Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Chalmette/Sir Harry/Other Ranks/Bloody Officers#@%!!

Expand Messages
  • Roger Fuller
    From: ... All we need now is an opinionated rifles offices constantly butting in and telling everyone how it should be done. I don t know id
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 1, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      From: <BritcomHMP@a...>
      > Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 7:05am
      > Subject: Re: Chalmette participants, 2001

      All we need now is an opinionated rifles
      offices constantly butting in and
      telling everyone how it should be done. I
      don't know id Harry Smith actually
      did that but his memoirs certainly make it
      sound that way!

      A) If Sir Harry had been listened to, even if the battle had not been won,
      there would have been ultimately fewer casualties. Certainly, his advice to
      push on further during the costly repulse of the American night attack in
      Dec. 1814, that so jarred the British officers' nerves, should have been
      taken- that might have decided the campaign right then and there, as Jackson
      did not have enough reserves yet, and the populace of New Orleans expected
      the British to march in at any moment and take the city. As a later French
      officer said, "a l'outrance, toujours l'outrance!"

      B) Because Nap/1812 need lots more of them, the only real rank worth having
      in this hobby is private- or Rifleman.
      IMHO! :^)

      C) ."...opinionated rifles offices constantly butting in and telling
      everyone how it should be done."

      Well, at events, I've seen such officers in green doing just that, but,
      erm... they weren't Rifles officers- although they had convinced themselves
      that they were. Well, maybe of a fictional variety...:^)


      Roger
      3/95th (Rifles)
    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
      In a message dated 12/1/2000 12:49:48 PM Central Standard Time, fullerfamily@sprintmail.com writes:
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 1, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 12/1/2000 12:49:48 PM Central Standard Time,
        fullerfamily@... writes:

        << Well, at events, I've seen such officers in green doing just that, but,
        erm... they weren't Rifles officers- although they had convinced themselves
        that they were. Well, maybe of a fictional variety...

        LOL best comment I have heard for a long time Roger!

        Cheers

        Tim
      • easeufe@aol.com
        In a message dated 12/1/00 1:49:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... having ... ..........or Marine! Ed Seufert, LCpl 1812 Royal Marines
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 1, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          In a message dated 12/1/00 1:49:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          fullerfamily@... writes:

          >
          > B) Because Nap/1812 need lots more of them, the only real rank worth
          having
          > in this hobby is private- or Rifleman.
          > IMHO! :^)
          >
          >
          ..........or Marine!

          Ed Seufert, LCpl
          1812 Royal Marines
        • BritcomHMP@aol.com
          In a message dated 12/1/2000 6:04:30 PM Central Standard Time, easeufe@aol.com writes: ... having ... I know that Roger s initial comment was satirical
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            In a message dated 12/1/2000 6:04:30 PM Central Standard Time,
            easeufe@... writes:

            << >
            > B) Because Nap/1812 need lots more of them, the only real rank worth
            having
            > in this hobby is private- or Rifleman.
            > IMHO! :^)
            >
            >
            ..........or Marine!
            >>

            I know that Roger's initial comment was satirical but with Ed's addition and
            the fact that I have met many people who think that officers are not needed I
            trust that all who hold that view realise that every time an NCO issues an
            order on the field he is being inaccurate.

            ONLY officers originated and gave orders on the field during our period.
            Whiteness the 93rd at New Orleans standing 'like a brick wall' because the
            officer in command had been shot, until an officer of a senior enough rank
            came to order them to move. I am as opposed to people just dressing up as
            officers as anyone (perhaps more than most) but the idea that officers are
            not nesasary in what is supposed to be an historical re-creation is, forgive
            me, laughable. If anyone sincerely believes that, they know very little about
            the period.

            Cheers

            Tim
          • fullerfamily@sprintmail.com
            I am as opposed to people just dressing up as ... officers are ... is, forgive ... little about ... Indeed, Tim, you are absolutely correct, both in terms of
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              I am as opposed to people just dressing up as
              > officers as anyone (perhaps more than most) but the idea that
              officers are
              > not nesasary in what is supposed to be an historical re-creation
              is, forgive
              > me, laughable. If anyone sincerely believes that, they know very
              little about
              > the period.
              >
              > Cheers
              >
              > Tim

              Indeed, Tim, you are absolutely correct, both in terms of adhering to
              the Articles of War as well as to properly showing to the public what
              was actually done. My only concern is seeing units that have a
              private or corporal, sergeant, and officer- and that comprises the
              total membership. Or, two privates and an officer. It looks even more
              inauthentic to the trained eye than having a sergeant issue commands
              to a line company. The hobby needs more rank and file.

              Better to start off, at least in re-creation, as a private, work
              one's way up, learn it all step-by-step, that to have somebody just
              don an officer's kit and say "Voila- I am an officer". Unless said
              individual wer actually competent as an officer (who must know many
              things and have people move about in a way that is both safe, as well
              as authentic) then said person should go pick up a musket or a drum
              and go back in ranks, and learn the basics. Or, go stand with the
              crowd and be a peacock. IMO the best officers in the hobby that I
              have gotten to know are those who will carry two kits with them: an
              officer's and a private's, and will dress and function acordingly to
              what the unit's needs are on a given day at a given event.

              In the particular area I am involved in, though, a rifle unit such as
              the 95th, KGL Lights or 5/60, etc., there was a larger number of NCOs
              per unit than in line units, due to the more independent nature of
              the sharpshooters, who were expected to operate in small, independent
              units as a matter of policy, not just in emergencies only. Hence, an
              NCO in charge of a larger than usual group of riflemen would also not
              be unusual, even if the analogous group in a line unit would have
              been issued orders by an officer only. Should officers in a line
              unit have become injured or lost, the unit would have had to seek
              another officer, or retire- at least officially. the next step would
              have been to turn the remaining block of men into a Provisional
              Battalion.

              The rifle regiments were expected to bump up whatever subordinate
              NCO was available to a temporary command position of at least half-
              companies or larger, at least until a competent (meaning:
              appropriate) officer could be found. In the case of the 5/60, by the
              end of the campaign in France in 1814, there was one company at
              Bayonne who had been commanded for several weeks by a sergeant,
              simply because there were no more officers available due to battle
              casualties and disease.

              BTW I haven't seen any examples of line officers being asked to
              temporarily take over rifle units at a regimental or company level,
              nor vice versa. (This would mean still being gazetted as an officer
              in the line unit, while commanding the rifle unit for at least a day
              or so.) If there are examples of this, I haven't seen any yet in the
              official histories or journals I have read.

              Roger
              3/95th (Rifles)
            • BritcomHMP@aol.com
              In a message dated 12/2/2000 10:14:16 AM Central Standard Time, fullerfamily@sprintmail.com writes:
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 12/2/2000 10:14:16 AM Central Standard Time,
                fullerfamily@... writes:

                << My only concern is seeing units that have a
                private or corporal, sergeant, and officer- and that comprises the
                total membership. Or, two privates and an officer. It looks even more
                inauthentic to the trained eye than having a sergeant issue commands
                to a line company. The hobby needs more rank and file. >>

                No gainsaying that Roger!

                However, in my opinion, the way to get over this is to 'Brigade' small units
                together so that an officer can command them. Hopefully each unit will have a
                'trainee' officer with the correct kit and the job can be rotated.
                Why? Because as you (and many others) know one of my particular dislikes is
                people giving commands AND firing a weapon. It is impossible for a re-enactor
                to do both with safety and efficiency.

                It is also very difficult for a unit to be sent orders in action if there is
                not an obvious officer standing there for the runner to report to.

                <<Better to start off, at least in re-creation, as a private, work
                one's way up, learn it all step-by-step, that to have somebody just
                don an officer's kit and say "Voila- I am an officer". Unless said
                individual wer actually competent as an officer (who must know many
                things and have people move about in a way that is both safe, as well
                as authentic) then said person should go pick up a musket or a drum
                and go back in ranks, and learn the basics. >>

                Absolutely, of course if a unit is big enough it can accept an ensign whom
                the other officers or NCOs will train but there is a lot to be said for
                learning the basic drill, and if possible doing the training for other arms
                too (speaking for myself learning to serve a gun gave me a healthy respect
                for the beasties)!

                <<Or, go stand with the crowd and be a peacock.>>

                In living history I think that there is certainly a place for an 'officer'
                who can put over the social and class side of being an officer without
                actually commanding on the field. We have a couple of chaps who do this for
                the lantern tour at New Orleans who are quite splendid but would never think
                of field command.

                << IMO the best officers in the hobby that I
                have gotten to know are those who will carry two kits with them: an
                officer's and a private's, and will dress and function accordingly to
                what the unit's needs are on a given day at a given event.>>

                Hmmm in my opinion debatable. Very usefull to be sure but it can be a bit
                dificult to get into the period 'mindset' if you are changing about. Having
                said that there are certainly some very skillful people who can do this.

                <<In the particular area I am involved in, though, a rifle unit such as
                the 95th, KGL Lights or 5/60, etc., there was a larger number of NCOs
                per unit than in line units, due to the more independent nature of
                the sharpshooters, who were expected to operate in small, independent
                units as a matter of policy, not just in emergencies only. >>

                Very true but the rifles are a special case, very different to line, or even
                guards, regiments.

                << BTW I haven't seen any examples of line officers being asked to
                temporarily take over rifle units at a regimental or company level,
                nor vice versa. (This would mean still being gazetted as an officer
                in the line unit, while commanding the rifle unit for at least a day
                or so.) If there are examples of this, I haven't seen any yet in the
                official histories or journals I have read.
                >>

                No, I haven't either. Very different troops so that with most of the rules
                one could tag on to the end "except for the rifles".

                The other thing is that certain people do fit certain roles. There are people
                who look and behave like the perfect private or NCO of the period but would
                look like a fish out of water as an officer. There are also people who make
                great officers who would look and behave completely out of place in the line,
                horses for courses. That's one reason why I like to remind re-enactment
                officers that our ranks mean nothing away from an event. For a Brit if you
                haven't got a piece of paper signed by the lady who lives at the end of the
                Mall, your playing at it. And that includes me!

                Cheers

                Tim
              • John-Paul Johnson
                ... On the other hand, some actually do have that piece of paper that starts ... Canada and Her other Realms and Territories, Queen... and just play at being
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  BritcomHMP@... wrote:

                  >For a Brit if you
                  > haven't got a piece of paper signed by the lady who lives at the end of the
                  > Mall, your playing at it. And that includes me!
                  > Cheers
                  > Tim
                  >

                  On the other hand, some actually do have that piece of paper that starts
                  :"Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
                  Canada and Her other Realms and Territories, Queen..." and just play at
                  being privates...and THAT includes me! <laugh>

                  J-P Johnson
                  Royal Nfld Reg't
                  --------------
                  J-P's Homepage: http://members.home.net/jpjohnsn/

                  Battle of Georgian Bay Website:
                  http://www.battleofgeorgianbay.huronia.com/

                  102 Squadron Website: http://www.bconnex.net/~co7351/102sqn.html
                • james barnwell
                  ... members,regardless of rank ,How would the list suggest that a better presentation to the general public be made? Eliminate a Officer,or just go with an
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > I regards to units that only have a few
                    members,regardless of "rank",How would the list
                    suggest that a better presentation to the general
                    public be made?
                    Eliminate a Officer,or just go with an NCO? Yes
                    it would be nice to get more people involved in our
                    hobby,at least to fill ranks.
                    Drilling takes a lot of practice.Perhaps
                    knowledge of the drills,could be a requirement for
                    advancement? Firearm safety,as well.
                    Someone said something about Officers having two
                    uniforms.What about having British/U.S. coatees and
                    Shako plates, and or Militia rifle frocks,so
                    perhaps,Our opposing lines could be better filled in
                    at larger events?
                    perhaps the extra uniforms could be loaned to
                    anyone who wanted to "try" their hand at an
                    event.Being drilled like a new recruit?
                    >
                    Regards
                    James Barnwell

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
                    http://shopping.yahoo.com/
                  • easeufe@aol.com
                    In a message dated 12/2/00 9:19:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... forgive ... Tim et al, My remarks to Roger s email were simply to say that the Royal Marines
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 3, 2000
                    • 0 Attachment
                      In a message dated 12/2/00 9:19:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                      BritcomHMP@... writes:
                      > Because Nap/1812 need lots more of them, the only real rank worth
                      > having in this hobby is private- or Rifleman.
                      > ..........or Marine!

                      > ONLY officers originated and gave orders on the field during our period.
                      > Whiteness the 93rd at New Orleans standing 'like a brick wall' because the
                      > officer in command had been shot, until an officer of a senior enough rank
                      > came to order them to move. I am as opposed to people just dressing up as
                      > officers as anyone (perhaps more than most) but the idea that officers are
                      > not nesasary in what is supposed to be an historical re-creation is,
                      forgive
                      > me, laughable. If anyone sincerely believes that, they know very little
                      > about the period.
                      >
                      Tim et al,

                      My remarks to Roger's email were simply to say that the Royal Marines were
                      also here during the war. Nothing more.

                      But to get on the bandwagon, one of the banes of re-enacting is that there
                      will
                      always be units that come into the hobby with the officer, NCO then private
                      mentality. These groups come into being usually structured from the top down
                      versus bottom up and do nothing for the hobby but create awkward moments and
                      festering unfulfilled egos. In Maryland, we have a Lt-Col of Royal Horse
                      Artillery
                      (No Gun and No Horse) and a Captain of the 95th, neither of which I or my men
                      will follow or take orders from. (In fact, when the local 95th attends an
                      event, the officer takes commands from me.)

                      Competent and learned officers are indeed important and necessary to the
                      hobby and to the general overall impression that we give to the public. We
                      recognize this and its one of the underlying reasons that we do not go to the
                      Ft McHenry event.
                      The British line should not be commanded by a Corporal or a Boatswain's Mate
                      as
                      it was two years ago; it is an incorrect impression and translates a falsity
                      to the
                      public. Fortunately, this does not affect most other events in the area
                      which are more fluid and akin to raids than stand-up battles and having NCOs
                      in charge
                      works well.

                      On our yearly trip to Canada, we usually find ourselves brigaded with other
                      units under an officer and have never had a problem (Larry, Craig?). In
                      fact,
                      we appreciate this and always use it as a learning experience.

                      Ed Seufert, LCpl
                      1812 Royal Marines
                    • mike dollinger
                      ... _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 4, 2000
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >From: james barnwell <barnlll@...>
                        >Reply-To: WarOf1812@egroups.com
                        >To: WarOf1812@egroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Chalmette/Sir Harry/Other Ranks/Bloody
                        >Officers#@%!!
                        >Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:02:14 -0800 (PST)
                        >
                        >
                        > > I regards to units that only have a few
                        >members,regardless of "rank",How would the list
                        >suggest that a better presentation to the general
                        >public be made?
                        > Eliminate a Officer,or just go with an NCO? Yes
                        >it would be nice to get more people involved in our
                        >hobby,at least to fill ranks.
                        > Drilling takes a lot of practice.Perhaps
                        >knowledge of the drills,could be a requirement for
                        >advancement? Firearm safety,as well.
                        > Someone said something about Officers having two
                        >uniforms.What about having British/U.S. coatees and
                        >Shako plates, and or Militia rifle frocks,so
                        >perhaps,Our opposing lines could be better filled in
                        >at larger events?
                        > perhaps the extra uniforms could be loaned to
                        >anyone who wanted to "try" their hand at an
                        >event.Being drilled like a new recruit?
                        > >
                        > Regards
                        > James Barnwell
                        >THE NWTA REV WAR GROUP HAS A SYSTEM FOR PEAPLE WHO ARE JUST GETTING STARTED
                        >IN THE HOBBY. THERE IS A SUPPLY OF TENTS AND CLOTHINING THAT IS LENT OUT
                        >WITHOUT CHARGE SO PEAPLE CAN CAMP WITH DIFFERENT UNITS TO LEARN ABOUT THOSE
                        >UNITS AND CHOOSE THE UNIT THAT FITS THERE INTEREST AND NEEDS.THIS WAY
                        >WITHOUT SPENDING A BUNCH THEY CAN TEST THE WATERS FIND A UNIT LEARN A LOT
                        >AND NOT BECOME A SAFETY HAZARD OR NUISENCE.
                        >__________________________________________________
                        >Do You Yahoo!?
                        >Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
                        >http://shopping.yahoo.com/

                        _____________________________________________________________________________________
                        Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
                      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                        In a message dated 12/3/2000 11:49:57 PM Central Standard Time, easeufe@aol.com writes:
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 4, 2000
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In a message dated 12/3/2000 11:49:57 PM Central Standard Time,
                          easeufe@... writes:

                          << In Maryland, we have a Lt-Col of Royal Horse
                          Artillery
                          (No Gun and No Horse) and a Captain of the 95th, neither of which I or my
                          men
                          will follow or take orders from. (In fact, when the local 95th attends an
                          event, the officer takes commands from me.) >>

                          This may be the origin of some confusion Ed. I personaly am fully aware of
                          these individuals but I have never considered them anything but
                          clotheshorses. Certainly not re-enactment officers. They hold no position in
                          any group that I am aware of so I don't see that they count at all. They
                          could be dressed as Capt. Kirk & Mr. Spock for all I care they are never
                          going to give any order on a field that I am charge of.

                          Cheers

                          Tim
                        • Kevin Windsor
                          This is an interesting statement Tim and I am not going to challenge your validity to lead because I would have to be daft!! However what does a person do if
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 5, 2000
                          • 0 Attachment
                            This is an interesting statement Tim and I am not going to challenge
                            your validity to lead because I would have to be daft!! However what
                            does a person do if he wishes
                            to portray an officer? There is such an "in group" of those the
                            re-enactment community feels are officers and everyone else is just
                            playing. Is there any way a new
                            officer can get "respect"? I know it would happen differently with the
                            NABB, but not everyone subscribes to their tenants.

                            Fire away ladies and gents

                            BritcomHMP@... wrote:

                            > Certainly not re-enactment officers. They hold no position in
                            > any group that I am aware of so I don't see that they count at all. They
                            > could be dressed as Capt. Kirk & Mr. Spock for all I care they are never
                            > going to give any order on a field that I am charge of.
                          • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                            In a message dated 12/5/2000 9:15:17 PM Central Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes:
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 6, 2000
                            • 0 Attachment
                              In a message dated 12/5/2000 9:15:17 PM Central Standard Time,
                              kevin.windsor@... writes:

                              << This is an interesting statement Tim (about people who just put on
                              uniforms not realy being re-enactment officers) and I am not going to
                              challenge
                              your validity to lead because I would have to be daft!! However what
                              does a person do if he wishes
                              to portray an officer?>>

                              The usual method is indeed by joining a re-created regiment and working your
                              way through it. However in the UK we found that with a large unified body, as
                              the NA became 18 or so years ago, it was necessary to have people who devoted
                              their time to staff work both on an off the field. The big difference over
                              there is that re-enactment is Society run NOT site run. A site engages a
                              group to put on a display for them but has NO say in who commands, it is up
                              to the society to provide the best commanders. There were some people who
                              only wanted to command their unit and there were others who wanted to
                              exercise higher command, though the legal responsibility that came with it in
                              more recent years put a few off the idea.

                              Basically there agreed accreditation rules and if you are approved by the
                              societies accreditation board you can exercise field command as an officer.
                              (Part of the accreditation test for field and staff officer includes basic
                              horsemanship)

                              << There is such an "in group" of those the
                              re-enactment community feels are officers and everyone else is just
                              playing. Is there any way a new
                              officer can get "respect"? I know it would happen differently with the
                              NABB, but not everyone subscribes to their tenants.
                              >>

                              That's fine, the one idea is to have an event as safe and as much fun as
                              possible there are certainly people who are not in the NABB who are competent
                              officers and NCOs, but if I have to command on the field, I always feel a lot
                              happier if I have the likes of Steve Hartwick, Peter Twist and Benton
                              Jennings with me, not to mention John Gilmour.

                              John is a great example of a chap who came along as an officer and has shown
                              himself worthy of 'respect' on the field. He never pushes himself forward but
                              is always ready to serve in any capacity on the field and carry out orders
                              efficiently. In this way he has justified his position as an officer to all
                              in the hobby.

                              In the end of course you are right, the individual must be accepted by the
                              re-enactment community in order to function as an officer, and right again if
                              you are implying (as you seem to be) that without any formal set up it can be
                              a bit difficult for a newcomer to tell who these people are. The only thing I
                              can say is you know 'em when you see 'em.

                              Cheers

                              Tim
                            • JGIL1812@aol.com
                              In a message dated 12/5/00 7:15:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes:
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 6, 2000
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In a message dated 12/5/00 7:15:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                kevin.windsor@... writes:

                                << There is such an "in group" of those the
                                re-enactment community feels are officers and everyone else is just
                                playing. >>

                                Kevin,

                                I hope I am not misreading what you are saying here? There is a "in group"
                                both at the officer level and below. It is not just a question of how an
                                officer would be received by the OR's but also how a new recruit is perceived
                                by other groups. I have read may times on the list how seasoned re-enactors
                                have had an issue standing in line with "newbies." Especially, from another
                                group and the conversation always revolves around drill.

                                Bottom line ... we all know who can and who can't. I know many seasoned
                                re-enactors that chock on the thought of giving an order. To make the hobby
                                grow we need to encourage participation in whatever means we can: ordinary
                                ranker, ensign or God forbid another Colour Sergeant.
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.