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Roosevelt's Naval War Book

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  • Rob Taylor
    Good book but I did not read anything that would say that the naval war was won by the U.S.? The first year seemed to be the best for the states on the ocean?
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 28, 2000
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      Good book but I did not read anything that would say
      that the naval war was won by the U.S.? The first year
      seemed to be the best for the states on the ocean?
      Then they seemed to be blockaded in port quite a bit
      after that. On the lakes Champlain and Erie was their
      best showing. Lake Ontario seemed to be a cat and
      mouse game, with no one willing to fight. I'll check
      out some other books to see if their is a different
      opinion out there.

      Rob Taylor


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    • Fitzhugh MacCrae
      ... Actually, he doesn t seem to indicaye win/loss either way.I ve been doing some tabulating of RN assets, how many RN SoL s were tasked for North America
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 28, 2000
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        --- Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...> wrote:
        > Good book but I did not read anything that would say
        > that the naval war was won by the U.S.? The first
        > year
        > seemed to be the best for the states on the ocean?
        > Then they seemed to be blockaded in port quite a bit
        > after that. On the lakes Champlain and Erie was
        > their
        > best showing. Lake Ontario seemed to be a cat and
        > mouse game, with no one willing to fight. I'll check
        > out some other books to see if their is a different
        > opinion out there.
        >
        > Rob Taylor

        Actually, he doesn't seem to indicaye win/loss either
        way.I've been doing some tabulating of RN assets, how
        many RN SoL's were tasked for North America versus the
        US and how many RN SoL's were tasked to lean on the
        French... interesting picture imerging. 30 something
        RN SoLs to Blockade or otherwise screw with the frog
        navy in 1813, which had at that time, about 40 or so
        SoLs of their own (almost half of them in the 112-118
        gun range) plus assorted frog frigates.
        In 1814 the RN tasked 21 SoLs to blockade or otherwise
        act against the USN, which had 12 frigates, 3 of them
        in ordinary.

        Seems obvious who the RN respected.....

        Fitz



        >
        >
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        > Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15
        > Free!
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        >


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      • Rob Taylor
        ... Actually, he doesn t seem to indicaye win/loss ... RN SoLs to Blockade or otherwise screw with the frog navy in 1813, which had at that time, about 40 or
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 29, 2000
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          --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:>
          Actually, he doesn't seem to indicaye win/loss
          > either
          > way.I've been doing some tabulating of RN assets,
          > how
          > many RN SoL's were tasked for North America versus
          > the
          > US and how many RN SoL's were tasked to lean on the
          > French... interesting picture imerging. 30 something
          RN SoLs to Blockade or otherwise screw with the frog
          navy in 1813, which had at that time, about 40 or so
          SoLs of their own (almost half of them in the
          112-118 gun range) plus assorted frog frigates. In
          1814 the RN tasked 21 SoLs to blockade or otherwise
          act against the USN, which had 12 frigates, 3 of them
          in ordinary. Seems obvious who the RN respected.....

          Fitz



          I imagine the the Royal Navy respected both the French
          Navy & the USN. to some degree. It is wise afterall to
          be respectful of one's enemy. I see what you mean
          about more ships to blockade the Americans than the
          French. And that the Americans had less ships to
          contend with than the French also. It would be
          interesting to see how much coastline had to be
          blockaded on both sides. Or how many ports the French
          and Americans occupied.

          Rob Taylor



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        • Tom Lawrence
          ... I had to do a little reading to get some info to respond. The French Navy in 1805-6 was kept bottled up in French and Spanish ports. One foray by
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 1, 2000
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            --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@y...> wrote:>
            > Actually, he doesn't seem to indicaye win/loss
            > > either
            > > way.I've been doing some tabulating of RN assets,
            > > how
            > > many RN SoL's were tasked for North America versus
            > > the
            > > US and how many RN SoL's were tasked to lean on the
            > > French... interesting picture imerging. 30 something
            > RN SoLs to Blockade or otherwise screw with the frog
            > navy in 1813, which had at that time, about 40 or so
            > SoLs of their own (almost half of them in the
            > 112-118 gun range) plus assorted frog frigates. In
            > 1814 the RN tasked 21 SoLs to blockade or otherwise
            > act against the USN, which had 12 frigates, 3 of them
            > in ordinary. Seems obvious who the RN respected.....
            >
            > Fitz
            >
            >
            >
            > I imagine the the Royal Navy respected both the French
            > Navy & the USN. to some degree. It is wise afterall to
            > be respectful of one's enemy. I see what you mean
            > about more ships to blockade the Americans than the
            > French. And that the Americans had less ships to
            > contend with than the French also. It would be
            > interesting to see how much coastline had to be
            > blockaded on both sides. Or how many ports the French
            > and Americans occupied.
            >
            > Rob Taylor
            >


            I had to do a little reading to get some info to respond.

            The French Navy in 1805-6 was kept bottled up in French and Spanish
            ports. One foray by Villeneuve into the Carribean was countered by
            Nelson's pursuit. Were it not for a bit of misinformation Nelson
            would have had a chance to engage Villeneuve and probably eliminate a
            great portion of the French fleet. Villeneuve managed to get back to
            France and was then bottled up by the English fleet. Many of the
            French SoL had been kept in port so long that their hulls were
            rotting away making them almost unusable. After Nelson's victory at
            Trafalgar the French Navy was so demorallized they rarely ever
            challenged the British Navy again. French Admirals rather face
            Napoleons wrath for not leaving a safe harbor than losing a ship to
            the Brits.

            A major issue when considering why so many British ships were used to
            blockade the U.S. is that the French Navy by 1812 was basically
            inert. The British Navy had by then learned it could easily blockade
            a port with just few ships. (One tactic used was to have one or two
            ships in sight of the port signalling to other ships that weren't
            anywhere near. Read 'Years of Victory' by Arthur Bryant) Cockburn's
            efforts in the Chesepeake showed he could basically do as he pleased,
            when and where he pleased. The U.S. Navy had only a handful of
            frigates and most couldn't get out of their ports. The British
            efforts in North American waters were meant to inhibit trade with its
            eneny, France, and keep U.S. warships (regular & privateers) from
            harassing British shipping. The Brits had the resources at that time
            to do this and felt it was necessary to do so to speed the end of the
            war in Europe.

            The French invasion of England had been a very serious threat for
            several years. The key to the whole plan was for the French to gain
            control of the English Channel. The French abandoned this after
            Trafalgar. The threat against the British homeland was never again
            as great as it was in 1805-6 until 1941. Isn't it ironic that the
            control of the Channel by the British in 1941, this time by air,
            stopped another invasion?

            Tom Lawrence
          • Dave Hill
            Tom, I hate to nit pick, well truthfully I really don t, but there are a couple of misconceptions in your message. Trafalgar did not save the British Isles
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 8, 2000
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              Tom,

              I hate to nit pick, well truthfully I really don't, but there are
              a couple of misconceptions in your message. Trafalgar did not save
              the British Isles from invasion. The fleet maneuvers of the previous
              months, including Nelson's dash to the West Indies and back, had
              accomplished that task. Napoleon had already started to march his
              army east when the Battle of Trafalgar took place. The
              French/Spanish fleet was heading for the Med. when Nelson caught them
              at Trafalgar. Similarly the Battle of Britain took place in 1940 not
              1941. By 1941 the other little Corporal had also started his army
              moving East.

              Trafalgar completed the virtual destruction of the French Navy that
              had begun at the Nile some years earlier. Naval battles before
              Nelson involved the actual loss of very few ships. St. Vincent (Sir
              John Jarvis) captured three ships at the Battle of St. Vincent:
              Rodney captured two or three at the Saints during the American
              Revolution and both of these were great victories. Nelson captured
              or destroyed 11 of 13 French ships at the Nile and 18 of 33 at
              Trafalgar.
              By 1812 the French capital ships were rotting hulks that were no
              longer relevant.

              The reason the Admiralty tasked so many ships of the line tasked to
              North America in 1813 and '14 was the existence of three ships;
              The President, The United States, and The Constitution. The American
              "44's" were the ultimate in their class. No British frigate had
              a chance against them (unless he got very very lucky) and even two
              frigates couldn't be assured of taking them. A British "74"
              could take one of them, if it could catch it. The real mistake of
              the USN was that it didn't really use the "44's" for extensive
              commerce raiding during 1813 and 1814. But that's another topic.

              Dave.


              --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, "Tom Lawrence" <manipi@m...> wrote:

              --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@y...> wrote:>
              ... interesting picture imerging. 30 something
              RN SoLs to Blockade or otherwise screw with the frog
              navy in 1813, which had at that time, about 40 or so
              SoLs of their own (almost half of them in the
              112-118 gun range) plus assorted frog frigates. In
              1814 the RN tasked 21 SoLs to blockade or otherwise
              act against the USN, which had 12 frigates, 3 of them
              in ordinary. Seems obvious who the RN respected.....

              Fitz




              The French invasion of England had been a very serious threat for
              several years. The key to the whole plan was for the French to gain
              control of the English Channel. The French abandoned this after
              Trafalgar. The threat against the British homeland was never again
              as great as it was in 1805-6 until 1941. Isn't it ironic that the
              control of the Channel by the British in 1941, this time by air,
              stopped another invasion?

              Tom Lawrence
            • Timothy Avery
              ... previous Dave: Hope you won t mind me inbutting here. A good solid work on the British v. French naval doctrine and strategy and the ramifications thereof
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 8, 2000
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                --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, "Dave Hill" <dave.bev@h...> wrote:
                > Tom,
                >
                > I hate to nit pick, well truthfully I really don't, but there are
                > a couple of misconceptions in your message. Trafalgar did not save
                > the British Isles from invasion. The fleet maneuvers of the
                previous

                Dave:

                Hope you won't mind me inbutting here.
                A good solid work on the British v. French naval doctrine and
                strategy and the ramifications thereof is Empire of the North
                Atlantic by Gerald S. Graham. For the Jonathan perspective, one
                should consult Alfred Thayer Mahan's second volume on seapower, which
                covers the 1812 period.

                Yo ho ho and a gill of watered-down Pusser's
                T.Avery
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