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Re: [WarOf1812] Re: War of 1812 Naval Battles

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  • Rob Taylor
    ... . Without the support of Downie s squadron to provide defellade fire support, it would have been a slaughter. Fitz these men had been under more intense
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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      --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
      . Without the support of Downie's squadron to provide
      defellade fire support, it would have been a
      slaughter.

      Fitz these men had been under more intense fire than
      this in Europe, thyey would over came the artillery
      and pushed on.

      --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
      "...and every victory is followed by a retreat..."

      Not all, but in some cases it would be best if they
      withdrew, as is the case here. Had they moved forward.

      --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:

      now picture the result of trying to get even the same
      number of troops across that bridhe in column, with an
      even greater4 nummber of guns zeroed in on it. Macomb
      was an artillery officer originally,


      Are you saying because these guns were aimed at the
      bridge, and Macomb was an artillery officer, that was
      reason to pack up and go home. I think not. They
      should have presed on by what ever way was best for
      them. They would have taken Plattsburgh no doubt. Then
      they would have had to retreat.






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    • Col Sjt Jones
      ... The British first-rate St. Lawrence was in commission on Lake Ontario in Oct. 1814. Wolfe and Canada were in frame. Doug Jones
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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        --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@y...> wrote:
        >
        > --- mmathews@V... wrote:
        > > >
        > > >Hear, hear. The toadie Americans could only put
        > > out privateers and
        > > >pirates.
        >
        >
        > Any particular reason why american privateers were
        > pirates and British and Canadian privateers were not??
        > Halifax produced some very successful privateers in
        > both the AWI and 1812, you know.
        > It would be very sad if the only account of Canadian
        > privateers was the lyrics to "Barrett's Privateers" -
        > does some very brave men no service.
        > >
        > > Kind of a shame too. There were plenty of ships 'o
        > > the line building, and
        > > easily *could* have been ready for the war. In 1815
        > > a lot of ships were
        > > finally completed, all too late to have any effect.
        > > But didn't both sides
        > > have a massive SOL on Lake Ontario? Something in
        > > the nature of a 100
        > > gunner?
        >
        > Yeo had a 112 gun ship building (among others), the
        > Americans had a 120 building (among others). While
        > Roosevelt states that the New Orleans was a 74,
        > Chappelle gives the dimensions and guns carried, and
        > clearly shows that it was much bigger. A photo of the
        > hulk of the New Orleans up on blocks in thye early
        > 1880's exists - if you like, I can send you a jpg of
        > it back-channel.
        >
        > Fitz
        >

        The British first-rate St. Lawrence was in commission on Lake Ontario
        in Oct. 1814. Wolfe and Canada were in frame.

        Doug Jones
        >
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      • Fitzhugh MacCrae
        ... The Saranac Bridge used to be the longest uncovered bridge in New York, 212 feet long by 18 feet wide. assuming they packed it shouolder to shoulder, each
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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          --- Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
          > . Without the support of Downie's squadron to
          > provide
          > defellade fire support, it would have been a
          > slaughter.
          >
          > Fitz these men had been under more intense fire than
          > this in Europe, thyey would over came the artillery
          > and pushed on.

          The Saranac Bridge used to be the longest uncovered
          bridge in New York, 212 feet long by 18 feet wide.
          assuming they packed it shouolder to shoulder, each
          rank is only 6 men wide. The bridge is being raked by
          heavy cannonfire (figure one round per 90 seconds for
          a 24 pdr, use that as an average as the heavy guns
          included both 32's and 18's as well as 24's) My map
          (photocopy of the one at West Point) shows 19 heavy
          guns that can bear within an arc of 30 degrees,
          centered on the bridge. All 19 guns are within 500
          yards of the south end of the bridge. This works out
          as one heavy shot hitting a tightly packed column of
          men from the one angle that will cause the most
          casualties about every 5 seconds.
          The math is simple - the bridge is a deathtrap. Since
          it was made of wood and all military stores had
          already moved south of the river, one cannot but
          assume that the bridge was left up for a good
          reason.Powers isn't going to get across with any
          substantial forces there.
          Lets go over to Robinson's brigade.
          Once Robinson pushes aside the 4000 or so militia in
          the woods (do-able) he comes out on the flats on the
          south side of the river.
          So far, so good.
          Now he has to assault uphill across about 350 yards of
          open terrain to reach what appears to be the main
          American line - 6 redoubts and small forts on the
          ridge crest, each one within comfortable range of the
          next.
          Back a little on the reverse slope (I make it an
          average of 30 yards) are the earthworks, connecting
          each strong point. The six strongpoints have a total
          of 31 heavy guns, including three 18 pdr columbiad
          shell guns. The earthworks connecting them contain 17
          field guns, probably mostly 6's, with a scattering of
          12's. The defense line is held by mostly regulars.
          Assume that most of the heavy guns are distracted by
          Powers doing a sacrifice play at the bridge, and thus
          19 guns do not fire at Robinson's brigade at all
          during their approach.
          That means 13 heavy guns are able to shoot at Robinson
          from anywhere from about 1000 yards out to 30 yards,
          with the fire from the fieldguns masked due to the
          military crest being in the way.
          Keep in mind that the earthworks that connected the
          strongpoints are not visible from the British line of
          sight, because they are back on the reverse slope.
          Assume powers's sacrifice is not for naught, and two
          thirds of Robinson's brigade actually makes it up to
          the crest....
          Where they discover that they are standing 30 yards in
          front of earthworks manned by a brigade of regulars,
          with lots of field guns loaded with cannister.
          The smart ones will put themselves on the north side
          of that crest as fast as they can.
          Unfortunately, they are in a prime position to take
          heavy flanking fire from the nearest strongpoints
          there.
          Assumingt that Prevost was smart enough to support
          Robinson (and this takes a great stretch of
          imagination), they might eventually bull their way
          throughh the line somewhere. Of course, they have to
          take each and every redoubt, or anyone who bulled
          through is caught in a crossfire....
          Assume that they do, at the usual butcher's bill for
          that kind of fighting (assume Prevost is a genius and
          the follow-on brigade is bring scaling ladders so that
          they can storm the redoubts - and if you get that far,
          write me back channel with the name of your pusher,
          'cause he has some really good s__t).
          Assume all of the above - the British break the line,
          take all of the redoubts, burn the supplies, and march
          home claiming a victory.

          A few more victories like that, and we could have
          moved the new US capital to Montreal!!
          When Robinson and Powers said that the direct attack
          approach was practical, they were playing the same
          time-honoured game of all sub-commanders ever since
          Ugghh the Neanderthal took some of his buddies and
          tried to run those upstart Cro-Magnon out of the
          neighborhood.
          "We coulda done it if the Boss hadn't
          yaddayaddayadda".
          This is called CYA, and it is an ancient military
          tradition. Even Elting said that Robinson was talking
          for posterity, not reality.



          "...and every victory is followed by a retreat..."

          Fitz


          =====
          Founder, Pagan Liberation Antique Twinkies Collectors Front and Marching Chorale

          "Fluff Bunnies - The OTHER White Meat"

          "Come back, Guy Faulkes - all's forgiven. We'll leave a light on in the Capitol basement for you. . . ."

          __________________________________________________
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        • Rob Taylor
          ... A few more victories like that, and we could have moved the new US capital to Montreal!! You have not accounted for the possibility that the Americans
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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            --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
            A few more victories like that, and we could have
            moved the new US capital to Montreal!!

            You have not accounted for the possibility that the
            Americans might break and run, seeing over 10,000 well
            trained veteran redcoats marhing at them might have
            unnerved them. Seeing how the British soldiers
            themselves did not think it would be a hard position
            to take, or that the American force in front of them
            was as tough as the French soldiers they had already
            faced in Europe. At Bladensburgh there was a bridge
            covered by an artillery piece. Did a lot of damage
            too. There were only 5,000 recoats there, and Barney
            and his men were the only ones that stuck around to
            see how it all turned out. Considering what happened
            there I suspect you would not be moving your capital
            to Montreal anytime soon. I respect your opinion, I
            just don't agree with it.

            Rob Taylor

            Rob Taylor
            >
            > --- Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
            > > . Without the support of Downie's squadron to
            > > provide
            > > defellade fire support, it would have been a
            > > slaughter.
            > >
            > > Fitz these men had been under more intense fire
            > than
            > > this in Europe, thyey would over came the
            > artillery
            > > and pushed on.
            >
            > The Saranac Bridge used to be the longest uncovered
            > bridge in New York, 212 feet long by 18 feet wide.
            > assuming they packed it shouolder to shoulder, each
            > rank is only 6 men wide. The bridge is being raked
            > by
            > heavy cannonfire (figure one round per 90 seconds
            > for
            > a 24 pdr, use that as an average as the heavy guns
            > included both 32's and 18's as well as 24's) My map
            > (photocopy of the one at West Point) shows 19 heavy
            > guns that can bear within an arc of 30 degrees,
            > centered on the bridge. All 19 guns are within 500
            > yards of the south end of the bridge. This works out
            > as one heavy shot hitting a tightly packed column
            > of
            > men from the one angle that will cause the most
            > casualties about every 5 seconds.
            > The math is simple - the bridge is a deathtrap.
            > Since
            > it was made of wood and all military stores had
            > already moved south of the river, one cannot but
            > assume that the bridge was left up for a good
            > reason.Powers isn't going to get across with any
            > substantial forces there.
            > Lets go over to Robinson's brigade.
            > Once Robinson pushes aside the 4000 or so militia in
            > the woods (do-able) he comes out on the flats on the
            > south side of the river.
            > So far, so good.
            > Now he has to assault uphill across about 350 yards
            > of
            > open terrain to reach what appears to be the main
            > American line - 6 redoubts and small forts on the
            > ridge crest, each one within comfortable range of
            > the
            > next.
            > Back a little on the reverse slope (I make it an
            > average of 30 yards) are the earthworks, connecting
            > each strong point. The six strongpoints have a total
            > of 31 heavy guns, including three 18 pdr columbiad
            > shell guns. The earthworks connecting them contain
            > 17
            > field guns, probably mostly 6's, with a scattering
            > of
            > 12's. The defense line is held by mostly regulars.
            > Assume that most of the heavy guns are distracted by
            >
            > Powers doing a sacrifice play at the bridge, and
            > thus
            > 19 guns do not fire at Robinson's brigade at all
            > during their approach.
            > That means 13 heavy guns are able to shoot at
            > Robinson
            > from anywhere from about 1000 yards out to 30 yards,
            > with the fire from the fieldguns masked due to the
            > military crest being in the way.
            > Keep in mind that the earthworks that connected the
            > strongpoints are not visible from the British line
            > of
            > sight, because they are back on the reverse slope.
            > Assume powers's sacrifice is not for naught, and two
            > thirds of Robinson's brigade actually makes it up to
            > the crest....
            > Where they discover that they are standing 30 yards
            > in
            > front of earthworks manned by a brigade of regulars,
            > with lots of field guns loaded with cannister.
            > The smart ones will put themselves on the north side
            > of that crest as fast as they can.
            > Unfortunately, they are in a prime position to take
            > heavy flanking fire from the nearest strongpoints
            > there.
            > Assumingt that Prevost was smart enough to support
            > Robinson (and this takes a great stretch of
            > imagination), they might eventually bull their way
            > throughh the line somewhere. Of course, they have to
            > take each and every redoubt, or anyone who bulled
            > through is caught in a crossfire....
            > Assume that they do, at the usual butcher's bill for
            > that kind of fighting (assume Prevost is a genius
            > and
            > the follow-on brigade is bring scaling ladders so
            > that
            > they can storm the redoubts - and if you get that
            > far,
            > write me back channel with the name of your pusher,
            > 'cause he has some really good s__t).
            > Assume all of the above - the British break the
            > line,
            > take all of the redoubts, burn the supplies, and
            > march
            > home claiming a victory.
            >
            > A few more victories like that, and we could have
            > moved the new US capital to Montreal!!
            > When Robinson and Powers said that the direct attack
            > approach was practical, they were playing the same
            > time-honoured game of all sub-commanders ever since
            > Ugghh the Neanderthal took some of his buddies and
            > tried to run those upstart Cro-Magnon out of the
            > neighborhood.
            > "We coulda done it if the Boss hadn't
            > yaddayaddayadda".
            > This is called CYA, and it is an ancient military
            > tradition. Even Elting said that Robinson was
            > talking
            > for posterity, not reality.
            >
            >
            >
            > "...and every victory is followed by a retreat..."
            >
            > Fitz
            >
            >
            > =====
            > Founder, Pagan Liberation Antique Twinkies
            > Collectors Front and Marching Chorale
            >
            > "Fluff Bunnies - The OTHER White Meat"
            >
            > "Come back, Guy Faulkes - all's forgiven. We'll
            > leave a light on in the Capitol basement for you. .
            > . ."
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from
            > anywhere!
            > http://mail.yahoo.com/
            >


            __________________________________________________
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          • Fitzhugh MacCrae
            ... At Plattsburg there was one gun (I think a 6pdr) manned by militia who didn t even know the proper drill. When captured it was muzzle in the dirt, trail in
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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              --- Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
              > A few more victories like that, and we could have
              > moved the new US capital to Montreal!!
              >
              > You have not accounted for the possibility that the
              > Americans might break and run, seeing over 10,000
              > well
              > trained veteran redcoats marhing at them might have
              > unnerved them. Seeing how the British soldiers
              > themselves did not think it would be a hard position
              > to take, or that the American force in front of them
              > was as tough as the French soldiers they had already
              > faced in Europe. At Bladensburgh there was a bridge
              > covered by an artillery piece. Did a lot of damage
              > too. There were only 5,000 recoats there, and Barney
              > and his men were the only ones that stuck around to
              > see how it all turned out. Considering what happened
              > there I suspect you would not be moving your capital
              > to Montreal anytime soon. I respect your opinion, I
              > just don't agree with it.
              >
              > Rob Taylor
              At Plattsburg there was one gun (I think a 6pdr)
              manned by militia who didn't even know the proper
              drill. When captured it was muzzle in the dirt, trail
              in the air - the gunners had forgotten to put the
              powder bag in before ramming in the ball. Upon
              discovering their mistake, they tried to get the ball
              out by tipping the gun forward, where it got stuck.
              I've often imagined that some of the British
              casualties were from men who died laughing at this
              grade B comedy.
              At Plattsburg, Macomb wisely chose to send the two
              brigades of militia off into the woods, while manning
              the fortified line with regulars. He had an
              extraordinary artillery advantage, the British had to
              advance through bottlenecks just to get to the killing
              zones, and then hike 350 yards uphill against a
              defensive line most of which they couldn't even see
              and thus know was there until they hit the military
              crest. Of such situations are great military disasters
              made.
              As far as the regulars running, I very much doubt it.
              Macomb's people were just as well drilled as Brown's
              (Plattsburg was where the other camp of instruction
              had been established, run by Izard, who was a graduate
              of a French military school) and if neccesary would
              have died in place just like Scott's brigade at
              Lundy's Lane. The fact that these were Wellington's
              veterens was something that seems to have impressed
              nobody but the Maryland militia. A British offi9cer
              who had served in both Spain and the Niagara later
              said that fighting against American regulars was more
              fierce, much more bloody, and infinately worse than
              anything experienced in Spain.
              If Prevost attempted the attack anyway, it would not
              only have broken his army, the results would have
              broken England's heart.
              The one point in the whole mess that I find
              hysterically funny is that one the British side of the
              river, there was a road that headed west. A good road,
              much better than the one he had just come down. It
              went through the Aderondacks, and came out at
              Sackett's Harbor on the undefended landward side.
              If anyone - Prevost, Powers, Robinson, whoever - had
              thought to ask where the road went, they could have
              won the war in a month. At that moment, Sackett's
              Harbor was protected by a single brigade of regulars,
              some militia, a volunteer light infantry regiment, a
              dragoon depot squadron, several hundred replacements
              and recruits waiting to be sorted out and sent to
              other regiments, and the naval personnel. They
              landward defenses had been started, but would not be
              completed until December, 1814. Izard's division had
              already left for the Niagara. The door was wide open,
              nobody was expecting an attack, and the route from
              Sackett's Harbor suth was completely undefended. There
              would have been nothing between Prevost and New York
              City than some brittle NY militia.

              And nobody thought to ask, "By the way, my good man,
              where does that road go?"

              Nope - under the circumstances, they would have taken
              a beating if they had tried to force the river. Not
              because there was anything lacking in the men, but
              because their commanders were either too ignorant
              (Prevost) or too arrogant (Robinson, Powers, et al) to
              bother to examine all their options.
              Drummond, Ross, Packenham, Gibbs and Lambert would
              have never made that mistake, though Keane might have,
              and after Chippawa Riall really didn't want to mix it
              with American regulars again, and so would have not
              been a position to make the mistakes that were made at
              Plattsburg.

              Fitz

              =====
              Founder, Pagan Liberation Antique Twinkies Collectors Front and Marching Chorale

              "Fluff Bunnies - The OTHER White Meat"

              "Come back, Guy Faulkes - all's forgiven. We'll leave a light on in the Capitol basement for you. . . ."

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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            • easeufe@aol.com
              In a message dated 9/1/00 2:43:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... My apologies. You were right Mike. The Columbia was a 44 and was being built when she was
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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                In a message dated 9/1/00 2:43:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                mmathews@... writes:

                > I *think* this is where the Columbia was burned IIRC, and she was rated a
                > 44. Could easily be wrong.
                >
                My apologies. You were right Mike. The Columbia was a 44 and was
                being built when she was burned. She was waiting her copper and upper
                works to be finished.

                Ed Seufert, LCpl
                1812 Royal Marines
              • Rob Taylor
                Like I said before Fitz, I respect your opinion,But I do not agree with it. Also I believe that the British officers who had served overseas were well aware of
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 2, 2000
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                  Like I said before Fitz, I respect your opinion,But I
                  do not agree with it. Also I believe that the British
                  officers who had served overseas were well aware of
                  what they faced on the other side of the river at
                  Plattsburgh. What saved Plattsburgh pure and simple is
                  Prevost's decision to retreat back into Canada. Mind
                  you, had he let the force attack they still would have
                  had to retreat, but only after winning the victory on
                  land. Nope - under the circumstances, to assume that
                  the American force at Plattsburgh would have
                  thoroughly beaten the British force is quite frankly,
                  assuming alot.

                  I enjoyed your post,
                  Rob Taylor

                  --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
                  > > A few more victories like that, and we could have
                  > > moved the new US capital to Montreal!!
                  > >
                  > > You have not accounted for the possibility that
                  > the
                  > > Americans might break and run, seeing over 10,000
                  > > well
                  > > trained veteran redcoats marhing at them might
                  > have
                  > > unnerved them. Seeing how the British soldiers
                  > > themselves did not think it would be a hard
                  > position
                  > > to take, or that the American force in front of
                  > them
                  > > was as tough as the French soldiers they had
                  > already
                  > > faced in Europe. At Bladensburgh there was a
                  > bridge
                  > > covered by an artillery piece. Did a lot of damage
                  > > too. There were only 5,000 recoats there, and
                  > Barney
                  > > and his men were the only ones that stuck around
                  > to
                  > > see how it all turned out. Considering what
                  > happened
                  > > there I suspect you would not be moving your
                  > capital
                  > > to Montreal anytime soon. I respect your opinion,
                  > I
                  > > just don't agree with it.
                  > >
                  > > Rob Taylor
                  > At Plattsburg there was one gun (I think a 6pdr)
                  > manned by militia who didn't even know the proper
                  > drill. When captured it was muzzle in the dirt,
                  > trail
                  > in the air - the gunners had forgotten to put the
                  > powder bag in before ramming in the ball. Upon
                  > discovering their mistake, they tried to get the
                  > ball
                  > out by tipping the gun forward, where it got stuck.
                  > I've often imagined that some of the British
                  > casualties were from men who died laughing at this
                  > grade B comedy.
                  > At Plattsburg, Macomb wisely chose to send the two
                  > brigades of militia off into the woods, while
                  > manning
                  > the fortified line with regulars. He had an
                  > extraordinary artillery advantage, the British had
                  > to
                  > advance through bottlenecks just to get to the
                  > killing
                  > zones, and then hike 350 yards uphill against a
                  > defensive line most of which they couldn't even see
                  > and thus know was there until they hit the military
                  > crest. Of such situations are great military
                  > disasters
                  > made.
                  > As far as the regulars running, I very much doubt
                  > it.
                  > Macomb's people were just as well drilled as Brown's
                  > (Plattsburg was where the other camp of instruction
                  > had been established, run by Izard, who was a
                  > graduate
                  > of a French military school) and if neccesary would
                  > have died in place just like Scott's brigade at
                  > Lundy's Lane. The fact that these were Wellington's
                  > veterens was something that seems to have impressed
                  > nobody but the Maryland militia. A British offi9cer
                  > who had served in both Spain and the Niagara later
                  > said that fighting against American regulars was
                  > more
                  > fierce, much more bloody, and infinately worse than
                  > anything experienced in Spain.
                  > If Prevost attempted the attack anyway, it would not
                  > only have broken his army, the results would have
                  > broken England's heart.
                  > The one point in the whole mess that I find
                  > hysterically funny is that one the British side of
                  > the
                  > river, there was a road that headed west. A good
                  > road,
                  > much better than the one he had just come down. It
                  > went through the Aderondacks, and came out at
                  > Sackett's Harbor on the undefended landward side.
                  > If anyone - Prevost, Powers, Robinson, whoever - had
                  > thought to ask where the road went, they could have
                  > won the war in a month. At that moment, Sackett's
                  > Harbor was protected by a single brigade of
                  > regulars,
                  > some militia, a volunteer light infantry regiment, a
                  > dragoon depot squadron, several hundred replacements
                  > and recruits waiting to be sorted out and sent to
                  > other regiments, and the naval personnel. They
                  > landward defenses had been started, but would not be
                  > completed until December, 1814. Izard's division had
                  > already left for the Niagara. The door was wide
                  > open,
                  > nobody was expecting an attack, and the route from
                  > Sackett's Harbor suth was completely undefended.
                  > There
                  > would have been nothing between Prevost and New York
                  > City than some brittle NY militia.
                  >
                  > And nobody thought to ask, "By the way, my good man,
                  > where does that road go?"
                  >
                  > Nope - under the circumstances, they would have
                  > taken
                  > a beating if they had tried to force the river. Not
                  > because there was anything lacking in the men, but
                  > because their commanders were either too ignorant
                  > (Prevost) or too arrogant (Robinson, Powers, et al)
                  > to
                  > bother to examine all their options.
                  > Drummond, Ross, Packenham, Gibbs and Lambert would
                  > have never made that mistake, though Keane might
                  > have,
                  > and after Chippawa Riall really didn't want to mix
                  > it
                  > with American regulars again, and so would have not
                  > been a position to make the mistakes that were made
                  > at
                  > Plattsburg.
                  >
                  > Fitz
                  >
                  > =====
                  > Founder, Pagan Liberation Antique Twinkies
                  > Collectors Front and Marching Chorale
                  >
                  > "Fluff Bunnies - The OTHER White Meat"
                  >
                  > "Come back, Guy Faulkes - all's forgiven. We'll
                  > leave a light on in the Capitol basement for you. .
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                • Dave Hill
                  ... Hear, hear. The toadie Americans could only put out privateers and pirates. Having recently returned from holidays and spent almost a week catching up on
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 6, 2000
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                    --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, mmathews@V... wrote:

                    Hear, hear. The toadie Americans could only put out privateers and
                    pirates.


                    Having recently returned from holidays and spent almost a week
                    catching up on the various discussions (over 500 messages), I would
                    like to comment on one discussion.

                    It seems to be generally accepted that the U.S. Navy had little
                    difficulty gaining recruits. It would appear that the Navy had
                    difficulty competing with the Army which was offering bounties that
                    eventually reached $124.00 and 320 acres of land. It appears that
                    even experienced sailors joined the Army for the bounty. The Navy had
                    even more difficulty recruiting for the lake squadrons and the
                    gunboat flotillas. The Navy didn't start paying bounties until
                    1814.

                    The major competition for men was from privateers. The cruises were
                    much shorter (two or three months as compared to a one year
                    enlistment in the Navy) and the pay was potentially much higher. Two
                    examples are, the Yankee out of Bristol RI which captured eight ships
                    worth $300,000.00, and the Rossie out of Baltimore (Capt. Joshua
                    Barney)which captured eighteen vessels worth close to $1,500,000,00.
                    On the negative side is the fact that the RN captured about 150
                    privateers in the first eight months of the war. The U.S. Navy
                    captured about 50 merchant ships during the war, while in the first
                    six months privateers captured about 450 ships.
                    Privateers didn't fight other privateers or warships if it could
                    be avoided. They were in the business for profit not glory.

                    Dave.
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