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Re: 1812 vs Napoleonic events

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  • Allan and Rosemary
    ... Tim, I have to disagree with you there about the authenticity of the 200th anniversary events in Europe. At Fishguard, the European units turned up in
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 2 10:18 AM
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      BritcomHMP@... wrote:
      >
      > From: BritcomHMP@...
      > >
      > Nicely put Mike, As you are no doubt aware the 200th anniversary events in
      > Europe are incredibly authentic. They will not even permit women who can be
      > recognized as such in the ranks and an 1803 habit vest may not be worn at a
      > 1799 event (even though to the uninitiated there is no difference). However
      > for the every day events we are more than happy to accommodate units that want
      > to join in.

      Tim, I have to disagree with you there about the authenticity of the
      200th anniversary events in Europe. At Fishguard, the European units
      turned up in period kit for 1797 - the British re-enactors mostly wore
      what they normally wore, including 1815 uniforms, and I believe the same
      happened at Malta last year. I know that in the end the time period had
      to be expanded to 1803 to allow for the stovepipe shakos that most of
      the Brits wear. At Fishguard I overheard someone ask 'What uniform are
      they wearing?' on seeing our 1797 kit, and hearing Trevor Horn of the
      Royal Artillery Band reply 'That's the correct uniform for this period'
      - that's how rare the period uniform was at the event! And another
      regiment asked 'Would our regiment have worn a uniform like that?'! I
      don't think it even occurred to them that their uniform had changed,
      ever! And I think that even you would have to admit that Waterloo is a
      bit of a free for all!;-)

      As for the subject of War of 1812 vs Napoleonic we tried to start a War
      of 1812 society in the UK, with the 23rd Foot changing to US uniforms
      for the purpose. The only interest we got was a British regiment asking
      us to double as French at one of their events, and someone else telling
      us to sell the idea of the US uniform by saying that it could double as
      Belgian for Waterloo, which made the whole exercise pointless! So I
      agree with Betsy on that point.

      I think that banning a type of event from a site because 'it never
      happened there' is extreme. We have been refused events at sites because
      Napoleonic 'isn't in keeping with the period of the site' (CADW - who
      own many of Wales's castles is one of the main culprits here) which is
      almost like denying that a particular period of history ever existed!
      And yet other sites like Battle Abbey has had anything from Romans to
      World War 2 fighting on it with great success! I don't believe in mixing
      periods - I saw a Napoleonic regiment fighting an American Civil War
      unit at an event last year which looked ridiculous- but I don't see
      anything wrong with keeping theatres of war separate, and as many people
      belong to one or more groups anyway, is it such a hardship to acquire
      another uniform (or adaptations) to do an event properly? If we were
      able to attend an 1812 event in America we would not feel happy
      attending as the 23rd Foot and would change our uniform accordingly, as
      we have done when an event has called for it. There is, I feel, a
      difference between a regiment not being present at a battle, and not
      being present on an entire continent!

      One last thought and some extreme examples:
      If you were re-enacting the Normandy landings of 1944, how would you
      explain a group of Japanese soldiers on the battlefield - observers? Or
      Sepoys at Quebec 1759? Or a Royal Artillery Elephant Battery at Yorktown
      1781? Hey, now that's an idea! ;-))) But you see my point - armies of
      the same periods, but different theatres of war.

      Ducking for cover
      Rosemary Jones

      BTW - have you seen the size of a flashlight that takes an elephant
      battery?
    • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
      In a message dated 3/2/99 11:06:18 AM Central Standard Time, mmathews@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU writes:
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 2 11:45 AM
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        In a message dated 3/2/99 11:06:18 AM Central Standard Time,
        mmathews@... writes:

        << Even with our crowned "N"s on the tails? I have often thought of going,
        New Orleans being eminantly preferable to Minnesota in winter. We have
        shako covers, but they all have a big "21" on them. Perhaps we'll need to
        talk more as it nears. >>

        I suppose that they could be explained away by being newly arrived from France
        at a deep discount because the King is trying to get rid of everything to do
        with Nap. :-)

        Of course of you come as Grenadiers just cut out a felt grenade and stitch it
        over the 'N'. Although we know that Plauche's Battn had Fusiliers, Grenadiers
        and Chasseurs there is no actual example (other than possibly 2 wrecked
        shakos) surviving. Not only that all the orders were, of course, given in
        French!

        Cheers

        Tim
      • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
        In a message dated 3/2/99 1:18:54 PM Central Standard Time, allan@lightbob.freeserve.co.uk writes:
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 2 12:02 PM
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          In a message dated 3/2/99 1:18:54 PM Central Standard Time,
          allan@... writes:

          << Tim, I have to disagree with you there about the authenticity of the
          200th anniversary events in Europe. At Fishguard, the European units
          turned up in period kit for 1797 - the British re-enactors mostly wore
          what they normally wore, including 1815 uniforms, and I believe the same
          happened at Malta last year. I know that in the end the time period had
          to be expanded to 1803 to allow for the stovepipe shakos that most of
          the Brits wear. At Fishguard I overheard someone ask 'What uniform are
          they wearing?' on seeing our 1797 kit, and hearing Trevor Horn of the
          Royal Artillery Band reply 'That's the correct uniform for this period'
          - that's how rare the period uniform was at the event! And another
          regiment asked 'Would our regiment have worn a uniform like that?'! I
          don't think it even occurred to them that their uniform had changed,
          ever! And I think that even you would have to admit that Waterloo is a
          bit of a free for all!;-)
          >>

          Rosemary, thank you sooooooo much for muddying the waters! :-)

          I was actually referring to the rules used by the European Union of Re-
          enactment Societies and I was very careful to state for 200th Anniversary
          events which will only include Waterloo in 2015.
          Now I am quite aware that the general view of the British re-enactor is "I've
          worn this for the last 10 years, why should I get a new one?" But there are
          those of us who have fought the uphill battle to try to get correct kit used.

          The fact that some units might turn up incorrectly attired has to be faced and
          if no one is going to put out the info beforehand or tell people that (for a
          particularly important event) "Sorry you can't take part dressed like that",
          then one must expect people to take liberties.

          Cheers

          Tim
        • Allan and Rosemary
          ... Oops! Sorry Tim. I quite agree with you. When Malta was first discussed the Europeans insisted on only 1798 kit but after a few British units threatened to
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 2 2:07 PM
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            BritcomHMP@... wrote:
            >
            > From: BritcomHMP@...
            > >
            > Rosemary, thank you sooooooo much for muddying the waters! :-)
            >
            > I was actually referring to the rules used by the European Union of Re-
            > enactment Societies and I was very careful to state for 200th Anniversary
            > events which will only include Waterloo in 2015.
            > Now I am quite aware that the general view of the British re-enactor is "I've
            > worn this for the last 10 years, why should I get a new one?" But there are
            > those of us who have fought the uphill battle to try to get correct kit used.
            >
            > The fact that some units might turn up incorrectly attired has to be faced and
            > if no one is going to put out the info beforehand or tell people that (for a
            > particularly important event) "Sorry you can't take part dressed like that",
            > then one must expect people to take liberties.
            >
            > Cheers
            >
            > Tim
            >
            Oops! Sorry Tim. I quite agree with you. When Malta was first discussed
            the Europeans insisted on only 1798 kit but after a few British units
            threatened to boycott the event the rules were relaxed. You know how I
            feel about the NA and their lack of co-operation on these events is
            shameful. We feel nothing but admiration for the Europeans and their
            policy for following the timeline. We did some filming with one of the
            these units (and shamefully I've forgotten their name) and they told us
            how they were planning to change their uniforms to suit each anniversary
            battle - how many British re-enactors will say that! That's why I
            emphasised the point that WE changed our kit, so why couldn't others? As
            you say, it's an uphill struggle but everyone knew well in advance that
            these events were coming up, so what was the excuse?

            Tim, all I can say is sorry if I confused things but 'Keep fighting the
            Good Fight!'

            Rosemary
          • probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold
            Hi List, Methinks the worms have escaped from the can I opened.... Perhaps I should add that I don t actually disrespect ANYONE in the re-enactment hobby for
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 2 5:07 PM
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              Hi List,
              Methinks the worms have escaped from the can I opened....

              Perhaps I should add that I don't actually disrespect ANYONE in the
              re-enactment hobby for doing something that I PERSONALLY think isn't
              "appropriate". My nose is not so long that I feel ONLY North Am. wars
              should be portrayed on NA soil....it's just that, as Rob H put it, too, War
              of 1812 needs all the help it can get and I think a large group of
              accurately-uniformed soldiers makes for a much better public impression.
              Call it an inferiority complex if you will. I still feel that somehow,
              Napoleonic guys or groups feel "their" war should automatically be OK and
              accepted at War of 1812 sites because it was bigger and "more important" in
              a global perspective. Also, although I can claim experience at only two
              Napoleonic events in N.A. (mea culpa---our unit DID go as
              themselves...RNR---nowhere near Wellington at anytime...but these ones were
              billed as Napoleonic-era events as opposed to actual recreations of
              Napoleonic War battles), it seems people who do Napoleonic usually portray
              officers and the like--all very glamourous when you get to put on all that
              gold trim and feathers, etc. It just doesn't seem to FIT at a War of 1812
              event to have all those officer-types wandering around, where, IMHO, things
              should be a little "grimier" or "less flamboyant" for a good overall
              picture. North America was, at the time, afterall akin to the MOON.

              OK---I would also like to make clear that I did not mean to *ruffle* any
              of those feathers, either!!! I put my thoughts on the subject out into the
              ether and certainly meant no offense to any person out there. This list
              contains one hell of a lot of pride...and I think we need to tone that down
              a little if any discussions of thoughts or ideals is to take place. We can
              all joke, but then, when an opinion comes across that you don't like, and
              you spray sarcasm across the screen like caustic acid, it's a big turn-off.
              TIme and time again, it's been said...we are all FRIENDS here----the 1812
              hobby needs as much support as it can get and cutting off our own noses does
              nothing for us. I myself promise to read a posting and then breathe deeply
              once or twice, read it again, breathe some more, and TRY not to reply in a
              manner that is overly insulting to anyone. People's ideas and opinions AND
              pride in their own hobbies/units should be welcome here, but the petty
              sarcasm isn't really necessary to get that across, is it? Maybe the long
              winter away from gunpowder has gotten us ALL a little edgy...

              BTW---I DID know about the tens of thousands of Canucks who fought
              and died for the US armies during ACW. I just added the thought because it
              is the same symptom of the "War of When???" disease we have here in Canada.
              I'd wager more people up here would recognize Lee or Sherman or Grant before
              the venerable Sir Brock.
              Alright, that's enough outta me....

              Lynda Leopold
              aka Scrubbietta,
              following the drum of the
              Royal Newfoundland Regiment, Lt Coy,
              Harrow Ontario
            • NINETY3RD@xxx.xxx
              Aha! OK, so I was starting to wonder, just what some folk meant when they kept saying Napoleonic reenactors. I wondered if it meant those portraying French,
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 3 6:56 AM
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                Aha!

                OK, so I was starting to wonder, just what some folk meant when they kept
                saying "Napoleonic" reenactors. I wondered if it meant those portraying
                French, or Prussian, or maybe someone doing a Brit unit that never served in
                North America during the time period.

                But it appears it means any who ALSO do Napoleonic as well as 1812.

                As I am one of those who wears "feathers" (hmmm...Highlander, not many others
                wore many feathers if one does not count plumes and hackles on shakos) and,
                well, it ain't "gold" trim (it's silver in our regiment but it's the idea
                anyway) I suppose I should point out (for those who never bother to travel to
                New Orleans - an 1812 event, by the way and don't get me started on that
                discussion again - the unit we portray, and I point out WE (as in plural, it
                ain't just me in *my* feathers and trim) as in the 93rd SHRoFLHU, was indeed
                at this particular 1812 battle. There was a 2nd battalion stationed in
                Newfoundland during this 1812 conflict as well.

                As for all of us who "do" Napoleonic usually being officers (our 20 odd 93rd
                members may take exception to that, as would all those in the ranks in the
                French units, the 95th, the new 42nd, etc), I can only surmise this means one
                or two other persons who portray general staff. Well! We all know there was
                no such thing as general staff in the 1812 war, yes? And I mean anyhow, how
                could a staff uniform worn of the type in Europe ever be used over here? I
                mean, there would be the 1812 general staff uniform instead of the Napoleonic
                general staff uniform wouldn't there? (someone quick misinterpret that last
                sarcastic one and tell me in serious detail how I have botched it...). But I
                wonder what British officers *should* be wearing at an 1812 event. I guess I
                just have not seen the Osprey book on 1812 British officer uniforms as opposed
                to Napoleonic British officer uniforms. Oooooo! I know! They don't have mud
                and dirt in Europe! That's it! Silly me!

                Well. (he said with jam on his face and rolly polly tummy) I think the next
                time we all go to Mississinewa we all should go ONLY as those who actually
                fought that battle. Hey -- I can still wear my feathers! I just need to stick
                them in my hair and paint half my face vermilion and wear a breechclout!
                That'll also be the hairiest Native anyone has ever seen! Someone quick
                inform Martin of our decision! He'll really be thrilled!

                OK, Larry, your poem was the best answer so far-- and I'll try to behave and
                play nice with the other children now.

                Benton - I am a sarcastic SOB so get over it - Jennings
                http://hometown.aol.com/ninety3rd
              • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
                In a message dated 3/3/99 9:00:43 AM Central Standard Time, NINETY3RD@aol.com writes:
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 3 7:44 AM
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                  In a message dated 3/3/99 9:00:43 AM Central Standard Time, NINETY3RD@...
                  writes:

                  << As for all of us who "do" Napoleonic usually being officers (our 20 odd
                  93rd
                  members may take exception to that, as would all those in the ranks in the
                  French units, the 95th, the new 42nd, etc), I can only surmise this means one
                  or two other persons who portray general staff. Well! We all know there was
                  no such thing as general staff in the 1812 war, yes? And I mean anyhow, how
                  could a staff uniform worn of the type in Europe ever be used over here? I
                  mean, there would be the 1812 general staff uniform instead of the Napoleonic
                  general staff uniform wouldn't there? >>


                  Quite Benton, I was beginning to wonder if actually being able to turn out in
                  various orders of dress was not the norm in the war of 1812. I personally
                  turned out in at Missisenewa in undress Staff uniform on Saturday, embroidered
                  full dress coat with stockings and shoes for the dance and then blue frock
                  coat when the weather turned nasty next day. Perhaps this kind of variation is
                  considered too ' Napoleonic'.

                  But then there were you with trews for the battle and kilt in the evening.
                  Oooo too Napoleonic for words! ;-)


                  Cheers

                  Tim
                • Larry Lozon
                  ... Your Grace: Great for mucking about on your estate. But when engaging the enemy, your finest, Sir. Crimson, gold, danglies, boots, my God man, a member of
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 3 7:51 AM
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                    >and then blue frock coat.<

                    Your Grace: Great for mucking about
                    on your estate. But when engaging the
                    enemy, your finest, Sir. Crimson, gold,
                    danglies, boots, my God man, a member
                    of the aristocracy.

                    Your Humble servant
                    Larry Lozon
                    PS: excuse me I got carried away!

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: BritcomHMP@... <BritcomHMP@...>
                    To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
                    Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 10:39 AM
                    Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: 1812 vs Napoleonic events


                    >From: BritcomHMP@...
                    >
                    >In a message dated 3/3/99 9:00:43 AM Central Standard Time,
                    NINETY3RD@...
                    >writes:
                    >
                    ><< As for all of us who "do" Napoleonic usually being officers (our 20 odd
                    >93rd
                    > members may take exception to that, as would all those in the ranks in the
                    > French units, the 95th, the new 42nd, etc), I can only surmise this means
                    one
                    > or two other persons who portray general staff. Well! We all know there
                    was
                    > no such thing as general staff in the 1812 war, yes? And I mean anyhow,
                    how
                    > could a staff uniform worn of the type in Europe ever be used over here? I
                    > mean, there would be the 1812 general staff uniform instead of the
                    Napoleonic
                    > general staff uniform wouldn't there? >>
                    >
                    >
                    >Quite Benton, I was beginning to wonder if actually being able to turn out
                    in
                    >various orders of dress was not the norm in the war of 1812. I personally
                    >turned out in at Missisenewa in undress Staff uniform on Saturday,
                    embroidered
                    >full dress coat with stockings and shoes for the dance and then blue frock
                    >coat when the weather turned nasty next day. Perhaps this kind of variation
                    is
                    >considered too ' Napoleonic'.
                    >
                    >But then there were you with trews for the battle and kilt in the evening.
                    >Oooo too Napoleonic for words! ;-)
                    >
                    >
                    >Cheers
                    >
                    >Tim
                    >
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