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Re: [WarOf1812] Re: War of 1812 Naval Battles

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  • Fitzhugh MacCrae
    ... You are correct - the Columbia was a 44. Also present and burned at the time was the New York 36, Boston 32, at least one of the old 28 s, and the Argus
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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      --- mmathews@... wrote:
      > >--- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, Fitzhugh MacCrae
      > <alaidh@y...> wrote:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Um, Alexandria's on the Potomac, across from
      > >> Washington Navy Yard. Couldn't have been that
      > hard a
      > >> sail if they were building 44's at the yard.
      > >>
      > >> Fitz
      > >>
      > >Actually Alexandria lies about 5 miles below the
      > Navy
      > >Yard. And I don't believe they ever built 44's
      > there
      > >just 28's and 36's. One was on the stocks when the
      > >Navy Yard was set on fire.
      > >
      >
      > I *think* this is where the Columbia was burned
      > IIRC, and she was rated a
      > 44. Could easily be wrong.
      >

      You are correct - the Columbia was a 44. Also present
      and burned at the time was the New York 36, Boston 32,
      at least one of the old 28's, and the Argus II, 18.

      Fitz


      =====
      Founder, Pagan Liberation Antique Twinkies Collectors Front and Marching Chorale

      "Fluff Bunnies - The OTHER White Meat"

      "Come back, Guy Faulkes - all's forgiven. We'll leave a light on in the Capitol basement for you. . . ."

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    • mmathews@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
      ... The old 28 would be the Adams. Michael Michael Mathews -- Winona State University Voice: (507) 285-7585 Cel: (507) 450-3535 Fax: (507) 280-5568 ... It
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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        >You are correct - the Columbia was a 44. Also present
        >and burned at the time was the New York 36, Boston 32,
        >at least one of the old 28's, and the Argus II, 18.

        The old 28 would be the Adams.

        Michael

        Michael Mathews -- Winona State University
        Voice: (507) 285-7585 Cel: (507) 450-3535 Fax: (507) 280-5568
        ------------------------------
        "It find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have."
        - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
      • Rob Taylor
        ... . Without the support of Downie s squadron to provide defellade fire support, it would have been a slaughter. Fitz these men had been under more intense
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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          --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
          . Without the support of Downie's squadron to provide
          defellade fire support, it would have been a
          slaughter.

          Fitz these men had been under more intense fire than
          this in Europe, thyey would over came the artillery
          and pushed on.

          --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
          "...and every victory is followed by a retreat..."

          Not all, but in some cases it would be best if they
          withdrew, as is the case here. Had they moved forward.

          --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:

          now picture the result of trying to get even the same
          number of troops across that bridhe in column, with an
          even greater4 nummber of guns zeroed in on it. Macomb
          was an artillery officer originally,


          Are you saying because these guns were aimed at the
          bridge, and Macomb was an artillery officer, that was
          reason to pack up and go home. I think not. They
          should have presed on by what ever way was best for
          them. They would have taken Plattsburgh no doubt. Then
          they would have had to retreat.






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        • Col Sjt Jones
          ... The British first-rate St. Lawrence was in commission on Lake Ontario in Oct. 1814. Wolfe and Canada were in frame. Doug Jones
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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            --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@y...> wrote:
            >
            > --- mmathews@V... wrote:
            > > >
            > > >Hear, hear. The toadie Americans could only put
            > > out privateers and
            > > >pirates.
            >
            >
            > Any particular reason why american privateers were
            > pirates and British and Canadian privateers were not??
            > Halifax produced some very successful privateers in
            > both the AWI and 1812, you know.
            > It would be very sad if the only account of Canadian
            > privateers was the lyrics to "Barrett's Privateers" -
            > does some very brave men no service.
            > >
            > > Kind of a shame too. There were plenty of ships 'o
            > > the line building, and
            > > easily *could* have been ready for the war. In 1815
            > > a lot of ships were
            > > finally completed, all too late to have any effect.
            > > But didn't both sides
            > > have a massive SOL on Lake Ontario? Something in
            > > the nature of a 100
            > > gunner?
            >
            > Yeo had a 112 gun ship building (among others), the
            > Americans had a 120 building (among others). While
            > Roosevelt states that the New Orleans was a 74,
            > Chappelle gives the dimensions and guns carried, and
            > clearly shows that it was much bigger. A photo of the
            > hulk of the New Orleans up on blocks in thye early
            > 1880's exists - if you like, I can send you a jpg of
            > it back-channel.
            >
            > Fitz
            >

            The British first-rate St. Lawrence was in commission on Lake Ontario
            in Oct. 1814. Wolfe and Canada were in frame.

            Doug Jones
            >
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          • Fitzhugh MacCrae
            ... The Saranac Bridge used to be the longest uncovered bridge in New York, 212 feet long by 18 feet wide. assuming they packed it shouolder to shoulder, each
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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              --- Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
              > . Without the support of Downie's squadron to
              > provide
              > defellade fire support, it would have been a
              > slaughter.
              >
              > Fitz these men had been under more intense fire than
              > this in Europe, thyey would over came the artillery
              > and pushed on.

              The Saranac Bridge used to be the longest uncovered
              bridge in New York, 212 feet long by 18 feet wide.
              assuming they packed it shouolder to shoulder, each
              rank is only 6 men wide. The bridge is being raked by
              heavy cannonfire (figure one round per 90 seconds for
              a 24 pdr, use that as an average as the heavy guns
              included both 32's and 18's as well as 24's) My map
              (photocopy of the one at West Point) shows 19 heavy
              guns that can bear within an arc of 30 degrees,
              centered on the bridge. All 19 guns are within 500
              yards of the south end of the bridge. This works out
              as one heavy shot hitting a tightly packed column of
              men from the one angle that will cause the most
              casualties about every 5 seconds.
              The math is simple - the bridge is a deathtrap. Since
              it was made of wood and all military stores had
              already moved south of the river, one cannot but
              assume that the bridge was left up for a good
              reason.Powers isn't going to get across with any
              substantial forces there.
              Lets go over to Robinson's brigade.
              Once Robinson pushes aside the 4000 or so militia in
              the woods (do-able) he comes out on the flats on the
              south side of the river.
              So far, so good.
              Now he has to assault uphill across about 350 yards of
              open terrain to reach what appears to be the main
              American line - 6 redoubts and small forts on the
              ridge crest, each one within comfortable range of the
              next.
              Back a little on the reverse slope (I make it an
              average of 30 yards) are the earthworks, connecting
              each strong point. The six strongpoints have a total
              of 31 heavy guns, including three 18 pdr columbiad
              shell guns. The earthworks connecting them contain 17
              field guns, probably mostly 6's, with a scattering of
              12's. The defense line is held by mostly regulars.
              Assume that most of the heavy guns are distracted by
              Powers doing a sacrifice play at the bridge, and thus
              19 guns do not fire at Robinson's brigade at all
              during their approach.
              That means 13 heavy guns are able to shoot at Robinson
              from anywhere from about 1000 yards out to 30 yards,
              with the fire from the fieldguns masked due to the
              military crest being in the way.
              Keep in mind that the earthworks that connected the
              strongpoints are not visible from the British line of
              sight, because they are back on the reverse slope.
              Assume powers's sacrifice is not for naught, and two
              thirds of Robinson's brigade actually makes it up to
              the crest....
              Where they discover that they are standing 30 yards in
              front of earthworks manned by a brigade of regulars,
              with lots of field guns loaded with cannister.
              The smart ones will put themselves on the north side
              of that crest as fast as they can.
              Unfortunately, they are in a prime position to take
              heavy flanking fire from the nearest strongpoints
              there.
              Assumingt that Prevost was smart enough to support
              Robinson (and this takes a great stretch of
              imagination), they might eventually bull their way
              throughh the line somewhere. Of course, they have to
              take each and every redoubt, or anyone who bulled
              through is caught in a crossfire....
              Assume that they do, at the usual butcher's bill for
              that kind of fighting (assume Prevost is a genius and
              the follow-on brigade is bring scaling ladders so that
              they can storm the redoubts - and if you get that far,
              write me back channel with the name of your pusher,
              'cause he has some really good s__t).
              Assume all of the above - the British break the line,
              take all of the redoubts, burn the supplies, and march
              home claiming a victory.

              A few more victories like that, and we could have
              moved the new US capital to Montreal!!
              When Robinson and Powers said that the direct attack
              approach was practical, they were playing the same
              time-honoured game of all sub-commanders ever since
              Ugghh the Neanderthal took some of his buddies and
              tried to run those upstart Cro-Magnon out of the
              neighborhood.
              "We coulda done it if the Boss hadn't
              yaddayaddayadda".
              This is called CYA, and it is an ancient military
              tradition. Even Elting said that Robinson was talking
              for posterity, not reality.



              "...and every victory is followed by a retreat..."

              Fitz


              =====
              Founder, Pagan Liberation Antique Twinkies Collectors Front and Marching Chorale

              "Fluff Bunnies - The OTHER White Meat"

              "Come back, Guy Faulkes - all's forgiven. We'll leave a light on in the Capitol basement for you. . . ."

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            • Rob Taylor
              ... A few more victories like that, and we could have moved the new US capital to Montreal!! You have not accounted for the possibility that the Americans
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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                --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
                A few more victories like that, and we could have
                moved the new US capital to Montreal!!

                You have not accounted for the possibility that the
                Americans might break and run, seeing over 10,000 well
                trained veteran redcoats marhing at them might have
                unnerved them. Seeing how the British soldiers
                themselves did not think it would be a hard position
                to take, or that the American force in front of them
                was as tough as the French soldiers they had already
                faced in Europe. At Bladensburgh there was a bridge
                covered by an artillery piece. Did a lot of damage
                too. There were only 5,000 recoats there, and Barney
                and his men were the only ones that stuck around to
                see how it all turned out. Considering what happened
                there I suspect you would not be moving your capital
                to Montreal anytime soon. I respect your opinion, I
                just don't agree with it.

                Rob Taylor

                Rob Taylor
                >
                > --- Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
                > > . Without the support of Downie's squadron to
                > > provide
                > > defellade fire support, it would have been a
                > > slaughter.
                > >
                > > Fitz these men had been under more intense fire
                > than
                > > this in Europe, thyey would over came the
                > artillery
                > > and pushed on.
                >
                > The Saranac Bridge used to be the longest uncovered
                > bridge in New York, 212 feet long by 18 feet wide.
                > assuming they packed it shouolder to shoulder, each
                > rank is only 6 men wide. The bridge is being raked
                > by
                > heavy cannonfire (figure one round per 90 seconds
                > for
                > a 24 pdr, use that as an average as the heavy guns
                > included both 32's and 18's as well as 24's) My map
                > (photocopy of the one at West Point) shows 19 heavy
                > guns that can bear within an arc of 30 degrees,
                > centered on the bridge. All 19 guns are within 500
                > yards of the south end of the bridge. This works out
                > as one heavy shot hitting a tightly packed column
                > of
                > men from the one angle that will cause the most
                > casualties about every 5 seconds.
                > The math is simple - the bridge is a deathtrap.
                > Since
                > it was made of wood and all military stores had
                > already moved south of the river, one cannot but
                > assume that the bridge was left up for a good
                > reason.Powers isn't going to get across with any
                > substantial forces there.
                > Lets go over to Robinson's brigade.
                > Once Robinson pushes aside the 4000 or so militia in
                > the woods (do-able) he comes out on the flats on the
                > south side of the river.
                > So far, so good.
                > Now he has to assault uphill across about 350 yards
                > of
                > open terrain to reach what appears to be the main
                > American line - 6 redoubts and small forts on the
                > ridge crest, each one within comfortable range of
                > the
                > next.
                > Back a little on the reverse slope (I make it an
                > average of 30 yards) are the earthworks, connecting
                > each strong point. The six strongpoints have a total
                > of 31 heavy guns, including three 18 pdr columbiad
                > shell guns. The earthworks connecting them contain
                > 17
                > field guns, probably mostly 6's, with a scattering
                > of
                > 12's. The defense line is held by mostly regulars.
                > Assume that most of the heavy guns are distracted by
                >
                > Powers doing a sacrifice play at the bridge, and
                > thus
                > 19 guns do not fire at Robinson's brigade at all
                > during their approach.
                > That means 13 heavy guns are able to shoot at
                > Robinson
                > from anywhere from about 1000 yards out to 30 yards,
                > with the fire from the fieldguns masked due to the
                > military crest being in the way.
                > Keep in mind that the earthworks that connected the
                > strongpoints are not visible from the British line
                > of
                > sight, because they are back on the reverse slope.
                > Assume powers's sacrifice is not for naught, and two
                > thirds of Robinson's brigade actually makes it up to
                > the crest....
                > Where they discover that they are standing 30 yards
                > in
                > front of earthworks manned by a brigade of regulars,
                > with lots of field guns loaded with cannister.
                > The smart ones will put themselves on the north side
                > of that crest as fast as they can.
                > Unfortunately, they are in a prime position to take
                > heavy flanking fire from the nearest strongpoints
                > there.
                > Assumingt that Prevost was smart enough to support
                > Robinson (and this takes a great stretch of
                > imagination), they might eventually bull their way
                > throughh the line somewhere. Of course, they have to
                > take each and every redoubt, or anyone who bulled
                > through is caught in a crossfire....
                > Assume that they do, at the usual butcher's bill for
                > that kind of fighting (assume Prevost is a genius
                > and
                > the follow-on brigade is bring scaling ladders so
                > that
                > they can storm the redoubts - and if you get that
                > far,
                > write me back channel with the name of your pusher,
                > 'cause he has some really good s__t).
                > Assume all of the above - the British break the
                > line,
                > take all of the redoubts, burn the supplies, and
                > march
                > home claiming a victory.
                >
                > A few more victories like that, and we could have
                > moved the new US capital to Montreal!!
                > When Robinson and Powers said that the direct attack
                > approach was practical, they were playing the same
                > time-honoured game of all sub-commanders ever since
                > Ugghh the Neanderthal took some of his buddies and
                > tried to run those upstart Cro-Magnon out of the
                > neighborhood.
                > "We coulda done it if the Boss hadn't
                > yaddayaddayadda".
                > This is called CYA, and it is an ancient military
                > tradition. Even Elting said that Robinson was
                > talking
                > for posterity, not reality.
                >
                >
                >
                > "...and every victory is followed by a retreat..."
                >
                > Fitz
                >
                >
                > =====
                > Founder, Pagan Liberation Antique Twinkies
                > Collectors Front and Marching Chorale
                >
                > "Fluff Bunnies - The OTHER White Meat"
                >
                > "Come back, Guy Faulkes - all's forgiven. We'll
                > leave a light on in the Capitol basement for you. .
                > . ."
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from
                > anywhere!
                > http://mail.yahoo.com/
                >


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              • Fitzhugh MacCrae
                ... At Plattsburg there was one gun (I think a 6pdr) manned by militia who didn t even know the proper drill. When captured it was muzzle in the dirt, trail in
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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                  --- Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
                  > A few more victories like that, and we could have
                  > moved the new US capital to Montreal!!
                  >
                  > You have not accounted for the possibility that the
                  > Americans might break and run, seeing over 10,000
                  > well
                  > trained veteran redcoats marhing at them might have
                  > unnerved them. Seeing how the British soldiers
                  > themselves did not think it would be a hard position
                  > to take, or that the American force in front of them
                  > was as tough as the French soldiers they had already
                  > faced in Europe. At Bladensburgh there was a bridge
                  > covered by an artillery piece. Did a lot of damage
                  > too. There were only 5,000 recoats there, and Barney
                  > and his men were the only ones that stuck around to
                  > see how it all turned out. Considering what happened
                  > there I suspect you would not be moving your capital
                  > to Montreal anytime soon. I respect your opinion, I
                  > just don't agree with it.
                  >
                  > Rob Taylor
                  At Plattsburg there was one gun (I think a 6pdr)
                  manned by militia who didn't even know the proper
                  drill. When captured it was muzzle in the dirt, trail
                  in the air - the gunners had forgotten to put the
                  powder bag in before ramming in the ball. Upon
                  discovering their mistake, they tried to get the ball
                  out by tipping the gun forward, where it got stuck.
                  I've often imagined that some of the British
                  casualties were from men who died laughing at this
                  grade B comedy.
                  At Plattsburg, Macomb wisely chose to send the two
                  brigades of militia off into the woods, while manning
                  the fortified line with regulars. He had an
                  extraordinary artillery advantage, the British had to
                  advance through bottlenecks just to get to the killing
                  zones, and then hike 350 yards uphill against a
                  defensive line most of which they couldn't even see
                  and thus know was there until they hit the military
                  crest. Of such situations are great military disasters
                  made.
                  As far as the regulars running, I very much doubt it.
                  Macomb's people were just as well drilled as Brown's
                  (Plattsburg was where the other camp of instruction
                  had been established, run by Izard, who was a graduate
                  of a French military school) and if neccesary would
                  have died in place just like Scott's brigade at
                  Lundy's Lane. The fact that these were Wellington's
                  veterens was something that seems to have impressed
                  nobody but the Maryland militia. A British offi9cer
                  who had served in both Spain and the Niagara later
                  said that fighting against American regulars was more
                  fierce, much more bloody, and infinately worse than
                  anything experienced in Spain.
                  If Prevost attempted the attack anyway, it would not
                  only have broken his army, the results would have
                  broken England's heart.
                  The one point in the whole mess that I find
                  hysterically funny is that one the British side of the
                  river, there was a road that headed west. A good road,
                  much better than the one he had just come down. It
                  went through the Aderondacks, and came out at
                  Sackett's Harbor on the undefended landward side.
                  If anyone - Prevost, Powers, Robinson, whoever - had
                  thought to ask where the road went, they could have
                  won the war in a month. At that moment, Sackett's
                  Harbor was protected by a single brigade of regulars,
                  some militia, a volunteer light infantry regiment, a
                  dragoon depot squadron, several hundred replacements
                  and recruits waiting to be sorted out and sent to
                  other regiments, and the naval personnel. They
                  landward defenses had been started, but would not be
                  completed until December, 1814. Izard's division had
                  already left for the Niagara. The door was wide open,
                  nobody was expecting an attack, and the route from
                  Sackett's Harbor suth was completely undefended. There
                  would have been nothing between Prevost and New York
                  City than some brittle NY militia.

                  And nobody thought to ask, "By the way, my good man,
                  where does that road go?"

                  Nope - under the circumstances, they would have taken
                  a beating if they had tried to force the river. Not
                  because there was anything lacking in the men, but
                  because their commanders were either too ignorant
                  (Prevost) or too arrogant (Robinson, Powers, et al) to
                  bother to examine all their options.
                  Drummond, Ross, Packenham, Gibbs and Lambert would
                  have never made that mistake, though Keane might have,
                  and after Chippawa Riall really didn't want to mix it
                  with American regulars again, and so would have not
                  been a position to make the mistakes that were made at
                  Plattsburg.

                  Fitz

                  =====
                  Founder, Pagan Liberation Antique Twinkies Collectors Front and Marching Chorale

                  "Fluff Bunnies - The OTHER White Meat"

                  "Come back, Guy Faulkes - all's forgiven. We'll leave a light on in the Capitol basement for you. . . ."

                  __________________________________________________
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                • easeufe@aol.com
                  In a message dated 9/1/00 2:43:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... My apologies. You were right Mike. The Columbia was a 44 and was being built when she was
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 1, 2000
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                    In a message dated 9/1/00 2:43:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                    mmathews@... writes:

                    > I *think* this is where the Columbia was burned IIRC, and she was rated a
                    > 44. Could easily be wrong.
                    >
                    My apologies. You were right Mike. The Columbia was a 44 and was
                    being built when she was burned. She was waiting her copper and upper
                    works to be finished.

                    Ed Seufert, LCpl
                    1812 Royal Marines
                  • Rob Taylor
                    Like I said before Fitz, I respect your opinion,But I do not agree with it. Also I believe that the British officers who had served overseas were well aware of
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 2, 2000
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                      Like I said before Fitz, I respect your opinion,But I
                      do not agree with it. Also I believe that the British
                      officers who had served overseas were well aware of
                      what they faced on the other side of the river at
                      Plattsburgh. What saved Plattsburgh pure and simple is
                      Prevost's decision to retreat back into Canada. Mind
                      you, had he let the force attack they still would have
                      had to retreat, but only after winning the victory on
                      land. Nope - under the circumstances, to assume that
                      the American force at Plattsburgh would have
                      thoroughly beaten the British force is quite frankly,
                      assuming alot.

                      I enjoyed your post,
                      Rob Taylor

                      --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- Fitzhugh MacCrae <alaidh@...> wrote:
                      > > A few more victories like that, and we could have
                      > > moved the new US capital to Montreal!!
                      > >
                      > > You have not accounted for the possibility that
                      > the
                      > > Americans might break and run, seeing over 10,000
                      > > well
                      > > trained veteran redcoats marhing at them might
                      > have
                      > > unnerved them. Seeing how the British soldiers
                      > > themselves did not think it would be a hard
                      > position
                      > > to take, or that the American force in front of
                      > them
                      > > was as tough as the French soldiers they had
                      > already
                      > > faced in Europe. At Bladensburgh there was a
                      > bridge
                      > > covered by an artillery piece. Did a lot of damage
                      > > too. There were only 5,000 recoats there, and
                      > Barney
                      > > and his men were the only ones that stuck around
                      > to
                      > > see how it all turned out. Considering what
                      > happened
                      > > there I suspect you would not be moving your
                      > capital
                      > > to Montreal anytime soon. I respect your opinion,
                      > I
                      > > just don't agree with it.
                      > >
                      > > Rob Taylor
                      > At Plattsburg there was one gun (I think a 6pdr)
                      > manned by militia who didn't even know the proper
                      > drill. When captured it was muzzle in the dirt,
                      > trail
                      > in the air - the gunners had forgotten to put the
                      > powder bag in before ramming in the ball. Upon
                      > discovering their mistake, they tried to get the
                      > ball
                      > out by tipping the gun forward, where it got stuck.
                      > I've often imagined that some of the British
                      > casualties were from men who died laughing at this
                      > grade B comedy.
                      > At Plattsburg, Macomb wisely chose to send the two
                      > brigades of militia off into the woods, while
                      > manning
                      > the fortified line with regulars. He had an
                      > extraordinary artillery advantage, the British had
                      > to
                      > advance through bottlenecks just to get to the
                      > killing
                      > zones, and then hike 350 yards uphill against a
                      > defensive line most of which they couldn't even see
                      > and thus know was there until they hit the military
                      > crest. Of such situations are great military
                      > disasters
                      > made.
                      > As far as the regulars running, I very much doubt
                      > it.
                      > Macomb's people were just as well drilled as Brown's
                      > (Plattsburg was where the other camp of instruction
                      > had been established, run by Izard, who was a
                      > graduate
                      > of a French military school) and if neccesary would
                      > have died in place just like Scott's brigade at
                      > Lundy's Lane. The fact that these were Wellington's
                      > veterens was something that seems to have impressed
                      > nobody but the Maryland militia. A British offi9cer
                      > who had served in both Spain and the Niagara later
                      > said that fighting against American regulars was
                      > more
                      > fierce, much more bloody, and infinately worse than
                      > anything experienced in Spain.
                      > If Prevost attempted the attack anyway, it would not
                      > only have broken his army, the results would have
                      > broken England's heart.
                      > The one point in the whole mess that I find
                      > hysterically funny is that one the British side of
                      > the
                      > river, there was a road that headed west. A good
                      > road,
                      > much better than the one he had just come down. It
                      > went through the Aderondacks, and came out at
                      > Sackett's Harbor on the undefended landward side.
                      > If anyone - Prevost, Powers, Robinson, whoever - had
                      > thought to ask where the road went, they could have
                      > won the war in a month. At that moment, Sackett's
                      > Harbor was protected by a single brigade of
                      > regulars,
                      > some militia, a volunteer light infantry regiment, a
                      > dragoon depot squadron, several hundred replacements
                      > and recruits waiting to be sorted out and sent to
                      > other regiments, and the naval personnel. They
                      > landward defenses had been started, but would not be
                      > completed until December, 1814. Izard's division had
                      > already left for the Niagara. The door was wide
                      > open,
                      > nobody was expecting an attack, and the route from
                      > Sackett's Harbor suth was completely undefended.
                      > There
                      > would have been nothing between Prevost and New York
                      > City than some brittle NY militia.
                      >
                      > And nobody thought to ask, "By the way, my good man,
                      > where does that road go?"
                      >
                      > Nope - under the circumstances, they would have
                      > taken
                      > a beating if they had tried to force the river. Not
                      > because there was anything lacking in the men, but
                      > because their commanders were either too ignorant
                      > (Prevost) or too arrogant (Robinson, Powers, et al)
                      > to
                      > bother to examine all their options.
                      > Drummond, Ross, Packenham, Gibbs and Lambert would
                      > have never made that mistake, though Keane might
                      > have,
                      > and after Chippawa Riall really didn't want to mix
                      > it
                      > with American regulars again, and so would have not
                      > been a position to make the mistakes that were made
                      > at
                      > Plattsburg.
                      >
                      > Fitz
                      >
                      > =====
                      > Founder, Pagan Liberation Antique Twinkies
                      > Collectors Front and Marching Chorale
                      >
                      > "Fluff Bunnies - The OTHER White Meat"
                      >
                      > "Come back, Guy Faulkes - all's forgiven. We'll
                      > leave a light on in the Capitol basement for you. .
                      > . ."
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
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                    • Dave Hill
                      ... Hear, hear. The toadie Americans could only put out privateers and pirates. Having recently returned from holidays and spent almost a week catching up on
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 6, 2000
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                        --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, mmathews@V... wrote:

                        Hear, hear. The toadie Americans could only put out privateers and
                        pirates.


                        Having recently returned from holidays and spent almost a week
                        catching up on the various discussions (over 500 messages), I would
                        like to comment on one discussion.

                        It seems to be generally accepted that the U.S. Navy had little
                        difficulty gaining recruits. It would appear that the Navy had
                        difficulty competing with the Army which was offering bounties that
                        eventually reached $124.00 and 320 acres of land. It appears that
                        even experienced sailors joined the Army for the bounty. The Navy had
                        even more difficulty recruiting for the lake squadrons and the
                        gunboat flotillas. The Navy didn't start paying bounties until
                        1814.

                        The major competition for men was from privateers. The cruises were
                        much shorter (two or three months as compared to a one year
                        enlistment in the Navy) and the pay was potentially much higher. Two
                        examples are, the Yankee out of Bristol RI which captured eight ships
                        worth $300,000.00, and the Rossie out of Baltimore (Capt. Joshua
                        Barney)which captured eighteen vessels worth close to $1,500,000,00.
                        On the negative side is the fact that the RN captured about 150
                        privateers in the first eight months of the war. The U.S. Navy
                        captured about 50 merchant ships during the war, while in the first
                        six months privateers captured about 450 ships.
                        Privateers didn't fight other privateers or warships if it could
                        be avoided. They were in the business for profit not glory.

                        Dave.
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