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facial hair

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  • Larry Lozon
    re: Message From: Fitzhugh MacCrae Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Today in 1814: Now NPS Fort McHenry ... please note subject change as topic has
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 14, 2000
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      re: Message
      From: Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...>
      Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Today in 1814: Now NPS Fort McHenry


      --------------------------
      please note subject change as topic has changed to:
      'cause that is what we is talkin' bout
      ------------------------------------


      David Bennett <ebclemson@...> wrote:
      Lets discuss facial hair on Regulars...British or American!



      When you are involved in prolongued contact with the
      enemy (days or weeks, not just a matter of a few
      hours), your resources and time must be carefully
      allocated to reflect the realities of the situation.
      Do you clean your weapon, or shave?


      Larry writes: Let us call a spade a spade, British
      ( and according to the learned colleague ) and
      American soldiers were orderd to shave.

      Take, for instance, Brown's division and Drummond's
      division along the Niagara in 1814. For the first
      month, both divisions are in almost constant contact
      with each otther, the americans are marching and
      countermarching up and down the river, reinforcements
      for drummond are forced marching to the front as fast
      as they can.

      Larry writes: If you had time to carry out body functions,
      according to the British Army, you had time to shave, the
      lowly Kent Militia, who were untrained farmers, were
      told to shave while marching under Gen Brock and the 41st.

      Then we look at fort Erie -

      If you were a soldier in Garrison = Fort Erie,
      you would have saved ......

      under siege you say ...... watch Zulu, he says,

      "do up your button, Man!"

      that has been the attitude in the British Army since
      inception.
      So, you shaved ............


      During my tours in Southeast asia, we frequently did
      not shave for long periods,

      Larry writes:

      Fitz: in the modern armies they don't wear their dress uniforms into battle
      thus "Battledress" but in 1812, spit & polish 'member them red coats?!?!

      We can argue, excuse me, discuss facial hair all nite, but the regs said,

      "SHAVE"

      so when showing the public "how it was"
      ... they were supposed to be clean shaven .......

      The guy who says, " I just marched from Major B's HQ in Hollywood,
      and havn't had time to shave "
      ... should be more interested in hiding his beer kooler.

      In my humble opinion




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Larry Lozon
      Re: Message From: Roger Fuller from the 95th on the retreat to Corunna, 1809: Our beards were long .... ______________ Larry
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 14, 2000
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        Re: Message
        From: Roger Fuller <fullerfamily@...>

        from the 95th on the retreat to Corunna, 1809:
        "Our beards were long ....


        ______________

        Larry writes: I must qualify my statement:

        "In North America ...."

        I know some of us do "Napoleonic" but I was
        talking about re-enactment's in North America.

        So yep Rog.
        ..... they were raggy in Spain & Portugal
        but I portray a Brit soldier in garrison in Canada ...

        we were ordered to shave ........


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Larry Lozon
        re: Message From: Scott Jeznach
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 14, 2000
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          re: Message
          From: Scott Jeznach <scottj@...


          This would give you the "Miami Vice, Don Johnson"
          look.


          Scott, I don't drive a yellow 'Cuda' :^)



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ibbotson, Mark [LSS]
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 16, 2000
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            << "Our beards were long
            and ragged, almost all were without shoes and stockings,many had their
            clothes and accoutrements in fragments, with their heads swarthed in old
            rags, and our weapons were covered in rust", >>

            Roger

            Sounds like Washingtons rabble roughing it, whilst howe was in Philadelphia.

            I assume this is refering to U.S forces. Should be proud of em none the less. They did finally manage to produce a well trained army.

            And with that in mind GB had to send lots of troops to Canada to counter any threat from them.

            Wellsleys vets commented on how hard they were. Not like fighting the French, too determined you see.

            Ibbo
          • HQ93rd@aol.com
            In a message dated 9/14/00 12:47:49 PM, lalozon@mnsi.net writes:
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 19, 2000
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              In a message dated 9/14/00 12:47:49 PM, lalozon@... writes:

              <<
              The guy who says, " I just marched from Major B's HQ in Hollywood,
              and havn't had time to shave "
              ... should be more interested in hiding his beer kooler.
              >>

              Indeed he should...

              'cause if I find it, it'll be empty in 2 secs flat!
              ;-)
              B

              93rd SHRoFLHU
              THE Thin Red Line
              http://hometown.aol.com/ninety3rd
            • Larry Lozon
              From: My understanding is that facial hair in British service ... could not be worn below a line from the corner of the mouth to the
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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                From: <suthren@...>

                My understanding is that facial hair in British service
                ... could not be worn below a line from the corner of
                the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
                pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners.

                ------------------------

                Question:

                If the Chelsea Pensioners in 1812-1815 were in the British Army on
                half pay,
                would they not come under the Army Regulations of shaving every three days?

                I have not seen period images of Chelsea Pensioners with facial hair.

                Those more qualified with the Royal Warrants may want to answer my question.

                For those interested in this matter
                visit:
                http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk


                Yrs.,

                L2
              • Peter Catley
                Isn t half pay a Rupert thing? My understanding is that the Pensioners (OR) were not on half pay, they were discharged from the Army and became Out-Pensioners
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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                  Isn't half pay a Rupert thing? My understanding is that the Pensioners (OR)
                  were not on half pay, they were discharged from the Army and became
                  Out-Pensioners after an award made by the Medical Board of the Hospital this
                  was then surrendered on ceasing to be out-pensioners when they entered the
                  hospital. Your question is valid, but as I understand the situation that all
                  pensioners kept their badges of rank even though they ceased to carry the
                  ranks, so corporals wore two stripes even though they were not corporals in
                  the hospital. One can reasonably assume that this would also applied to
                  Pioneers.

                  As to whether the In-Pensioners are "in" the Army I am not 100% sure.
                  Certainly today I believe thay are are not subject to Queens Regulation and
                  my understanding is that in our period they were discharged (that much is
                  documented!) before being awarded their pension. It would seem likely
                  therefore that they were not subject to the same Army Regulations and would
                  have their own Hospital Rules.

                  Neither of the paintings by Pyne or Hamilton-Smith show a hairsute
                  pensioner, and Hamilton-Smith shows a one legged pensioner :-) I do have a
                  picture of an elderly pensioner with a beard but cannot date it precisely,
                  the uniform is no later than early Victorian (1840ish?). There continues to
                  be the same problem relating to absolutism, the fact that something is not
                  documented doesn't mean that it didn't exsist merely that it was not the
                  norm. I personally believe that facial hair was more common than the
                  purists would have us believe, especially in the case of overseas postings
                  such as the Peninsula and Canada.

                  However the reality of the situation cannot be proved either way.

                  Cheers now.

                  P**

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Larry Lozon [mailto:lalozon@...]
                  Sent: 01 September 2004 20:50
                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [WarOf1812] facial hair


                  From: <suthren@...>

                  My understanding is that facial hair in British service
                  ... could not be worn below a line from the corner of
                  the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
                  pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners.

                  ------------------------

                  Question:

                  If the Chelsea Pensioners in 1812-1815 were in the British Army on
                  half pay,
                  would they not come under the Army Regulations of shaving every three days?

                  I have not seen period images of Chelsea Pensioners with facial hair.

                  Those more qualified with the Royal Warrants may want to answer my question.

                  For those interested in this matter
                  visit:
                  http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk


                  Yrs.,

                  L2












                  The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                  square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                  square miles...

                  Unit Contact information for North America:
                  ---------------------------------
                  Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                  http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                  American Forces Unit Lisiting
                  http://usforces1812.tripod.com



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • suthren@magma.ca
                  Larry makes a good point. I cannot quote any image of Pensioners with facial hair, nor orders either for or against. Socially, beards were still associated
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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                    Larry makes a good point. I cannot quote any image of Pensioners with facial
                    hair, nor orders either for or against. Socially, beards were still
                    associated with the identity of incarcerated lunatics or criminals, so it
                    may be that the exclusion of facial hair as far as we are concerned (unless
                    someone is nuts or a crook) should be universal. Probably means some lads
                    will pack up their stuff and go home rather than shave---but we would look
                    more like we are supposed to look. Problem is, some otherwise very fine
                    re-enactors turn out with jarring full Crimean beards for 1812: how do we
                    reason with these sterling chaps and get 'em to see the light---er, razor?
                    Vic
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@...>
                    To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 3:50 PM
                    Subject: [WarOf1812] facial hair


                    > From: <suthren@...>
                    >
                    > My understanding is that facial hair in British service
                    > ... could not be worn below a line from the corner of
                    > the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
                    > pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners.
                    >
                    > ------------------------
                    >
                    > Question:
                    >
                    > If the Chelsea Pensioners in 1812-1815 were in the British Army on
                    > half pay,
                    > would they not come under the Army Regulations of shaving every three
                    days?
                    >
                    > I have not seen period images of Chelsea Pensioners with facial hair.
                    >
                    > Those more qualified with the Royal Warrants may want to answer my
                    question.
                    >
                    > For those interested in this matter
                    > visit:
                    > http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk
                    >
                    >
                    > Yrs.,
                    >
                    > L2
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                    square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                    square miles...
                    >
                    > Unit Contact information for North America:
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                    > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                    >
                    > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                    > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Larry Lozon
                    From: Peter Catley I personally believe that facial hair was more common than the purists would have us believe, especially in
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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                      From: "Peter Catley" <peter.catley@...>



                      I personally believe that facial hair was more common than the
                      purists would have us believe, especially in the case of overseas postings
                      such as the Peninsula and Canada.

                      .............

                      No Chelsea Pensioners in Canada or the Peninsula they were all adjacent
                      to
                      the River Thames in the pastoral setting of Chelsea.

                      King Charles was determined to make provision for the soldiers on the
                      English
                      establishment and on 22nd December 1681 he issued a Royal Warrant
                      authorising
                      the building of the Royal Hospital.

                      Therefore Royal Warrant and to answer Mr. Windsor's question, they
                      maintained their
                      army rank in the Royal Hospital Chelsea thus came under Warrant rules of the
                      Army.

                      From:

                      http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk/

                      The term 'Chelsea Pensioner' has been used over the centuries to describe
                      both 'In-' and 'Out-Pensioners'.
                      An 'In-Pensioner' is simply one who resides in the Royal Hospital Chelsea.
                      On entry, he surrenders his army
                      pension. An Out-Pensioner is a former soldier of the Regular Army who
                      receives a pension for long service
                      and/or disability caused through service.

                      The term derives from the period when the Royal Hospital was still being
                      built. James II, who succeeded King Charles in 1685, made the first attempt
                      to put Army pensions on a systematic basis in 1689. He decreed that a daily
                      allowance should be made to all soldiers disabled by wounds or accidents,
                      who had become unfit for service or who had served for 20 years.

                      By the time the Royal Hospital opened there were more Pensioners than places
                      available. Those that could not be offered a place were termed
                      Out-Pensioners. In 1703 there were as few as 51. However, the increasing
                      size of a standing army meant that the number of Out-Pensioners rose
                      steadily - from 739 in 1708, to 14,700 in 1763 (after the Seven Years War)
                      and 36,757 in 1815.

                      The Royal Hospital remained responsible for all army pensions until 1955.

                      Interesting ........
                    • glifencible
                      ... lunatics or criminals... ... light---er, razor? I don t think you can reason with lunatics or criminals! *ducking for cover*
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 2, 2004
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                        > beards were still associated with the identity of incarcerated
                        lunatics or criminals...

                        >how do we reason with these sterling chaps and get 'em to see the
                        light---er, razor?

                        I don't think you can reason with lunatics or criminals! *ducking for
                        cover*
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