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Steel pens

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  • dancingbobd@webtv.net
    Hi Dave, Larry, and everyone, I have to put in my two cents worth. To me it seems that what your should use depends on what you portray. Enlisted are
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 1, 2000
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      Hi Dave, Larry, and everyone,

      I have to put in my two cents worth. To me it seems that what your
      should use depends on what you portray. Enlisted are unlikely to be
      able to afford or probably even find steel pens. Officers, especially
      of the British variety can afford them and would likely have an agent to
      purchase and forward such items to them. American officers might have
      them also. I would think that Engineers and Adjutants would be most
      likely to purchase them on their own due to the nature of their jobs.
      That said, you can't go wrong with a quill!

      Thanks, Dave for your great info. I have really enjoyed this thread and
      have learned a lot.

      Regards,

      Bob Dorian
    • Raymond Hobbs
      But how many enlisted men could read or write? The growth of literacy, the development of compulsory education, became a feature of British life after
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 2, 2000
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        But how many 'enlisted men' could read or write? The growth of literacy, the development of compulsory education, became a feature of British life after educational
        reform which followed the War.
        Enlisted men whose diaries we have - Hanks, Byfield - were probably taught to read and write later in life. Certainly their 'memoirs' were written long after the war.
        Those in the ranks who could read were given positions of responsibility - and promoted to NCOs - so they could take care of the endless lists an army/regiment created.
        Fitzgibbon, who could read, soon joined the non-coms - acting sergeant at 19, and was later commissioned as adjutant in the 49th.
        In the manual for the 41st re-enactors are listed the contents of the pack of Pvt. Dominick O'Connor, who died at Montreal in 1810. No writing equipment is included -
        he is probably typical, although evidence to the contrary would be welcome.
        Ray Hobbs
        1/41st Foot

        PS: I understand, though have not looked at it carefully, that riflemen were encouraged to learn to read and write, and that opportunities were provided by the regiments
        for this. Any comment Roger?

        dancingbobd@... wrote:

        > Hi Dave, Larry, and everyone,
        >
        > Enlisted are unlikely to be able to afford or probably even find steel pens.
        >
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Bob Dorian
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
      • Ray Hobbs
        List: A while ago the question of the use of steel pens in our period came up. I believe the discussion was inconclusive. I have spent a few days reading
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 29, 2003
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          List:
          A while ago the question of the use of steel pens in our period came
          up. I believe the discussion was inconclusive. I have spent a few
          days reading volumes of correspondence from 1800-1815 in the National
          Archives/Public Records Office in Kew, London. I found the following:

          1. Chaplain General's orders for stationery on both the 11th June, 1810
          and 11th February 1811 included 300 pens and three penknives. I assume
          these to be quill pens.
          2. Same office on 17th June, 1813 asked for same amount of paper, ink
          etc. but only one pen - a steel one.

          So, they did exist and were used at least by The Rev. Mr. John Owen, or
          his Clerk.

          Ray Hobbs
          CO 41st Regiment of Foot
          HQ Hamilton, Ontario

          The Canadas 1799-1815

          http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/

          PS: I have not seen M&C yet. It began on the day I flew to the UK, and
          opened in London the day I left. Interesting thread.
        • Craig Williams
          Further to Mr. Hobbs point... According to Painting Materials, A short Encyclopaedia by Gettens and Stout; Samuel Harrison of Birmingham began making steel
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 30, 2003
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            Further to Mr. Hobbs point...


            According to "Painting Materials, A short Encyclopaedia" by Gettens and
            Stout;
            Samuel Harrison of Birmingham began making steel nib pens in 1780, but they
            weren't available in London until 1803. They were tubular in shape with the
            seam forming the ink carrying vein, and then the tube was cut to the shape
            of a regular quill nib.
            The "modern", machine-made nib doesn't make an appearance until 1822, made
            by James Perry.

            Craig Williams

            ( PS; The following comment is for the consumption of those who like to
            quote second cousins who met someone who once held a book that may have held
            the offending statement....the above posting or Ray's original posting is
            the sort of thing we want when we ask for "references")

            > List:
            > A while ago the question of the use of steel pens in our period came
            > up.
            > 1. Chaplain General's orders for stationery on both the 11th June, 1810
            > and 11th February 1811 included 300 pens and three penknives. I assume
            > these to be quill pens.
            > 2. Same office on 17th June, 1813 asked for same amount of paper, ink
            > etc. but only one pen - a steel one.
            >
            > Ray Hobbs
          • colsjtjones2000
            May I imply from this that one steel nib, in use by 1813, would outlast 300 quill nibs? Sorry folks, but having been involved in the original
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 30, 2003
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              May I imply from this that one steel nib, in use by 1813, would
              outlast 300 quill nibs? <grin>

              Sorry folks, but having been involved in the original discussion I
              couldn't resist. And I fully realize that my supposition takes the
              info further than Ray intended.

              Doug


              -- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobbs <ray.hobbs@s...> wrote:
              > List:
              > A while ago the question of the use of steel pens in our
              period came
              > up. I believe the discussion was inconclusive. I have spent a few
              > days reading volumes of correspondence from 1800-1815 in the
              National
              > Archives/Public Records Office in Kew, London. I found the
              following:
              >
              > 1. Chaplain General's orders for stationery on both the 11th
              June, 1810
              > and 11th February 1811 included 300 pens and three penknives. I
              assume
              > these to be quill pens.
              > 2. Same office on 17th June, 1813 asked for same amount of
              paper, ink
              > etc. but only one pen - a steel one.
              >
              > So, they did exist and were used at least by The Rev. Mr. John
              Owen, or
              > his Clerk.
              >
              > Ray Hobbs
              > CO 41st Regiment of Foot
              > HQ Hamilton, Ontario
              >
              > The Canadas 1799-1815
              >
              > http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/
              >
              > PS: I have not seen M&C yet. It began on the day I flew to the UK,
              and
              > opened in London the day I left. Interesting thread.
            • Ray Hobbs
              Doug; You may infer from the information anything you wish. I implied nothing. Ray ;- ) ... ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 30, 2003
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                Doug;
                You may infer from the information anything you wish. I implied
                nothing.
                Ray ;->)



                On Sunday, November 30, 2003, at 05:50 PM, colsjtjones2000 wrote:

                > May I imply from this that one steel nib, in use by 1813, would
                > outlast 300 quill nibs?  <grin>
                >
                > Sorry folks, but having been involved in the original discussion I
                > couldn't resist.  And I fully realize that my supposition takes the
                > info further than Ray intended.
                >
                > Doug 
                >
                >
                > -- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobbs <ray.hobbs@s...> wrote:
                > > List:
                > >       A while ago the question of the use of steel pens in our
                > period came
                > > up.  I believe the discussion was inconclusive.  I have spent a few
                > > days reading volumes of correspondence from 1800-1815 in the
                > National
                > > Archives/Public Records Office in Kew, London.  I found the
                > following:
                > >
                > > 1.      Chaplain General's orders for stationery on both the 11th
                > June, 1810
                > > and 11th February 1811 included 300 pens and three penknives.  I
                > assume
                > > these to be quill pens.
                > > 2.      Same office on 17th June, 1813 asked for same amount of
                > paper, ink
                > > etc. but only one pen - a steel one.
                > >
                > > So, they did exist and were used at least by The Rev. Mr. John
                > Owen, or
                > > his Clerk.
                > >
                > > Ray Hobbs
                > > CO 41st Regiment of Foot
                > > HQ Hamilton, Ontario
                > >
                > > The Canadas 1799-1815
                > >
                > > http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/
                > >
                > > PS: I have not seen M&C yet.  It began on the day I flew to the UK,
                > and
                > > opened in London the day I left.  Interesting thread.
                >
                >
                <image.tiff>
                >
                >
                > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                >
                > Unit Contact information for North America:
                >    ---------------------------------
                > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                >
                > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • colsjtjones2000
                Ray - please realize that I was kidding. Doug ... takes the ... our ... spent a few ... 11th ... penknives.  I ... of ... the UK, ... hundreds ... of
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 30, 2003
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                  Ray - please realize that I was kidding. Doug

                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobbs <ray.hobbs@s...> wrote:
                  > Doug;
                  > You may infer from the information anything you wish. I implied
                  > nothing.
                  > Ray ;->)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Sunday, November 30, 2003, at 05:50 PM, colsjtjones2000 wrote:
                  >
                  > > May I imply from this that one steel nib, in use by 1813, would
                  > > outlast 300 quill nibs?  <grin>
                  > >
                  > > Sorry folks, but having been involved in the original discussion I
                  > > couldn't resist.  And I fully realize that my supposition
                  takes
                  the
                  > > info further than Ray intended.
                  > >
                  > > Doug 
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobbs <ray.hobbs@s...> wrote:
                  > > > List:
                  > > >       A while ago the question of the use of steel pens in
                  our
                  > > period came
                  > > > up.  I believe the discussion was inconclusive.  I have
                  spent a
                  few
                  > > > days reading volumes of correspondence from 1800-1815 in the
                  > > National
                  > > > Archives/Public Records Office in Kew, London.  I found the
                  > > following:
                  > > >
                  > > > 1.      Chaplain General's orders for stationery on both the
                  11th
                  > > June, 1810
                  > > > and 11th February 1811 included 300 pens and three
                  penknives.  I
                  > > assume
                  > > > these to be quill pens.
                  > > > 2.      Same office on 17th June, 1813 asked for same amount
                  of
                  > > paper, ink
                  > > > etc. but only one pen - a steel one.
                  > > >
                  > > > So, they did exist and were used at least by The Rev. Mr. John
                  > > Owen, or
                  > > > his Clerk.
                  > > >
                  > > > Ray Hobbs
                  > > > CO 41st Regiment of Foot
                  > > > HQ Hamilton, Ontario
                  > > >
                  > > > The Canadas 1799-1815
                  > > >
                  > > > http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/
                  > > >
                  > > > PS: I have not seen M&C yet.  It began on the day I flew to
                  the
                  UK,
                  > > and
                  > > > opened in London the day I left.  Interesting thread.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > <image.tiff>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                  hundreds
                  > > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate
                  of
                  > > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                  > >
                  > > Unit Contact information for North America:
                  > >    ---------------------------------
                  > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                  > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                  > >
                  > > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                  > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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