or Rifleman.
                > ..........or Marine!

                > ONLY officers originated and gave orders on the field during our period.
                > Whiteness the 93rd at New Orleans standing 'like a brick wall' because the
                > officer in command had been shot, until an officer of a senior enough rank
                > came to order them to move. I am as opposed to people just dressing up as
                > officers as anyone (perhaps more than most) but the idea that officers are
                > not nesasary in what is supposed to be an historical re-creation is,
                forgive
                > me, laughable. If anyone sincerely believes that, they know very little
                > about the period.
                >
                Tim et al,

                My remarks to Roger's email were simply to say that the Royal Marines were
                also here during the war. Nothing more.

                But to get on the bandwagon, one of the banes of re-enacting is that there
                will
                always be units that come into the hobby with the officer, NCO then private
                mentality. These groups come into being usually structured from the top down
                versus bottom up and do nothing for the hobby but create awkward moments and
                festering unfulfilled egos. In Maryland, we have a Lt-Col of Royal Horse
                Artillery
                (No Gun and No Horse) and a Captain of the 95th, neither of which I or my men
                will follow or take orders from. (In fact, when the local 95th attends an
                event, the officer takes commands from me.)

                Competent and learned officers are indeed important and necessary to the
                hobby and to the general overall impression that we give to the public. We
                recognize this and its one of the underlying reasons that we do not go to the
                Ft McHenry event.
                The British line should not be commanded by a Corporal or a Boatswain's Mate
                as
                it was two years ago; it is an incorrect impression and translates a falsity
                to the
                public. Fortunately, this does not affect most other events in the area
                which are more fluid and akin to raids than stand-up battles and having NCOs
                in charge
                works well.

                On our yearly trip to Canada, we usually find ourselves brigaded with other
                units under an officer and have never had a problem (Larry, Craig?). In
                fact,
                we appreciate this and always use it as a learning experience.

                Ed Seufert, LCpl
                1812 Royal Marines
              • mike dollinger
                ... _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 4, 2000
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                  >From: james barnwell <barnlll@...>
                  >Reply-To: WarOf1812@egroups.com
                  >To: WarOf1812@egroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Chalmette/Sir Harry/Other Ranks/Bloody
                  >Officers#@%!!
                  >Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:02:14 -0800 (PST)
                  >
                  >
                  > > I regards to units that only have a few
                  >members,regardless of "rank",How would the list
                  >suggest that a better presentation to the general
                  >public be made?
                  > Eliminate a Officer,or just go with an NCO? Yes
                  >it would be nice to get more people involved in our
                  >hobby,at least to fill ranks.
                  > Drilling takes a lot of practice.Perhaps
                  >knowledge of the drills,could be a requirement for
                  >advancement? Firearm safety,as well.
                  > Someone said something about Officers having two
                  >uniforms.What about having British/U.S. coatees and
                  >Shako plates, and or Militia rifle frocks,so
                  >perhaps,Our opposing lines could be better filled in
                  >at larger events?
                  > perhaps the extra uniforms could be loaned to
                  >anyone who wanted to "try" their hand at an
                  >event.Being drilled like a new recruit?
                  > >
                  > Regards
                  > James Barnwell
                  >THE NWTA REV WAR GROUP HAS A SYSTEM FOR PEAPLE WHO ARE JUST GETTING STARTED
                  >IN THE HOBBY. THERE IS A SUPPLY OF TENTS AND CLOTHINING THAT IS LENT OUT
                  >WITHOUT CHARGE SO PEAPLE CAN CAMP WITH DIFFERENT UNITS TO LEARN ABOUT THOSE
                  >UNITS AND CHOOSE THE UNIT THAT FITS THERE INTEREST AND NEEDS.THIS WAY
                  >WITHOUT SPENDING A BUNCH THEY CAN TEST THE WATERS FIND A UNIT LEARN A LOT
                  >AND NOT BECOME A SAFETY HAZARD OR NUISENCE.
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                  >Do You Yahoo!?
                  >Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
                  >http://shopping.yahoo.com/

                  _____________________________________________________________________________________
                  Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
                • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/3/2000 11:49:57 PM Central Standard Time, easeufe@aol.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 4, 2000
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                    In a message dated 12/3/2000 11:49:57 PM Central Standard Time,
                    easeufe@... writes:

                    << In Maryland, we have a Lt-Col of Royal Horse
                    Artillery
                    (No Gun and No Horse) and a Captain of the 95th, neither of which I or my
                    men
                    will follow or take orders from. (In fact, when the local 95th attends an
                    event, the officer takes commands from me.) >>

                    This may be the origin of some confusion Ed. I personaly am fully aware of
                    these individuals but I have never considered them anything but
                    clotheshorses. Certainly not re-enactment officers. They hold no position in
                    any group that I am aware of so I don't see that they count at all. They
                    could be dressed as Capt. Kirk & Mr. Spock for all I care they are never
                    going to give any order on a field that I am charge of.

                    Cheers

                    Tim
                  • Kevin Windsor
                    This is an interesting statement Tim and I am not going to challenge your validity to lead because I would have to be daft!! However what does a person do if
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 5, 2000
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                      This is an interesting statement Tim and I am not going to challenge
                      your validity to lead because I would have to be daft!! However what
                      does a person do if he wishes
                      to portray an officer? There is such an "in group" of those the
                      re-enactment community feels are officers and everyone else is just
                      playing. Is there any way a new
                      officer can get "respect"? I know it would happen differently with the
                      NABB, but not everyone subscribes to their tenants.

                      Fire away ladies and gents

                      BritcomHMP@... wrote:

                      > Certainly not re-enactment officers. They hold no position in
                      > any group that I am aware of so I don't see that they count at all. They
                      > could be dressed as Capt. Kirk & Mr. Spock for all I care they are never
                      > going to give any order on a field that I am charge of.
                    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                      In a message dated 12/5/2000 9:15:17 PM Central Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes:
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 6, 2000
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                        In a message dated 12/5/2000 9:15:17 PM Central Standard Time,
                        kevin.windsor@... writes:

                        << This is an interesting statement Tim (about people who just put on
                        uniforms not realy being re-enactment officers) and I am not going to
                        challenge
                        your validity to lead because I would have to be daft!! However what
                        does a person do if he wishes
                        to portray an officer?>>

                        The usual method is indeed by joining a re-created regiment and working your
                        way through it. However in the UK we found that with a large unified body, as
                        the NA became 18 or so years ago, it was necessary to have people who devoted
                        their time to staff work both on an off the field. The big difference over
                        there is that re-enactment is Society run NOT site run. A site engages a
                        group to put on a display for them but has NO say in who commands, it is up
                        to the society to provide the best commanders. There were some people who
                        only wanted to command their unit and there were others who wanted to
                        exercise higher command, though the legal responsibility that came with it in
                        more recent years put a few off the idea.

                        Basically there agreed accreditation rules and if you are approved by the
                        societies accreditation board you can exercise field command as an officer.
                        (Part of the accreditation test for field and staff officer includes basic
                        horsemanship)

                        << There is such an "in group" of those the
                        re-enactment community feels are officers and everyone else is just
                        playing. Is there any way a new
                        officer can get "respect"? I know it would happen differently with the
                        NABB, but not everyone subscribes to their tenants.
                        >>

                        That's fine, the one idea is to have an event as safe and as much fun as
                        possible there are certainly people who are not in the NABB who are competent
                        officers and NCOs, but if I have to command on the field, I always feel a lot
                        happier if I have the likes of Steve Hartwick, Peter Twist and Benton
                        Jennings with me, not to mention John Gilmour.

                        John is a great example of a chap who came along as an officer and has shown
                        himself worthy of 'respect' on the field. He never pushes himself forward but
                        is always ready to serve in any capacity on the field and carry out orders
                        efficiently. In this way he has justified his position as an officer to all
                        in the hobby.

                        In the end of course you are right, the individual must be accepted by the
                        re-enactment community in order to function as an officer, and right again if
                        you are implying (as you seem to be) that without any formal set up it can be
                        a bit difficult for a newcomer to tell who these people are. The only thing I
                        can say is you know 'em when you see 'em.

                        Cheers

                        Tim
                      • JGIL1812@aol.com
                        In a message dated 12/5/00 7:15:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes:
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 6, 2000
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                          In a message dated 12/5/00 7:15:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                          kevin.windsor@... writes:

                          << There is such an "in group" of those the
                          re-enactment community feels are officers and everyone else is just
                          playing. >>

                          Kevin,

                          I hope I am not misreading what you are saying here? There is a "in group"
                          both at the officer level and below. It is not just a question of how an
                          officer would be received by the OR's but also how a new recruit is perceived
                          by other groups. I have read may times on the list how seasoned re-enactors
                          have had an issue standing in line with "newbies." Especially, from another
                          group and the conversation always revolves around drill.

                          Bottom line ... we all know who can and who can't. I know many seasoned
                          re-enactors that chock on the thought of giving an order. To make the hobby
                          grow we need to encourage participation in whatever means we can: ordinary
                          ranker, ensign or God forbid another Colour Sergeant.
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